POLL: Longer or Hickey vs. GWS?

[Sainternist]

The question should be: will Sam Gilbert get to be our second ruckman again?

[SuperDuper]

You anti-Longer people are just obsessed - you can't admit you were wrong writing Longer of as a total dud. Lucky we don't have you lot at the selection table. You want to change a winning team, where we dominated the clearances for the first time all year? Are you joking? Honestly is this a joke? How glorious was it to get first use and the mids loved sharing it around.

Possessions for ruckmen are over-rated. Why do you want a 6ft giraffe trying to use the ball and often turn it over. The most they usually do is shovel it out with a handball standing flat footed. Let the mids deal with ball delivery - that's their job. Rather than focusing on taking possession Hickey should be exhausting himself in the ruck to wear down the oppo ruck. Thats' what Longer did brilliantly to McEvoy who waned badly in the second half. I gave Longer a vote for a great physical job done.

Mumford would rag doll Hickey and then go on a rampage around the rest of the ground. Longer will grind him down. No question Longer plays.

sounds more like you are Longer obsessed to me

The best ruckmen impact the game with possessions/marks/goals.

[saintsRrising]

I would normally prefer Hickey. But if their is one opponent that I would prefer Longer for it is Mummy.

[samoht]

There's another stat that I found interesting - Hickey averaged 3.6 clearances per game himself over last year - which means that around 4 times every game, on average, he clears the ball himself.
He becomes yet another clearance player for us!!!! A very effective and important one at that!

Longer is averaging 1 such clearance this year (probably the lowest among the ruckmen) - whereas Hickey is averaging 4 (might just about be the highest?) !

talk about irrelevant.
Last year was 3rd man up. It's gone now.

Longer averages 1 clearance himself. What round are we in? bit early to quote averages?
And how many clearances is Hickey averaging this year (you conveniently omitted that)

15 in 4 games, my math isn't so good but I think that's a little bit more than one per game.

Not early at all -- wellardsaint.
I referred to Hickey's stats over the whole of season, 2016 (did you miss that?)... where he played plenty of games and averaged 3.6 clearances, himself. He's continuing with this average this year - with 4 clearances per game.
Longer averaged 1.8 clearances over the year (2014) when he was our preferred ruckman (OK, I left this detail out, before) . He's averaging only 1 so far this year.

Hitouts are way overrated - so I don't rate Longer (or any ruckman) for his hitouts.
McEvoy beat Longer last week - and was the Hawk's 2nd best player. He had 18 possessions and kicked 2 goals - to Longer's 5 handballs. That's what I look at.
"Hitouts to advantage" does not lead to a clearance - it's not a sure thing - the recipient of a "hitout to advantage" can still get tackled or blocked or chased down (and does 9 times out of 10), can still cough up the ball(it happens all the time), can still get caught with the ball and get paid a free kick against - and so there's no clearance to him at the end - it gets cleared the other way just as many times.
That's why Mumford can win 25 more hitouts than Hickey - and yet we can still win the clearances by 3 - as we did!!

[Scollop]

Longer has more pressure acts per game; don't discount how many times he get's in the way of the opposiition and how many times he mans the mark per game; plus- Billy sticks his tongue out at the opposition more times per game; points to the scoreboard and laughs at the opposition when we're in front; and his hair is darker which means under the lights at Etihad he can throw around a few stray elbows and the umpires don't see him as easily as the fair haired players

[Proph3t of egan]

You anti-Longer people are just obsessed - you can't admit you were wrong writing Longer of as a total dud. Lucky we don't have you lot at the selection table. You want to change a winning team, where we dominated the clearances for the first time all year? Are you joking? Honestly is this a joke? How glorious was it to get first use and the mids loved sharing it around.

Possessions for ruckmen are over-rated. Why do you want a 6ft giraffe trying to use the ball and often turn it over. The most they usually do is shovel it out with a handball standing flat footed. Let the mids deal with ball delivery - that's their job. Rather than focusing on taking possession Hickey should be exhausting himself in the ruck to wear down the oppo ruck. Thats' what Longer did brilliantly to McEvoy who waned badly in the second half. I gave Longer a vote for a great physical job done.

Mumford would rag doll Hickey and then go on a rampage around the rest of the ground. Longer will grind him down. No question Longer plays.

sounds more like you are Longer obsessed to me

The best ruckmen impact the game with possessions/marks/goals.

Sandilands goal kicking is what makes him the most dominant ruckman of the last decade obviously

[goods]

Holmes would out leap Mumford. And is is strength and height

[SuperDuper]

You anti-Longer people are just obsessed - you can't admit you were wrong writing Longer of as a total dud. Lucky we don't have you lot at the selection table. You want to change a winning team, where we dominated the clearances for the first time all year? Are you joking? Honestly is this a joke? How glorious was it to get first use and the mids loved sharing it around.

Possessions for ruckmen are over-rated. Why do you want a 6ft giraffe trying to use the ball and often turn it over. The most they usually do is shovel it out with a handball standing flat footed. Let the mids deal with ball delivery - that's their job. Rather than focusing on taking possession Hickey should be exhausting himself in the ruck to wear down the oppo ruck. Thats' what Longer did brilliantly to McEvoy who waned badly in the second half. I gave Longer a vote for a great physical job done.

Mumford would rag doll Hickey and then go on a rampage around the rest of the ground. Longer will grind him down. No question Longer plays.

sounds more like you are Longer obsessed to me

The best ruckmen impact the game with possessions/marks/goals.

Sandilands goal kicking is what makes him the most dominant ruckman of the last decade obviously

Sandi averages 12.8 posessions and 3.6 marks oper game compared to Longer 8 and 1.8
So yes, he does impact the game with marks and posessions (I never said all three.. just marks/posessions/goals.... but if you are asking, Sandi averages 0.4 goals per game and Billy 0)

So yes.. Sandi has a long history making an impact beyond his dominant tap work

[White Winmar]

Why not try Holmes? He could leap all over Mummy and give a contest around the ground. It would be great for his learning to follow Mummy around the ground and note his running patterns. In the end, though, I think they will go for Hickey.

[samoht]

Why not try Holmes? He could leap all over Mummy and give a contest around the ground. It would be great for his learning to follow Mummy around the ground and note his running patterns. In the end, though, I think they will go for Hickey.

It's not a wrestling match - it's not about brute strength and who wins the hitout count - because at the end of the day it doesn't lead to clearances. You can win 30 more hitouts and still lose the clearances.
And Longer averages about the same hitout numbers as Hickey, in any case.
Hickey ended up 60th, ahead of clearance players like Zaharakis, in clearing the ball out of the centre himself last year and that's from only 20 games, whereas some of the top 100 had played 26 games!!

Hickey's ceiling is potentially much higher - And he is a valuable extra clearance player for us.
He hasn't been in his best form for whatever reason - but I still rate him ahead of Longer even in his current form- and hopefully he'll recapture his stellar 2016 form during the year - but he won't do that from the sidelines.
Pierce will be our emerging ruckman - he's ready for some games. I think he'll be the surprise packet this year or next - and we'll all be saying why wasn't he played earlier.

[dragit]

clearance players like Zaharakis

Have you ever watched Zaharakis play?

[samoht]

clearance players like Zaharakis

Have you ever watched Zaharakis play?

Zaharakis is supposed to be a clearance player.
How about Pendlebury then - who averaged 4.5 clearances per game last year? HIckey's 3.6 clearances per game last year is not that far from that!
Importantly, this year with the rucking rule changes, Hickey's averaging 3 more such clearances per game than Longer (4 vs 1) - over a small sample size- but at least he's maintaining his average of 4 or thereabouts from last year. These are Pendlebury-like numbers.

[Apples]

I think we should go with Gilbert as 1st ruck and play another midfielder.......

[dragit]

clearance players like Zaharakis

Have you ever watched Zaharakis play?

Zaharakis is supposed to be a clearance player.
How about Pendlebury then - who averaged 4.5 clearances per game last year? HIckey's 3.6 clearances per game last year is not that far from that!
Importantly, this year with the rucking rule changes, Hickey's averaging 3 more such clearances per game than Longer (4 vs 1) - over a small sample size- but at least he's maintaining his average of 4 or thereabouts from last year. These are Pendlebury-like numbers.

I'll take that as a no.

[samoht]

I'll take that as a no.

Please yourself ....

Round 6 Biggest Fantasy Price Movers
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Ben McEvoy +$46,400

[Otiman]

The question should be: will Sam Gilbert get to be our second ruckman again?

Yes, absolutely. All he needs to do is compete in the air. bringing one of our best tacklers as an 'extra' into stoppages is going to win us more clearances.

[realdeal]

Hickey 'managed' for three weeks in a row now...

[Devilhead]

Hickey will be back next week to take on Kruezer, then Sinclair then Boyd the two weeks after that

Longer will be managed for a few weeks

This swapping in and out of our rucks will continue during the rest of the H&A season - come finals the ruckman chosen will come down to opposition ruck match ups

[wasaintsfan]

Any one still think hickey was the right choice this game?

[stonecold]

Any one still think hickey was the right choice this game?

Not me, Longer really out Mumforded, Mumford, Bill was very Physical and not intimidated, well done Billy Boy!!!!!

[magnifisaint]

Longer was good and beat Mumford in the ruck. Absolute miles ahead of Holmes who is there for insurance. Hickey would have been smashed physically.

[shrodes]

Any one still think hickey was the right choice this game?

Prefer Hickey in general but Longer was very very good tonight. Was always the right choice vs. Mummy. We are lucky to have two ruckmen with complimentary talents. There has been a lot of trade table talk, but can / should we keep them both?

[borderbarry]

Should we keep Longer and Hickey? I say no. Get rid of the one we have the best offer for.

Although on tonights effort I would rather keep Billy.

[Bluthy]

Should we keep Longer and Hickey? I say no. Get rid of the one we have the best offer for.

Although on tonights effort I would rather keep Billy.

Jesus - why is everyone so determined to get rid of our good players? What if they do away with the no-third-man rule next year and the ball goes back into Hickey's court a bit more. What if Longer gets injured or drops off form. I just don't get this knee jerk reaction all the time with thinking we can get away with just one proven ruck. Would you want just one proven full forward or full back? No you want back up and competition on all spots. Give it a rest about trading Hicks or Longer until we have decent backup from Pierce or Marshall at least.

ps Longer did to Mummy what he did to McEvoy last week - wore him down and then got on top to give us great drive from clearances. Big props for getting his fitness up that he can play out 4 quarters really strongly. And he's young so should keep getting stronger and fitter.

Hickey's journey now is to show he can be equally physical and not just act like another mid. He needs to show he can negate the brute rucks and do the blocking and destroying of oppo midfields structure.

[bigcarl]

Monstered Mummy. Great effort. We're lucky to have two good ruckman with different attributes. Keep em both