No improvement?

[Moods]

FYI moods Seb Ross is averaging 30.1 possessions this year not mid 20 by any stretch. He is easily an A- mid this year

Is he? Wasn't aware he was that high. My mid 20's was a guess. Either way he has been very good I agree. Still not elite but very good. Probably just outside the AA squad, and not even in consideration for the team as yet. Jack Steven should make AA squad of 50 odd names. Won't make the team. I personally would rate both at A- (which is still a very high rating)

[Impatient Sainter]

Our last 2 games would win the award for the most boring games of AFL for there rounds. Nothing to get excited about yet. I used to enjoy watching Fox Footy on a Monday night. I dont watch it any more because Richo with his robotic demeanour and answers annoys the sh.t out of me. Just about sums up the Saints season - robotic.

They say teams generally emulate a coaches personality which in our case is totally correct - boring!

[WellardSaint]

FYI moods Seb Ross is averaging 30.1 possessions this year not mid 20 by any stretch. He is easily an A- mid this year

Is he? Wasn't aware he was that high. My mid 20's was a guess. Either way he has been very good I agree. Still not elite but very good. Probably just outside the AA squad, and not even in consideration for the team as yet. Jack Steven should make AA squad of 50 odd names. Won't make the team. I personally would rate both at A- (which is still a very high rating)

9 games out of 13, he's had over 30 touches
39 vs Crows, 37 vs Swines
16 vs Dees, 23 vs Lions, 22 vs godless Suns,

[iwantmeseats]

I agree with average.
Sooooo average. Dictionary equals St.Kilda FC 2017.
Painfully going nowhere presently.

[satchmo]

Sounds like we suffered a season ending victory.

[thejiggingsaint]

Sounds like it, Satch! I wonder just how many of us would have been THRILLED to "win ugly" in the 2009 GF?

[Moods]

Sounds like it, Satch! I wonder just how many of us would have been THRILLED to "win ugly" in the 2009 GF?

How many were thrilled at the way we entered that finals series? A really ugly win over the lowly Dees and 3 or 4 poor games (including 2 losses) before that. Unfortunately we didn't enter that finals series in great form and despite being clearly the best team all year, we didn't win the GF. As opposed to the cats who entered the finals series in great form, carried it into the finals and managed to enter the GF as favourite and go on and win it.

If you look at our form objectively, we have been soundly beaten, some would say thrashed, by teams higher up on the ladder than us. We have barely been competitive against the Swans (who are coming good, but still other teams are managing to compete with them) the Bulldogs (who many on here say are over rated and are currently below us on the ladder) and the Crows (who the Dees and the hawks have both beaten at their home deck) We then play far better but fall asleep in the last quarter against a rebuilding North, and struggle for most of the day against a GCS team with about 6 of their starting 18 out including their best player.

The only games this year that everyone would say unanimously were great wins was against GWS and the Hawks. Our wins have come against teams that are struggling at the time we play them and hawks aside we've struggled to put them away, and our losses have been quite heavy against more fancied teams (WC eagles aside). I have been bitterly disappointed at the way we've played in the last 6 or so games, To suggest that we've improved would mean the spokesperson was wearing rose coloured glasses. At the moment I doubt anyone in the footy world would say the saints have improved on last year.

If we can win ugly against say Port Adelaide in Adelaide that's a completely different story to winning ugly against a depleted GCS in Melbourne.

[thejiggingsaint]

So being in the eight (as opposed to our position of 12th this time last season) is now seen as "failure"? Rose coloured glasses? NO! Just looking at the FACTS!

[IluvHarvey]

I think the issue is that the improvements haven't been as big as many on here expected. And in true SS form things go from 0 - 100 in 5 seconds.

[Moods]

So being in the eight (as opposed to our position of 12th this time last season) is now seen as "failure"? Rose coloured glasses? NO! Just looking at the FACTS!

I guess it's how you look at it. Stats can help or hinder you make almost any argument. They are a useful tool but shouldn't be treated as the only thing to measure yourself by - particularly in a subjective game such as footy (or almost any team sport) Athletics, swimming, anything that is timed stats rule everything. In footy we all like to refer to them, me included, but they can be misleading. For instance, before guaging one year from the other at similar stages you'd need to look at teams played on the ladder for each respective season.

I reckon if we took a poll (for which I'm not proposing we do) you'd find above 80% of Saints ppl don't think we've improved and 90% of general supporters feel likewise.

[saynta]

More rubbish on this thread. We are heaps better in many areas than we were last year:
W
Defence, thanks to the arrival of Carlisle and Brown; Roberton and Webster continuing to improve; Geary also improving, with much better judgement around his kicking, and possibly even some slight skill improvement (which is highly unusual for a player of his age)

Midfield/outside: Ross and Billings have become elite, Sinclair has made a quantum leap, Stevens has been a terrific acquisition, Steele and Acres have shown glimpses, Dunstan might still make it, Steven continues to be elite, and Gresham shows flashes of brilliance but needs to work harder on his game. And Armo might come back and strengthen this area further.

Forward line: alas, not much improvement here. Riewoldt and Membrey still look pretty good, but desperately need a third musketeer to provide a central target. Bruce's form has been up and down. Lonie has shown glimpses in the last two games.

Ruck: Billy is as bad as Hickey, but in different ways.

We're not as far off as many of you seem to think. If we can recruit a Kelly or a Martin that would be great. Even if we can't do this, Acres and Billings could potentially develop into serious creative forces in our future midfield.

I'm more bothered about our forward line. Last night, Riewoldt was the only forward player who was seriously worrying the GC defence. Membrey and Bruce are potentially long-term players for us, but we need a dangerous target man. Maybe Paddy can still become this, but - if I were in charge of our recruiting - I'd be trying to snare another quality forward (preferably a ruck-forward) even before looking at a Kelly or a Martin.

I agree that our defence is better this year. Carlisle and Brown have definitely improved us in this area. I agree with all your comments re defence actually. That's not our problem.

Re our mids. What do you call elite? I'd argue no-one in our team is elite. We have some very good AFL footballers, and Ross is one of those. Billings has been up and down all year. At his best he has a higher ceiling than anyone in the team. His last 7-8 games have been very encouraging. Ross has definitely improved. He seems stronger and fitter and his ball use is far better. He consistently wins possessions in the mid 20's and is more effective with those possessions. Steven is not elite in my opinion, not compared to the genuine elite mids in the comp. This is our problem. He's our best mid and probably our best player. The opposition know it and have started to put a lot of work into him to limit his effectiveness. His breakaway speed from packs sets up the game, but his kicking once he breaks away is inconsistent at best. He needs help in there and I'm certainly not laying the blame at his feet. Rarely does a midfield function on the back of one gun mid - which is why G. Ablett has been incredible at the GC. Ross and Steven have been very good this year, with Steven's effectiveness blunted recently.

We needed more improvement from the likes of Acres this year. We haven't seen it enough tbh. I personally believe that the inclusion of Steele, Stevens and Dunstan hasn't changed our midfield much at all. I was always concerned that Steele didn't kick the ball enough. It's ok to feed the ball out, but that's only really damaging if it hit a runner at speed. Little dinky handpasses in close to a player in nearly as much pressure isn't that great. Stevens is tough and lays tackles, but he doesn't influence games or change the tempo of a game. His disposal is only average. Dunstan definitely hasn't improved and we have given him a lot of chances. Armo is a good player but who knows when he'll return and in what state. We are crying out for quality mids, not just more mids like what we recruited this year.

Our rucking stocks have gone backwards a country mile. Hickey was just below the best rucks in the league last year. Instead he languishes in the reserves and he looked pathetic pre-season. Now he's injured. Longer is not AFL standard. This hardly helps our mid field or our fwd line.

Our fwd line has also gone backwards. Roo is another year older. He's still good enough to play and be effective but it's an indictment on the rest of the team that he still remains our most viable target up forward - by a long way. Gresham does some clever things but he is no where near as clean as he promised to be earlier in his career. Sinclair has improved but in terms of quality small fwds he's still only average. Wellar has gone backwards - can't kick and his strong overhead marking is non existent. His defensive work is ok but nothing sensational for a defensive fwd. Bruce has had a poor year, but looks like the penny may have dropped recently. I had high hopes for Membery but feel as though he will only ever be a 3rd tall and he's still nothing like say a Tom Lynch at Crows. We have no real structure coming into the fwd line. We're either hopelessly outnumbered or we bomb it to the predictable spot top of the goal square as if we have Lockett, Carey and Simon Madden all competing for the ball.

In summary - our defence is coming along fine. Our mids are one paced apart from Steven and don't give us anything like the run we need at this level to get the ball into space. Our skills also let us down as much as our lack of run. Dunstan, Stevens, Steele and even Gresham, Sinclair etc don;t have the poise or xeecution of skills to give our average fwd line the delivery they need to kick winning scores against good opposition.

FYI moods Seb Ross is averaging 30.1 possessions this year not mid 20 by any stretch. He is easily an A- mid this year

Agree with you there.

[WellardSaint]

So being in the eight (as opposed to our position of 12th this time last season) is now seen as "failure"? Rose coloured glasses? NO! Just looking at the FACTS!

to assess this season for signs of improvement,
we need to remember the WCE game last year- 105 pts
Crows- 88 points

Then remove the Hawks win this year, because they were shyte at the time
The GWS was a statement win just like the win against the Cats last year that we had to win

Now, we've brought in Koby+Steele to help our midfield (and cover unexpected loss of Armo)
NJB and Jake stiffen up the back 6, have done so...

There are other games we should have won, such as WCE, Demons, and we should have monstered Carlton, Norf and GC

So based on these rambling musings,
I am suggesting that it's bloody hard to judge an improvement because
opponents have changed, our personnel have changed.

In closing:
Our defence is better. Our freakin skills are worse.
Baroose and Skunk have gone backwards while Billings and Ross have climbed high

Our game plan or discipline is up and down like a yo-yo
so we have improved in some areas but actually overall, nowhere near as good as we should be

It's not good enough and not enough has been done about it by the club.

[Moods]

So being in the eight (as opposed to our position of 12th this time last season) is now seen as "failure"? Rose coloured glasses? NO! Just looking at the FACTS!

to assess this season for signs of improvement,
we need to remember the WCE game last year- 105 pts
Crows- 88 points

Then remove the Hawks win this year, because they were shyte at the time
The GWS was a statement win just like the win against the Cats last year that we had to win

Now, we've brought in Koby+Steele to help our midfield (and cover unexpected loss of Armo)
NJB and Jake stiffen up the back 6, have done so...

There are other games we should have won, such as WCE, Demons, and we should have monstered Carlton, Norf and GC

So based on these rambling musings,
I am suggesting that it's bloody hard to judge an improvement because
opponents have changed, our personnel have changed.

In closing:
Our defence is better. Our freakin skills are worse.
Baroose and Skunk have gone backwards while Billings and Ross have climbed high

Our game plan or discipline is up and down like a yo-yo
so we have improved in some areas but actually overall, nowhere near as good as we should be

It's not good enough and not enough has been done about it by the club.

Fair assessment

[lewdogs]

Have we improved this year? Yes and by some margin.

Our defence is about 10 times better.

Our midfield is about 5 times better.

Our forwards can't kick straight but they will be ok. But yeah I guess they are slightly worse than last year overall.

If our side of this year faced our side last year, this year would win by about 5 goals.

We are on the right track.

[Zed]

I haven't particularly enjoyed watching our last 2 wins - they have both been frustrating error filled performances. Yes an error filled win is better than an error filled loss, but I guess the disappointing aspect is that we all know that kind of footy just isn't going to take us back into serious contention, and the guys we picked with our first round draft picks in recent years just haven't developed into the players we needed them to become.