Where is Riewoldt amoungst our all time greats?

[BigMart]

Hmm...

Because I come from the same area as Doc, do you think I have heard a bit about him, researched his career, do you think my Dad saw him play? Grand Father, uncles... ffs I've had family who played against him both at East Devonport and Latrobe.

Jesus Christ, the medal in my home footy towns league is the Baldock Medal, there is a medallist in my family

I probably have a better idea about his career than most others who haven't seen him play, because legends about him are still spoken about in the pool room at home....

Why do you think my family supports StK... wasn't a random choice, It was a Baldock choice. Not for me, mine was a Lockett choice!!!


I didn't see Doc play, I have read plenty, listened to people, seen enough footage to know he was probably the most talented player in Australia from 1957-1965
Unfortunately a lot of those years (5) were probably wasted running around in the NWFU

He never won a Brownlow, never won a Coleman... and won only 3 b&f

Compare that to
Skilton, Reynolds, Bartlett, Murray, Matthews, Hutchinson, Stewart, Nichols, Hudson

Whitten, Barrassi, Baldock - Output doesn't match legend

[saintsRrising]

Russell Holmesby the well known, and regarded StKFC Historian, did 'his StKilda Top 25 back in 2015.
http://www.saints.com.au/news/2015-01-1 ... top-25-no1

His Top 5in order were:

Stewart
Lockett
Baldock
Harvey
Riewoldt

However just read his article and not ffs, or blasphemation, anywhere, and so obviously his opinion must be disregarded as lacking credibility

[BigMart]

Staggered still

How a guy could play nearly 400 games

Be an 8 time AA

Win 2 Brownlow - 208 Brownlow votes

Win 4 best and fairests
Finish in the top 3 of the b&f at least 8 times

Win 3 EJ Whitten medals

Have a best game of 46 possesions and 4 goals

Single handed.. win StK an interstate final at 33yo

I am not sure what more he could actually do... oh that's right, have a bigger personality!

My favourite ever player
Tony Lockett

Greatest ever Tasmanian Footballer
Darryl Baldock

But as far the biggest contribution to most StK victories - which is what I consider greatest player
R. Harvey
He was a freak, genius who dominated 3 eras

[stonecold]

Fair post BigMart, carnt argue with it!!!!!

[Moods]

Staggered still

How a guy could play nearly 400 games

Be an 8 time AA

Win 2 Brownlow - 208 Brownlow votes

Win 4 best and fairests
Finish in the top 3 of the b&f at least 8 times

Win 3 EJ Whitten medals

Have a best game of 46 possesions and 4 goals

Single handed.. win StK an interstate final at 33yo

I am not sure what more he could actually do... oh that's right, have a bigger personality!

My favourite ever player
Tony Lockett

Greatest ever Tasmanian Footballer
Darryl Baldock

But as far the biggest contribution to most StK victories - which is what I consider greatest player
R. Harvey
He was a freak, genius who dominated 3 eras

That's a fair comment, except Banger was lucky enough to play in some better Saints teams than plugger. I would argue that if Plugger was surrounded by the types of players that say Dunstall was, he would be regarded as the greatest AFL player ever, much like Bradman in cricket. We would all be arguing over who the 2nd best player in history was. Plugger singlehandedly won games for the Saints when the Saints were only average. Banger couldn't do that.

The consistency of Roo as a key fwd I have yet to observe of any key fwd in my 47 years of living. It's quite remarkable that he simply never plays poorly - over the last 15 years that is. He too has won countless games for the Saints. Imagine a team with Roo at CHF and Plugger at FF with Banger feeding them. Roo would take 12 marks a game and kick his obligatory 3 goals, banger would get his 35 possessions and Plugger would kick 6-7 each week.

[stonecold]

Always said, if Plugger played for Hawks instead of Saints, he would have kicked over 1500 goals, if Piggy played for Saints instead of Hawks, he would have kicked slightly less than 1000. Not a knock on Piggy, just how good Plugger could of been!!!!!

[Vazelos]

Great argument for Harvey Bigmart and agree with the Lockett/Dunstall point stone cold.
When assessing Greatest does it mean what?
1. The player at his zenith that can win you a game of footy OR
2. His contribution over his career OR
A bit of both.

It's Lockett every time if it's No 1 criteria but players like Riewoldt and Harvey who consistently delivered for close to 2 decades have to be considered stronger if criteria 2 comes into it. Riewoldt and Harvey never as well cost the team with a stupid suspension or a lack of preparation. With Lenny Hayes the greatest professionals ever to walk into our club.
Lockett at his peak was averaging over 7 goals a game in the era of 1989-1992 yet he never played a full season.
That's the frustrating part of Plugger... he had so much of a higher ceiling at his peak whereas Dunstall extracted every ounce of performance from his talents yet Lockett is still considered better with that in mind.

I'm frustrated Buckley and Voss get more air time than Harvey.. It's simply not fair..
I have to say Riewoldt the last few years has gone up a notch in his consideration.
Who at that age is playing at his level from his position?
Brereton was cooked at 28/29, Carey not much after...Riewoldt is smashing it at 34.
He has played close to 300 high level matches yet his didn't win a premiership etc etc

[Mr Magic]

How many games a more modern legend plays compared to the legends of yesterday is a pretty meaningless factor to use to compare them.

Players from yesterday:
- Would often start at the club later. ie Baldock was say about 24?
- Were paid a pittance - So would often retire early to earn more money by either starting a "real job" or play in country leagues which actually could pay better
- Did not have access to modern medical practices and rehab, and so injury often prematurely ended careers.

It is better I think to consider how a players was rated for their era and then to compare that.

That is not to say that longevity in the game should not be well regarded. But to say that Baldock was not as good as say Lockett purely based on games played is not relevant to me.

Lockett was just out and out awesome at his peak. Many forget that he played most of his games against multiple opponents. One Dons game Sheedy had 4 Dons dedicated to the task. Yes other full forwards also had to sometimes beat multiple opponents, but never as often or as many as Lockett had to. LockeHe intimadated not just his opponent, but the whole opposite team! A highly skilled kick includling being deadly accurate on goal, great and powerful mark, quick burst lead, good ground skills

Roo is a modern freak in being a big player to play so well for so long. Harvey was long lived too, but generally more mids last longer. Both players work-rates sets them apart from other players.


Lockett
Riewoldt
Baldock
Harvey
Stewart

John Coleman, who the medal for the season's leading goal kicker award is named after, played just 98 games for Essendon before his career was cut short by a knee injury.
He won his Club B&F just once and was the competition leading goal kicker 4 times.
His 'lack of games' didn't seem to worry the VFL/AFL when they decided to overlook all the other great full-forwards and name the medal after him?

As SRr has posted so succinctly, to compare players from differing eras on longevity in the game seems wrong without taking into consideration the circumstances of those eras. the injury that curtailed Coleman's career in 1964 would most likely be merely a 12 month recovery these days due to the advancement of treatment since then.

[Vazelos]

John Coleman no doubt is someone that would have challenged Lockett as greatest ever full forward if he played longer.

[magnifisaint]

Staggered still

How a guy could play nearly 400 games

Be an 8 time AA

Win 2 Brownlow - 208 Brownlow votes

Win 4 best and fairests
Finish in the top 3 of the b&f at least 8 times

Win 3 EJ Whitten medals

Have a best game of 46 possesions and 4 goals

Single handed.. win StK an interstate final at 33yo

I am not sure what more he could actually do... oh that's right, have a bigger personality!

My favourite ever player
Tony Lockett

Greatest ever Tasmanian Footballer
Darryl Baldock

But as far the biggest contribution to most StK victories - which is what I consider greatest player
R. Harvey
He was a freak, genius who dominated 3 eras

Remember it's just your opinion which is biased and shouldn't be passed off as fact.

[ChrisRyanSaints]

If we had kicked ONE more point in a game or the brownlow wasnt just a midfielders award then REIWOLDT by a mile. In fact had we executed 2009/2010 hed be known as the greatest player (performer) would he not?
He got 19 votes last year as a 33/34 year old.
Wouldnt discount him playing another 2 years and getting that flag in 2018/2019 as we gel and get things right (like cats 2007)
He is easily our best. One of the greatest of all time for the league let alone saints

[BigMart]

Why is my opinion biased?

Are they not facts??

If other players did more, I would have them above Rob... I have no loyalty to him, I just acknowledge his career

My favourite player ever in footy, and the reason I love StK is Tony Lockett

BTW
Lockett at his zenith was amazing 91-92
Harvey at his best, every bit as good in 97-98.... 60 Brownlow votes, b&f and Brownlow both years, 1600 possessions at 30 per game.

It's nothing against other greats
And if you add Tony's Sydney career of 500 goals, 3 more colemans, 1 more b&f, a GF ... he is right at the top with in the history of the game
Matthews, Carey, Ablett - perhaps at 4

Same with Stewie going to Richmond, 2 flags, third Brownlow

[stevie]

Always pondered what might have been if we had have had, say a Jonathan Brown as CHF and Roo played his whole career at CHB. He would be lauded as possibly the best ever in that positon IMO. And you could still swiing him forward if needed a la Peter Knights.

Twin Roos - one at each end - would've even been better!

[St Chris]

Twin Roos - one at each end - would've even been better!

James and William.....it's coming!!!!!

[satchmo]

IF you subscribe to the theory that the only measure of success is premierships, then it's Ian Stewart by a mile. Brownlow medal in a year that we win our only flag by a point...fairly significant contribution that. He was also a founding member of the Rolling Stones.

But personally, I don't feel the need to rank these great players. Roo is still going anyway, so might yet win a brownlow and a flag!

[saintsRrising]

Why is my opinion biased?

Everyone's opinion is biased. It is the nature of being a human.

And even computer logic will biased by the person that programmed it.

[Stephen Theodore]

Also been watching from early 60s and my choice would be:

1. Lockett
2. Baldock
3. Harvey
4. Roo
5. Stewart

I'd rank Lockett & Carey as the best footballers I've seen, ahead of Skilton, Matthews & Hudson

[perfectionist]

The first game I saw was in 1960, so I never saw the players who went before - that's over 60 years of Saints players - some of whom would have been champs. That's a bias that is inbuilt. My father said Billy Mohr was the best player he had seen. Harold Bray was always in the top ten of the Brownlow count and, according to Roy Wright who won it twice, was the best player of his era. Brian Gleeson was said to be most skilled and won a Brownlow while just 22. He was appointed captain for the next season but did his knee in a practice game and never played again. He would have been a handy 29yo in the 1963 finals series.

I did see Big Carl's debut match at the Junction Oval in 1963 which was also Ian Stewart's debut game. Darrel Baldock came the year before, as did Ross Oakley. They all had exceptional skills and courage that had to be seen to believed. But Stewie won us more games - if it wasn't for him we would never have won a flag and I wouldn't have seen Bob Murray win it for us in the last 10 seconds.

I saw John McIntosh mesmerise the opposition with his skills. One play still remains in my memory, a story worth telling again, - a game out at Windy Hill, not a happy hunting ground. He marked the ball on the left forward flank and turned to his left (away from the boundary) to shot for goal on his right. However, an Essendon opponent behind him moved to block his path. McIntosh then went onto his left foot, to the boundary line and drop kicked the ball through the centre from about 45 metres. The ground shook from the Essendon players' jaws hitting the ground. We went on to win the game easily. Another knee injury, another flag lost.

Of that era, I rated the skills of Ian Stewart and John McIntosh around the same level as those of Bob Skilton, alas, not one of our players. It was no fluke that he won 3 BMs. He was 3cm shorter than Jack Lonie. He could kick either foot 50 metres, handball either hand 20 metres and take a speccy. And, he had pace. Not a bad package.

George Young was skillful but our next really skillful player was Plugger. As we saw quite graphically recently, throughout the entirety of his career, Plugger was never fit - sometimes nowhere near it. But he had foot and hand skills that were unsurpassed and was a perfect judge of a mark. Robert Harvey joined him, and although not as gifted in the skills department, set the standard for dedication to fitness for every footballer who has followed him. He changed the game.

Joel Smith had exquisite skills and could have been anything. Did his knee and was never quite the same, but at least they were able now fix it for him to play on (alas with Hawthorn).

Which brings us to Nick Riewoldt. I can remember Robert Harvey saying in his last year when interviewed after a game when he was BOG that he had made a few blues. Which he did. Two. In comparison with blokes around him who made many more or the person who would replace in the team who would make a lot more - even if he was able to get to the footy - it was nothing. But such are the standards that such players set themselves that to display the faults of ordinary players is a sign to give the game away. And to some extent we don't mind that. No-one wants to see a champ humiliated on the ground. With Nick, despite a bung knee, he continues to be our best player. He clearly has greater aerobic capacity that any other player in our team and most of the rest in the AFL. His marking ability is as good as any player in the AFL. He still has his skills. But more than anything else, it has been his leadership around, and for, the club that stands out. For 20 players in 1966, a point made all the difference as it did for 22 players in 2010. Because of that, the fact that someone played in a flag is of little influence on me when judging our best player. I will look at all of the factors.

Whilst I am hopeful that the best Saints player of all time is yet to play a game, up to date, it is hard to go past Nick.

[saynta]

Hmm...

Because I come from the same area as Doc, do you think I have heard a bit about him, researched his career, do you think my Dad saw him play? Grand Father, uncles... ffs I've had family who played against him both at East Devonport and Latrobe.

Jesus Christ, the medal in my home footy towns league is the Baldock Medal, there is a medallist in my family

I probably have a better idea about his career than most others who haven't seen him play, because legends about him are still spoken about in the pool room at home....

Why do you think my family supports StK... wasn't a random choice, It was a Baldock choice. Not for me, mine was a Lockett choice!!!


I didn't see Doc play, I have read plenty, listened to people, seen enough footage to know he was probably the most talented player in Australia from 1957-1965
Unfortunately a lot of those years (5) were probably wasted running around in the NWFU

He never won a Brownlow, never won a Coleman... and won only 3 b&f

Compare that to
Skilton, Reynolds, Bartlett, Murray, Matthews, Hutchinson, Stewart, Nichols, Hudson

Whitten, Barrassi, Baldock - Output doesn't match legend

Dont know what you are trying to say BM.

From memory the doc was runner up to stewart one year for the brownlow.

Should have won at least one.

Barrassi was overrated. I say a kid take him apart in his first game. Patted him on the head too. Barrassi denied that to me but i saw it with my own eyes.

Whitten was something else, but a completely different footballer to the doc.

[saynta]

Staggered still

How a guy could play nearly 400 games

Be an 8 time AA

Win 2 Brownlow - 208 Brownlow votes

Win 4 best and fairests
Finish in the top 3 of the b&f at least 8 times

Win 3 EJ Whitten medals

Have a best game of 46 possesions and 4 goals

Single handed.. win StK an interstate final at 33yo

I am not sure what more he could actually do... oh that's right, have a bigger personality!

My favourite ever player
Tony Lockett

Greatest ever Tasmanian Footballer
Darryl Baldock

But as far the biggest contribution to most StK victories - which is what I consider greatest player
R. Harvey
He was a freak, genius who dominated 3 eras

Remember it's just your opinion which is biased and shouldn't be passed off as fact.

Yep, basically what i said earlier in this thread.

Everyone is entitled to express an opinion,but that's what they are opinions, not facts.

Baldock and stewart were part of the only saints team to win a premiership and that should never be forgotten.

Champions in a team chock full of them. Despite what BM posted, we would never have reached the grannies in 65 and 66 without them.

I was there.

I know lots of non saints supportets who rate stewart as the best ever player and the doc the cleverest.

Yes, I now what banger achieved and love him for it.

Plugger, cuz, loewe, spud, banger, burkie and co, as good as they were, didn't jag us a second cup.

No one should get upset if poster has a different view of the best ever.

I can assure you, i have mine and nothing ever said on this forum has made me change my mind.....ever.

[BigMart]

Just don't understand how if a player was better than Harves, why didn't they achieve as much, for as long

Every achievement i listed IS actually a fact, not an opinion. He was the best player in the league.

As for premierships
If Tuddenham didn't panic and ran with the footy for 30m and Collingwood won by 5 points
Would Baldock, Stewart and all the others be lesser players???
Of course not

Teams get judged on Premierships

Players get judged on idividual performances

[Wayne42]

The first game I saw was in 1960, so I never saw the players who went before - that's over 60 years of Saints players - some of whom would have been champs. That's a bias that is inbuilt. My father said Billy Mohr was the best player he had seen. Harold Bray was always in the top ten of the Brownlow count and, according to Roy Wright who won it twice, was the best player of his era. Brian Gleeson was said to be most skilled and won a Brownlow while just 22. He was appointed captain for the next season but did his knee in a practice game and never played again. He would have been a handy 29yo in the 1963 finals series.

I did see Big Carl's debut match at the Junction Oval in 1963 which was also Ian Stewart's debut game. Darrel Baldock came the year before, as did Ross Oakley. They all had exceptional skills and courage that had to be seen to believed. But Stewie won us more games - if it wasn't for him we would never have won a flag and I wouldn't have seen Bob Murray win it for us in the last 10 seconds.

I saw John McIntosh mesmerise the opposition with his skills. One play still remains in my memory, a story worth telling again, - a game out at Windy Hill, not a happy hunting ground. He marked the ball on the left forward flank and turned to his left (away form the boundary) to shot for goal on his right. However, an Essendon opponent behind him moved to block his path. McIntosh then went onto his left foot, to the boundary line and drop kicked the ball through the centre from about 45 metres. The ground shook from the Essendon players' jaws hitting the ground. We went on to win the game easily. Another knee injury, another flag lost.

Of that era, I rated the skills of Ian Stewart and John McIntosh around the same level as those of Bob Skilton, alas, not one of our players. It was no fluke that he won 3 BMs. He was 3cm shorter than Jack Lonie. He could kick either foot 50 metres, handball either hand 20 metres and take a speccy. And, he had pace. Not a bad package.

George Young was skillful but our next really skillful player was Plugger. As we saw quite graphically recently, throughout the entirety of his career, Plugger was never fit - sometimes nowhere near it. But he had foot and hand skills that were unsurpassed and was a perfect judge of a mark. Robert Harvey joined him, and although not as gifted in the skills department, set the standard for dedication to fitness for every footballer who has followed him. He changed the game.

Joel Smith had exquisite skills and could have been anything. Did his knee and was never quite the same, but at least they were able now fix it for him to play on (alas with Hawthorn).

Which brings us to Nick Riewoldt. I can remember Robert Harvey saying in his last year when interviewed after a game when he was BOG that he had made a few blues. Which he did. Two. In comparison with blokes around him he made many more or the person who would replace in the team who would make a lot more - even if he was able to get to the footy - it was nothing. But such are the standards that such players set themselves that to display the faults of ordinary players is a sign to give the game away. And to some extent we don't mind that. No-one wants to see a champ humiliated on the ground. With Nick, despite a bung knee, he continues to be our best player. He clearly has greater aeorobic capacity that any other player in our team and most of the rest in the AFL. His marking ability is as good as any player in the AFL. He still has his skills. But more than anything else, it has been his leadership around, and for, the club that stands out. For 20 players in 1966, a point made all the difference as it did for 22 players in 2010. Because of that, the fact that someone played in a flag is of little influence on me when judging our best player. I will look at all of the factors.

Whilst I am hopeful that the best Saints player of all time is yet to play a game, up to date, it is hard to go past Nick.

Best post so far in this thread......IMHFO

[Stephen Theodore]

The first game I saw was in 1960, so I never saw the players who went before - that's over 60 years of Saints players - some of whom would have been champs. That's a bias that is inbuilt. My father said Billy Mohr was the best player he had seen. Harold Bray was always in the top ten of the Brownlow count and, according to Roy Wright who won it twice, was the best player of his era. Brian Gleeson was said to be most skilled and won a Brownlow while just 22. He was appointed captain for the next season but did his knee in a practice game and never played again. He would have been a handy 29yo in the 1963 finals series.

I did see Big Carl's debut match at the Junction Oval in 1963 which was also Ian Stewart's debut game. Darrel Baldock came the year before, as did Ross Oakley. They all had exceptional skills and courage that had to be seen to believed. But Stewie won us more games - if it wasn't for him we would never have won a flag and I wouldn't have seen Bob Murray win it for us in the last 10 seconds.

I saw John McIntosh mesmerise the opposition with his skills. One play still remains in my memory, a story worth telling again, - a game out at Windy Hill, not a happy hunting ground. He marked the ball on the left forward flank and turned to his left (away form the boundary) to shot for goal on his right. However, an Essendon opponent behind him moved to block his path. McIntosh then went onto his left foot, to the boundary line and drop kicked the ball through the centre from about 45 metres. The ground shook from the Essendon players' jaws hitting the ground. We went on to win the game easily. Another knee injury, another flag lost.

Of that era, I rated the skills of Ian Stewart and John McIntosh around the same level as those of Bob Skilton, alas, not one of our players. It was no fluke that he won 3 BMs. He was 3cm shorter than Jack Lonie. He could kick either foot 50 metres, handball either hand 20 metres and take a speccy. And, he had pace. Not a bad package.

George Young was skillful but our next really skillful player was Plugger. As we saw quite graphically recently, throughout the entirety of his career, Plugger was never fit - sometimes nowhere near it. But he had foot and hand skills that were unsurpassed and was a perfect judge of a mark. Robert Harvey joined him, and although not as gifted in the skills department, set the standard for dedication to fitness for every footballer who has followed him. He changed the game.

Joel Smith had exquisite skills and could have been anything. Did his knee and was never quite the same, but at least they were able now fix it for him to play on (alas with Hawthorn).

Which brings us to Nick Riewoldt. I can remember Robert Harvey saying in his last year when interviewed after a game when he was BOG that he had made a few blues. Which he did. Two. In comparison with blokes around him he made many more or the person who would replace in the team who would make a lot more - even if he was able to get to the footy - it was nothing. But such are the standards that such players set themselves that to display the faults of ordinary players is a sign to give the game away. And to some extent we don't mind that. No-one wants to see a champ humiliated on the ground. With Nick, despite a bung knee, he continues to be our best player. He clearly has greater aeorobic capacity that any other player in our team and most of the rest in the AFL. His marking ability is as good as any player in the AFL. He still has his skills. But more than anything else, it has been his leadership around, and for, the club that stands out. For 20 players in 1966, a point made all the difference as it did for 22 players in 2010. Because of that, the fact that someone played in a flag is of little influence on me when judging our best player. I will look at all of the factors.

Whilst I am hopeful that the best Saints player of all time is yet to play a game, up to date, it is hard to go past Nick.

Best post so far in this thread......IMHFO

Agree

[BigMart]

See I hate that post!!

It does what is the common perception/misconception of R.Harveys actual skill set

Down plays his ability, and again refers to his aerobic fitness as a reason he was any good?
Even suggest he is not skilled??

Have we not watched his highlights, yes he got to a lot of contests, which in itself is a quality but his ability to find the footy, use the ball creatively and effectively was unbelievable! His ball handling in traffick was ridiculous at 18 and still was at 37

What is skill?

Winning the ball and executing effectively. It's that simple.

It's not aesthetic, it's not having a booming kick or being able to take a big mark... or we'd consider Matt Suckling or Jeremy Howe a stars... it's what you contribute to the scoreboard!
Players who look nice, but don't do enough (like Billings) have nowhere near as much AFL skill as a guy who consistently dominates .... To me Harvey, Cousins, Ablett, Judd, Mitchell, Buckley, Black, Hayes, Crawford, Pendlebury, Kennedy, Dangerfield are the absolute cream players... not players who are good at performing A skills.... btw yes they are all mids. Easier for comparison sake. Getting a kick is a far more important skill than having a nice looking kick.

Also you cannot use a the argument of how good somebody could have been if only?... to determine their performance, can you?
They either did or did not.... factors come into play, but if injury, suspenion or whatever effected their career... then it effected their total output... so be it

[saynta]

Nice to see that we all agree ,well mostly, on the top 5 players in the past 56 or 57 years.

Even if we can't and never will, agree on their relative ranking.

Roo's story is still being written though and his place amongst our all time greats is yet to be ultimately determined.

The question wasnt who was the best player by the way.