Running Defenders - Our Achilles Heel

[Johnny Member]

I don't want this to be a Shane Savage bashing post, because it's not intended to be that.

But....

Our half-back line (to use an old, outdated term) is where our problems lie.


We play a pretty dour midfield, with Dunstan, Armitage and Ross in there most of the time. Steven is the only guy with ping and line breaking ability. Many supporters see this as a huge liability and the cause of our woes last week, and a genuine chink in our armour. It is of course, but I don't think it's the real issue.

A lot of teams don't actually have lots of speed and 'play making' directly in the middle. Some do, which certainly isn't a bad thing - but many have a similar setup to us with bigger bodies trying to either nullify the contest, or hold their position in order to feed the pill out to runners coming from the half back line.


I think that's where we fall down. Both from clearances, but in particular from setting up attacks from the back half.


I hate watching the Saints play, in a true football sense. We always look sloppy, rough around the edges and haphazard. The 'cleanness' just isn't there. It almost looks like we score by accident.

The times though, when we do look polished, clean and appear to have a real purpose and a sense of cohesion - is when Shane Savage is getting the ball and using it well. When he's getting it and not under pressure, suddenly the Seb Ross' of the world somehow seem to find space and the Armitage's appear to look like really valuable link up midfielders through the middle.

The problem is, it only ever happens in patches.



Savage just isn't good enough. And Webster isn't either.


Compare these two to Johannisen and Murphy. Or Johannisen and Boyd.

Or Rampi and Mills. Or Rampi and McVeigh.

Or Hodge and Birchall. Or Hodge and Burgoyne.

Or Shaw and Wilson and Williams.


I read this snippet last year after GWS beat us:

Half-backs Shaw, Nathan Wilson and Zac Williams were influential with a combined 20 rebound 50s, with 12 of the GIANTS’ 19 goals coming from scoring chains that started in the back half.

"No doubt when Williams or Wilson can win one-on-ones and turn defence into offense really, really quickly it can catch the opposition off," Cameron said post-match.

"I think the game is actually taking us that way. Everyone would love to have really good running backs because it can help you score … our guys are in pretty good form."



It's the same reason that Richmond win when Deledio plays. Otherwise, it's just Houli doing it, and he's not quite up to it. It's also why they tried Martin back there.




So the way I see it, is that we have Savage, Webster and Roberton in that type of role. Roberton I think does it more out of natural ability, in the sense that he wins the pill and has to use it - as opposed to getting the handball receive to set up offense from our D50 like the other two.

Montagna also plays that role.


But that's just not good enough for mine. When I talk about our lack of talent, this highlights for me. All the good teams have genuinely good users and accumulators in these roles - we don't. Granted, our backline has been decimated for the best part of a decade so there hasn't been a huge amount of handball receiving going on in our D50 which makes it hard to accumulate. We haven't had the luxury of allowing a Savage to peel off early for the handball receive knowing that a defender will win the contest.

Especially given the way we're trying to play, and the cattle we have in the middle. This role is vital.


The Dogs battled without Johannisen last year. They still had an AA in Boyd back there doing it whilst Johannisen was out, but their 'game plan' wasn't quite cutting it until they had run from Johannisen off half back.


Now I'm guessing here, and making some assumptions, but if Richardson is like the 17 other coaches he will have certain roles that are being carried out by certain players. The role won't change - but the player carrying it out can, and will. There's been plenty of talk on here about blooding young guys, in particular in the midfield. But for mine, we need to be trying to unearth someone, somewhere, that can step in to that running back role and force either Savage, Montagna or Webster out.


Until we get a Rhys Shaw, a Johannisen, a Burgoyne or someone of that premiership ilk, we're going to struggle. We have other holes in our list in terms of talent - but I think the running back needs to be our number 1 priority in both the immediate and long term.

[skeptic]

Fantastic post

I'm hoping that they play Long as a HBF rather than a pocket as IMO he has all the attributes you mention

100% agree with your concerns RE Savage, and personally am unsure about Webster too

[Bluthy]

Is Heath Shaw that quick? He's got a bit of zip initially to get him out of traffic and let him use his good kicking - that's a really valuable tool. Gram and Aussie Jones were like that. Some of those great kicking half-backs have that stocky frame which gives them a really stable base to kick from.

They aren't running backs per se but the guys I keep going on about are White and Rice. Both are great kicks. White in particularly is a powerful penetrating kick similar to Billings. Rice is a little bit more up and under but still accurate and can kick long. Even more importantly both have shows signs of having great vision - a huge skill in AFL footy - being able to spot guys open down the field or on a lead and actually hit them. That opens play up and gets the defenders running backwards. White played one game last year and his game scaled up to AFL brilliantly. For me, I'd get him in the team asap. But of course he had one to many Mars Bars over chrissie apparently so that seems to have ruled him out for a while. I think White and Rice won't be super quick from what I've seen but they have enough initial pace to get them out of traffic where they can use the brilliant kicking.

LIke Skeptic said Long could be one with the dash and x-factor from the backline. He apparently grew up playing the run and gun role from the back before becoming a forward for Footscray. McKenzie has shown a bit of toe and good marking for his size but not great decision making and kicking under pressure. Ed Phillips is a guy I'd keep an eye on. Coming in the top of the running tests as a draftee was amazing. I've heard he's pretty clean with the ball.

It seems like the new generation of players have been picked because they are good with the ball. I would be looking at getting more of them in the team to at least try as our overall kicking and ability to keep the ball is poor. When our chain ball movement breaks down, we don't really have a fallback. We need smarter, higher footy-IQ players in the team who can do that one-on-one style you say JM and they mostly seem to be in our younger brigage. These money-ball types like Savage and Weller seem to be hitting a ceiling. Maybe we need to go backwards this year, to really storm forward the next few years.

[Myron Gaines]

Mckenzie is the line breaking, evasive half back we need to elevate himself. For his to occur: 1) Mckenzie needs to run to the right places to receive the footy: 2) his teammates need the confidence to dish off to him.

[White Winmar]

Great post, JM. Nail. Hit.Head. Another area Melbourne killed us in. The nine man defence sweeping forward gave them numbers around the ball and options that made it look like they had a dozen midfielders, another reason we were so badly beaten there. I hope in the medium to long term, DMac and Ben Long become the sort of player you describe. Newnes is another one who would be suitable. His kicking is good enough. White another one. While we have all of Gilbert, Savage, Brown and Geary all together down there, we will struggle for the reasons you outlined.

[dragit]

It's definitely a weakness, but I don't think you can leave it to two players to create the run…

This was our problem in the Lyon era, where we had a couple of designated ball users out of defence and the rest were stoppers.

The best defenders of all sizes will take a mark when it's appropriate and also kick the ball with confidence.

The dogs defence has great run from Johannisen, Murphy, Suckling etc, but the guys around them are also guns… Wood, Morris and even Adams who can't break into the side… they all take the game on, go for marks and use the ball well.

This is what makes a Nathan Brown such a downgrade on a player like Sam Fisher, who may be shorter and lose a few marking contests but is actually involved in the play rather than purely stopping someone.

Same for Gears who is a great stopper, but some sides have a Johannisen or Burgoyne running around in the same position.

I wonder if we'll make a play for Jasper Pittard this year who is a free agent if we can't land a bigger fish, people often say we are stacked with back flankers but Pittard is comfortably better than our current options.

[barwon saint]

Jasper a saint supporter growing up comes from Torquay. His dad played for Saints in the ressies

[degruch]

Poor Robbo...he's virtually invisible it would seem. But yes, I get your point. It's not as if we haven't tried to recruit enough of them!

[saintsRrising]

Generally a good OP

We Savage got free in games we have looked good. But opposition coaches know this and so try and shut him down.

That we have in some games had too many defenders that cannot use the ball well is a problem as the opposition can then clamp down more on our better users of the ball. ie Opposition coaches will leave Geary free so we go through him.

It is also why Billings has been used behind the more more to try and give us another avenue to attack more with. Though Billings is nota running hb and more plays as someone we get the ball to.




PS: Lids is at GWS now.

It's the same reason that Richmond win when Deledio plays. Otherwise, it's just Houli doing it, and he's not quite up to it. It's also why they tried Martin back there.

[SaintPav]

Isn't Pittard's disposal suspect? I wouldn't rate him an elite user which you need to carry out what JM is referring to.

He's an upgrade on Jimmy Webster who just had his first senior game in 9.5 months.

[longtimesaint]

I think McKenzie has the speed and ability to be that type of player but needs to improve his disposal.
Also Johannisen has put off contract talks and we might be well placed to go after him.

[Griggsy]

Been a while since we would see a player go for a decent trot on the wing from half back regularly, maybe not since peake?

One of the review shows had a break down of dogs/pies, essentially it was that initial run or short pass to get close to the zone and then just smash it over the top. Something we have the perfect forward line for, we just need to execute it or the zone pushes further back and we end up with high loopy kicks to Bruce and co

[Con Gorozidis]

Zac Williams ia an absolute star.

[mad saint guy]

In our successful era of '04-'10 we had some of the best rebounding defenders in the comp. Aussie Jones, Jason Gram, Sam Fisher and even for a brief period Sam Gilbert were absolutely elite. We don't have anyone to that standard right now though Roberton is certainly capable of being part of an elite rebounding team. If we could snag a Nick Haynes type that would go a long way towards our top four effort.

Obviously if any of Rice, McKenzie, White, Webster or Savage can elevate themselves to the elite level that would be brilliant but none of them have really shown any 'star' factor yet. Rice looks like a solid but slow small defender, McKenzie an awesome athlete but not sure if he's a footballer while Webster and Savage are GOPs with fairly moderate ceilings. We haven't seen a lot of White but he's obviously got a way to go. I wouldn't mind seeing Newnes go back to defence because I don't think he's really a point-of-difference player in the midfield like Acres could be.

[lewdogs]

Really interesting thread. I think it's been assumed because we have such a glut of these types of players that we will automatically unearth several guns and everything will be fine.

I really rate Roberton; he's a good mark, good run, makes good decisions, good kick. But who goes with him.

You are spot on a about Savage, he comes in and out of games too much. When we kick it around in defence at times we look really slow and predictable. Savage's kicking can be a weapon and when he's good we are good, but you're right in that he is too inconsistent. I really like Webster too although he was disappointing last week.

I am interested to see what Brandon White can do, but he is very young and his progress seems to have slowed a little. Ditto D Mac.

It's interesting that a lot of those gun half-backs that you mentioned are older players. Montagna obviously performed the role very well for us last year and perhaps we will see his importance to the side this week. Then in time, perhaps it will be players such as Newnes or Armo that are transitioned into the position.

I think you're spot on in identifying this as an issue though, kudos.

[Myron Gaines]

I'm bloody sick of Savage kicking out from goal. Always kicks to a pack & rarely spots up a target. Thank god Joey is back to take up the kick outs.

[SaintPav]

I'm bloody sick of Savage kicking out from goal. Always kicks to a pack & rarely spots up a target. Thank god Joey is back to take up the kick outs.

Saw Brown kick out a few times last week and thought wtf.

We have never been the same since BJ and Dal left.

[BigMart]

I don't think that's the problem

I think it's our three stodgy mids... All left footers that don't win enough footy

A good midfield needs to win 150 possesions between 6 of them, that allows HBs to attack with more confidence

Jack 28
Seb 26

Armo 22
Luke 17
Jack N 22
Nick R 21

That's 136

Last year

Seb is down on last year, Nick played forward ... Billings went in...

last week then numbers were worse... we were slaughtered by their midfield

[Con Gorozidis]

I don't think that's the problem

I think it's our three stodgy mids... All left footers that don't win enough footy

A good midfield needs to win 150 possesions between 6 of them, that allows HBs to attack with more confidence

Jack 28
Seb 26

Armo 22
Luke 17
Jack N 22
Nick R 21

That's 136

Last year

Seb is down on last year, Nick played forward ... Billings went in...

last week then numbers were worse... we were slaughtered by their midfield

I tend to agree.
And before anyone says the numbers don't tell the full story and that we need to look at quality of possession.
If we look at quality the picture gets worse.
So we need to win more ball for starters.
And on top of that, use it better.
Our midfield is our main issue imo.
I'd play Acres every week.

[Myron Gaines]

I'm bloody sick of Savage kicking out from goal. Always kicks to a pack & rarely spots up a target. Thank god Joey is back to take up the kick outs.

Saw Brown kick out a few times last week and thought wtf.

We have never been the same since BJ and Dal left.

It might be worth chucking Billings down half back. He could take most kick outs & be a damaging half back flanker. It's not like he's hitting the scoreboard that often being played wing/forward.

[MC Gusto]

Robbo white and Mckenzie should all be good running hbf type players. Think steak knives is becoming a liability.

Agree with bm tho - we need more from our mids

[borderbarry]

We are never going to know until we play these younger players. We should be getting games into Dmac, White and co. What is the point of playing these older slower players every week.

[BigMart]

They need to earn their spot

You don't get a game because you're young

[Johnny Member]

Interestingly, Roberton stepped up into this role and his form seemed to be our barometer.

Since the GWS game where our hand was revealed in terms of Roberton's influence - he's been tagged. Funnily enough, we've looked s*** and impotent offensively.

Losing Webster hasn't helped.


I still, more than ever, think this role is our problem.

[To the top]

We have played Montagna in our defensive half for a reason

Both of our 194cm support defenders provide rebound with Roberton the most effective because he can use both feet

And either of our 194cm support defenders can take a JPP forward in case of need

So that gives good cover and spread

Brown and Carlisle are given as KPP's and required

So we go to the remainder, including the need to reinvent Montagna

We need not only elite AFL defensive abilities from the remainder, we need also the ability to impact offensively whenever such opportunity occurs

If we have to feed say Montagna we are in trouble because he will be subjected to very close attention

The remainder are Webster, Geary, Savage, White, Rice and Newnes can support

We were missing all of the above from our side on Saturday

Except Geary

And Montagna who found no space

And McKenzie

Our hopes are with White, McKenzie, maybe Rice along with the return of Newnes and Webster to address the most obvious deficiency from our loss to Sydney

We must have players in our defensive half we want the ball in the hands of

The jury is still out on all of our options and we look for hands to be put up , quickly