Flat Hands

[White Winmar]

People don't seem to realise that he has been getting double-teamed almost every week since last year. In this happening, he actually has created a decoy. This is why guys like Membrey have been excelling up front. Having said that, it would be a bonus if he could hold a few more marks. I hope Jono Brown's observation is accurate, then Josh should be able to amend this fairly easily.

Browns observation is accurate, I noticed it over a year ago! Josh won't fix it easily at all.

So it's a fault, not a deliberate tactic. Thought so.

[WellardSaint]

People don't seem to realise that he has been getting double-teamed almost every week since last year. In this happening, he actually has created a decoy. This is why guys like Membrey have been excelling up front. Having said that, it would be a bonus if he could hold a few more marks. I hope Jono Brown's observation is accurate, then Josh should be able to amend this fairly easily.

Browns observation is accurate, I noticed it over a year ago! Josh won't fix it easily at all.

So it's a fault, not a deliberate tactic. Thought so.

He seemed to mark a lot better in 2015.

[Johnny Member]

People don't seem to realise that he has been getting double-teamed almost every week since last year. In this happening, he actually has created a decoy. This is why guys like Membrey have been excelling up front. Having said that, it would be a bonus if he could hold a few more marks. I hope Jono Brown's observation is accurate, then Josh should be able to amend this fairly easily.

Browns observation is accurate, I noticed it over a year ago! Josh won't fix it easily at all.

So it's a fault, not a deliberate tactic. Thought so.

In all seriousness....

The fact that McCartin does it too is just too much of a coincidence for mine.

I lean toward BigMart's earlier post about habits. I think it's trained into players that their first priority is to ensure that the ball doesn't get out the back and the ball comes to the front of the pack. Front and centre. Team rules etc. etc. I know other clubs train this, so I assume we do too.

I think it possibly creates that doubt around attacking a marking contest naturally with the fingers spread in case it slips through the back, and as a result these two guys are going too flat handed at most contests.


I could be wrong, it could just be a technique thing that both of them have picked up in the past 2 seasons.

[White Winmar]

It's an interesting thought. I must admit I haven't noticed Paddy doing it. Bruce has dropped a lot of marks, so I'll be more interested in watching him. Flat, or concrete hands seem to indicate a lack of confidence, technique, or both. Happy to keep observing. I hope our forwards keep trying to clunk them, with the consequence of not taking the mark being that the ball hits the ground anyway.

[Sainter_Dad]

It's an interesting thought. I must admit I haven't noticed Paddy doing it. Bruce has dropped a lot of marks, so I'll be more interested in watching him. Flat, or concrete hands seem to indicate a lack of confidence, technique, or both. Happy to keep observing. I hope our forwards keep trying to clunk them, with the consequence of not taking the mark being that the ball hits the ground anyway.

I would rather that 1 or 2 balls get out the back and the rest are marked, than 100% of the balls are dropped and fall to chance at the front of the pack - Just my 2 cents worth

[Sainternist]

It's an interesting thought. I must admit I haven't noticed Paddy doing it. Bruce has dropped a lot of marks, so I'll be more interested in watching him. Flat, or concrete hands seem to indicate a lack of confidence, technique, or both. Happy to keep observing. I hope our forwards keep trying to clunk them, with the consequence of not taking the mark being that the ball hits the ground anyway.

I'm pretty sure McCartin doesn't do this. Or at least he didn't last year. Looked like a good clean mark of the ball to me. Anyway, with Bruce being double-teamed most weeks, it frees guys like Membrey up. And he has been fantastic at marking the ball over head.

[Johnny Member]

It's an interesting thought. I must admit I haven't noticed Paddy doing it. Bruce has dropped a lot of marks, so I'll be more interested in watching him. Flat, or concrete hands seem to indicate a lack of confidence, technique, or both. Happy to keep observing. I hope our forwards keep trying to clunk them, with the consequence of not taking the mark being that the ball hits the ground anyway.

I'm pretty sure McCartin doesn't do this. Or at least he didn't last year. Looked like a good clean mark of the ball to me. Anyway, with Bruce being double-teamed most weeks, it frees guys like Membrey up. And he has been fantastic at marking the ball over head.

He does. I've watched the tapes.

He can have a vice like grip and has taken some really clean contested marks. But he too also goes quite flat handed at quite a lot of contests.


Frustrating.

[Sainternist]

It's an interesting thought. I must admit I haven't noticed Paddy doing it. Bruce has dropped a lot of marks, so I'll be more interested in watching him. Flat, or concrete hands seem to indicate a lack of confidence, technique, or both. Happy to keep observing. I hope our forwards keep trying to clunk them, with the consequence of not taking the mark being that the ball hits the ground anyway.

I'm pretty sure McCartin doesn't do this. Or at least he didn't last year. Looked like a good clean mark of the ball to me. Anyway, with Bruce being double-teamed most weeks, it frees guys like Membrey up. And he has been fantastic at marking the ball over head.

He does. I've watched the tapes.

He can have a vice like grip and has taken some really clean contested marks. But he too also goes quite flat handed at quite a lot of contests.


Frustrating.

The club should get someone like Stewie Loewe as a specialist marking coach. Geez, we also have Roo who knows all about marking the ball.

[Johnny Member]

Yep such flat hands

Just on that though..... how anyone can watch that and not be excited at how good he will be is beyond me!

[Sainter_Dad]

Yep such flat hands

1:45 for mine

[bigcarl]

I lost track of the number of times we bombed it in to Bruce and Co. tonight and nothing stuck. You can't fault Bruce for being competitive and bringing it to ground. Always gives a great contest and is very physical in the way he plays. Just needs to clunk a few more

[rodgerfox]

Interesting.


This 'flat handed' thing still hasn't been addressed with McCartin.

I read a few posts on this topic early last year and still watch it closely. Either McCartin is being trained to 'flat hand' the marking contest, or he has a technical flaw in his game.

Either way - I'd far prefer to see him attack the marking contest with his sole objective to mark the ball with one clean grab. As an afterthought, bring it to front and centre. Not vice versa,

[rodgerfox]

Our coaches are ruining the career of a No. 1 pick key forward with this 'flat hands bring it to the front' s***.


For the love of God, don't Richardson near Josh Battle. Let forwards attack the marking contest with their number one intention to be to mark the pill!!

[Sainter_Dad]

McCartin is being trained to 'flat hand' the marking contest, or he has a technical flaw in his game.

There is no doubt it is being coached - Paddy marks so well outside of the fifty.

I will say it again - Paddy CHF - Back of the square forward - delivering to the forwards - his 50 mtr passes are awesome - and Josh Battle playing FF

[Sainternist]

It's as though he hears footsteps inside 50m. Spills everything. Maybe he needs to keep a pine tar rag handy to wipe his hands on so the ball sticks.

[chico2001]

The Flat hands tactic is an old one and was used in wet weather football by the big markers such as Bill Ryan and Gary Dempsey years ago when conditions at the grounds were a tad muddy. Also players who werent "one grabbers" used it. Nothing wrong with it but if you are going to do it you have to hold onto the mark.

[rodgerfox]

The Flat hands tactic is an old one and was used in wet weather football by the big markers such as Bill Ryan and Gary Dempsey years ago when conditions at the grounds were a tad muddy. Also players who werent "one grabbers" used it. Nothing wrong with it but if you are going to do it you have to hold onto the mark.

I think you've missed the point.

There is a growing trend in AFL footy for key marking forwards, to not mark the ball - but instead to 'force a contest' and bring the ball to the front of the pack.

Their first option, is NOT to mark the ball. It's to bring it to the front of the pack.

I think it's blatantly obvious that Paddy has been coached to do this. And it s***s me to tears.

Why recruit a guy with your number 1 pick, then stifle his ability by having him merely play a 'force a contest' role? To use a s*** analogy - don't use your luxury sedan to plough the fields - use your tractor.

I know the team may benefit in some contests by the ball coming to the front of the pack over the course of a game - but surely, in the long run, we're going to benefit more by having a big key forward who attacks the marking contest with his sole intention of clunking it! A dude who can take contested marks Inside 50 is invaluable. And I'd have thought that's why we used pick 1 on a key marking forward that can take contested marks Inside 50!

The big issue now is, that I reckon he second guesses himself. I think his default now is the 'flat hands', even when it's obvious in certain contests he should be trying to mark the pill. Up the ground on the lead, when on his own, he marks it like a vice. But when in a contest in a dangerous forward position, he flat hands it every time.

[Crossy66]

The Flat hands tactic is an old one and was used in wet weather football by the big markers such as Bill Ryan and Gary Dempsey years ago when conditions at the grounds were a tad muddy. Also players who werent "one grabbers" used it. Nothing wrong with it but if you are going to do it you have to hold onto the mark.

I think you've missed the point.

There is a growing trend in AFL footy for key marking forwards, to not mark the ball - but instead to 'force a contest' and bring the ball to the front of the pack.

Their first option, is NOT to mark the ball. It's to bring it to the front of the pack.

I think it's blatantly obvious that Paddy has been coached to do this. And it s***s me to tears.

Why recruit a guy with your number 1 pick, then stifle his ability by having him merely play a 'force a contest' role? To use a s*** analogy - don't use your luxury sedan to plough the fields - use your tractor.

I know the team may benefit in some contests by the ball coming to the front of the pack over the course of a game - but surely, in the long run, we're going to benefit more by having a big key forward who attacks the marking contest with his sole intention of clunking it! A dude who can take contested marks Inside 50 is invaluable. And I'd have thought that's why we used pick 1 on a key marking forward that can take contested marks Inside 50!

The big issue now is, that I reckon he second guesses himself. I think his default now is the 'flat hands', even when it's obvious in certain contests he should be trying to mark the pill. Up the ground on the lead, when on his own, he marks it like a vice. But when in a contest in a dangerous forward position, he flat hands it every time.

Has been this way for a while. I notice the same thing with Josh Bruce and Billy Longer. Seem to be instructed to get the ball front and centre rather than mark it. Seems to work the same way with Jack R at Richmond.

[rodgerfox]

Has been this way for a while. I notice the same thing with Josh Bruce and Billy Longer. Seem to be instructed to get the ball front and centre rather than mark it. Seems to work the same way with Jack R at Richmond.

Agreed. The OP raised it way back last year. Even earlier.

Like most things, 'team rules' need some common sense applied. So to use Jack Riewoldt, or even Charlie Dixon at Port (who also does it) as examples, they seem to know when to clunk it, and when to 'flat hand' it front and centre. As a result, they both are still very dangerous contested marks inside 50.

I'd actually argue that Dixon overdoes it too, and as a result Port can be a bit predictable. They also happen to have Robbie and Sam Gray at his feet which helps! Whereas Riewoldt marks first when in a dangerous position, and brings it to the ground when the opportunity arises.

McCartin and Bruce remove any danger they present to the opposition as key forwards, because they rarely, if ever legitimately attack a marking a contest with the full intention of strongly marking it. Everyone, fans, players and opposition defenders all know where the ball is going.

Last year, both Dixon and Riewoldt were in the top 5 in the comp for Marks Inside 50. So they clearly know that you need to do both.

I genuinely worry that at such a young age, if McCartin keeps getting coached this way, he could easily lose his instinct for contested marking altogether. I already see signs that this is happening.

[Crossy66]

Has been this way for a while. I notice the same thing with Josh Bruce and Billy Longer. Seem to be instructed to get the ball front and centre rather than mark it. Seems to work the same way with Jack R at Richmond.

Agreed. The OP raised it way back last year. Even earlier.

Like most things, 'team rules' need some common sense applied. So to use Jack Riewoldt, or even Charlie Dixon at Port (who also does it) as examples, they seem to know when to clunk it, and when to 'flat hand' it front and centre. As a result, they both are still very dangerous contested marks inside 50.

I'd actually argue that Dixon overdoes it too, and as a result Port can be a bit predictable. They also happen to have Robbie and Sam Gray at his feet which helps! Whereas Riewoldt marks first when in a dangerous position, and brings it to the ground when the opportunity arises.

McCartin and Bruce remove any danger they present to the opposition as key forwards, because they rarely, if ever legitimately attack a marking a contest with the full intention of strongly marking it. Everyone, fans, players and opposition defenders all know where the ball is going.

Last year, both Dixon and Riewoldt were in the top 5 in the comp for Marks Inside 50. So they clearly know that you need to do both.

I genuinely worry that at such a young age, if McCartin keeps getting coached this way, he could easily lose his instinct for contested marking altogether. I already see signs that this is happening.

Agree.
Seems to be when ever they are double teamed in a contest, which is most of the time.

[chico2001]

"I think you've missed the point"


How did I manage to do that expert?

Some real rubbish in your post. Your comment on McCartin and Bruce not attacking a contest to mark is bordering on filth. Bruce has taken some great marks over time in packs....Have you? Dixon and Rewoldt are better marks than the saints pair so hence more marks.The other comment about being instructed not to mark the ball is astounding, you need to back up comments like that with some fact.

The only saving grace you have and it is minimal at best is that normal playing practice is that if you cannot mark the ball with confidence in a pack then knock it down. If you are doubled teamed in a contest of course you knock it down hoping a Gresham is there to pick it up. This is just basic football.

I have watched McCartin play live 4 times and watched every other game on TV. He is not a good mark and that is the fact of the matter. Have seen him back into packs to mark the ball and get knocked out even, he hits the packs hard but is generally spoilt. I have seen Bruce take some great marks over his time at the saints.
Listen to some of the commentators and they will say the same thing......but you know more than them dont you?

[rodgerfox]

"I think you've missed the point"


How did I manage to do that expert?

Some real rubbish in your post. Your comment on McCartin and Bruce not attacking a contest to mark is bordering on filth. Bruce has taken some great marks over time in packs....Have you? Dixon and Rewoldt are better marks than the saints pair so hence more marks.The other comment about being instructed not to mark the ball is astounding, you need to back up comments like that with some fact.

The only saving grace you have and it is minimal at best is that normal playing practice is that if you cannot mark the ball with confidence in a pack then knock it down. If you are doubled teamed in a contest of course you knock it down hoping a Gresham is there to pick it up. This is just basic football.

I have watched McCartin play live 4 times and watched every other game on TV. He is not a good mark and that is the fact of the matter. Have seen him back into packs to mark the ball and get knocked out even, he hits the packs hard but is generally spoilt. I have seen Bruce take some great marks over his time at the saints.
Listen to some of the commentators and they will say the same thing......but you know more than them dont you?

Ok, so you admit that you missed the point?

[chico2001]

I will say that you do it well....An A grade mythomaniac......

[Sainternist]

The only bloke in our forward line these days who looks likely to hold his marks is Tim Membrey.

[chico2001]

And that is because he goes for his marks and if he misses...too bad. He does take a lot of marks one on one which he is very good at. Completely different footballer to McCartin.