Comment from Jaxons please

[meher baba]

Well WW, if Paddy is as bad as you say he is, it's surely good news that other clubs are looking at him. We might get a worthwhile trade for him.

As I have said, you and many other posters are too hung up on the #1 draft pick thing. Once the pick is used, it's gone forever and the draftee is just another player on the list: to be assessed on the same basis as all the rest. If he doesn't suit us, and someone else takes him and gives us something for him, I for one won't shed a tear.

For goodness sake give the kid a go -he is 21 and a key position player.

You misread my comment: my opening point to WW was "if Paddy is as bad as you say he is...". If you search my other comments you will find that I personally think Paddy is going ok.

[meher baba]

Not hung up, MB. Just a terrible waste. Again. Remember, I was part of the Judd fiasco that no doubt cost us a flag. Maybe two. You don't forget that s*** too easily. I'm afraid we've done it again.

If you seriously believe not picking Judd cost us a flag, then I think again you are far too hung up - like many on here - about the draft process.

We recruited a terrific haul of players to the club in the 1999 to 2002 period. We certainly had a good enough list to win a flag: one unlucky bounce of the ball in 2004 cost us a GF spot and another in 2010 cost us a premiership.

If you could go back in a time machine and have the club use our first pick on Judd rather than Ball, who knows what would have happened. Ball was a strong leader of the player group as it developed: would Judd have been as good? If we had had Judd and Riewoldt and Goddard and Dal Santo on our playing list by about 2006-2007, we'd have had tremendous salary cap pressure and might have had to let others go and ended up with a weaker overall team. Would Judd have been happy playing under Lyon's style of play or would he have wanted to walk in 2008 or so?

[White Winmar]

All good points MB, but Bevo and I often wondered what would have happened if the original plan had come off. Ball at 2, WC take Sampi at 3, Shockers take Polak at 4 and we take Judd at 5. Dal Santo at 13, Maguire and Montagna with later picks. Premiership in the making, just add water. I know things may have gone wrong, but I doubt it. Ball, Judd and Dal Santo in the midfield. A flag in 2004-2005 was there or the taking.

When you add Goddard, Roo, Kosi and all the other guns we traded in during 2000-5, it's amazing we didn't win one, Judd or no Judd. He would've been the cherry on top of a very sweet cake. Yes, MB, you're right, I'm still not over it. Not our fault really, just the way it rolls sometimes. It's not as though we missed the Juddster. We were huge fans. Buttersssss was particularly apoplectic when we missed him, but it's all history now.

FWIW, the others that hurt in my time were Jack Riewoldt instead of Armo, Cyril Rioli instead of Big Boy McEvoy, and my ultimate nightmare, being over ruled on Jack Darling in favour of Jamie Cripps. Good grief, the wet toast ended up with both of them in the end. I'm not over any of them, and wonder to this day what might have been. Sliding doors and all that. Should I consult a psychiatrist?

[lewdogs]

All good points MB, but Bevo and I often wondered what would have happened if the original plan had come off. Ball at 2, WC take Sampi at 3, Shockers take Polak at 4 and we take Judd at 5. Dal Santo at 13, Maguire and Montagna with later picks. Premiership in the making, just add water. I know things may have gone wrong, but I doubt it. Ball, Judd and Dal Santo in the midfield. A flag in 2004-2005 was there or the taking.

When you add Goddard, Roo, Kosi and all the other guns we traded in during 2000-5, it's amazing we didn't win one, Judd or no Judd. He would've been the cherry on top of a very sweet cake. Yes, MB, you're right, I'm still not over it. Not our fault really, just the way it rolls sometimes. It's not as though we missed the Juddster. We were huge fans. Buttersssss was particularly apoplectic when we missed him, but it's all history now.

FWIW, the others that hurt in my time were Jack Riewoldt instead of Armo, Cyril Rioli instead of Big Boy McEvoy, and my ultimate nightmare, being over ruled on Jack Darling in favour of Jamie Cripps. Good grief, the wet toast ended up with both of them in the end. I'm not over any of them, and wonder to this day what might have been. Sliding doors and all that. Should I consult a psychiatrist?

Hang on, so you worked for the club and told them to go with all of those picks?? Probably said Bont over Billings too I'm guessing as you're obviously a recruiting genius. Surprised you have the time to post so much on here; should be working at an AFL club still!

Jeez mate you're a legend I can see it now. Might have to print off your 5000-odd posts of misery and get deep into how crap the club is, reminisce on how we'd have a three-peat if the club had listened to you, think about how Yabby would be potting the entire administration from coach down from the grave because he didn't suffer positivity. Sounds like a good time.

[Johnny Member]

Should I consult a psychiatrist?

Yes.

Although you might need a double booking as the 'could haves/should haves' of drafts pale into insignificance for me compared to the horror runs of injury in 05 and 06.

I'm still not over 05.


The guys we played without in the prelim, plus the guys that were hurt during that game - on top of the perfect run of injury that Sydney had still burns.

[supersaints]

I honestly think you should, not being rude ...nothing personal, Your threads are usually somewhat balanced even if controversial .. The sky won't fall in, there's more to life ... go and give someone a hug.
Like you I've been through a lot of angst with the Saints over 40 years... We've been a lot, lot worse you would remember.

Like others have said If several other clubs are snooping around then shurely all their recruiting staff cant be idiots.??. He was touted as the number one draft pick for a reason of concesus , not just because Trout called out his name.

It's possible he may not make it, but I think he still will be a good chance .. he's a 21 Key position a very valuable commodity. Ladder position isn't as reflective as in the past, it's so even that's why we went from 6th to 12th in three weeks.

And you dont really expect Jaxons to reply, do you??
He's better than that and you are to

[Darth Vader]

WW, I have know idea if Trout is any good or not, but I hear he has a fraction of the resources of the bigger clubs. Do you know if this is true? Not making excuses for him but very annoying if he just doesn't have the team to get to junior games round the country.

[CURLY]

I know for a fact that McCartin has been left out with a slight knee injury. I also know as fact the club and players rate McCartin highly.

[HarryM]

Just noted Jake Niall said on Fox Footy, "that the management of a number of clubs are circling Paddy, despite the saints being happy with him." The speculation continues. Do you really think the club would have confected and stage managed a doorstop interview with that slimeball Hutchy three weeks ago, if there is nothing in it? He's unhappy, my sources tell me. He's been managed, read dropped for this week.

The club can't admit its internal view that it is playing one short with him in the team. Given his inability to run and play the team game. We should cut our losses and trade him while we can. I don't like what I'm being told. It's not as though he was a speculative pick in the 50's and worth a punt. He's a number one pick for ffs! in his third season and has played fewer than half the games he's been available for. Averages a goal a game. The figures don't lie. Compare him to a contemporary of his, Jesse Hogan. Need I say more. Look at Weitering. Remember Kosi and Roo. Rising stars. He can't even get a nomination. McGrath from Essendon has played every game in his first year and is ready to move from defence to the midfield. Our man can play one position, and not very well with no impact at that. After three years!

Elshaug should be sacked on the strength of this alone, without considering his record for bringing in failed talent. His track record is starting to stink. The most unqualified man to hold such a crucial role, ever. Typical amateur hour at our club. Ross, Billings, Acres and Newnes are his only successes. The rest of his picks over his five years in the chair show about a 20% success rate. Appalling, especially as we've had early picks. Compare his record to the top clubs. A nice guy, apparently, which his only qualification. As for the other numpties he's got on board to help out, I doubt other clubs will come a poaching.

So Jaxons, another report about Paddy. Are you still in denial that something's wrong? If you are an ITK and some people on here think you are Nathan Burke, I fear for the future of our footy club, as I did when that waste of space Westaway was in charge. You're not Nathan Burke, are you? If you are, you're just insulting our intelligence by feeding us the bulls*** party line. In any event, you shouldn't be on here if you are.

Go back and re-read your long and insightful post about the "The Pelican Legacy" where you typed pages on why Chris was all to blame for not steering us to the Golden Challis while bagging him all the way - and telling us all how Trout and his Recruiting Department were genius's and we were at last on our road to glory.

Hypocrite comes to mind, bignoting yourself comes as well, and its another look at me, look at me, drama post with no substance.

Makes me wonder if you're such a legend at picking at what we always do wrong, why your not in charge of the place.

I told you way back then that Trout was a dope and IMO he shouldn't be in charge of a School Tuck shop, but you always knew best.

[bigcarl]

I know for a fact that McCartin has been left out with a slight knee injury. I also know as fact the club and players rate McCartin highly.

Would a niggle like that have kept him out were Riewoldt not available? That's the question.

[takeaway]

When we had a strong following in Tassie, and had brought over Baldock and Stewart, why didn't we get Hudson as well? Probably would have won at least one more.

My point is every club has its draft/recruiting wins and losses, and St Kilda is no different, imo particularly recent recruiting has been very good.

As stated earlier we had the teams to win probably 2 more flags since '97, but injuries and bad luck played a major role, not poor recruiting.

We have a good core of players now, just need a few more over the next couple of years, and keep players like McCartin, Billing and Acres and the 2020/21 plan will be a real chance

[CURLY]

I know for a fact that McCartin has been left out with a slight knee injury. I also know as fact the club and players rate McCartin highly.

Would a niggle like that have kept him out were Riewoldt not available? That's the question.

He didn't get through training so I suggest not but then again Roo has more runs on the board and would probably be allowed to make that call on himself. Remember a couple of blokes Ball and Kosi the way they were managed at Paddys age.

[meher baba]

Premiership in the making, just add water. I know things may have gone wrong, but I doubt it. Ball, Judd and Dal Santo in the midfield. A flag in 2004-2005 was there for the taking.

Again, I think you are too focused on the recruiting of stars to the exclusion of other factors (understandable if you were once a club recruiter). Look at the list WCE ended up with: Judd, Kerr, Cousins, Cox, Glass, Wirrpanda, etc. Fabulous list, but not good enough to win the flag in 2005 and were seriously lucky to scrape across the line against the Swans in 2006. The problem the Eagles had was that their forward line wasn't good enough to turn strong defence and midfield dominance into points on the scoreboard.

Our biggest problem back in 2004-05 was in the ruck, and then - having fixed that to some extent, but having lost Gehrig and Hamill - our biggest problem in 2009-10 was in the forward line, as the "kick it to Roo" tendency took hold. Judd wouldn't have fixed any of those problems.

We were more than usually unlucky with how we went with the list Bevo and you and others pulled together in the 1999-2003 period. In 2004, we really weren't quite ready, but we still would have made the GF except for the disruption by fans in the first quarter against PA and the unlucky bounce of the ball in the final minutes. In 2005 we had a shocking year with injuries: Riewoldt out for much of the season and then, just as he came back, Kosi and others going out in that dreadful game against Freo, and then more crucial players going out before or during the PF. In 2006, we lost Hayes in the middle of the year, Kosi to an on-field criminal assault, and had a range of other problems, including the AFL taking away 2 points which bumped us out of the top 4. Blame all these things on GT if you want, but in my view his removal in 2006 largely meant that we trod water for two more seasons during which we might have been a flag contender. But Lyon turned out to have the goods and in 2009 our luck turned in a PF and we were somewhat undeserving winners over the Dogs. We then blew it in the GF with our kicking in front of goals (because we had lost some of our talent there). In 2010 we more or less sailed through to the GF, looked like really good things, and then found the Pies much tougher opponents than we thought. But we fought back and were just plain unlucky again with the bounce of the ball.

I really can't see Judd playing a crucial role in that story. If you want to look at "what ifs", I reckon the criminal assault on Kosi and the career-ending injuries to Fergus Watts took away our potential long-term solutions to the "kick it to Roo" problem, and this was reflected in our persistent inability to break free of opponents on the scoreboard in key games in 2009-2010.

When you add Goddard, Roo, Kosi and all the other guns we traded in during 2000-5, it's amazing we didn't win one, Judd or no Judd. He would've been the cherry on top of a very sweet cake. Yes, MB, you're right, I'm still not over it. Not our fault really, just the way it rolls sometimes. It's not as though we missed the Juddster. We were huge fans. Buttersssss was particularly apoplectic when we missed him, but it's all history now.

FWIW, the others that hurt in my time were Jack Riewoldt instead of Armo, Cyril Rioli instead of Big Boy McEvoy, and my ultimate nightmare, being over ruled on Jack Darling in favour of Jamie Cripps.

Again, I reckon Jack Riewoldt and Rioli would have both been more significant acquisitions than Judd. Judd was an all-time great, but our midfield remained a potential premiership-winning one through the period. But, once Gehrig went downhill, we could really have done with some extra power up forward.

I don't particularly rate Darling: one of several WCE players - Priddis being the obvious example - whose career stats are inflated by their team's massive home ground advantage with the umps.

[magnifisaint]

I think this is a sensational thread as I respect WW insights even though I don't agree with his analysis of Paddy as much as I'm disappointed with his output so far.

[borderbarry]

Hey, White Winney, which song was it in that Lenin called people " useless idiots?"

[dragit]

The day we lost WW

[meher baba]

Oh well, I guess he won't be responding to my post now.

[meher baba]

Hey, White Winney, which song was it in that Lenin called people " useless idiots?"

Do you mean Vladimir Ilych Lenin? Where can I get some of his albums?

[Joffa Burns]

Hey, White Winney, which song was it in that Lenin called people " useless idiots?"

I think it was Instant Karma or A day in the life

[Bernard Shakey]

Hey, White Winney, which song was it in that Lenin called people " useless idiots?"

Probably Working Class Hero!

[Animal Enclosure]

And only a fool accepts mediocrity as the norm, something our club has done for the majority of its 143 years of existence. Try doing something while it's not too late. Why wait until it's all over? Thank you for proving my point my useless idiot.

Sacking coaches & trading out talented players has had more to do with our rubbish history than supporters being loyal.

There's a lot of supporters who should be bloody embarrassed with their behaviour over the past few weeks. I'm as dirty as anyone about the way the team has played over the past few weeks but you'd have to be in need of a seeing eye dog to blame Paddy for it.

How utterly ridiculous.

[BigMart]

Why isn't McCartin fitter?

3 pre seasons... is clearly not AFL fit

[Animal Enclosure]

All this on the back of speculation from Jake Niall? F**k me!

Let me get this right, Niall is spinning a yarn that Paddy has been managed, is frustrated by lack of opportunity and other Clubs are circling.

I've no doubt a raft of Clubs desperate for a Key Forward (the toughest & most important position) are circling Paddy, just as we're circling Kelly. That would suggest that they rate Paddy. The rest is that drongo Niall trying to join dots.

As a poster has mentioned he had scans & medical attention to the knee, so does Niall believe that the StK FC is engaging in some sort of black op conspiracy to hide the truth? Why would you drop Paddy on last weeks form anyway?

He was dropped because he is a liability who can't run out of sight on a dark night, can't create a threat inside 50 and then can't convert when he does get into range, a bit like his under 18 days when he couldn't hit the side of a barn. Then there are his health issues, which don't appear to be having an impact at all. Can't seem to lose weight, get ripped no matter what he does and has no endurance after three years in the system. Can hardly beat Billy Longer in the running drills, which he always seems to struggle with. After THREE years! Do I need to spell it out any further?. But our resident endocrinologist, Tony Elshaug tells us his diabetes is no issue! Good grief! I'd love to work for some people on here as they demand absolutely zero accountability. It's not as though I've teed off on here over the past few years. I've tried to be supportive and positive, but the scientist in me tells me it's game over. When he kicks five in a game and influences a result, I'll be the first to pull my head in.

Funny then how I personally watched a preseason session where Paddy ran about twenty-five 75 metre sprints with Brucey & Shinner flat out, shoulder to shoulder.

And Billy was a full lap behind Paddy in the 2km time trial immediately after.

Cool story though bro. More befitting of the Herald Sun though.

[Linton Lodger]

Why isn't McCartin fitter?

3 pre seasons... is clearly not AFL fit

There's nothing like match conditioning BM and I reckon he's played 3 in a row only twice. It is really frustrating that he's injured this week, because he seemed to be better adapted to the AFL level pace & intensity last week.

[SaintPav]

Easy to gang up on someone.

People don't like inconvenient truths.

Face facts; Trout f***ed up.