Best 22

[Playon]

Reality check.

It's a logical fallacy (false cause) to believe that we have a great list because we can't fit everyone into the 22.

It could mean that no one stands out and that we have a few average players. Think a tall and narrow distribution curve.

I also have a problem with the same old players in out 'best team' Gilbert, Montagna and even Dempster come to mind.

We need to pump games into McKenzie, White, Goddard, Lonoie, Sinclair, Steele and Long pronto or we'll never get anywhere.

We still have a few weaknesses.

The backlines in the 'best team' lack:

Plenty of grunt but lack of 2 elite kickers out of the back half. We don't have any and have really struggled in this area since both NDS and BJ left the club.
Lack of run, carry, speed and spread in the midfield. Though this improved last year.
Not enough players who can play through the midfield. Again, this keeps improving which is good.

At this stage teams listed above won't automatically fix these problems in my opinion.

Yeah you're right to a point, some of our new guys will come straight into the side, Carlisle comes to mind for example, which improves our 22.

But we still needed to boost our depth.

And the other thing is next year I'd be thinking were going to chase some cream players (midfielder or 2) Theres a few we could target and I'd bet my bottom dollar we'll make a move on one or 2, that's if we haven't already.

Then we have the depth to support a very good side. We have 2 first rounders to trade if we want, and theres a couple of FA

Lets also not forget we may develop some of our own guys. Theres some players on our list already who have a high potential.

I guess we have to be patient and see how we go this year..

[Sanctorum]

Following is how I reckon the Saints will line up for round 1 against Melbourne:

Back: Sean Dempster, Nathan Brown, Koby Stevens
Half Back: Jack Newnes (c) Jake Carlisle, Dylan Roberton
Centre: Nick Riewoldt, Jack Steele, Shane Savage
Half Fwd: Jack Billings, Josh Bruce, Maverick Weller (vc)
Forward: Jade Gresham, Paddy McCartin, Tim Membrey

Followers: Tom Hickey, Seb Ross, Jack Stevens

Interchange: Jimmy Webster, Sam Gilbert, Blake Acres, Luke Dunstan

Regrettably I can't find space for Armitage, Montagna or Geary as I consider they have all been surpassed by younger players I have selected. Roberton is a favourite of Richo and unless he has a bad pre-season is going to get a guernsey.

At this early stage we can only go on how we rate the players based on their 2016 ratings - Jack Steele was considered to have been in the best 22 for GWS if not injured towards the end of the season. Of the other newcomers I have high hopes for Ben Long ("Bennelong") but his chances to force his way into the team will depend on how he performs in the NAB cup games.

Suggest we revisit this topic for final submissions in the fortnight before Round 1 next year.

[longtimesaint]

Following is how I reckon the Saints will line up for round 1 against Melbourne:

Back: Sean Dempster, Nathan Brown, Koby Stevens
Half Back: Jack Newnes (c) Jake Carlisle, Dylan Roberton
Centre: Nick Riewoldt, Jack Steele, Shane Savage
Half Fwd: Jack Billings, Josh Bruce, Maverick Weller (vc)
Forward: Jade Gresham, Paddy McCartin, Tim Membrey

Followers: Tom Hickey, Seb Ross, Jack Stevens

Interchange: Jimmy Webster, Sam Gilbert, Blake Acres, Luke Dunstan

Regrettably I can't find space for Armitage, Montagna or Geary as I consider they have all been surpassed by younger players I have selected. Roberton is a favourite of Richo and unless he has a bad pre-season is going to get a guernsey.

At this early stage we can only go on how we rate the players based on their 2016 ratings - Jack Steele was considered to have been in the best 22 for GWS if not injured towards the end of the season. Of the other newcomers I have high hopes for Ben Long ("Bennelong") but his chances to force his way into the team will depend on how he performs in the NAB cup games.

Suggest we revisit this topic for final submissions in the fortnight before Round 1 next year.

The chance of Geary, Montagna and Armitage all being out of the team would be a million to one.
Geary and Montagna were among our best players last year and players like Koby Stevens and Brown will not in my opinion by certain starters.

[coopergrech]

From this team out Gilbert ,Dunstan & Webster
In: JOEY , GEARY and ARMO

Following is how I reckon the Saints will line up for round 1 against Melbourne:

Back: Sean Dempster, Nathan Brown, Koby Stevens
Half Back: Jack Newnes (c) Jake Carlisle, Dylan Roberton
Centre: Nick Riewoldt, Jack Steele, Shane Savage
Half Fwd: Jack Billings, Josh Bruce, Maverick Weller (vc)
Forward: Jade Gresham, Paddy McCartin, Tim Membrey

Followers: Tom Hickey, Seb Ross, Jack Stevens

Interchange: Jimmy Webster, Sam Gilbert, Blake Acres, Luke Dunstan

Regrettably I can't find space for Armitage, Montagna or Geary as I consider they have all been surpassed by younger players I have selected. Roberton is a favourite of Richo and unless he has a bad pre-season is going to get a guernsey.

At this early stage we can only go on how we rate the players based on their 2016 ratings - Jack Steele was considered to have been in the best 22 for GWS if not injured towards the end of the season. Of the other newcomers I have high hopes for Ben Long ("Bennelong") but his chances to force his way into the team will depend on how he performs in the NAB cup games.

Suggest we revisit this topic for final submissions in the fortnight before Round 1 next year.

[Zed]

Reality check.

It's a logical fallacy (false cause) to believe that we have a great list because we can't fit everyone into the 22.

It could mean that no one stands out and that we have a few average players. Think a tall and narrow distribution curve.

I also have a problem with the same old players in out 'best team' Gilbert, Montagna and even Dempster come to mind.

We need to pump games into McKenzie, White, Goddard, Lonoie, Sinclair, Steele and Long pronto or we'll never get anywhere.

The old guys you mention were head and shoulders above others a couple of years back, and whilst I still have all 3 in my best 22, I think the gap to those players challenging for their spots has narrowed significantly. But at the end of the day every player has to earn their spot regardless if they are 18 or 34.

From a list perspective we've lost 1 AFL standard player (Sam Fisher) and picked up 3 guys (Steele, Stevens, Brown) who have shown when fit they were in their teams best 22. So on that count, the squad is stronger than it was last year.

Another indicator for me is I look at a guy like Shane Savage who couldn't hold down a regular spot at Hawthorn but was a regular for us in the past 2 seasons. He will struggle to hold down a regular spot in 2017 imho with both the influx of new talent and improvement in 2nd and 3rd year talent like McKenzie, White etc.

And finally, I like to apply the "would they get a game at Hawthorn?" test. Again if you looked at the list this year versus last year, you have guys like Acres and Membrey who 12 months ago would have failed the test but now probably would pass.

Overall we are a stronger list. Not saying we are strong enough yet, but there are some really positive signs that it's moving in the right direction.

[saynta]

Regrettably I can't find space for Armitage, Montagna or Geary as I consider they have all been surpassed by younger players I have selected.

Not a snow flake's chance in hell of that happening.

[Mr Magic]

Surely our 'best 22' depends totally on who we are playing?
Some weeks I would imagine Nathan Brown will be selected because of 'match-ups' and other weeks he wouldn't be considered because there is nobody for him to play on.

[mad saint guy]

I think our best 22 will vary a fair bit from the start of the season and the end. We've got a multitude of players competing for spots and I'm sure some players will surprise us and some will disappoint. With that said, I think this would be the best team to field in round 1

B: Geary, Brown, Dempster
HB: Savage, Carlisle, Roberton
C: Riewoldt, Armitage, Acres
HF: Billings, Bruce, Weller
F: Gresham, McCartin, Membrey

Foll: Hickey, Steven, Ross
Int: McKenzie, Montagna, Newnes, Steele

Assuming Brown gets a regular gig this year, Dempster will have to take on more of an intercept/attacking role to stay relevant and keep his spot ahead of Webster and White. The defence I listed is very experienced and dependable but lacks run and flair so Sean will need to reinvent himself.

Reserves (assuming everyone is fit)

B: White, Coughlan, Rice
HB: Long, Goddard, Gilbert
C: Freeman, Dunstan, Stevens
HF: Wright, Battle, O'Kearney
F: Pierce, Marshall, Lonie

Foll: Longer, Sinclair, Minchington
Int: Holmes, Phillips

[coopergrech]

Same team as me pretty much, except Koby Stevens for McKenzie and try and get Meatball in somehow.

I think our best 22 will vary a fair bit from the start of the season and the end. We've got a multitude of players competing for spots and I'm sure some players will surprise us and some will disappoint. With that said, I think this would be the best team to field in round 1

B: Geary, Brown, Dempster
HB: Savage, Carlisle, Roberton
C: Riewoldt, Armitage, Acres
HF: Billings, Bruce, Weller
F: Gresham, McCartin, Membrey

Foll: Hickey, Steven, Ross
Int: McKenzie, Montagna, Newnes, Steele

Assuming Brown gets a regular gig this year, Dempster will have to take on more of an intercept/attacking role to stay relevant and keep his spot ahead of Webster and White. The defence I listed is very experienced and dependable but lacks run and flair so Sean will need to reinvent himself.

Reserves (assuming everyone is fit)

B: White, Coughlan, Rice
HB: Long, Goddard, Gilbert
C: Freeman, Dunstan, Stevens
HF: Wright, Battle, O'Kearney
F: Pierce, Marshall, Lonie

Foll: Longer, Sinclair, Minchington
Int: Holmes, Phillips

[SaintPav]

I think our best 22 will vary a fair bit from the start of the season and the end. We've got a multitude of players competing for spots and I'm sure some players will surprise us and some will disappoint. With that said, I think this would be the best team to field in round 1

B: Geary, Brown, Dempster
HB: Savage, Carlisle, Roberton
C: Riewoldt, Armitage, Acres
HF: Billings, Bruce, Weller
F: Gresham, McCartin, Membrey

Foll: Hickey, Steven, Ross
Int: McKenzie, Montagna, Newnes, Steele

Assuming Brown gets a regular gig this year, Dempster will have to take on more of an intercept/attacking role to stay relevant and keep his spot ahead of Webster and White. The defence I listed is very experienced and dependable but lacks run and flair so Sean will need to reinvent himself.

Reserves (assuming everyone is fit)

B: White, Coughlan, Rice
HB: Long, Goddard, Gilbert
C: Freeman, Dunstan, Stevens
HF: Wright, Battle, O'Kearney
F: Pierce, Marshall, Lonie

Foll: Longer, Sinclair, Minchington
Int: Holmes, Phillips

No Jimmy Webster who missed every game after Geelong win in round 14 so not sure he is in our best 22 but this is realistic and very sensible. Hopefully coach sees it this way.

[To the top]

I'll go to the next step!

Allowing fitness and form, from the players on our 2017 List:-

Gilbert Brown White
Roberton Carlisle Montagna
Riewoldt Armitage Acres
Billings Bruce Weller
Freeman McCartin Membrey
Hickey Dunstan Steven
Steele Ross Newnes Gresham

that leaves:-

Wright Goddard Dempster
Webster Coghlan McKenzie
Phillips Geary Rice
Long Battle Sinclair
Lonie Pierce Minchington
Longer Savage Stevens
Holmes Marshall O'Keraney Baker-Thomas

So, given the proviso included, who from the Second side replaces who from the First side, and on what criteria (both for and against)?

[stkfc1]

Whats with Geary being left out after his best season. Bar a reversal of form or injury he'll play 22 regular games nex year. Would be one of first picked.

[To the top]

Small 182cm 82kg experienced defensive player replaced by a 188cm 77kg defensive player with pace and kicking skills therefore rebounding capabilities absent from Geary's commendable performances and CV, a CV earned significantly during years St Kilda under performed the competition and by a fair margin to boot.

We HAVE to go to the next level in regards transition from defence and to maximise the abilities of our forwards to compete one out with delivery to their advantage - the very reason Montagna finds himself in a defence position but with very significant offensive capacities with, run, carry and disposal.

And not lose in the defensive actions.

Acknowledged that the assessment of White's future is based on one AFL game, but he played close as required, body on body he did not go to ground (which is significant to me and where Webster needs improvement - a defender particularly can not be on the ground from a contest with his opponent running free), he showed he has pace and ball handling skills plus that he can dob a goal from 50.

To me he showed the potential to perform at a level required to improve the St Kilda side in 2017.

And that is the measure - to improve on 2016 and significantly.

Understand the love for Geary - but the measure is significant improvement to competition elite.

[longtimesaint]

I have watched all our 2016 games on DVD and the winning games more than once.
Geary was never really beaten and is a very important player in our defence.
A good chance to be captain and one of the first picked.

[To the top]

"was never really beaten"

AND

Because, as the premiership side emphasised, you have to have the AND to take out the big dance.

Perhaps, instead of watching the 2016 St Kilda games on DVD, you could watch the Premier's games and particularly during the Finals series starting from beating West Coast in Perth to beating Sydney in the big dance.

Because that is the benchmark we need to attain and surpass.

NOT our 2016 performances.

[Vazelos]

I'm getting the same feeling on White as a few others, I think he may be better than Webster as a defender and could be one out of the box. Early days but Webster I rated really high a year ago but now has some competition. He may be better served on a wing. White just really showed a lot in that game.

[maverick]

Very hard now, good sign

Geary (c) Brown Dempster
Roberton Carlisle Montagna
Newnes (vc) Armitage Billings
Gresham Bruce Steele
Weller Mccartin Membrey
Hickey Ross Steven
Stevens Gilbert Dunstan Acres

Next in line (in order)
Wright
Savage
Webster
Minchington
Mckenzie
Sinclair
Lonie
Long
White
Longer
Pierce
Holmes
Rice
Goddard
O Kearney
Couglan
Battle
Phillips
Freeman
Marshall

[Bluthy]

I'm getting the same feeling on White as a few others, I think he may be better than Webster as a defender and could be one out of the box. Early days but Webster I rated really high a year ago but now has some competition. He may be better served on a wing. White just really showed a lot in that game.

Websters kicking can be amazing - he can really drill it sometimes. But by god its erratic. He needs to be setting up play more consistently from the back. I'm not sure about his decision making. Same as Savage. We are developing some good options for rebounding halfbacks and being able to hit targets to keep the footy will be an important skill to get your place in the team.

[longtimesaint]

"was never really beaten"

AND

Because, as the premiership side emphasised, you have to have the AND to take out the big dance.

Perhaps, instead of watching the 2016 St Kilda games on DVD, you could watch the Premier's games and particularly during the Finals series starting from beating West Coast in Perth to beating Sydney in the big dance.

Because that is the benchmark we need to attain and surpass.

NOT our 2016 performances.

The Bulldogs got on a roll which became an unstoppable momentum and the timing was perfect.
They were not that good for all the season -they finished seventh!
You should watch the round 18 match where we beat the bulldogs -There was not much between us then 4 weeks from finals.
My point is we do not change for the sake of it -Geary is our best small defender and until someone is knocking down the door in that position he will still be in the side.

[mad saint guy]

No Jimmy Webster who missed every game after Geelong win in round 14 so not sure he is in our best 22 but this is realistic and very sensible. Hopefully coach sees it this way.

Whoops, knew I forgot someone. As I mentioned in that post, I think Jimmy starts the year out of the best 22 but could easily push out Dempster, Savage, Roberton or Geary if any of them lose form. If we wanted to go more mobile then Brown could make way as well.

[To the top]

Compare who they had available (also courtesy of the bye) during the finals v Round 18.

Then look at the earlier game in 2016 against them when we continued to give their defenders opportunities to do damage to us with their run and disposal.

That earlier game saw the demise of small forwards running from mark to mark - and the introduction of the more physical Membrey and Waller.

Don't get me wrong.

I reckon we have them covered BECAUSE of our marking forward options.

Which brings us back to getting the ball in there to give those forwards every opportunity in one on one contests.

[one point]

Very hard now, good sign

Geary (c) Brown Dempster
Roberton Carlisle Montagna
Newnes (vc) Armitage Billings
Gresham Bruce Steele
Weller Mccartin Membrey
Hickey Ross Steven
Stevens Gilbert Dunstan Acres

Next in line (in order)
Wright
Savage
Webster
Minchington
Mckenzie
Sinclair
Lonie
Long
White
Longer
Pierce
Holmes
Rice
Goddard
O Kearney
Couglan
Battle
Phillips
Freeman
Marshall

Did you deliberately leave out Nick Riewoldt or was that an oversight?

[George27]

Like MadSaint I have created the fiction of a fully-Saint staffed reserves team, which shows I think the increased depth of the List.

Seniors
B Geary Dempster Robertson
HB. McKenzie Carlisle Montagna
C . Riewoldt Armitage Newnes
HF Weller Membrey Acres
F Bruce McCartin Gresham
Foll Hickey Ross Steven
Inter Savage Billings Dunstan Steele

Reserves
B Rice Brown Goddard
HB Webster Gilbert White
C Freeman Minchington Phillips
HF Long Marshall Wright
F Pierce Battle Lonie
Foll Holmes Stevens Sinclair
Inter Longer Coughlan O'Kearney Connellan Joyce

I have put the 4 supp players on the bench, given that in this fictional team I think the senior list lads should start on the field !

Let us all hope for the luck of an injury-free, suspension-free season.

[desertsaint]

Very hard now, good sign

Geary (c) Brown Dempster
Roberton Carlisle Montagna
Riewoldt Armitage Billings
Gresham Bruce Steele
Weller Mccartin Membrey
Hickey Ross Steven
Stevens Newnes Dunstan Acres

like your team, with just one change.

[older saint]

Best 22 at round 1 needs to be different though to best 22 and 22.

And 1:
B: Geary, Brown, Dempster
HB: Roberton, Carlisle,Montagna
C: Roo, Armitage, Newnes
HF: Billings, Bruce, Weller
F: Gresham McCartin, Membrey
Foll: Hickey, Steven, Ross
Int: Dunstan, Gilbert, Acres, Savage

By and 22 for us to be finals bound we need :

Out: Gilbert, Brown,
In: McKenzie, Goddard

There will be a couple pop up unexpectedly and a couple drop off .