Robbo has the answers? or more questions -article

[saintbrat]

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/t ... d401306155

So, who are the Saints?

They are a pressure team, but have they anything else?

Cats coach Chris Scott said this week on AFL360 the Saints have more depth as a team than just applying pressure.

They do move the ball exceptionally well from the back half to the front half and when they want to, or are allowed to, play the outside game, it can be done.

In Round 1 game against Melbourne, which they lost by five goals after leading by four goals at the first break, the Demons dismantled St Kilda’s game by reducing its ability to apply pressure.

Melbourne kept the ball. The Demons were +59 for uncontested marks and +107 for disposals.

In Round 4 against Collingwood, which St Kilda won by 14 points, the Saints did a Demons. They were +34 for uncontested possessions and +32 uncontested marks.


Tom Hickey and Billy Longer have both underperformed in the ruck this season.
They can play both styles.

One problem is they have only won the contested footy count once and that was against the Brisbane Lions.

The major positive — and why Saints fans must stick fat — is St Kilda is ranked No.2 for scores from inside-50s.

But its other major problem is it misses too many shots at goal — it is ranked 17th, above only Collingwood, for accuracy.

What a mixed bag the Saints are.

[Toy Saint]

Hate Robbo, but I reckon he's about right

[Stephen Theodore]

I don't have a problem with that article, it's due.

[Wayne42]

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/t ... d401306155

So, who are the Saints?

They are a pressure team, but have they anything else?

Cats coach Chris Scott said this week on AFL360 the Saints have more depth as a team than just applying pressure.

They do move the ball exceptionally well from the back half to the front half and when they want to, or are allowed to, play the outside game, it can be done.

In Round 1 game against Melbourne, which they lost by five goals after leading by four goals at the first break, the Demons dismantled St Kilda’s game by reducing its ability to apply pressure.

Melbourne kept the ball. The Demons were +59 for uncontested marks and +107 for disposals.

In Round 4 against Collingwood, which St Kilda won by 14 points, the Saints did a Demons. They were +34 for uncontested possessions and +32 uncontested marks.


Tom Hickey and Billy Longer have both underperformed in the ruck this season.
They can play both styles.

One problem is they have only won the contested footy count once and that was against the Brisbane Lions.

The major positive — and why Saints fans must stick fat — is St Kilda is ranked No.2 for scores from inside-50s.

But its other major problem is it misses too many shots at goal — it is ranked 17th, above only Collingwood, for accuracy.

What a mixed bag the Saints are.

Summary equals we are crap due to a Swiss cheese type rebuild, maybe we should start another 5 year plan at years end, meantime,
all of us ageing saints fans hope to stay alive until the club flukes another flag.

[White Winmar]

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/t ... d401306155

So, who are the Saints?

They are a pressure team, but have they anything else?

Cats coach Chris Scott said this week on AFL360 the Saints have more depth as a team than just applying pressure.

They do move the ball exceptionally well from the back half to the front half and when they want to, or are allowed to, play the outside game, it can be done.

In Round 1 game against Melbourne, which they lost by five goals after leading by four goals at the first break, the Demons dismantled St Kilda’s game by reducing its ability to apply pressure.

Melbourne kept the ball. The Demons were +59 for uncontested marks and +107 for disposals.

In Round 4 against Collingwood, which St Kilda won by 14 points, the Saints did a Demons. They were +34 for uncontested possessions and +32 uncontested marks.


Tom Hickey and Billy Longer have both underperformed in the ruck this season.
They can play both styles.

One problem is they have only won the contested footy count once and that was against the Brisbane Lions.

The major positive — and why Saints fans must stick fat — is St Kilda is ranked No.2 for scores from inside-50s.

But its other major problem is it misses too many shots at goal — it is ranked 17th, above only Collingwood, for accuracy.

What a mixed bag the Saints are.

Summary equals we are crap due to a Swiss cheese type rebuild, maybe we should start another 5 year plan at years end, meantime,
all of us ageing saints fans hope to stay alive until the club flukes another flag.

How dare you point out the reality! Don't you realise how much we've improved and how great a coach Richo is? Why the pessimism? Just give it up, mate. Our players are the best and anyone who bags them is a chicken little and a surly curmudgeon. We're going to win it this year. We're just lulling everyone into a false sense of security. Have some faith. We're on our way.

[SaintPav]

Fkn hell

[Goose is king]

Really looking forward to the next two weeks. It could make or break our season. No excuses for drop off in pressure with lots at stake

[thejiggingsaint]

Reasonable article. At the moment, we're a fair way off the position we all hoped to be in before the season started.But, it's not all gloom and doom, and a win tomorrow could go a long way to kick starting our year in earnest.

[Impatient Sainter]

Robbo is totally correct our midfield, ruckman, goal kicking has all been well below par! Wonder if Richo asked him to write something after 360 Monday night?

[Bluthy]

They are a pressure team, but have they anything else?

I, and a few others, called this last year. When we were falling in hole particularly interstate and having huge momentum swings with often 6 or 7 goals kicked against us in a row, we questioned if there were an underlying simplicity in our game plan. We relied on bringing huge numbers at the ball and even when we had the ball needed to keep getting huge numbers around it as we weren't good with our delivery. Basically we had a very exhausting, sloppy style hence why we were falling in a hole.

I want an apology from Johnny Member who relentlessly mocked and tried to humiliate me about this theory. He mocked me with his classic strawman simplistic counter-arguements of "Oh yeah you think the coach just says go out there and apply pressure and nothing else" and "You are like old ladies at the footy screaming - just kick it". Well the chief writer of the herald sun and I've also heard Dermot Breroton now agree with me. It's been interesting to see a lot of people on this forum start to see it too. So some serious validation right there.

Johnny needs to show some balls and apologise. I picked it a long way out and copped some serious abuse for it when we looked like a juggernaut last year just missing out on finals and everyone said Richo was a brilliant coach - Big Mart said he might be the best coach we've ever had. We use pressure as the basis of our game. It should be the icing on the cake. You have a plate full of icing it lacks substance.

Ready for the apology Johnny...

[Teflon]

I'm ok with that article it's factual and a true reflection of where we are at
On our day, when allowed against lessor sides, we can dominate and appear better than we are
When the heat goes up a notch against quality...... the 'old cracks' we've been busy papering over reappear (see footskills).
I have thought (see Torn thread) that our issue maybe rising to quickly and not getting our quality in from the draft - we don't have the next Riewoldt or Harvey at the club yet imo but we do appear to have better quality depth (types like Newnes,Ross,Webster, Acres et al) than in days past where the fall from quality to good depth was a chasm.
We do need a Bont win that's for sure a genuine match winner but equally we need to keep building that quality strong depth so playing Rice, Dmac, Long, Sinclair etc (not all at once) is crucial while we start to weed out those who can't hit targets
I keep telling myself this will be a slower build cause it takes time to amass that type of talent..... hope that's not wishful thinking

[st.byron]

I'm ok with that article it's factual and a true reflection of where we are at
On our day, when allowed against lessor sides, we can dominate and appear better than we are
When the heat goes up a notch against quality...... the 'old cracks' we've been busy papering over reappear (see footskills).
I have thought (see Torn thread) that our issue maybe rising to quickly and not getting our quality in from the draft - we don't have the next Riewoldt or Harvey at the club yet imo but we do appear to have better quality depth (types like Newnes,Ross,Webster, Acres et al) than in days past where the fall from quality to good depth was a chasm.
We do need a Bont win that's for sure a genuine match winner but equally we need to keep building that quality strong depth so playing Rice, Dmac, Long, Sinclair etc (not all at once) is crucial while we start to weed out those who can't hit targets
I keep telling myself this will be a slower build cause it takes time to amass that type of talent..... hope that's not wishful thinking

We do seem to have poor skills under pressure....not up to standard to make us genuine contenders.

Perhaps you're right re the speed of the re-build. As someone pointed out this week, we did finish last in 2014. A bit impatient to expect us to be top quality in 2017.

[Linton Lodger]

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/t ... d401306155

So, who are the Saints?

They are a pressure team, but have they anything else?

Cats coach Chris Scott said this week on AFL360 the Saints have more depth as a team than just applying pressure.

They do move the ball exceptionally well from the back half to the front half and when they want to, or are allowed to, play the outside game, it can be done.

In Round 1 game against Melbourne, which they lost by five goals after leading by four goals at the first break, the Demons dismantled St Kilda’s game by reducing its ability to apply pressure.

Melbourne kept the ball. The Demons were +59 for uncontested marks and +107 for disposals.

In Round 4 against Collingwood, which St Kilda won by 14 points, the Saints did a Demons. They were +34 for uncontested possessions and +32 uncontested marks.


Tom Hickey and Billy Longer have both underperformed in the ruck this season.
They can play both styles.

One problem is they have only won the contested footy count once and that was against the Brisbane Lions.

The major positive — and why Saints fans must stick fat — is St Kilda is ranked No.2 for scores from inside-50s.

But its other major problem is it misses too many shots at goal — it is ranked 17th, above only Collingwood, for accuracy.

What a mixed bag the Saints are.

Summary equals we are crap due to a Swiss cheese type rebuild, maybe we should start another 5 year plan at years end, meantime,
all of us ageing saints fans hope to stay alive until the club flukes another flag.

How on earth did you come up with that interpretation of that article?

[To the top]

This will open a can of worms!!!!

I think the problem is identified by who was appointed Captain.

No doubt he is as honest as the day is long, busts his gut BUT he is a good, honest footballer at the very best.

This, being appointed to the Captaincy with those credentials, sends the wrong message.

We require a Captain who leads from the front, can take games by the scruff of the neck and inspire a result with a standout BOG performance, in the mid field or in an outer key position.

It filters down from there, and says that we aspire to GOP's

No doubt, in my mind anyway, we have the MAKINGS of a very competitive side - but we have some holes, particularly in the absence of Armitage and ahead of the recruited Freeman building to AFL requirements.

Whilst cases can be mounted for Gilbert and Roberton, including because of their height, the remainder of our defensive support for Carlisle and Brown is not to standard - hence Montagna back there when we should be seeing what the likes of White and McKenzie can deliver.

With the mids, we lack support for Steven - and, looking at our List the prospects are limited to Freeman.

We have the big bodies with Ross, Dunstan, Acres, Steele and Stevens but of those only Acres is a line breaker.

Acres is the only one of that group who can do a Steven and run and bounce the ball, creating havoc

Plus, I just do not know what is going on with our Rucks.

And our structure.

[Linton Lodger]

Gee the game has gotten far more offensive recently, teams running it through the corridor, taking risks and attempting to quickly transition into attack. The risk of this when it goes wrong, it only needs a chink in the system to do so, is that teams can be badly hurt going the other way and leak goals.

While we're despairing about the successive goals kicked against us, its worth noting that the reigning Premiers conceded 11, yes 11 goals, in a row to Brisbane last week. A little perspective.

[bigcarl]

This will open a can of worms!!!!

I think the problem is identified by who was appointed Captain.

No doubt he is as honest as the day is long, busts his gut BUT he is a good, honest footballer at the very best.

This, being appointed to the Captaincy with those credentials, sends the wrong message.

Bollocks. The only quality a captain needs - apart from being good enough to deserve a spot - is leadership. That is why Geary was appointed and it's why he will be a good captain.

Where is it written that the captain must be your best player or one of your best?

[st.byron]

This will open a can of worms!!!!

I think the problem is identified by who was appointed Captain.

No doubt he is as honest as the day is long, busts his gut BUT he is a good, honest footballer at the very best.

This, being appointed to the Captaincy with those credentials, sends the wrong message.

We require a Captain who leads from the front, can take games by the scruff of the neck and inspire a result with a standout BOG performance, in the mid field or in an outer key position.

Interesting observation.. Of the other 17 clubs, 12 are captained by genuine mids. The others being Hurn, Walker, Murphy, Roughead and May and Lynch co-captains at Gold Coast. No doughty defenders among them.

[Bluthy]

Gee the game has gotten far more offensive recently, teams running it through the corridor, taking risks and attempting to quickly transition into attack. The risk of this when it goes wrong, it only needs a chink in the system to do so, is that teams can be badly hurt going the other way and leak goals.

While we're despairing about the successive goals kicked against us, its worth noting that the reigning Premiers conceded 11, yes 11 goals, in a row to Brisbane last week. A little perspective.

That was a one off. s*** happens. s*** happens consistently, you have a system problem.

[bigcarl]

Interesting observation.. Of the other 17 clubs, 12 are captained by genuine mids. The others being Hurn, Walker, Murphy, Roughead and May and Lynch co-captains at Gold Coast. No doughty defenders among them.

Maybe no other courageous defenders are considered to have the requisite leadership skills. Geary, by all accounts, is a stand out in this regard. So much so that no one else was really considered, at least for this year.

[Linton Lodger]

Gee the game has gotten far more offensive recently, teams running it through the corridor, taking risks and attempting to quickly transition into attack. The risk of this when it goes wrong, it only needs a chink in the system to do so, is that teams can be badly hurt going the other way and leak goals.

While we're despairing about the successive goals kicked against us, its worth noting that the reigning Premiers conceded 11, yes 11 goals, in a row to Brisbane last week. A little perspective.

That was a one off. s*** happens. s*** happens consistently, you have a system problem.

When has happened consistently?

When Melb kicked 10 in a row against us, we kicked 6 or 7 behinds in a row in that period. An issue with kicking for goal. I'm pretty sure we kicked numerous points in the period Brisbane kicked 5 or 6 in a row against us. Against West Coast we simply run out of legs, they never really got a hold of us.

These run ons have been quite common across the competition this year.

[saintsRrising]

Robbos article pretty well sums up alot of what has been discussed on the forum this year. So no surprises.

I, and a few others, called this last year. When we were falling in hole particularly interstate and having huge momentum swings with often 6 or 7 goals kicked against us in a row, we questioned if there were an underlying simplicity in our game plan. We relied on bringing huge numbers at the ball and even when we had the ball needed to keep getting huge numbers around it as we weren't good with our delivery. Basically we had a very exhausting, sloppy style hence why we were falling in a hole.

...

Yes we are a pressure team. But what alternative does the coach have for other gamestyles?


We do not have the elite midfield talent to win the ball first. Hence the gameplan we have.

We do not have the elite kicking skills like the Hawks at their peak did. Hence the gameplan we have.

The gameplan we have has been designed to try and overcome our shortcomings. As it is', if Dangerfield had of been raised in Gippsland rather than Moggs Creek we probably would have knocked off the Cats.

The gameplan is not why we lost to WCE. It was why we should have won it. It was poor kicking at goal plain and simple that lost us that match.'


If and when the club lands some elite mids, then Richo may well roll out a new gameplan. In the meantime he still has to try and turn a pig's ear into a silk purse.

[Johnny Member]

This will open a can of worms!!!!

I think the problem is identified by who was appointed Captain.

No doubt he is as honest as the day is long, busts his gut BUT he is a good, honest footballer at the very best.

This, being appointed to the Captaincy with those credentials, sends the wrong message.

We require a Captain who leads from the front, can take games by the scruff of the neck and inspire a result with a standout BOG performance, in the mid field or in an outer key position.

It filters down from there, and says that we aspire to GOP's

But therein lies the whole problem!

We don't actually have anyone that fits that description!!

[Johnny Member]

Robbos article pretty well sums up alot of what has been discussed on the forum this year. So no surprises.

I, and a few others, called this last year. When we were falling in hole particularly interstate and having huge momentum swings with often 6 or 7 goals kicked against us in a row, we questioned if there were an underlying simplicity in our game plan. We relied on bringing huge numbers at the ball and even when we had the ball needed to keep getting huge numbers around it as we weren't good with our delivery. Basically we had a very exhausting, sloppy style hence why we were falling in a hole.

...

Yes we are a pressure team. But what alternative does the coach have for other gamestyles?


We do not have the elite midfield talent to win the ball first. Hence the gameplan we have.

We do not have the elite kicking skills like the Hawks at their peak did. Hence the gameplan we have.

The gameplan we have has been designed to try and overcome our shortcomings. As it is', if Dangerfield had of been raised in Gippsland rather than Moggs Creek we probably would have knocked off the Cats.

The gameplan is not why we lost to WCE. It was why we should have won it. It was poor kicking at goal plain and simple that lost us that match.'


If and when the club lands some elite mids, then Richo may well roll out a new gameplan. In the meantime he still has to try and turn a pig's ear into a silk purse.

Yep, totally agree.

That's been my 'argument' all along.

[Johnny Member]

They are a pressure team, but have they anything else?

I, and a few others, called this last year. When we were falling in hole particularly interstate and having huge momentum swings with often 6 or 7 goals kicked against us in a row, we questioned if there were an underlying simplicity in our game plan. We relied on bringing huge numbers at the ball and even when we had the ball needed to keep getting huge numbers around it as we weren't good with our delivery. Basically we had a very exhausting, sloppy style hence why we were falling in a hole.

I want an apology from Johnny Member who relentlessly mocked and tried to humiliate me about this theory. He mocked me with his classic strawman simplistic counter-arguements of "Oh yeah you think the coach just says go out there and apply pressure and nothing else" and "You are like old ladies at the footy screaming - just kick it". Well the chief writer of the herald sun and I've also heard Dermot Breroton now agree with me. It's been interesting to see a lot of people on this forum start to see it too. So some serious validation right there.

Johnny needs to show some balls and apologise. I picked it a long way out and copped some serious abuse for it when we looked like a juggernaut last year just missing out on finals and everyone said Richo was a brilliant coach - Big Mart said he might be the best coach we've ever had. We use pressure as the basis of our game. It should be the icing on the cake. You have a plate full of icing it lacks substance.

Ready for the apology Johnny...

Sorry, no apologies Bluthy. Actually, if I did 'mock' and try to 'humiliate' you, then I do apologise. That's not cool if I did.


I still disagree with your premise though.

I heard Richardson interviewed recently and he spoke about the different strategies we have in place, in particular what we try to implement when the opposition gets a run on. It was in relation to getting several goals in a row kicked on us and that we can't seem to stop it. He was talking about how the problem isn't that the strategies don't exist, but that the coaches are trying to fix the reasons the players aren't implementing them. I'm paraphrasing, but that was the jist of it.

Basically, we're not doing on-field what the coaches are asking the us to do.

So there are strategies and tactics that the coaches want us to execute - but we're not doing it. So what we see on-field, isn't what Richardson wants us to do.


What exactly does he want us to do? I don't know. It might be flawed and rubbish - but until we carry it out effectively we simply can't draw a conclusion.

That's what I've been saying all along. That's what I've argued with you about - you have stated as fact that all we have is a pressure game plan and nothing else. I've argued that you can't possibly state it as fact at this stage.


My belief is, and always has been, that the reason we can't execute our strategies is that we're not good enough. We don't have the skill level to do it.


So how do we know what Richardson's idea of good footy is? It's like judging Clarkson on his first 3 years at Hawthorn. They were rubbish, and he was about to be sacked. No one could see what he was trying to do and most thought his game plan was either poor or didn't even exist.

Once his players developed into stars and his team was oozing with top end talent - hey presto! They start executing and they're a very good team. Suddenly we could see what they were trying to do.

But until the cattle were there, it simply didn't' work. Even right now, they look like rubbish again because the cattle are no longer at the same level they were.


I posted this the other week on another thread before we played Collingwood...


Clearly this week is basically a battle of 'pressure'.

Collingwood appear to be trying to do what we do - and that is pinch games through out-pressuring and out-tackling the opposition.

It took a superhuman effort from them last week, in terms of their pressure and tackling numbers - to beat an undermanned, out of form and inexperienced team by 1 point. That's a concern for them.

Pressure and tackling and intensity is the only strong they have to their bow. Sound familiar??

Like us, they have very low skill level across the park and very little high end talent. Granted, they have more than us with Pendlebury, Sidebottom and Treloar. But aside from them, it drops sharply to a bunch of battlers.


So again, like us, if they attempt to implement a precise and 'surgical' style of play - they'd be eaten alive by most teams. They, like us, just don't have the skill level to play that sort of game.

We use pressure as the basis of our game. It should be the icing on the cake. You have a plate full of icing it lacks substance.

So Bluthy, I don't think our 'pressure game' is a problem. I totally disagree with you on this point.


Every club and every coach relies on intense pressure and tackling as their cornerstone. They all do. Pressure is not the icing, it is the cake. No matter how talented a side is, without pressure and intensity and effort - they're nothing.

With only pressure, tackling and intensity and effort - you can win games and be competitive. But it will only get you so far. That's where the icing comes into it! Strategy, cohesion, talent and skill is the icing on the cake. I know the coaches have strategies. But I don't know if they're good strategies. I don't think anyone can know yet. What I do know though, is that we don't have the talent to execute it.

Beveridge, Clarkson, Buckley, Roos, Matthews, Dunstall and more have all spoken about the drop off in pressure and tackling as the reasons for teams winning and losing this season. They all pinpoint pressure and tackling as the difference between teams on the day. They all pinpoint this as the reason they aren't able to execute their game plans. The strategies don't change - the players do though and the pressure from the opposition does too.

Without it, you lose. Simple as that.

I don't know how you can argue otherwise to be honest.


What I do agree with you on is though, that we need more than just that. Just going out and pressuring and tackling each week won't make you a top 4 side. It will be lucky to get you into the 8. Because the other top sides all bring pressuring and tackling every week - plus they have effective strategies and have the talent to execute it. So you might be able to spook the weaker teams with pressure, but the good teams won't be spooked.


But as per above, I don't think that our coaches disagree either. They know this, and have strategies and and tactics in place to compliment the pressure and tackling. It's just that we don't have the talent on our list to execute it.


Time will tell whether or not the tactics and strategies that Richardson is bringing to the table are any good. I'm certainly not overly confident that they are, but until we have the talent and skill to execute it then I simply can't see how you or anyone else to draw a conclusion either way.



But, this bit is funny...

Well the chief writer of the herald sun and I've also heard Dermot Breroton now agree with me. It's been interesting to see a lot of people on this forum start to see it too. So some serious validation right there.

Really?? Robbo, Dermie and some posters on here are serious validation??!

Besides, I don't think Robbo is saying what you're saying. I think he's posing the question - which I agree with. Do we have more than just pressure? It's a valid question. What I'm saying is, that how can we answer that with the cattle we have? We can't.

You aren't posing the question - you're declaring it as fact. I don't know how you can do that at this stage.

[bigcarl]

Good analysis by Robbo. Addresses issues that come up consistently on this forum.

Most specifically, do we have the cattle, particularly in the midfield.