The Pelchen Legacy

[White Winmar]

Putting the boots in? Just stating the facts. He's got a pretty good fan club. Do you know him personally or had professional dealings with him? If not, have your opinion, but I suggest you don't have a clue about him. As for him being smarter than Elshaug, I think Trout's record without his input speaks for itself. Gee some people are easy to fool. And LL, as impressive as you think his record is, as I stated with the demonstrated facts, his hit rate is around 33%, which is around the industry average. But go ahead, ignore the facts. That's what he's based an entire career around. Why doesn't anyone employ him if he's such a gun? Hmmmm.............

[White Winmar]

I think enough time has passed that people should now feel free to spill the beans on the whole Watters Pelchen period. Lots of hints and winks and inferences but not much actual descriptions or facts about what was going on.
While I certainly value WW as a terrific poster I guess if one good thing came from Pelchen it was a more disciplined and rigorous approach to recruiting. We are now very well resourced in this area and we seem to have a methodology and a clinical system. This might have happened anyway as the whole industry changed but maybe we would have been a bit slower to change.
Remember the old days when recruitment was all a bit of a magical mystery tour based on gut feel and having some 'smokie' hidden away. So I think maybe Pelchen did modernise our recruiting system. He may be a pain in the ass but we are miles ahead of some of our rivals.

Admittedly recruiting has been made much easier with how well the AFL has organised the under 18 comps.

You're certainly right about one thing, Con. Recruiting and it's science has come a long way in the time I've been involved. Myself and Dr. Michelle Pain introduced the first psychological tests into the draft camp in 1997, even though there was a lot of opposition and resistance. The TAIS (test of attentional and interpersonal style) was a crude test, but relatively effective. It helped expose the level of depression in AFL players and potential recruits, which was a bonus. I then developed the ethogram, a test of integrity and character exclusively for the saints, which was designed to give us an edge.

The club used this from 2001 through to 2011, when the trout went with his own colleagues. So be it. That's the nature of the game. I can tell you our testing showed we should've recruited Jack Darling, Cyril Rioli and Jack Riewoldt, but the game of recruiting is very hit and miss. Tom Lynch was another one who tested well and came highly recommended by Stewart Loewe and endorsed by Peakey. Didn't do well initially, but look at him now. Quality young man.

I don't know Chris Pelchen well and I'm not trying to pot him. It's just he seems to have a lot of fans on here when he doesn't deserve them. If he was really good, he'd still be there. That's my point and the thrust of this thread. The administration, Ameet and the recruiting team felt they were better off without him. They would know better than anyone. In the end he 'left' but he could see the very clear writing on the wall. His greatest legacy is that he walked and left it to the better practitioners. I think the track record of our recruiters since, shows that. As for the notorious spread sheet, let me state for the record that was not entirely his idea. It was a collaborative effort, to put it most kindly for the pelican. The spreadsheet had its genesis before he even came on board, although he has his fingerprints on it. I hope that straightens a few things out.

[saintsRrising]

I don't know Chris Pelchen well and I'm not trying to pot him. It's just he seems to have a lot of fans on here when he doesn't deserve them. If he was really good, he'd still be there. That's my point and the thrust of this thread.

This is where I think your logic is flawed. Someone can be good for a while but not long-term.

I personally think that Pelchen was good for being the change agent in reforming our recruiting process, but was not the right man to then be part of the team actually picking the players in the long-term and also in being part of a cohesive team unit.

As an example I also think that GT was very good for the Saints when he first arrived. He and Butterss were both what we needed to reform the the Saints. But GT was not the right man to for the longterm.

[citywest]

I don't know Chris Pelchen well and I'm not trying to pot him. It's just he seems to have a lot of fans on here when he doesn't deserve them. If he was really good, he'd still be there. That's my point and the thrust of this thread.

This is where I think your logic is flawed. Someone can be good for a while but not long-term.

I personally think that Pelchen was good for being the change agent in reforming our recruiting process, but was not the right man to then be part of the team actually picking the players in the long-term and also in being part of a cohesive team unit.

As an example I also think that GT was very good for the Saints when he first arrived. He and Butterss were both what we needed to reform the the Saints. But GT was not the right man to for the longterm.

bulls***......If Butthead had not have sacked him we would've won at least 1 premiership. Of this I have no doubt.

[HarryM]

Putting the boots in? Just stating the facts. He's got a pretty good fan club. Do you know him personally or had professional dealings with him? If not, have your opinion, but I suggest you don't have a clue about him. As for him being smarter than Elshaug, I think Trout's record without his input speaks for itself. ..........

His hit rate is around 33%?

He's never been a Recruiting Manager in his life.

None of those picks were directly his, he oversaw the Football Department as he did at Hawthorn and at Port Adelaide.

If you think Elshaugh's so good why don't you ask Libba and Mark Smart how good he is picking Billings over Bont is working out great so far.

Get back to me when you have any details.

[White Winmar]

Putting the boots in? Just stating the facts. He's got a pretty good fan club. Do you know him personally or had professional dealings with him? If not, have your opinion, but I suggest you don't have a clue about him. As for him being smarter than Elshaug, I think Trout's record without his input speaks for itself. ..........

His hit rate is around 33%?

He's never been a Recruiting Manager in his life.

None of those picks were directly his, he oversaw the Football Department as he did at Hawthorn and at Port Adelaide.

If you think Elshaugh's so good why don't you ask Libba and Mark Smart how good he is picking Billings over Bont is working out great so far.

Get back to me when you have any details.

For someone who cherry picks one example, you picked a poor one to make an argument. Why don't you wait and see where JB's career ends up before you pass judgement? Written him off already? News flash for you, champ. Your hero, the pelican was involved in the selection of JB over The Bont, so feel free to try again. You failed to mention Saad, Milera, Tom Lee, the trading of Tom Lynch, Dal Santo, Goddard etc. I could go on but I don't want to embarrass anyone.

[HarryM]

Its a group decision - and unless you're in those 4 walls you wouldn't know who had the final say.

[saintsRrising]

Out of interest if Pelchen was so completely clueless how did he spend a total of 14 years at the Hawks (the took him back after his first stint), and nine years at Port Adelaide?

I mean even ignoring the Saints that is 23 years at AFL clubs. 26 including it.

A lot of people at AFL Clubs are lucky to last more than several years. But Pelchen managed to 26 years and was hired 4 times by AFL Clubs, but is supposedly completely clueless dud with no value? Australian Survivor are seeking contestants for the next series. Pelchen should go for it then as he must be Australia's best Survivor.

[White Winmar]

Where did I ever say he was a clueless dud? Show me where I ever stated that. Who said he was terrible at any club? I didn't. My beef is he has taken a lot of credit for things he shouldn't have. That's all. There seems to be a lot of people in his fan club who would have no idea as to what he's like. I refer to a post by Loris, in which she recalls seeing a video of the recruiting team, including him, discussing that year's draft. She comments on how he dominates the group and how everyone in the room seems to be deferring to him. You are right about one thing SRS. He is a great self promoter and survivor, who like all great self promoters and survivors, eventually got found out. Now stop misquoting me and refer to my original post. The facts defy the myth. As does his record of leaving clubs in acrimonious circumstances. That is all.

[loris]

I then developed the ethogram, a test of integrity and character exclusively for the saints, which was designed to give us an edge.

WW, I know at the Saints we were famed for our "Animal Enclosure" for our not so Saintly supporters.

But an ethogram for our players I thought an ethogram was for hypothesis testing in relation to animals

WW, were you trying to recruit some mongrel into the team then ?

[satchmo]

My beef is he has taken a lot of credit for things he shouldn't have. That's all. There seems to be a lot of people in his fan club who would have no idea as to what he's like.

Howdy WW, I respect your opinion, but...

I have seen it posted here on SS a number of times...that he takes credit for things that he shouldn't have...Can I ask, what exactly does this refer to? Has he done some media where he has made claims? Outside of the normal CV type 'I'm pretty good at what I do' type s***, has Pelchen himself made any outrageous claim?
I find it curious, but I am extremely wary of condemning someone based on other peoples second hand opinions.

I do know that the mention of his name seems to upset a few people, and in my memory they would seem to out-number the "people in his fan club". But I have only ever heard this stuff coming from either people that don't know him, or people he has 'displaced' (I discount dermot's opinion of course).

It does seem that quite a few people know someone who worked with him that clearly doesn't like him, but it's not even clear if that amounts to more than one person.

There is little doubt that he's not a popular character, yet his detractors seem to be worried that too many people give him credit(?).

So, what's the deal with Chris Pelchen. Does any one actually know him? Is he Satan?

[WellardSaint]

I then developed the ethogram, a test of integrity and character exclusively for the saints, which was designed to give us an edge.

WW, I know at the Saints we were famed for our "Animal Enclosure" for our not so Saintly supporters.

But an ethogram for our players I thought an ethogram was for hypothesis testing in relation to animals

WW, were you trying to recruit some mongrel into the team then ?

Loris...this has to be the best post of 2016

[Teflon]

I don't know Chris Pelchen well and I'm not trying to pot him. It's just he seems to have a lot of fans on here when he doesn't deserve them. If he was really good, he'd still be there. That's my point and the thrust of this thread.

This is where I think your logic is flawed. Someone can be good for a while but not long-term.

I personally think that Pelchen was good for being the change agent in reforming our recruiting process, but was not the right man to then be part of the team actually picking the players in the long-term and also in being part of a cohesive team unit.

As an example I also think that GT was very good for the Saints when he first arrived. He and Butterss were both what we needed to reform the the Saints. But GT was not the right man to for the longterm.

Bang on
Narcissistic flog who once he got in...was never relinquishing the role and he knew he could ride roughshod over weak old Rod
Both were good for short time but egos over stayed in the end
Training services .....FFS who misses that corporate babble??? Belief cloud??? Russian weight loss gurus..... Laughable

[Teflon]

Its a group decision - and unless you're in those 4 walls you wouldn't know who had the final say.

Hang on.....
It's a group decision when finger pointed at Pelican
But missing out on Bont is ALL Trouts fault alone??
Odd logic...

[White Winmar]

I then developed the ethogram, a test of integrity and character exclusively for the saints, which was designed to give us an edge.

WW, I know at the Saints we were famed for our "Animal Enclosure" for our not so Saintly supporters.

But an ethogram for our players I thought an ethogram was for hypothesis testing in relation to animals

WW, were you trying to recruit some mongrel into the team then ?

Loris...this has to be the best post of 2016

Gold, Loris. When my business partner and I named it, a colleague pointed out to us this fact. We had a chuckle, because we wanted a reference to ethics in there. We settled on the ethogram because it is a test of animals, which as humans we are. Trust you to point it out! Only a couple of people have ever mentioned that to me.

[White Winmar]

Its a group decision - and unless you're in those 4 walls you wouldn't know who had the final say.

Hang on.....
It's a group decision when finger pointed at Pelican
But missing out on Bont is ALL Trouts fault alone??
Odd logic...

An inconvenient truth.

[saintsRrising]

. My beef is he has taken a lot of credit for things he shouldn't have. That's all. .

Ok. My mistake as I thought that the OP was meant to be about Pelchen and his legacy at St Kilda. Whereas what it really seems to be about is your personal dislike of the man and a supposed "Credit Grab" by him.

Has Pelchen overstated things? I have no idea. But if he has, then over-inflated egos is hardly a rare thing in the AFL is it?


Bottom line for mine is that the recruiting and List Management prior to Pelchen arriving for many years and under three coaches was absolutely dismal
- GT's bungling of our salary cap management (as he was responsible for players contracts in addition to coaching etc) saw the club paying too few stars too much and this meant that one we could not hire in more very good players and that we also had to make do with too many GOPs as a result
- That our ability to draft kids became absolutely dismal from mid-GT's reign until only recently.

Now from what I can see our List Management, Drafting and all Trading all turned around at the time of the arrival of Pelchen. Do I only think it was Pelchen? = no. Do most Saints Fan's both on this forum and elsewhere only think it was Pelchen? = No. One only has to read on this Forum and BF to see the praise for Bains or Trout. I do however think that Pelchen played an important role in turning the fortunes of our List Management around.

You seem to be concerned that he is claiming too much credit. Personally I do not see it at least to any overwhelming undue extent, and even if he is or did, who cares?


You claim knowledge and involvement in our recruiting prior to Pelchen. As such I would ask you this, why was this so poor? Why apart from our poor salary cap management were we so often picking the wrong kids? In the early GT/RB era it was all going so well, but then we fell into the black hole of drafting.

[White Winmar]

The main problem with our recruiting going all the way back to 1997, when I first became involved was the complete lack of resources. The recruiting budget was abysmal and didn't improve much under GT. As late as 2004 the total budget was 70k per annum, which was largely JB's salary. Everything relied on amateur volunteers. There were hardly any interstate scouts and it was all a bit hit and miss. We really relied on JB's expertise and networks to get the job done. That he did as well as he did was the remarkable thing. I think our recruiting up to the end of the Thomas era was reasonable, given where we were at financially. We were aided by early picks, but the trading under GT in his management role and as coach was very good by any measure. Hamill, Gehrig, Black, Penny, Voss, Guerra, Callaghan and Lawrence amongst others. The appointment of Matt Rendell also assisted greatly in getting players to the club.

The Peake era coincided with RL 's reign. Many people have said our recruiting was terrible in this period, but there were wins on the way and the overall strategy was to build on what had gone before by filling specific deficiencies in the list that would suit the coach's overall strategy. No one was complaining when we drafted McEvoy, Steven, Stanley and Lynch. Only one has worked out for us, but the other three have found homes elsewhere and with the exception of Stanley, have been very good. Lynch's treatment is a good example of what went wrong in that era. Lack of opportunity and faith by the coach saw him wallow in the VFL. Look at him now. One of the best forwards in the comp. Imagine him in our forward line. Then there was the Lovett fiasco. Even Roo warned them not to do it, but the gamble was taken.

Our recruiting was so poor in that era we made two GFs and a replay, played finals seven out of eight years. I think our problem was as much about poor development as ineffective recruiting. Our strategy at the time brought us within a couple of kicks of back to back premierships. The price we paid was an inevitable bottoming out. Types like McQualter, Eddy, Jones et al almost served their purposes, but alas fell just short.

Trout now has a full time crew of six including Wayne Hughes as the pro scout. We also have pro recruiters and scouts in each state. That makes a huge difference and ensures we don't get another Sweeney or Howard, sight unseen. The new setup was in part due to Pelchen, but the changes were coming before he got there. The board under Summers has created structures and positions, in recruitment, coaching and development that have caught up with and, in some cases, gone past the competition. The mistakes of the past have been well heeded, it would seem.

Lastly, SRS, the credit grab I refer to centres around the way he now markets himself for his new business. The architect of PA's and Hawthorn's premierships as well as the rebuilding of St.Kilda. While he made a solid contribution to all three, his end times at the saints were spent in a battle over roles and long periods absent from the club, where he was accused of setting up his next venture rather than doing his highly paid and highly responsible job. That tarnished his legacy within the club. You're right about the egos in footy clubs. No shortage of narcissists and we have many examples of that. He and Watters were a good case study in that.

In the end, I don't really know him, but I do know quite a few people that do and there seems to be a fair bit of resentment towards him, not over his expertise and skills, but his behaviour. As we say in the trade, hire on skill, fire on fit. That just about sums it up. As you probably know, a lot of people pad their CV's by overstating their achievements. I think, on the available evidence, he might be a tad like that.

[saintsRrising]

Thank you for your response.

[skeptic]

Fascinating insight WW

[Stephen Theodore]

Yes, it is an interesting inside view thanks WW

[saynta]

His legend lives, driven mainly by himself. Our current list management is due to the work of Tony Elshaug and Ameet Bains and the fact we now have four other professional, full time recruiters. It never ceases to amaze me how easily some people convince others of their brilliance, even when the emperor has no clothes on. Look at our recruiting and list management since he left. It has been amongst the best in the league, with this year being another outstanding effort. Nothing to do with Pelchen or his "legacy". Even the famous spreadsheet wasn't his doing, although he took the credit. Look again at what I posted. His successes and failures(the majority btw) are plainly there to see. An arch self promoter. Our current sound list management is in place in spite of him, not because of him. Talk to the power and Hawks. The prosecution rests.

Sounds about right. Good final summing up to the jury Your Honour.

And he did want the final say on team selection, despite what others say.

Good riddance.

He probably would have traded out Joey, Chips and Roo if he had stayed any longer.

[Long Term Injury]

Fantastic post WW something to fill the huge void that is post season and post trade period. Many thanks!

[Animal Enclosure]

I personally don't see any acrimony between Pelchen & the club following his departure. During his trade week media work he even stated that "I'm obviously bias but St.Kilda is a clear winner". I might be wrong but a bloke who has left after a bitter axing doesn't reflect that he biased.

As far as I can tell Pelchen has a pretty abrasive personality and those outside of his circle aren't treated with much grace. The 'insiders' who have called him a prick or whatever are probably the victims of a Pelchen cold shoulder.

As far as rebuilding the club, well he set the plan in place. A plan that we have NEVER had... up until 2011 our plans were ad hoc & had no one individual driving them or a mix of individuals changing plans mid way through. Pelchen & Bains had (have) a shared vision of how the rebuild and then on going list management should be run.

From what I have heard inside the club, Pelchen was let go due to an AFL directive. If we were to receive AFL funding, we couldn't have multiple people doing similar jobs & Pelchen/Bains were running our list management strategy as a team. The club saw Bainsy as an up & coming superstar of club admin & chose to keep the younger (& probably cheaper) option.

Pelchen's lack of bitterness following his departure is a pretty good indication that while the decision may not have been mutual, it was respected.

[White Winmar]

I respect your opinion, AE, but the pelican's apparent grace, post departure, has more to do with future opportunities, than the true nature of the relationship. How many times do we see niceties exchanged between parties who have split in less than ideal circumstances? Unfortunately, Chris' childhood report card would've read something like, "Chris is a good student, but he does have difficulty in getting on with others and is disruptive in class."

His lack of public bitterness is a smart strategy when you are trying to set up a business consulting in the industry. As it is, he's been trying to set that business up for the past two years and to date, there have been no takers. Interesting. His reputation precedes him. It's not that his expertise is doubted, it's just that his past behaviour at three different clubs, continues to haunt him. There are plenty in the industry who are as good and better than him, and who are far easier to manage in terms of a professional relationship. In racing parlance, "useful, but prefer others".

Your theory on it coming down to a choice between two helps make my point. If it was an AFL directive and I'm told the club received advice, which was hardly a directive, then the club's choice was a no brainer. Bains is the true genius behind our list revival, although the pelican must take significant credit. Do you think the club would've got rid of him, or let him go, if he was so invaluable? In the end, he resigned, don't forget, mainly for all parties to save face, and part of it was due to his behaviour around setting up his new venture, rather than doing his job. Not Matt Finnis, nor anyone else, tried to convince him to stay. There was great relief when he went.

I think you've confused grace with social and professional etiquette and straight out expedience. Unfortunately for Chris, he has burned too many bridges, which faux grace simply won't repair. It would seem you can fool some of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.