The Coach or the List?

[dals_da_bomb]

If we dont improve then at some point in the next 18 months we are going to need to address this:

AFL Coaches Records & Statistics
Coach Games Wins Losses Draws Win %
1 Don Pyke 34 25 9 0 73.5%
2 Chris Scott 152 109 42 1 71.7%
3 Luke Beveridge 59 39 20 0 66.1%
4 John Longmire 159 105 52 2 66.0%
5 Adam Simpson 80 51 28 1 63.7%
6 Alastair Clarkson 293 184 108 1 62.8%
7 Ross Lyon 250 153 92 5 61.2%
8 Ken Hinkley 102 56 46 0 54.9%
9 Leon Cameron 78 42 36 0 53.8%
10 Brad Scott 167 89 78 0 53.3%
11 Nathan Buckley 124 65 59 0 52.4%
12 John Worsfold 313 157 154 2 50.2%
13 Rodney Eade 370 184 181 5 49.7%
14 Damien Hardwick 167 80 85 2 47.9%
15 Simon Goodwin 11 5 6 0 45.5%
16 Brendon Bolton 37 15 22 0 40.5%
17 Alan Richardson 76 27 48 1 35.5%
18 Chris Fagan 10 1 9 0 10.0%

Wowee.. Im surprised that this surprises me.
its not like im new to the game.. or havent been following closely.

hmmm, yeah wowee.

[saintspremiers]

Re the list.

If we could inject two elite mids that were good ball users you would see the whole team lift c and the team really start to hum.

Correct. And maybe Paddy would then get it all together.

[stonecold]

Richo took over a pretty ordinary list/club, so numbers are misleading, let's re-access after the rest of this year and at this point next year and go from there!!!!!

Club needs stability at this time, not to be knifing the coach!!!!!

[Con Gorozidis]

Richo took over a pretty ordinary list/club, so numbers are misleading, let's re-access after the rest of this year and at this point next year and go from there!!!!!

Club needs stability at this time, not to be knifing the coach!!!!!

I did say 18 months.
But Bolton and Hardwick also took over awful lists.

[Jacks Back]

What we are seeing is a young list where some at times, still get scared of stuffing up. Extremely common with younger & inexperienced lists. I've heard Bomber Thompson talk about how his Geelong list took years to lose their fear of stuffing up despite reassurances. He says they finally did so in 2007.

I saw Blake 8cres stuffing up a few times last Saturday against the dogs. He was taking on the tacklers and getting through 2 or 3 or 4 tackles and then, as soon as he was though, instead of kicking long to a one out or to a forward he would do a stupid handball to someone under pressure. I mean, he was through and just had to keep running and gunning. Maybe he is scared of stuffing up as you say.

[Linton Lodger]

If we dont improve then at some point in the next 18 months we are going to need to address this:

AFL Coaches Records & Statistics
Coach Games Wins Losses Draws Win %
1 Don Pyke 34 25 9 0 73.5%
2 Chris Scott 152 109 42 1 71.7%
3 Luke Beveridge 59 39 20 0 66.1%
4 John Longmire 159 105 52 2 66.0%
5 Adam Simpson 80 51 28 1 63.7%
6 Alastair Clarkson 293 184 108 1 62.8%
7 Ross Lyon 250 153 92 5 61.2%
8 Ken Hinkley 102 56 46 0 54.9%
9 Leon Cameron 78 42 36 0 53.8%
10 Brad Scott 167 89 78 0 53.3%
11 Nathan Buckley 124 65 59 0 52.4%
12 John Worsfold 313 157 154 2 50.2%
13 Rodney Eade 370 184 181 5 49.7%
14 Damien Hardwick 167 80 85 2 47.9%
15 Simon Goodwin 11 5 6 0 45.5%
16 Brendon Bolton 37 15 22 0 40.5%
17 Alan Richardson 76 27 48 1 35.5%
18 Chris Fagan 10 1 9 0 10.0%

These are just win/loss stats and don't say much in isolation.

The immediate flaw is that Clarkson isn't No.1.

Don Pyke inherited a finals list from Phil Walsh, all list development done for him.

Chris Scott inherited a dual Premiership list from Bomber Thompson, all list development done for him.

Luke Beveridge inherited a hardened and finals ready list from McCartney.

Longmire should be at No.2

Adam Simpson inherited a decent list close to finals from Worsfold and has not done too well.

Ross Lyon should be higher, inherited a list that in hindsight was inferior to his St Kilda list and took them to a GF. He is rebuilding rapidly.

Leon Cameron has a stellar list, which was on the fringes of just being competitive when he took over. These statistics cannot be considered an accurate way to assess his performance.

And Richo inherited a list at Ground Zero having walked into a Club in shambles. These statistics cannot be considered an accurate way to assess his performance.

[Wombat15]

We just dont have the mids to rotate tied with the combination of the versatility. Its obvious we benefited from a weaker schedule last year but we had a sense of swagger and identity that we were going to make it hard for teams to get easy touches. we seem to have lost that edge this year but thats ok. I think the selection committee have been dreadful this year and structurally our side is terrible. im not a fan of the like for like swaps as a concept ive always been of the belief of next man up. I get wright had a concussion but he shouldnt have been dropped in the first place. mav isnt providing a single thing across the ground. Bruce shouldnt have been dropped should be learning how to play through bad form. Rooey obviously shouldve been rested sooner. Paddy playing reserves was really the only smart thing the club had done.
overall i do think its a list issue we have quite a few blokes on the list who look like decent footballers but are yet to take a major step in their careers.
You look at the likes of; Minch, Dunstan, Acres, Sinclair, Mackenzie, Paddy, Longer and Hickey and there are a few others. But as a sample these blokes are good footballers but are yet to take that next step in their development. Still inconsistent but you can see what they can bring to the table but are having "down" years from a development eye test standpoint.

Minch doesnt get enough of the ball but is smart inside 50, Dunstan's aerobic capacity is a concern, Acres is brilliant at times then what the hell the next, Sinclair is cool and calm under pressure but doesnt get enough of it, Mackenzie just doesnt play with confidence, Paddy has been discussed in other threads but Longer has had his abilities found out across the ground and hickey just had a rough patch going against some of the best rucks in the comp and got slaughtered.

But i do feel its a playing list issue. we still have plenty of blokes under 50 games in crucial areas. we dont have enough pace on the outside of midfield and we dont have the versatility to rotate blokes like; Gresh, Newnes, Acres through the centre bounces.

I have an idea that the 2nd half of the year will point out issues with both the list and coaching staff. i think the staff have brought us an amazing game style but its time they bring out plan B & C and show how we can diversify our game because the last 2 losses we have badly been outplayed and outcoached. in terms of the list we just need the mids so we can rotate and effectively use our gameplan. Joey and Roo have slowed down a notch this year and are purely there for experience and leadership they cant control a game like they did in previous years so its time for the young core to step up and show what theyve got.

[WellardSaint]

According to the Contracts thread,
these 3 guys are signed till end of this year
Sinclair, Lonie, Savage
I think these 3 might be delisted.

Sinclair is getting games now, to see whether he can handle AFL, and if he is worthy of persistence.
Lonie is stuck in the VFL, I think he can't break in.
Savage seems to have hit the wall recently, and if DMack stays in the seniors, and another similar VFL defender gets much better,
then Shano will have to go.

Club can't afford to carry another depth backman like Savage, and need to delist him to bring in a gun.
If Rooey and Joey walk, the club can probably extend Savage.

List management is a complicated matter;
does anybody think Joey might take one for the team, and leave, so we can bring in Kelly/Martin/Fyfe?
How many do we have to delist each year?

[Con Gorozidis]

If we dont improve then at some point in the next 18 months we are going to need to address this:

AFL Coaches Records & Statistics
Coach Games Wins Losses Draws Win %
1 Don Pyke 34 25 9 0 73.5%
2 Chris Scott 152 109 42 1 71.7%
3 Luke Beveridge 59 39 20 0 66.1%
4 John Longmire 159 105 52 2 66.0%
5 Adam Simpson 80 51 28 1 63.7%
6 Alastair Clarkson 293 184 108 1 62.8%
7 Ross Lyon 250 153 92 5 61.2%
8 Ken Hinkley 102 56 46 0 54.9%
9 Leon Cameron 78 42 36 0 53.8%
10 Brad Scott 167 89 78 0 53.3%
11 Nathan Buckley 124 65 59 0 52.4%
12 John Worsfold 313 157 154 2 50.2%
13 Rodney Eade 370 184 181 5 49.7%
14 Damien Hardwick 167 80 85 2 47.9%
15 Simon Goodwin 11 5 6 0 45.5%
16 Brendon Bolton 37 15 22 0 40.5%
17 Alan Richardson 76 27 48 1 35.5%
18 Chris Fagan 10 1 9 0 10.0%

These are just win/loss stats and don't say much in isolation.

The immediate flaw is that Clarkson isn't No.1.

Don Pyke inherited a finals list from Phil Walsh, all list development done for him.

Chris Scott inherited a dual Premiership list from Bomber Thompson, all list development done for him.

Luke Beveridge inherited a hardened and finals ready list from McCartney.

Longmire should be at No.2

Adam Simpson inherited a decent list close to finals from Worsfold and has not done too well.

Ross Lyon should be higher, inherited a list that in hindsight was inferior to his St Kilda list and took them to a GF. He is rebuilding rapidly.

Leon Cameron has a stellar list, which was on the fringes of just being competitive when he took over. These statistics cannot be considered an accurate way to assess his performance.

And Richo inherited a list at Ground Zero having walked into a Club in shambles. These statistics cannot be considered an accurate way to assess his performance.

I agree. I am not frothing at the mouth over it. It needs to be viewed in context.
But at some point it does become relevant.

Unless you win a flag in which case who cares.

But at some point, zero flags and a win % under 45 becomes an issue.

[SemperFidelis]

According to the Contracts thread,
these 3 guys are signed till end of this year
Sinclair, Lonie, Savage
I think these 3 might be delisted.

Sinclair is getting games now, to see whether he can handle AFL, and if he is worthy of persistence.
Lonie is stuck in the VFL, I think he can't break in.
Savage seems to have hit the wall recently, and if DMack stays in the seniors, and another similar VFL defender gets much better,
then Shano will have to go.

Club can't afford to carry another depth backman like Savage, and need to delist him to bring in a gun.
If Rooey and Joey walk, the club can probably extend Savage.

List management is a complicated matter;
does anybody think Joey might take one for the team, and leave, so we can bring in Kelly/Martin/Fyfe?
How many do we have to delist each year?

Sincs? I would be astonished. Very classy, needs more senior level games. Re-sign!!!

Lonie deserves more time too.

Sav at greater risk, but has been a handy backup.

[Wombat15]

According to the Contracts thread,
these 3 guys are signed till end of this year
Sinclair, Lonie, Savage
I think these 3 might be delisted.

Sinclair is getting games now, to see whether he can handle AFL, and if he is worthy of persistence.
Lonie is stuck in the VFL, I think he can't break in.
Savage seems to have hit the wall recently, and if DMack stays in the seniors, and another similar VFL defender gets much better,
then Shano will have to go.

Club can't afford to carry another depth backman like Savage, and need to delist him to bring in a gun.
If Rooey and Joey walk, the club can probably extend Savage.

List management is a complicated matter;
does anybody think Joey might take one for the team, and leave, so we can bring in Kelly/Martin/Fyfe?
How many do we have to delist each year?

Sincs? I would be astonished. Very classy, needs more senior level games. Re-sign!!!

Lonie deserves more time too.

Sav at greater risk, but has been a handy backup.

Sinclair i think has to be kept. the other two as much as i like them i cant see myself regretting letting them go. we have; Minch, Wright, Long all fighting for small forward spots. The issue i have with lonie is he does bounce off tackles. the pressure is good, the skills are there but he doesnt have that edge that caleb daniel has who is of similar stature. Hes very weak over head and is out muscled on most occasions. Sav is handy but unless he has a favourable contract i cant see the club keeping him considering he really hasnt become the steak knives we traded for.

In terms of Joey i think if hes willing to take the schniedes rookie/coach role that would be the most beneficial POV for the the club. Hed be able to exclusively work with the young ones at sandy and get them to that next level. Then hopefully either roo does the same thing or he goes out on his terms. either way these 2 have stuck with the club through thick and thin and it should be repaid.

[WellardSaint]

According to the Contracts thread,
these 3 guys are signed till end of this year
Sinclair, Lonie, Savage
I think these 3 might be delisted.

Sinclair is getting games now, to see whether he can handle AFL, and if he is worthy of persistence.
Lonie is stuck in the VFL, I think he can't break in.
Savage seems to have hit the wall recently, and if DMack stays in the seniors, and another similar VFL defender gets much better,
then Shano will have to go.

Club can't afford to carry another depth backman like Savage, and need to delist him to bring in a gun.
If Rooey and Joey walk, the club can probably extend Savage.

List management is a complicated matter;
does anybody think Joey might take one for the team, and leave, so we can bring in Kelly/Martin/Fyfe?
How many do we have to delist each year?

Sincs? I would be astonished. Very classy, needs more senior level games. Re-sign!!!

Lonie deserves more time too.

Sav at greater risk, but has been a handy backup.

Sinclair i think has to be kept. the other two as much as i like them i cant see myself regretting letting them go. we have; Minch, Wright, Long all fighting for small forward spots. The issue i have with lonie is he does bounce off tackles. the pressure is good, the skills are there but he doesnt have that edge that caleb daniel has who is of similar stature. Hes very weak over head and is out muscled on most occasions. Sav is handy but unless he has a favourable contract i cant see the club keeping him considering he really hasnt become the steak knives we traded for.

In terms of Joey i think if hes willing to take the schniedes rookie/coach role that would be the most beneficial POV for the the club. Hed be able to exclusively work with the young ones at sandy and get them to that next level. Then hopefully either roo does the same thing or he goes out on his terms. either way these 2 have stuck with the club through thick and thin and it should be repaid.

I picked these 3 because their contracts run out end of this year,
as well as Gilbo, Rooey n Joey.
Nobody here wants to lose Gilbo, so if Rooey n Joey go around again,
these 3 fellas have to get delisted, don't they?

How many guys do clubs have to cut?

[Jacks Back]

I think clubs have to make at least 4 changes at the end of each year which, imho, I'm really not sure why.

Hypothetically, let's say you have the players you want in your firsts and every seconds players is there to cover every position in the firsts. Why would you then need to make 4 changes for players that you don't need?

[Con Gorozidis]

I think clubs have to make at least 4 changes at the end of each year which, imho, I'm really not sure why.

Hypothetically, let's say you have the players you want in your firsts and every seconds players is there to cover every position in the firsts. Why would you then need to make 4 changes for players that you don't need?

I'm not sure about this. I had a very brief browse of the rules and couldn't find anything about this rule.
All I could find was teams must use three picks at the draft and I think that includes rookie upgrades....
So in theory you don't need to make any changes overall.
But I could be wrong. You certainly used to have to make a minimum number of list changes.

Having said that. We are kidding ourselves if we think we have a perfect list.

Savage Lonie Holmes and Since are on thin ice. Joey probably done.

Guys like Rice and White need to get a wriggle on.

Jury still out on Wright, Dunstan, Goddard, Coughlan, NOK, DMac, Longer and Minch.

Long, Phillips and Battle still too young to judge. Marshall appears promising.

That is over a third of the list.

[Bluthy]

Coach for me.

McCartin pick 1, Billings pick 3, Carlisle (something like pick 7 or 8 after the trade), Steven - elite, Ross - A-grade, Newnes - close to A-grade, Robbo A-grade, Gresham pick 18, Acres Pick 19, Dunny pick 18, Armo pick 10, Freeman pick 9, STeele something like pick 14 in reality after academy, Longer pick 8, Hickey pick 16 or something, Roo (champion multi-grand final), Joey (champion multi grand final), Gilbo (multi-grand final), Brown (multi-premiership), Goddard pick 21 or something

That is lot of talent (probably should have been more if we stayed down longer as was wise and probably the initial Pelchen plan before Richo pushed a "winning culture" program and took Scneids off the rookie list) and lots of experience. I don't think we play with a great system and that is the problem. We regularly fall in holes when players get tired and they don't know what to do. We can't keep the footy and exhaust ourselves.

Sam Mitchell shocked me on radio when he said "We tried too hard" What I realised he meant was you need to do your role in the system and let the clever system do the work. You try and do everything and you end up doing nothing. You want the carburetor to function as a carburetor or else the whole system collapses.

I'm putting the System on trial!

[samoht]

It's never the one coach - it's like the Spielberg films - Spielberg might be noted as the director of the film, but in reality there may be another 2 or 3 directors who actually do the directing. Coaching is similarly a team effort.

I think the w/l ratio of coaches is meaningless - coaches aren't coaching teams that have been put together under the exact same specs - it's not formula 1 racing where you can see the better drivers based on them driving the same performing cars.
Even with formula 1, in one year Mercedes might have the slightly better performing cars and the next year it might be Maclaren .
So, even here - where we are using a tight formula - there are slight differences and allowances that have to be made in order to determine who the better drivers are.

Drivers results suffer when their formula 1 cars have mechanical problems - coaches when their star players are injured.
One is based on a tight formula - the other isn't.

[Bluthy]

It's Spielberg's vision that makes his films great. The head coach is the visionary for how the team plays and trys to win a flag. A coach who can't give his team an edge with his tactics and game plan puts them behind the eight-ball. And our club is already behind the eight-ball with resources and disadvantages.

[samoht]

It's Spielberg's vision that makes his films great. The head coach is the visionary for how the team plays and trys to win a flag. A coach who can't give his team an edge with his tactics and game plan puts them behind the eight-ball. And our club is already behind the eight-ball with resources and disadvantages.

This is where the analogy stops.

What good is vision going to do a coach who is in charge of Brisbane?

The vision of the recruiters (or a helping hand by the AFL) might eventually make a difference.

[Johnny Member]

Coach for me.

McCartin pick 1, Billings pick 3, Carlisle (something like pick 7 or 8 after the trade), Steven - elite, Ross - A-grade, Newnes - close to A-grade, Robbo A-grade, Gresham pick 18, Acres Pick 19, Dunny pick 18, Armo pick 10, Freeman pick 9, STeele something like pick 14 in reality after academy, Longer pick 8, Hickey pick 16 or something, Roo (champion multi-grand final), Joey (champion multi grand final), Gilbo (multi-grand final), Brown (multi-premiership), Goddard pick 21 or something

That is lot of talent (probably should have been more if we stayed down longer as was wise and probably the initial Pelchen plan before Richo pushed a "winning culture" program and took Scneids off the rookie list) and lots of experience. I don't think we play with a great system and that is the problem. We regularly fall in holes when players get tired and they don't know what to do. We can't keep the footy and exhaust ourselves.

Sam Mitchell shocked me on radio when he said "We tried too hard" What I realised he meant was you need to do your role in the system and let the clever system do the work. You try and do everything and you end up doing nothing. You want the carburetor to function as a carburetor or else the whole system collapses.

I'm putting the System on trial!

Agree to an extent.

I don't agree with the talent list you've put up.

The number of the draft doesn't matter one iota. Freeman has never played a game of AFL footy - and that surely can't be blamed on the coach (at either club). Newnes is closer to D grade than he is to A-grade. He's so overrated by Saints fans it isn't funny.
Ross and Roberton aren't A-grade either. They're A-grade for us - but not compared to the rest of the comp. They're heading in the right direction, but there not close yet.

Roo is old and can't run, and Joey is virtually a hinderance rather than a help these days IMO. As for Longer? He's not in the top 20 ruckmen in the comp.

So we're in disagreeance on the quality of the list.


You're also blatantly incorrect, either by choice (you're lying) or by error in regards to what you constantly refer to as 'Richo's push to play finals'. I've pulled you up on this several times previously, yet you keep peddling it. So I'm going to have to assume you're just a liar.

Pelchen mapped out the 'blueprint for success' before Richardson even arrived. Pelchen and the board dictated to Richardson, that we will be top 4 by 2018, and have our second flag by 2020. This was not Richardson's call. It's the directive to him - from the club.

He can't argue with that. He's been set that job. So him trying to play finals makes perfect sense if the club has told him we need to be top 4 by next year. You've got to let that one go Bluthy - it's simply not true.


As for the other part, regarding our system, I'm coming round to your point of view on this one. Hence the thread.

I've argued that we're just not good enough. And I still clearly think that this is the case. But as you've argued - is our 'game plan' good enough regardless?

I've debated with you about this, based on the fact that I didn't think we could possibly tell either way until we had a list good enough to carry out whatever the plan is that Richardson was trying to implement. I don't think we'd ever seen the plan in action - so how could we tell if it's any good or not?

However this season, in particular the GWS game - I think we saw it. And I didn't like it. It was too simplistic, and too easy to coach against. I presumed/hoped that Richardson had more up his sleeve and we'd see it come out as teams reacted to what they'd seen us do against GWS. I wrote about this in the 'Revealing Our Hand' thread.

However since the GWS game, Richardson has had nothing up his sleeve. It's the same thing. Slow players coming in, Roberton the lone hand out of defence, and we bomb it in long to the hot spot where the big guys bring it to the ground and the smalls crumb it.

As I said - way too easy to coach against. And we've seen that result in an average Points For drop from high 90s pre-GWS, to low 60s post-GWS.


So I do now worry that we've got no tricks. I'm not completely convinced of it yet mind you, but I am concerned about it. I need to see something to suggest otherwise.

[samoht]

It's easy to blame the coach, his lack of vision, etc..I could start doing that too - but then I ask myself - how far would we go if we were blessed with a midfield of Fyfe, Mundy, Neale and the 2 Hill brothers? (or Collingwood's midfield, etc..) - and I know the answer is a lot further!

There are so many cards up a coach's sleeve - we are missing a few.

Our list is far from being complete.

I certainly don't want our recruiters to rest on their laurels - there's a lot more work for them to do.

[Wombat15]

I would say our selection committee has been useless this year. We brought Long in and pigeon holed him into a small forward role and didn't use him as the runner that he should be, never allowed him to win a spot. Coaching staff seemed too proud (for lack of a better term) to rest rooey earlier and then for some stupid reason we drop bruce and make paddy and a mid sized forward in membrey run the forward line when roo on on leg is expected to still play at the same level....(pause for breath). Selections have been terrible this like for like nonsense only works in vital areas across the ground. Dropping wright after a fantastic game was just stupid. Mav hadnt showed anything leading up to that game that he should've come straight back in. I like the way we handled paddy (because hes a 20 gamer) and sav (probably due to toughness and form) because they were made to earn their spot back. Handling Brucey and Mav this year has been poor. Bruce should never have been dropped, he has to learn how to play through bad form because hes at a different stage in his career compared to Paddy and Sav.
Mav is trying to be too flashy and not show what he did last year of that relentlessly attacking half forward. He was elevated and drafted for us purely for his tireless work rate and selflessness but he just seems to have turned his back on what made him revered at the footy club. Joey seems a step off the pace and cant control like he did last year but i thought richo might go with Sav, Billings or even newnes in that role. I get its hard to blood through the youngsters when we don't have injuries.

If i were to simplify the problems im seeing its; (Apart from us having no midfield or plan b) i wanted to take a different angle.

- structural issues in the forward line (HAVE TO PERSIST WITH PADDY, MEMBREY AND BRUCE) then get Wright and Gresh at their feet.
- New blokes coming in not being played in advantageous positions. Sinclair is the only one whos forced his way up there and shown he has classy ball usage. Steele originally wasnt getting enough midfield minutes either. Gotta start playing bloked in their best position not pigeon holing them into roles where they wont be seeing the ball that often and be called upon in a moments notice. Mackenzie was just thrown into a half back role and probably shouldve played on a wing instead.
- lastly selection committee need to take a hard long look at themselves. going in against a doggies side who have multiple floating defenders with 1 key forward was a gigantic mistake. Dropping wright after hes one of the only 3 blokes this year that scrap in that forward line was a terrible move. you need the dirty work forwards like Bruce and Wright and potentially gresh falls into that mould as well seeing as he creates something out of nothing.

The 2018 offseason does look very promising considering the wealth of options but id like us to head there in a "positive and pleasing" manner.

[White Winmar]

Jack Newnes over rated, JM? Good grief. What games are you watching? One of our few reliable kicks and rebounders. He has missed only four games since the start of 2013, so obviously form and fitness are not concerns. Over his career of 101 games he has averaged 20 possessions a game, with his average close to 24 this year. That puts him fourth on the list for getting the pill. Not bad for a bloke who spends most of his time in defence. Seriously considered as captaincy material internally, with he and Ross next cabs off the rank. In the leadership group as well. Tell me why he's over rated and give me some evidence. I wait with bated breath.

[Johnny Member]

Jack Newnes over rated, JM? Good grief. What games are you watching? One of our few reliable kicks and rebounders. He has missed only four games since the start of 2013, so obviously form and fitness are not concerns. Over his career of 101 games he has averaged 20 possessions a game, with his average close to 24 this year. That puts him fourth on the list for getting the pill. Not bad for a bloke who spends most of his time in defence. Seriously considered as captaincy material internally, with he and Ross next cabs off the rank. In the leadership group as well. Tell me why he's over rated and give me some evidence. I wait with bated breath.

His decision making is awful.

And his possessions dont hurt one bit.


He had 35 touches last week and didn't get a single coaches vote. That says something.


The fact that he's in our leadership group says more about us than it does about him.


I don't rate him.

[Darth Vader]

Jack Newnes over rated, JM? Good grief. What games are you watching? One of our few reliable kicks and rebounders. He has missed only four games since the start of 2013, so obviously form and fitness are not concerns. Over his career of 101 games he has averaged 20 possessions a game, with his average close to 24 this year. That puts him fourth on the list for getting the pill. Not bad for a bloke who spends most of his time in defence. Seriously considered as captaincy material internally, with he and Ross next cabs off the rank. In the leadership group as well. Tell me why he's over rated and give me some evidence. I wait with bated breath.

Agree 100%.

[Johnny Member]

Dont get me wrong, he's not completely hopeless.

But he's far from being a star. He's 70th in the comp for disposals, and was 70th last year too. Add in the fact that he's not in our top 15 for effective disposals and is 2nd for clangers - and you're starting to see why I think Saints fans overrate him.