Free kick count Approved

[White Winmar]

I reckon we should adopt the EPL model. Let the coaches go absolutely bananas on the umpires, on everything from terrorism to dodgy free kicks. Arsene Wenger recently blamed the referees for Arsenal going down 10-1 (on aggregate) in the Europa league. Comic gold! Seriously though, there is no other public sphere where a group is offered blanket immunity from criticism. Everyone else in the game cops criticism, some of it justified, most of it not.

I appreciate how difficult the game is to umpire. With a gigantic playing field, 36 players and the tremendous pace of the game, it ain't a picnic. I've only umpired one game in my life and that was an intra club praccy match when I was coach. I was terrible, a fact I was constantly reminded of by the players, who also accused me of playing favourites. So you even cop it when you're all on the same side!

Constructive criticism is a key factor in improvement. I find it hard to believe they don't look at the "missed" frees. I think they do a reasonable job most of the time. Saturday night was not one of them. The sad thing was, it was entirely predictable. The longitudinal stats over time don't lie. Look up Desert Saint's post. It's been happening for years. Time for the Humper to look at the reasons why. It's not a statistical anomaly. It is a statistically significant, long term pattern. Houston, we have a problem, even if the AFL doesn't acknowledge it. I would set the most underworked organisation in the world, the AFL Integrity Unit to work on it and start earning its money. With all the suspicion around betting and outcomes of games these days, it's only a matter of time a disgruntled punter takes the on the AFL and its Koalas.

[loris]

I reckon we should adopt the EPL model. Let the coaches go absolutely bananas on the umpires, on everything from terrorism to dodgy free kicks. Arsene Wenger recently blamed the referees for Arsenal going down 10-1 (on aggregate) in the Europa league. Comic gold! Seriously though, there is no other public sphere where a group is offered blanket immunity from criticism. Everyone else in the game cops criticism, some of it justified, most of it not.

I appreciate how difficult the game is to umpire. With a gigantic playing field, 36 players and the tremendous pace of the game, it ain't a picnic. I've only umpired one game in my life and that was an intra club praccy match when I was coach. I was terrible, a fact I was constantly reminded of by the players, who also accused me of playing favourites. So you even cop it when you're all on the same side!

Constructive criticism is a key factor in improvement. I find it hard to believe they don't look at the "missed" frees. I think they do a reasonable job most of the time. Saturday night was not one of them. The sad thing was, it was entirely predictable. The longitudinal stats over time don't lie. Look up Desert Saint's post. It's been happening for years. Time for the Humper to look at the reasons why. It's not a statistical anomaly. It is a statistically significant, long term pattern. Houston, we have a problem, even if the AFL doesn't acknowledge it. I would set the most underworked organisation in the world, the AFL Integrity Unit to work on it and start earning its money. With all the suspicion around betting and outcomes of games these days, it's only a matter of time a disgruntled punter takes the on the AFL and its Koalas.

Your final sentence WW is most pertinent ........... does the AFL think that umpires are immune from the tentacles of the gaming industry.?

As Scott & Richo said on 360.......... It's (discrepancies in frees at Subiaco) been an issue for years, for most clubs v Eagles. The AFL and umpires are aware of it, haven't known how to overcome it, or haven't welcomed input/ideas on why.

Richo in his measured way has bought it out in the open and as Scott says, The discussion HAS to happen now.

Richo's 'noise of affirmantion', isn't a dumb hypothesis , it needs to be qualitatively and quantitatively researched, not just dismissed as a coach with an improbable idea.

Now there's a little Psych project to get your teeth (preferably brain) into White Winmar. The noise of affirmation/ The silence of affirmation. Let's get behind our coach and test his hypothesis. Yeah/nah????

[GoSaintersGo]

We all know that the free kick count at Subi has favoured the Weagles for years. I wonder though, if in recent years, if any game against the Weagles has seen their opposition receive NO free kicks in the first quarter and 2 free kicks in the second quarter as was the case with the Sainters.
For the umps to see only 2 free kicks to one team in a half of football indicates that something's wrong as NO TEAM (Weagles) is good enough to give 2 frees away in that time.
At half time, I wonder if the question as to why could be put to the umps for them to respond.

[loris]

We all know that the free kick count at Subi has favoured the Weagles for years. I wonder though, if in recent years, if any game against the Weagles has seen their opposition receive NO free kicks in the first quarter and 2 free kicks in the second quarter as was the case with the Sainters.
For the umps to see only 2 free kicks to one team in a half of football indicates that something's wrong as NO TEAM (Weagles) is good enough to give 2 frees away in that time.
At half time, I wonder if the question as to why could be put to the umps for them to respond.

At half time GSG as the players were leaving the field, Geary and Joey were in an animated conversation with 2 of the field umpires. A few of us at the game, assumed it was about the free kick count, however, we were a bit concerned that Saints might receive nil free kicks after half time if Gears & Joey didn't let up!!

[Moods]

I'm sooo frustraed about the headlines being about he free kick count. It makes us look like fools. I'm not interested in the free kick count I'm more interested in the consistency of decisions. One minute it's push in the back, the next it's not. One minute it's deliberate OOB the next it's not. One minute you're allowed to duck your head, the next your not. Each time the WC received the benefit.

The narrative of the game and the umpires portrays us (supporters) as whingers I reckon. The media have missed the point completely and honed in on the count. It's the frees missed that the opposition received that has frustrated everyone. To compare us to Bulldogs/Swans game is very frustrating.

[Johnny Member]

I'm sooo frustraed about the headlines being about he free kick count. It makes us look like fools. I'm not interested in the free kick count I'm more interested in the consistency of decisions. One minute it's push in the back, the next it's not. One minute it's deliberate OOB the next it's not. One minute you're allowed to duck your head, the next your not. Each time the WC received the benefit.

The narrative of the game and the umpires portrays us (supporters) as whingers I reckon. The media have missed the point completely and honed in on the count. It's the frees missed that the opposition received that has frustrated everyone. To compare us to Bulldogs/Swans game is very frustrating.

Agreed.

[CURLY]

If we kick straight and the umpires reem us are we allowed to question them?

[prwilkinson]

As if it was ever going to be anything other than acceptable from the AFL. They're f**king pathetic.

[saint6709]

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/a ... vcsyr.html

So they dont explicitly train umpires about home ground biases?
That is extraordinary. A tin pot league masquerading as professional.

+1

I don't know what all the fuss is about - after the weekend the umpires got together to umpire the umpires umpiring and they umpired that the umpires umpire ok - well I'm convinced ! I am just so glad they shared the results with us otherwise we might be thinking there was a problem with the umpiring

[Con Gorozidis]

If we kick straight and the umpires reem us are we allowed to question them?

Nope
If we kick crooked we can't question them because we kicked crooked.
If we kick straight we also can't query them.
The whole thing is crooked.

[White Winmar]

Simples! What were we thinking. Nothing to see here. Carry on!

[ace]

Clearly Hayden Kennedy is a <deleted in anticipation of deletion by mods>!!!!!

Hahahahaha That's very responsible of you to censor your own profanity before the mods, EM.

Most <deleted in anticipation of deletion by mods>!!!!! are not as dishonest as Hayden Kennedy.

[saynta]

Clearly Hayden Kennedy is a <deleted in anticipation of deletion by mods>!!!!!

Have you ever met someone named Hayden who you could like or trust. I certainly haven't.

The video of several decisions that didn't go our way shown on 360 last night surely put the lie to the bulls*** spewed out of Kennedy's mouth.

[st.byron]

Interesting to read in the Richo on 360 thread that he reckons it's not the frees that are paid paid, it's the ones that aren't paid against the Weagles because of the crowd influence.

He calls it the "noise of affirmation" and thinks it influences the upmires directly. No doubt in my mind. The free kick count at Subiaco has been ludicrous for years.

http://www.saints.com.au/news/2017-04-0 ... ffirmation

[Saints43]

Interesting to read in the Richo on 360 thread that he reckons it's not the frees that are paid paid, it's the ones that aren't paid against the Weagles because of the crowd influence.

He calls it the "noise of affirmation" and thinks it influences the upmires directly. No doubt in my mind. The free kick count at Subiaco has been ludicrous for years.

http://www.saints.com.au/news/2017-04-0 ... ffirmation

So why don't we get the same result when we play interstate teams at Docklands? It must be something more than that...

[saintbrat]

Former Umpire provides an alternative view
http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/w ... vdu6g.html

Sometimes a winning team will win the free-kick count because they are first to the ball and draw more free kicks. Sometimes a winning team will lose the free-kick count because they are more aggressive and fired up. No game is the same and nor should a free-kick count be.

I've officiated at every AFL venue and I can assure you that most of the time you don't hear the noise of the crowd until the decision is made. The whistle is already at the umpire's mouth by the time the sound gets reaches your ears. If there is subconsciously one per cent of influence by the home crowd, then deal with it. You have employed humans, not robots. These guys are the most elite umpires in the country with 100 per cent integrity.

[magnifisaint]

I say bulls*** to Jordan Bannister. He is just biased to wards the umpires. You can't dispute facts. Richo is spot on with his assessment. Bannister is a fool who couldn't take the heat so he quit.

[White Winmar]

Former Umpire provides an alternative view
http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/w ... vdu6g.html

Sometimes a winning team will win the free-kick count because they are first to the ball and draw more free kicks. Sometimes a winning team will lose the free-kick count because they are more aggressive and fired up. No game is the same and nor should a free-kick count be.

I've officiated at every AFL venue and I can assure you that most of the time you don't hear the noise of the crowd until the decision is made. The whistle is already at the umpire's mouth by the time the sound gets reaches your ears. If there is subconsciously one per cent of influence by the home crowd, then deal with it. You have employed humans, not robots. These guys are the most elite umpires in the country with 100 per cent integrity.

What a load of AFL approved bulls***!

[samoht]

The fear of having to deal with a hostile home crowd must be playing on the umpire's mind, even before they make a decision one way or the other?
So when there's a free kick to be paid against West Coast - they would be reluctant to blow the whistle on anything other than a blatant infringement - they might be affording them (West Coast) - consciously or subconsciously - more wiggle room for interpretation?
I mean a measly 8 free kicks to us over the course of a whole game suggests this could (or must) be happening?

My (lame) hypothesis - as others have similarly posted.

[saint64]

Yeo was beside himself when a free kick was paid against him - what! at Subi?, in the forward line?, against the Eagles?!!!!

[shrodes]

Yeo was beside himself when a free kick was paid against him - what! at Subi?, in the forward line?, against the Eagles?!!!!

Noticed that, thought that if that was one of our guys, they probably would have paid 50m for arguing with the umpire.

[kosifantutti]

Former Umpire provides an alternative view
http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/w ... vdu6g.html

Sometimes a winning team will win the free-kick count because they are first to the ball and draw more free kicks. Sometimes a winning team will lose the free-kick count because they are more aggressive and fired up. No game is the same and nor should a free-kick count be.

I've officiated at every AFL venue and I can assure you that most of the time you don't hear the noise of the crowd until the decision is made. The whistle is already at the umpire's mouth by the time the sound gets reaches your ears. If there is subconsciously one per cent of influence by the home crowd, then deal with it. You have employed humans, not robots. These guys are the most elite umpires in the country with 100 per cent integrity.

So it was mostly about the Eagles and home town decisions but when he went to specific examples, there was nothing from the Eagles game.

[saynta]

I say bulls*** to Jordan Bannister. He is just biased to wards the umpires. You can't dispute facts. Richo is spot on with his assessment. Bannister is a fool who couldn't take the heat so he quit.

Yep, after reading that I have come to the conclusion that Bannister is a flog and all the maggots are in collusion when it comes to any criticsm of them

You only have to look at the vision shown on 360 last night to realize that the saints were bent over and rheemed by twits like him.

[Con Gorozidis]

Former Umpire provides an alternative view
http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/w ... vdu6g.html

Sometimes a winning team will win the free-kick count because they are first to the ball and draw more free kicks. Sometimes a winning team will lose the free-kick count because they are more aggressive and fired up. No game is the same and nor should a free-kick count be.

I've officiated at every AFL venue and I can assure you that most of the time you don't hear the noise of the crowd until the decision is made. The whistle is already at the umpire's mouth by the time the sound gets reaches your ears. If there is subconsciously one per cent of influence by the home crowd, then deal with it. You have employed humans, not robots. These guys are the most elite umpires in the country with 100 per cent integrity.

So it was mostly about the Eagles and home town decisions but when he went to specific examples, there was nothing from the Eagles game.

The guy is an idiot!
The issue with the noise isn't that umpires react directly to the noise at that exact time or before the decision.
The issue with the noise is a 'Pavlov's dogs' issue where giving a home team a free gets a 'cheer' and giving an way team a free gets a 'boo'. So the Umps are conditioned to want to receive the cheer and are adverse to receiving the boo.
This guy has completely misunderstood the concept.

1) The noise hypothesis is that the POST decision noise influences decisions.
2) This idiot talks about PRE decision noise and says it doesnt influence the the decision.

Noone ever said that pre-decision noise was an issue. This is called a straw man.

[Con Gorozidis]

Former Umpire provides an alternative view
http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/w ... vdu6g.html

Sometimes a winning team will win the free-kick count because they are first to the ball and draw more free kicks. Sometimes a winning team will lose the free-kick count because they are more aggressive and fired up. No game is the same and nor should a free-kick count be.

I've officiated at every AFL venue and I can assure you that most of the time you don't hear the noise of the crowd until the decision is made. The whistle is already at the umpire's mouth by the time the sound gets reaches your ears. If there is subconsciously one per cent of influence by the home crowd, then deal with it. You have employed humans, not robots. These guys are the most elite umpires in the country with 100 per cent integrity.

What a load of AFL approved bulls***!

+ 1