We're Just Not Good Enough

[skeptic]

Being from the overly optimistic side of the fence (for once)... there's nothing wrong with what JM has posted.

The key theme here is improvement and whether that big list of promising players we've recruited take that next step up ok to good, to maybe even great for a few of them.

[Johnny Member]

laughed this crap off as soon as the OP started writing off a 20 year old KPF who has great hands......no clue

Wrote him off??

Maybe have another read.

[asiu]

... there is more to a football club than just having the best 40 players.

yep
continually unappreciated that point for some reason
... its not the size of the dog etc etc

(the puppies of '16 a ripper energetic expression of the wisdom)

+
haven't spent our cash or extra pick yet
haven't quite become the 'story' players wanna be part of , yet
haven't started march'n with momentum yet
(onfield or off)

the reward of patience is patience

all is well and all shall be well ... imo fwtw

i'm in enjoyment already for the coming seasons
carn the footy

Go Us.

[The Fireman]

I'll ask again, will the OP reconsider if we make the 8

[saynta]

Ok, I'll admit it - I'm cynical about our prospects this season and beyond.


We haven't drafted well.


There. I said it.



Seeing Billings let an 18yo first gamer brush him aside with a feeble tackling attempt last week highlighted the flaws in his game. Zero physical presence is Ok - if you make up for it in spades at the other end of your game. But Billings doesn't. His offensive game is Ok. Nothing more.

Now granted, he hasn't even played 50 games yet and could well be a late bloomer (compared with the development of Bontempelli and Petracca for example) but until then there's a genuine case to be very disappointed in what a Pick 3 has produced for us.

Then there's McCartin. I like him, but I don't like the way he's being played to be honest. I don't really understand why you'd spend Pick on a lead-up half forward. I understand why you'd overlook Petracca and his obvious abundance of talent for a key forward with the number 1 Pick - but not for a high half forward.


I posted about this last year with a theory on why Bruce and McCartin drop what appear to be easy-ish marks. I noticed that they go too 'flat handed' at the ball instead of spreading their fingers in the more traditional and effective way. My theory was that they were being instructed to bring the ball to the front of the contest as their first priority - actually marking the pill is an afterthought. But the absolute rule is to not let the ball through the back.

McCartin did this really blatantly last week. He actually went up in the contest and his 'flat hands' were so obvious that it looked almost like a volleyball spike!


Now that's fine. These guys are sacrificing their own stats for the team. I'm not sure I agree with it (assuming my theory is correct!) but it's a team first strategy and I have problem with that.

But it does pose thew question as to whether or not you need a number 1 Pick to do that?? If you want a workhorse that leads up and down the ground 100 times each week bringing the ball to ground - surely that's a role for the Commodore, not the Ferrari!



But I digress.....


My point is that we've been to the well, so to speak. We've handed over guys like Goddard and Dal Santo to load on draft picks. We've used the picks we received to get players from other clubs, but moreso to get young pearls from the draft. As a result we bottomed out and had 2 x top 3 picks in succession.

I just don't think it's worked, sadly.

We didn't get a Selwood. A Bont. A Judd. A Reiwoldt.

And that's we needed. It's what everyone needs.

Instead, we got a Curren, a Templeton, a Sinclair, a Newnes etc. etc.


So as we improve naturally (as guys get to that 50-100 game mark) there seems to be an expectation that the improvement trend will continue infinitely. But I have my doubts. I'd argue that outside of Gresham and last year's draftees - no one else will get much better than they will be this season.


I'm not worried about the Port game, as I have another theory that we put in the cue in the rack at half time and trialled our defense. I think we actually set up to put the defense under as much extended pressure as we could to give them time to work together and get used to each other. All in all, they did quite well.

I would expect they'll do the same tomorrow too.


But what we really, really need to see is a few guys show us that this year they'll become freakishly good. We need another 2-3 at Jack Steven' level if we're going to improve enough over the next couple of seasons to seriously compete.


Acres? McCartin? Billings? Gresham? Freeman? Carlisle?


This isn't a knock on our recruiters necessarily - as looking at the drafts that I've flagged above, aside from the Bont and Petracca there's nothing glaring jumping out at us that we missed badly. It's just that at this stage, I don't believe we've brought in the required talent to be a genuine top 4 team.

What a difference a week can make.

[Johnny Member]

Ok, I'll admit it - I'm cynical about our prospects this season and beyond.


We haven't drafted well.


There. I said it.



Seeing Billings let an 18yo first gamer brush him aside with a feeble tackling attempt last week highlighted the flaws in his game. Zero physical presence is Ok - if you make up for it in spades at the other end of your game. But Billings doesn't. His offensive game is Ok. Nothing more.

Now granted, he hasn't even played 50 games yet and could well be a late bloomer (compared with the development of Bontempelli and Petracca for example) but until then there's a genuine case to be very disappointed in what a Pick 3 has produced for us.

Then there's McCartin. I like him, but I don't like the way he's being played to be honest. I don't really understand why you'd spend Pick on a lead-up half forward. I understand why you'd overlook Petracca and his obvious abundance of talent for a key forward with the number 1 Pick - but not for a high half forward.


I posted about this last year with a theory on why Bruce and McCartin drop what appear to be easy-ish marks. I noticed that they go too 'flat handed' at the ball instead of spreading their fingers in the more traditional and effective way. My theory was that they were being instructed to bring the ball to the front of the contest as their first priority - actually marking the pill is an afterthought. But the absolute rule is to not let the ball through the back.

McCartin did this really blatantly last week. He actually went up in the contest and his 'flat hands' were so obvious that it looked almost like a volleyball spike!


Now that's fine. These guys are sacrificing their own stats for the team. I'm not sure I agree with it (assuming my theory is correct!) but it's a team first strategy and I have problem with that.

But it does pose thew question as to whether or not you need a number 1 Pick to do that?? If you want a workhorse that leads up and down the ground 100 times each week bringing the ball to ground - surely that's a role for the Commodore, not the Ferrari!



But I digress.....


My point is that we've been to the well, so to speak. We've handed over guys like Goddard and Dal Santo to load on draft picks. We've used the picks we received to get players from other clubs, but moreso to get young pearls from the draft. As a result we bottomed out and had 2 x top 3 picks in succession.

I just don't think it's worked, sadly.

We didn't get a Selwood. A Bont. A Judd. A Reiwoldt.

And that's we needed. It's what everyone needs.

Instead, we got a Curren, a Templeton, a Sinclair, a Newnes etc. etc.


So as we improve naturally (as guys get to that 50-100 game mark) there seems to be an expectation that the improvement trend will continue infinitely. But I have my doubts. I'd argue that outside of Gresham and last year's draftees - no one else will get much better than they will be this season.


I'm not worried about the Port game, as I have another theory that we put in the cue in the rack at half time and trialled our defense. I think we actually set up to put the defense under as much extended pressure as we could to give them time to work together and get used to each other. All in all, they did quite well.

I would expect they'll do the same tomorrow too.


But what we really, really need to see is a few guys show us that this year they'll become freakishly good. We need another 2-3 at Jack Steven' level if we're going to improve enough over the next couple of seasons to seriously compete.


Acres? McCartin? Billings? Gresham? Freeman? Carlisle?


This isn't a knock on our recruiters necessarily - as looking at the drafts that I've flagged above, aside from the Bont and Petracca there's nothing glaring jumping out at us that we missed badly. It's just that at this stage, I don't believe we've brought in the required talent to be a genuine top 4 team.

What a difference a week can make.

?

It makes no difference whatsoever.

[saynta]

Ok, I'll admit it - I'm cynical about our prospects this season and beyond.


We haven't drafted well.


There. I said it.



Seeing Billings let an 18yo first gamer brush him aside with a feeble tackling attempt last week highlighted the flaws in his game. Zero physical presence is Ok - if you make up for it in spades at the other end of your game. But Billings doesn't. His offensive game is Ok. Nothing more.

Now granted, he hasn't even played 50 games yet and could well be a late bloomer (compared with the development of Bontempelli and Petracca for example) but until then there's a genuine case to be very disappointed in what a Pick 3 has produced for us.

Then there's McCartin. I like him, but I don't like the way he's being played to be honest. I don't really understand why you'd spend Pick on a lead-up half forward. I understand why you'd overlook Petracca and his obvious abundance of talent for a key forward with the number 1 Pick - but not for a high half forward.


I posted about this last year with a theory on why Bruce and McCartin drop what appear to be easy-ish marks. I noticed that they go too 'flat handed' at the ball instead of spreading their fingers in the more traditional and effective way. My theory was that they were being instructed to bring the ball to the front of the contest as their first priority - actually marking the pill is an afterthought. But the absolute rule is to not let the ball through the back.

McCartin did this really blatantly last week. He actually went up in the contest and his 'flat hands' were so obvious that it looked almost like a volleyball spike!


Now that's fine. These guys are sacrificing their own stats for the team. I'm not sure I agree with it (assuming my theory is correct!) but it's a team first strategy and I have problem with that.

But it does pose thew question as to whether or not you need a number 1 Pick to do that?? If you want a workhorse that leads up and down the ground 100 times each week bringing the ball to ground - surely that's a role for the Commodore, not the Ferrari!



But I digress.....


My point is that we've been to the well, so to speak. We've handed over guys like Goddard and Dal Santo to load on draft picks. We've used the picks we received to get players from other clubs, but moreso to get young pearls from the draft. As a result we bottomed out and had 2 x top 3 picks in succession.

I just don't think it's worked, sadly.

We didn't get a Selwood. A Bont. A Judd. A Reiwoldt.

And that's we needed. It's what everyone needs.

Instead, we got a Curren, a Templeton, a Sinclair, a Newnes etc. etc.


So as we improve naturally (as guys get to that 50-100 game mark) there seems to be an expectation that the improvement trend will continue infinitely. But I have my doubts. I'd argue that outside of Gresham and last year's draftees - no one else will get much better than they will be this season.


I'm not worried about the Port game, as I have another theory that we put in the cue in the rack at half time and trialled our defense. I think we actually set up to put the defense under as much extended pressure as we could to give them time to work together and get used to each other. All in all, they did quite well.

I would expect they'll do the same tomorrow too.


But what we really, really need to see is a few guys show us that this year they'll become freakishly good. We need another 2-3 at Jack Steven' level if we're going to improve enough over the next couple of seasons to seriously compete.


Acres? McCartin? Billings? Gresham? Freeman? Carlisle?


This isn't a knock on our recruiters necessarily - as looking at the drafts that I've flagged above, aside from the Bont and Petracca there's nothing glaring jumping out at us that we missed badly. It's just that at this stage, I don't believe we've brought in the required talent to be a genuine top 4 team.

What a difference a week can make.

?

It makes no difference whatsoever.

Well it doesn't to me.

Thougjt it might to you.

[Con Gorozidis]

Not looking at today's game but looking down our whole list.
For the first time in my whole life as a Saints fan - this is the most depth we have had.

We have 25-30 blokes who are at very least competent AFL football players.
Even in our almost flag years we only probably had 15-20.

Whether we have enough high end talent to win a flag is yet to be seen - but we have genuine depth.

At worst we are headed for a top 4 finish in the next 2-3 years.

[The Fireman]

the OP is ignoring me for some reason

[SMS]

Steele no good?? He he

[saintbrat]

JM working himself the reverse Psychology- anti depression method.

if you don't think the team will do well- then anything they do well is a pleasing event.

setting himself up for a happy year...

[Johnny Member]

I'll ask again, will the OP reconsider if we make the 8

??

Not at all.

Making the 8 isn't good enough.


It's a good effort this season, but beyond that? That's not enough.



My point isn't that we don't have the talent to make the 8 - it's that we aren't good enough to win a flag.


Making the 8 this year won't change that. Unless of course, I'm proving wrong (hopefully) and two or three dudes step and become stars by year's end.

[Johnny Member]

Not looking at today's game but looking down our whole list.
For the first time in my whole life as a Saints fan - this is the most depth we have had.
We have 25-30 blokes who are at very least competent AFL football players.
Even in our almost flag years we only probably had 15-20.
Whether we have enough high end talent to win a flag is yet to be seen - but we have genuine depth.
At worst we are headed for a top 4 finish in the next 2-3 years.

Agree.


But as depth without top end talent, doesn't matter.


That's my worry.

[dragit]

We didn't get a Selwood. A Bont. A Judd. A Reiwoldt.

And that's we needed. It's what everyone needs.

Instead, we got a Curren, a Templeton, a Sinclair, a Newnes etc. etc.

How on earth did we not turn 3 rookies and a pick #37 into four of the best top 10 picks of all time?

Has to be trolling…

[Wayne42]

JM working himself the reverse Psychology- anti depression method.

if you don't think the team will do well- then anything they do well is a pleasing event.

setting himself up for a happy year...

A Happy Ending..

[Johnny Member]

We didn't get a Selwood. A Bont. A Judd. A Reiwoldt.

And that's we needed. It's what everyone needs.

Instead, we got a Curren, a Templeton, a Sinclair, a Newnes etc. etc.

How on earth did we not turn 3 rookies and a pick #37 into four of the best top 10 picks of all time?

Has to be trolling…

??

Have we only had 4 picks in the last 4 years have we?

[Wayne42]

The ex AFL players that have jobs in the media all think that the Saints are on the march, that they have recruited really well, that they have depth.

Maybe those idiots should read this thread.

[Johnny Member]

The ex AFL players that have jobs in the media all think that the Saints are on the march, that they have recruited really well, that they have depth.

Maybe those idiots should read this thread.

??

I think we do have depth.

I'm not commenting on our depth.

[Wayne42]

The ex AFL players that have jobs in the media all think that the Saints are on the march, that they have recruited really well, that they have depth.

Maybe those idiots should read this thread.

??

I think we do have depth.

I'm not commenting on our depth.

What are you saying, those that have played at this level think we are on the right track with our drafting, they are knocking the top off with their praise, you are not ?

[Johnny Member]

Well if they think we've drafted enough A-grade talent to build a team good enough to win a flag - then yes, I disagree with them.

If, as you stated earlier, they said we've recruited well in terms of our depth, then I'd agree with them. But depth doesn't win flags. Depth, plus A-Grade talent wins flags.

[Wayne42]

We'll need to evaluate at seasons end, right now, it's all based on opinions.

[SMS]

Johnny member youre iver thinking it
Are you kidding?!

2019 saints flag
Geary. Goddard. Roberton
Webster. Carlisle. Newnes
Freeman. Dunstan. Billings
Weller. McCartin. Wright
Gresham. Bruce. Membrey

Hickey Steven. Fyfe

Acres, Mackenzie, Ross, Long

[mightysainters]

Yes because this list will remain exactly the same and we won't recruit and the young 18-20 year olds won't improve..

Illogical thinking especially when GWS won't have enough cash to retain their guns that we can become a genuine potential suitor to these players as the next big thing.. We have quality youth with genuine upside and if you can't see this than you're a very pessimistic person

[White Winmar]

JM working himself the reverse Psychology- anti depression method.

if you don't think the team will do well- then anything they do well is a pleasing event.

setting himself up for a happy year...

I wrote a book about reverse psychology. Don't buy it!

[asiu]

I wrote a book about reverse psychology. Don't buy it!

thats my Sunday off to an appropriate start