Two first rounders & I'm nervous

[remboy]

Recruiting is like Russian roulette. It's a bit like predicting which kids in your year 12 class are going to be a success in life. So many confounding variables. Some deliver, some are surprise failures and some succeed against the odds. We've had our howlers, but so has every other club.

I think our bigger problem is development. Look at Geelong, the swines, Hawthorn etc. no early draft picks, but lots of premierships and finals. The one thing that seperates them from the rest is their ability to get the best out of those they bring in. We are also up against it in the resources stakes. It wasn't too long ago our recruiting budget was 70k per annum, which went mainly on JB's salary. When compared with the bigger clubs, it was a miracle we did as well as we did. We now have half a dozen on the crew and Wayne Hughes being paid shyteloads to find uncontracted guns. He'd better deliver this year!
.

Good post. I think we've actually drafted some good players in recent years. Quite a few have shown that they have the potential to be AFL players, some of them could be very good AFL players. For whatever reason, they haven't fulfilled their potential on a regular basis. Hopefully, there is still time for them to come good, as we are now seeing with the likes of Billings and Sinclair.

[saintsRrising]

Recruiting is like Russian roulette. It's a bit like predicting which kids in your year 12 class are going to be a success in life. So many confounding variables. Some deliver, some are surprise failures and some succeed against the odds. We've had our howlers, but so has every other club.

I think our bigger problem is development. Look at Geelong, the swines, Hawthorn etc. no early draft picks, but lots of premierships and finals. The one thing that seperates them from the rest is their ability to get the best out of those they bring in. We are also up against it in the resources stakes. It wasn't too long ago our recruiting budget was 70k per annum, which went mainly on JB's salary. When compared with the bigger clubs, it was a miracle we did as well as we did. We now have half a dozen on the crew and Wayne Hughes being paid shyteloads to find uncontracted guns. He'd better deliver this year!

Clever trading and salary cap management (take abow Ameet)and bringing in recycled players has masked our poor drafting record. Given our strong drafting position since 2012, it is a real concern. We have a recruiting manager who's hopelessly unqualified for the task. His CV consists of holding the coach's clipboard for 20 years. RL found him out in a big way. He's a nice bloke, apparently, but that's his only qualification for the job. He has a former work experience kid as his 2IC, and a collection of others who have watched lots of footy, which makes them as qualified as most of us on this forum.

Effective recruiting is the lifeblood of any organisation. We are way behind the leaders such as Adelaide, Geelong, WCE etc. More money is not the whole answer. Finding the best people is. The ultimate trick in great recruiting is finding the right people to do the job. On the available evidence, we are way behind. I throw up Melbourne and Carlton as past recruiting jokes, who've got their acts together. He's had six years. That's enough.

This pretty well sums things up.

If not for some good acquisitions mainly on the cheap, or for free, from other clubs by way of trade or FA we would be in diabolical shape right now. However in the main these types of players only get you so far in a rebuild and gaining more such players now will not take us any further up the ladder as we will only be exchanging one reasonable player in our 22 now for another. What will only make a real difference now is out and out cream. We need stars to take up spots from average players.

This coming draft period will probably make or break the current St Kilda rebuild. If we fail to land some real quality, whether kids or players like Kelly, then clubs like the Blues will go past us. Even the Dons have used their drug cheating episode to their advantage by picking up some quality youngsters.


Also speaking of the rebuild strategically the club has gone about it all wrong with the type of players gained. It should always have been gain mids, mids, and more mids first and then worry about the other positions.

The amount of small forwards that we have picked up is ridiculous when there should only be one such player in your team (ignoring players like Billings who are more HF/mids).

And with rucks. Get these last, and get them at the right age. This is what virtually every premiership team has done for many years now. Picking them young is just crazy as they are the most unpredictable of player types and when you look at the good rucks in their prime they are spread right acroos the draft order and rookies too. Using first and even second round picks on youngish ruckmen is folly.

[remboy]

If not for some good acquisitions mainly on the cheap, or for free, from other clubs by way of trade or FA we would be in diabolical shape right now. However in the main these types of players only get you so far in a rebuild and gaining more such players now will not take us any further up the ladder as we will only be exchanging one reasonable player in our 22 now for another. What will only make a real difference now is out and out cream. We need stars to take up spots from average players.

This coming draft period will probably make or break the current St Kilda rebuild. If we fail to land some real quality, whether kids or players like Kelly, then clubs like the Blues will go past us. Even the Dons have used their drug cheating episode to their advantage by picking up some quality youngsters.


Also speaking of the rebuild strategically the club has gone about it all wrong with the type of players gained. It should always have been gain mids, mids, and more mids first and then worry about the other positions.

The amount of small forwards that we have picked up is ridiculous when there should only be one such player in your team (ignoring players like Billings who are more HF/mids).

And with rucks. Get these last, and get them at the right age. This is what virtually every premiership team has done for many years now. Picking them young is just crazy as they are the most unpredictable of player types and when you look at the good rucks in their prime they are spread right acroos the draft order and rookies too. Using first and even second round picks on youngish ruckmen is folly.

You make some really good points. We desperately need some elite talent through the midfield. I feel that Jack Steven is our only elite midfielder Seb is very good but not at the same level). We need a couple more to take the pressure off Steven. Guys like Koby Stevens and Jack Steele are handy and add depth but we need more. If either Kelly or Martin nominate StKilda we should do everything within our power to get them. They are the players that will make us better.
We've seen how much difference two key defenders has made to our backline. I feel adding two elite mids woukd do the same to our midfield.

[carn_sainter]

If not for some good acquisitions mainly on the cheap, or for free, from other clubs by way of trade or FA we would be in diabolical shape right now. However in the main these types of players only get you so far in a rebuild and gaining more such players now will not take us any further up the ladder as we will only be exchanging one reasonable player in our 22 now for another. What will only make a real difference now is out and out cream. We need stars to take up spots from average players.

This coming draft period will probably make or break the current St Kilda rebuild. If we fail to land some real quality, whether kids or players like Kelly, then clubs like the Blues will go past us. Even the Dons have used their drug cheating episode to their advantage by picking up some quality youngsters.


Also speaking of the rebuild strategically the club has gone about it all wrong with the type of players gained. It should always have been gain mids, mids, and more mids first and then worry about the other positions.

The amount of small forwards that we have picked up is ridiculous when there should only be one such player in your team (ignoring players like Billings who are more HF/mids).

And with rucks. Get these last, and get them at the right age. This is what virtually every premiership team has done for many years now. Picking them young is just crazy as they are the most unpredictable of player types and when you look at the good rucks in their prime they are spread right acroos the draft order and rookies too. Using first and even second round picks on youngish ruckmen is folly.

You make some really good points. We desperately need some elite talent through the midfield. I feel that Jack Steven is our only elite midfielder Seb is very good but not at the same level). We need a couple more to take the pressure off Steven. Guys like Koby Stevens and Jack Steele are handy and add depth but we need more. If either Kelly or Martin nominate StKilda we should do everything within our power to get them. They are the players that will make us better.
We've seen how much difference two key defenders has made to our backline. I feel adding two elite mids woukd do the same to our midfield.

Good discussion in all this, but i feel compelled to add that Ross is better than Steven this season. If Ross ain't elite, Steven ain't either on form.

[SuperSaint]

The best thing about Ross is his uncomprimising, obsessive desire to improve himself. That's what makes him special. Natural talent is great to a certain extent but when you get a player that has that 'meet no end'. inspiring level of hard work and determination, then you know you have a beauty. We don't have enough of those types on the list. Harvey, Roo, Hayes and Burkey were the best I saw since the mid 90's. Ross is in that mould.

[saintsRrising]

Good discussion in all this, but i feel compelled to add that Ross is better than Steven this season. If Ross ain't elite, Steven ain't either on form.

I fully agree that Ross has taken a giant leap forwards this year. Up till the Gold Coast game ended his streak he had had 30 or more disposals for 9 games in a row. Now that is consistency at a high level.

However with Jack I believe that he has been heavily tagged this year, with a lot of effort also made to block his run. He has still posted good numbers but has been up and down a lot more than Ross with the negative play on him being a key reason.

Jack remains a player though that can cut up the opposition and also turn the flow of games. With another elite midfield player who can go also go on the burst I think you would see a renewed Jack.

[remboy]

Good discussion in all this, but i feel compelled to add that Ross is better than Steven this season. If Ross ain't elite, Steven ain't either on form.

I fully agree that Ross has taken a giant leap forwards this year. Up till the Gold Coast game ended his streak he had had 30 or more disposals for 9 games in a row. Now that is consistency at a high level.

However with Jack I believe that he has been heavily tagged this year, with a lot of effort also made to block his run. He has still posted good numbers but has been up and down a lot more than Ross with the negative play on him being a key reason.

Jack remains a player though that can cut up the opposition and also turn the flow of games. With another elite midfield player who can go also go on the burst I think you would see a renewed Jack.

I agree. Ross has become an excellent player, however, I don't feel he is as damaging as Steven. As a result, when Steven is limited our midfield doesn't seem as effective.

[The_President]

Good discussion in all this, but i feel compelled to add that Ross is better than Steven this season. If Ross ain't elite, Steven ain't either on form.

I fully agree that Ross has taken a giant leap forwards this year. Up till the Gold Coast game ended his streak he had had 30 or more disposals for 9 games in a row. Now that is consistency at a high level.

However with Jack I believe that he has been heavily tagged this year, with a lot of effort also made to block his run. He has still posted good numbers but has been up and down a lot more than Ross with the negative play on him being a key reason.

Jack remains a player though that can cut up the opposition and also turn the flow of games. With another elite midfield player who can go also go on the burst I think you would see a renewed Jack.

I agree. Ross has become an excellent player, however, I don't feel he is as damaging as Steven. As a result, when Steven is limited our midfield doesn't seem as effective.

That's because Steven gets the ball runs 20m before kicking it.

Ross gets the ball in close, stands still and everyone runs passed him.

Both brilliant mids, but very different. Teams need both types so we should count ourselves lucky in this regard.

[GeorgeYoung27]

I rarely post anymore but the OP is the sort of post that regularly pops up when the team is in a slump. It's supposedly about our drafting, yet somehow includes "trades" in Hickey and Longer and with no mention of Bruce, Roberton or Membrey. If it's about drafting how about including rookie picks like Sinclair, Weller, Geary and Marshall. Our drafting has been no better or worse than most other teams. We look at other teams successes and then compare each of our trades to a Parker pick, a Selwood pick, Bontempelli or whoever.

It's all so typical of football in the 21st century. We want instant results but we want them every week. It's like when every Rising Star nominee is announced and we look at our previous pick and someone posts how crap our recruiters are for missing them. Yet go back 2 years and look at the nominees like Lennon, Broomhead, Hartung and see where they are now (of the course the OP would now also include Lonie). Two months ago we were legends of the draft and now we're the sh!##est drafters in the league!

[carn_sainter]

Good discussion in all this, but i feel compelled to add that Ross is better than Steven this season. If Ross ain't elite, Steven ain't either on form.

I fully agree that Ross has taken a giant leap forwards this year. Up till the Gold Coast game ended his streak he had had 30 or more disposals for 9 games in a row. Now that is consistency at a high level.

However with Jack I believe that he has been heavily tagged this year, with a lot of effort also made to block his run. He has still posted good numbers but has been up and down a lot more than Ross with the negative play on him being a key reason.

Jack remains a player though that can cut up the opposition and also turn the flow of games. With another elite midfield player who can go also go on the burst I think you would see a renewed Jack.

I agree. Ross has become an excellent player, however, I don't feel he is as damaging as Steven. As a result, when Steven is limited our midfield doesn't seem as effective.

That's because Steven gets the ball runs 20m before kicking it.

Ross gets the ball in close, stands still and everyone runs passed him.

Both brilliant mids, but very different. Teams need both types so we should count ourselves lucky in this regard.

As much as I admire Steven's work rate - he is one of the hardest runners I've seen in a saints jumper, not far behind Harvey or Roo - he has not been damaging this season. In comparing him to Ross, Ross has been a far better playmaker, opening up the ground and the play for team mates far better. My main criticism on Steven this season is that he isn't hitting targets.

He is getting some severe treatment, and I don't question his input at all, but his output is not elite. He isn't accumulating like seasons past nor is he hurting the opposition much. Too often if he does get loose, he's missing targets by foot. Again, I'm not saying he is lazy or crap, but the output isn't there.

Ross on the other hand is like a great point guard in basketball who draws all the opposition to him and then kicks it out to find a team mate in space. Besides high marking, Seb Ross is in the top two or three in our team for pretty much every other skill in the game.

Foot skills, hand skills, tackling, vision, breaking tackles, drawing opposition, explosive speed, overall running capacity, poise, leadership...has kicked some great goals too, but not many I guess.

So far this season, Steven is still one of our best overall runners and explosive runners and he attracts the most attention from opposition, but that's about it. I am curious to see who has had our most score involvements this year...I would guess Ross, Billings, Roberton and Roo would have the most, but I don't think Steven would be too high actually.

[meher baba]

When reading these sorts of threads, I always chuckle a bit at the 20/20 accuracy in hindsight demonstrated by some posters. Let's definitely find the recruiter who didn't appreciate Parker and Newman and put them in the stocks and shower them with tomatoes. And the recruiters at all the other clubs who missed them as well...!

Yes, we blew some picks in recent years: probably a higher proportion than we did when the much-maligned Bevo had sole charge of things. But, nevertheless, we've built a pretty good list that could well take us into the finals, we have some good picks in next year's draft and a lot of money in the treasure chest to lure good players from other clubs. I reckon there'd be quite a few - perhaps a majority - of coaches and list managers around the AFL who would be happy to swap their positions with Richo and Elshaug.

Since the wheels fell off at the end of 2011, we have recruited a lot of players to the club who look to me like keepers for at least 3-4 more seasons, or beyond. In alphabetical order: Billings, Brown, Bruce, Carlisle, Dunstan, Gresham, Membrey, Newnes, Roberton, Ross, Sinclair, Steele, Stevens, and Webster. Plus quite a few more who might still make it: Acres, Freeman, Goddard, Hickey, Long, Lonie, Marshall, McCartin, McKenzie, Savage and Weller (and some might want to add Battle, Minchington, Rice, White and others).

The only two things that I think are really wrong with that list is that - with the exception of Billings and perhaps McCartin - it's lacking players with star quality. And - again with the exception of Billings and the possible exception of McCartin - it looks more like a list designed to keep the opponents bottled up than one which is going to regularly launch avalanches of goals.

But we've got draft picks and money in the bank that we can use to fix those problems. If we can start 2018 with a top-drawer creative midfielder and perhaps a proven forward target, they could lift the players listed above - plus whoever remains out of Steven, Armo, Roo, Joey and Gilbert - into the top 4 and possibly beyond. And Paddy might still come good (although I have to confess I'm not feeling super-optimistic about that prospect).

Anyway, leaving Paddy aside: you lot are all far too pessimistic. It just doesn't do anyone any good to trawl through the old drafts and mourn the fact that the guy we didn't pick at #42 has turned out much better than the bloke we took with our top ten pick. It's silly and pointless IMO.

[Linton Lodger]

The OP has missed a few, either to add weight to his argument or by oversight. Also, the 2011 draft, Pelchen's first year, was missed.

2011: S Ross; J Newnes; & J Webster

2012: D Roberton & L Pierce

2013: B Longer; J Bruce; M Weller; & J Holmes

2014: T Membrey

2015: J Sinclair

2016: K Stevens; N Brown; B Long; J Battle; & R Marshall

[borderbarry]

We traded in two mids last year, Steele for a future 2nd, and I am not sure what we paid for Stevens but we ended up with Bulldogs 4th. If we use our two firsts wisely we should do quite well.

[George27]

[quote="Waltzing St Kilda"]Yep ... we're in Michael Frost territory.

(For those too young to remember, Frost was a Footscray hack who for some reason we
picked up with our first pick in 1993 or so. Based pretty much on a whim. Because he'd played
a good game against us the previous year. "Had to get him before others did."
Ended up playing about two games for us.)[


That one good game Frost played was the 1992 First Semi at Waverley. From memory it was only part of a game. He came off the bench, kicked a couple and, to be fair, looked really good . My brother-in-law , a big Doggies fan, said it was the best half of footy he had ever played. Alas, it proved to be the equivalent of that game Rhys Stanley played for us against Freo about 4 years ago- a complete anomaly.

[White Winmar]

Yep ... we're in Michael Frost territory.

(For those too young to remember, Frost was a Footscray hack who for some reason we
picked up with our first pick in 1993 or so. Based pretty much on a whim. Because he'd played
a good game against us the previous year. "Had to get him before others did."
Ended up playing about two games for us.)[


That one good game Frost played was the 1992 First Semi at Waverley. From memory it was only part of a game. He came off the bench, kicked a couple and, to be fair, looked really good . My brother-in-law , a big Doggies fan, said it was the best half of footy he had ever played. Alas, it proved to be the equivalent of that game Rhys Stanley played for us against Freo about 4 years ago- a complete anomaly.

Tagged Nicky Winmar out of the game in the '92 semi final. Bevo has always blamed Cat Colling for that one! Fraser Gehrig was in that draft, and we got him in the end. Just seven years late! On the down side, might have cost us the 1997 flag.

[White Winmar]

Yep ... we're in Michael Frost territory.

(For those too young to remember, Frost was a Footscray hack who for some reason we
picked up with our first pick in 1993 or so. Based pretty much on a whim. Because he'd played
a good game against us the previous year. "Had to get him before others did."
Ended up playing about two games for us.)[


That one good game Frost played was the 1992 First Semi at Waverley. From memory it was only part of a game. He came off the bench, kicked a couple and, to be fair, looked really good . My brother-in-law , a big Doggies fan, said it was the best half of footy he had ever played. Alas, it proved to be the equivalent of that game Rhys Stanley played for us against Freo about 4 years ago- a complete anomaly.

Tagged Nicky Winmar out of the game in the '92 semi final. Bevo has always blamed Cat Colling for that one! Fraser Gehrig was in that draft, and we got him in the end. Just seven years late! On the down side, might have cost us the 1997 flag.

[White Winmar]

*nicky had a cracked collarbone for most of that game.

[WellardSaint]

*nicky had a cracked collarbone for most of that game.

welcome back WW
at the risk of going off on a tangent...
The week prior to the 92 Prelim, was our win against the Filth
I had been sitting with 3 sainters mates, with 3 toothless guys (strangers) on my left.
Halfway thru final qtr, when we were 20+ points ahead, the filth fellas turned to me, shook my hand, said "hope you guys go all the way to GF"
and they headed off to beat the traffic.
Then the Pies staged a minor comeback

Our game against Doggies at Arctic Park shall never be forgotten. I was sitting amongst Dogs fans (only tickets I could get)
on our left HFF (first qtr)
The damned strong wind was against us.
Qtr time, I turned to my mate and said "We've got the wind now!" and blow me down, the flamin wind turned 180 degrees! against us AGAIN
I saw several drop punts out of defence about 40m from me, slow and hang in the air before dropping almost vertically, like something in the Matrix movies
Is the passage of time playing tricks with the old memory?
I swear black and blue that happened

(it reminded me of growing up in a gusty bayside suburb where kicking the footy in the park, we'd count 5 kicks each and swap ends;
we never did drop punts, we had to do torps to get any distance against the wind)

I recall Cuz going up for a screamer, on my HFF, crashed down from a height. Busted collarbone
A rumour at the time was that the club didn't organise a journey to hospital for him, his wife had to do it.
The following year he cracked it with the club and went into hiding in Ballarat; that week we played the Tigers at the G
a game we lost, rumour was that the collarbone issue might have been a contributing factor to his dissatisfaction.

[WellardSaint]

that game at the G had one hilarious incident, that would be overturned these days not just on video but central umps.

I was sitting high up right behind the goals
Plugger and a Tiger were running at a loose ball towards goal square like 2 bulls at Pamplona
Goal Ump ran to the left without looking at the 2 monsters, to get out of the way,
Plugger slammed ball into a goal post from 5m out and ball rebounded sideways.
Ump assumed goal due to proximity.
Neither central umps nor boundary umps called him on it.
Tigers fans gave him a horrible time.
we lost anyways

[BackFromUSA]

Dusty + Rocky + Pick 3 on a skilled running mid will do me. Elevate Marshall.

[Impatient Sainter]

Geelong are another team who seem to turn most of their selections into players. In 2105 after they sold the farm to get Paddy Dangerfield they then go to the draft and get Sam Menangola and Wylie Buzza in the 60's. Menangola is an accomplished mature aged midfielder and Buzza played tonight and looked great. He was recuited at 198cm's (forward/ruckman) and moves really well and has now kicked as many goals in his first game as our 2014 No.1 pick has kicked in any of his games.

If only we had the off field resources of some of these other clubs!

[Waltzing St Kilda]

*nicky had a cracked collarbone for most of that game.

welcome back WW
at the risk of going off on a tangent...
The week prior to the 92 Prelim, was our win against the Filth
I had been sitting with 3 sainters mates, with 3 toothless guys (strangers) on my left.
Halfway thru final qtr, when we were 20+ points ahead, the filth fellas turned to me, shook my hand, said "hope you guys go all the way to GF"
and they headed off to beat the traffic.
Then the Pies staged a minor comeback

Our game against Doggies at Arctic Park shall never be forgotten. I was sitting amongst Dogs fans (only tickets I could get)
on our left HFF (first qtr)
The damned strong wind was against us.
Qtr time, I turned to my mate and said "We've got the wind now!" and blow me down, the flamin wind turned 180 degrees! against us AGAIN
I saw several drop punts out of defence about 40m from me, slow and hang in the air before dropping almost vertically, like something in the Matrix movies
Is the passage of time playing tricks with the old memory?
I swear black and blue that happened

(it reminded me of growing up in a gusty bayside suburb where kicking the footy in the park, we'd count 5 kicks each and swap ends;
we never did drop punts, we had to do torps to get any distance against the wind)

I recall Cuz going up for a screamer, on my HFF, crashed down from a height. Busted collarbone
A rumour at the time was that the club didn't organise a journey to hospital for him, his wife had to do it.
The following year he cracked it with the club and went into hiding in Ballarat; that week we played the Tigers at the G
a game we lost, rumour was that the collarbone issue might have been a contributing factor to his dissatisfaction.

Hey Wellard, either your memory or mine is playing tricks.

I reckon Plugger took a screamer during that Footscray final and Winmar busted his collarbone when
crunched between two Dog opponents.

Anyone else?

[ace]

I believe our recruiters are as good as most other teams.

If your recruiters are only as good as most other teams they are "average" at best.
Average teams never win premierships.
Premierships need outstanding recruitment and outstanding coaching.
Richardson may be better than most but if anyone says our recruitment is average then without the rose coloured glasses they must be failures.

[jonesy]

*nicky had a cracked collarbone for most of that game.

welcome back WW
at the risk of going off on a tangent...
The week prior to the 92 Prelim, was our win against the Filth
I had been sitting with 3 sainters mates, with 3 toothless guys (strangers) on my left.
Halfway thru final qtr, when we were 20+ points ahead, the filth fellas turned to me, shook my hand, said "hope you guys go all the way to GF"
and they headed off to beat the traffic.
Then the Pies staged a minor comeback

Our game against Doggies at Arctic Park shall never be forgotten. I was sitting amongst Dogs fans (only tickets I could get)
on our left HFF (first qtr)
The damned strong wind was against us.
Qtr time, I turned to my mate and said "We've got the wind now!" and blow me down, the flamin wind turned 180 degrees! against us AGAIN
I saw several drop punts out of defence about 40m from me, slow and hang in the air before dropping almost vertically, like something in the Matrix movies
Is the passage of time playing tricks with the old memory?
I swear black and blue that happened

(it reminded me of growing up in a gusty bayside suburb where kicking the footy in the park, we'd count 5 kicks each and swap ends;
we never did drop punts, we had to do torps to get any distance against the wind)

I recall Cuz going up for a screamer, on my HFF, crashed down from a height. Busted collarbone
A rumour at the time was that the club didn't organise a journey to hospital for him, his wife had to do it.
The following year he cracked it with the club and went into hiding in Ballarat; that week we played the Tigers at the G
a game we lost, rumour was that the collarbone issue might have been a contributing factor to his dissatisfaction.

Hey Wellard, either your memory or mine is playing tricks.

I reckon Plugger took a screamer during that Footscray final and Winmar busted his collarbone when
crunched between two Dog opponents.

Anyone else?

Yep correct. Also the wind never swung at quarter time, we just didn't turn up in the second quarter and got pulverised. Probably the worst quarter ever played with the wind in the history of Waverley

A couple of years later we played Melbourne out there. They had an absolute gale northerly in the 1st, bang on quarter time the south westerly screamer hit, they kicked with a 5-6 goal for both quarters the first half. Half time the rain came down. Probably the most unjust game of football of all time

[suss]

I was 16 at the time and sitting right behind Lockett when he took that hanger. Don't know who was more worse for wear, Lockett or the ground beneath him.

I remember it behind one occasion where we were favourites to win a final and completely stunk it up.


And then I had to get the bus home. Worst bus ride ever.