Have we ever had better depth to our list?

[saintsRrising]

While I think most would agree that we have had better Top 6's ( I am ignoring potential and ranking players purely on what they have delivered to date, and could deliver NOW rather than what they may potentially be. ie Acres may yet be a gun, but currently is not) at the Saints have we ever had better depth to our list?

With Steele, Stevens and Brown now added If one goes through the process now of coming up with your best 22 it is an extremely difficult task. Young'uns like Dmak, White only make it all the more harder.

The Doggies in winning the GF this year had a list with superb depth with many players not picked or injured who could comfortably have played in a "best 22". So I see this is a great sign for the Saints.

I am still somewhat concerned about how many genuine elite players we have on our list, but the depth we now have is wonderful.

While we lack elites (and hopefully some of Acres, Paddy, Billings, Gresham and Membrey can transition to that level) having two first rounders in 2017 sets us up well to finally recruit a gun FA or two, or failing that grab two very good kids.

[dragit]

Agree there is plenty of decent depth but as you say we are pretty light on for established stars…

Most premiership sides have a pretty solid base of bona fide stars… but some will hopefully develop from our current group and we add a few with FA and early pics in the next year.

[samoht]

I think we will be playing both Steele and Stevens with our established midfielders - With the aim being to deliver a sustained 4 quarter midfield intensity level through weight of numbers and rotations - plus they could be resting
on a half forward flank, etc..

Some more outside run would be nice - we should be winning a lot of the contested/inside ball.

I think we just need the right balance. - we do not necessarily need it to be elite.

[Vazelos]

I have been following the Saints since 1978 and you are right this is the best depth I have seen.
There are no super stars as such outside of Roo ( Jack Stevens close) and it would be nice to have some more elite talent but the depth is impressive.
Mc Cartin, Gresham, Acres and hopefully Billings can become A Graders I hope soon.

[St Chris]

Gee there are gonna be some good footballers running around at Sandy next year. Of our list of 40-odd, there's not many who don't look like they belong at the top level.

The problem will come in 12 months, I think after going 2 seasons without a single player wanting out, it's inevitable we will have a couple who want to move on for "more opportunities", an excuse we've been a beneficiary of in recent times.

[SaintAndrew]

The problem will come in 12 months, I think after going 2 seasons without a single player wanting out, it's inevitable we will have a couple who want to move on for "more opportunities", an excuse we've been a beneficiary of in recent times.

Agree.

I hope we can trade those players (with some currency) to improve picks in the draft rather than delist or let them walk to another club.

[stkfc1]

The problem will come in 12 months, I think after going 2 seasons without a single player wanting out, it's inevitable we will have a couple who want to move on for "more opportunities", an excuse we've been a beneficiary of in recent times.

Agree.

I hope we can trade those players (with some currency) to improve picks in the draft rather than delist or let them walk to another club.

Which is why the Hawks trade is a stroke of genius. We'll either be able to wrap a first round pick and player in a nice little bow and basically get whoever we want or trade up for decent picks if players want to walk. We could well end up with 3 first round picks next year if we play our cards right. Hopefully we have plenty of players pushing for senior selection that make us attractive to other clubs to throw picks our way for players. We are in such a good position.

[fugazi]

Daniel Wulf

[Bluthy]

Eh I'll be the boring voice of caution again. After our list fell off a cliff and we traded out some good players for picks, we've been coming up from a very low base with our list (hence why we won a wooden spoon). So really its all been up year after year and every player coming in impresses us.

I'll give Richo big props for developing our bottom end players who had been neglected by Lyon/Watters - Minch, Wright, Lee, even Shents found his mojo at the end of last season (don't think it will save him though). So that created much more of a sense of evenness of our list and competition for spots.

But is it genuinely deep? ARe there players with good pedigree being kept out of the 22? Sinclair, Eli, NOK, Coughlan were rookie picks, Lonie pick 40, White and Rice and first yearers, Longer is kept out by Hickey who is older, Lee is a failed forward trying to convert to a defender, Murdoch struggles to get the footy, Goddard a huge unit needing multiple years to build an AFL level tank. Let be honest - its been pretty easy for guys coming into the squad to get into the 22. Stevens, Steele and Brown will probably go straight into the 22.

Having a guy with poor decision making like Wright in our best 22 is a worry for me. Richo's pressure system means guys who don't necessarily have great skills can play a role and play in a way that is maybe covering up their deficiencies. But as we rise up the ladder and enter finals where there is less time to do things, and other clubs put a lot more work into us, maybe some of our players flaws (particularly average disposal) begins to become more obvious and a real worry.

On grand final day you need to have the best bottom six on the comp as well as genuine superstars who are the backbone of the team. It's a really difficult balancing act to get together. We need to see how our list holds up now that we look like being a serious player and be taken very seriously by the comp. Last year we had a pretty easy draw and flew under the radar. Next year they will be picking our team apart looking for the weak links. We might know a lot more about its depth by next year.

[barwon saint]

You want to follow the crap Hawks trading ?
They traded picks 10,23,36,,48,66,70 from this year and 1st.and 2nd rounders next year for O,Meara dont get in the draft till 3rd. round next year.
So now they have to trade more players out to get back in to the 2017 draft,they are going down the Freo path. Good bye destination club.

[Rosco]

You want to follow the crap Hawks trading ?
They traded picks 10,23,36,,48,66,70 from this year and 1st.and 2nd rounders next year for O,Meara dont get in the draft till 3rd. round next year.
So now they have to trade more players out to get back in to the 2017 draft,they are going down the Freo path. Good bye destination club.

they did sell the farm, but they do have a 2nd round pick next year. you can't give up a future 1st & 2nd.

[asiu]

Richo's pressure system means guys who don't necessarily have great skills can play a role and play in a way that is maybe covering up their deficiencies

.

... is it a 'cover up deficiencies' or actually a 'play to your strengths' ?

[Rosco]

is depth more harshly judged when you have more top end talent?

[Zed]

Bluthy, great post mate, I have some of the same questions. I'm not a doubter as such, I'm just not convinced yet the list has the quality to go deep into September.

There is no doubt the list quality depth is very even - just try and put your best 22 together and you will find probably 4 - 6 players at least that you think could sit in our best 22 but you just can't find a spot for. But the question for me is always how many of our best 22 could hold down a spot in a genuine top 4 contender like Sydney, GWS or West Coast?

The game is going to get quicker next year with more teams preparing a run and gun game plan combined with a hard press up and down the field. The teams that can use the ball well by foot under pressure (particularly in the back half) are going to excel ... and I just don't see our back half having the ability to consistently execute cleanly of 1 and 2 steps (think Burgoyne). Yes we have more depth and in theory the gap between our best performances and our worst should close , hopefully reducing or eliminating those drubbings

As far as developing players though, Richo is the best coach we have had that I can remember. Kudos to him.

We aren't far off , perhaps 2017 2x first rounders are the cream on the cake we need for 2020.

[WellardSaint]

Richo's pressure system means guys who don't necessarily have great skills can play a role and play in a way that is maybe covering up their deficiencies

.

... is it a 'cover up deficiencies' or actually a 'play to your strengths' ?

Don't scare me like that !
I keep getting flashbacks to Ro$$ Lyin, and his "less-than-perfect" role players who had a specific job and seemed to be one-dimensional.
At the expense of talented players who only got in after he'd gone chasing the dollar.

[saintsRrising]

I'm just not convinced yet the list has the quality to go deep into September.

.

It's not meant to yet.

The club has been following a rebuilding plan of which the last phase was to gain some elite FAs (or uncontracted players). The Saints are now entering that phase. Proof will be in the 2017 Trade Pudding of whether or not we land at least one elite gun or not in that period.

Unusually too the Saints have decided to add the midfield elite talent last, whereas most clubs have chased that first.

However my OP was about our the quality of our depth, and not our upper end which I acknowledged as still lacking. That is a different and separate discussion.

[Zed]

I'm just not convinced yet the list has the quality to go deep into September.

.

It's not meant to yet.

The club has been following a rebuilding plan of which the last phase was to gain some elite FAs (or uncontracted players). The Saints are now entering that phase. Proof will be in the 2017 Trade Pudding of whether or not we land at least one elite gun or not in that period.

Unusually too the Saints have decided to add the midfield elite talent last, whereas most clubs have chased that first.

However my OP was about our the quality of our depth, and not our upper end which I acknowledged as still lacking. That is a different and separate discussion.

Next years draft will be interesting as it supposed to be heavy with KPP which could push some genuine quality mids down the order to our where our first couple of picks are.

By the way, Great topic.
So much better to read an intelligent conversation rather than all the crap that has been posted on here for the past 3 weeks with all the peacocks and exclamation marks.

[asiu]

Richo's pressure system means guys who don't necessarily have great skills can play a role and play in a way that is maybe covering up their deficiencies

.

... is it a 'cover up deficiencies' or actually a 'play to your strengths' ?

Don't scare me like that !
I keep getting flashbacks to Ro$$ Lyin, and his "less-than-perfect" role players who had a specific job and seemed to be one-dimensional.
At the expense of talented players who only got in after he'd gone chasing the dollar.

yea ... but .. mr lyon turned natural footballers into robots and added robots
... this is about play your strengths well and your gained confidence
(from doing so) shall improve other areas of your game by osmosis

two completely different culture dishes i woulda thought

[Jacks Back]

Richo's pressure system means guys who don't necessarily have great skills can play a role and play in a way that is maybe covering up their deficiencies

.

... is it a 'cover up deficiencies' or actually a 'play to your strengths' ?

Don't scare me like that !
I keep getting flashbacks to Ro$$ Lyin, and his "less-than-perfect" role players who had a specific job and seemed to be one-dimensional.
At the expense of talented players who only got in after he'd gone chasing the dollar.

yea ... but .. mr lyon turned natural footballers into robots and added robots
... this is about play your strengths well and your gained confidence
(from doing so) shall improve other areas of your game by osmosis

two completely different culture dishes i woulda thought

But we've got good culture now.

[Scollop]

is depth more harshly judged when you have more top end talent?

That's a really interesting question. Adding on from that it would be interesting to not only assess players worth from the outside but also ask each player how they view their worth within the team. Do they place a ceiling on what they can achieve?

The Doggies in 2016 had a mantra which was 'why not us?' To me that is a team and of course a coaching staff driving their team to understand that they shouldn't be placing any ceilings on what they can achieve. If you take that team attitude and break it down to each and every player on the senior list and each and every player that earns the right to put on the jumper each week, then you need to make sure that those players remove any doubt from their minds and remove all negativity if they truly aim to achieve the ultimate prize.

If a player believes he can be the difference between his team winning and losing and if he believes that he can impact game results, does that actually become a tangible benefit at a time in a match when it might be needed?

E.g It's an important moment at a critical time in the most important game of the year. It's one of those moments that could potentially be the difference between winning and losing and your decision making is critical. You will impact the scoreboard if you kick a goal but more importantly you could inspire the whole team and your screaming fans to get you over the line. It's the last quarter and you've marked the footy 55 metres from goal. The opposition has flooded your forward line.

Do you attempt to kick a goal when you know that most of your kicks have barely made that journey all year? Do you play the percentages and kick it 15 m out with the hope that something might happen and just hope that luck helps you or do you find something from within and take luck out of the equation?

When Lenny Hayes kicked the goal late in the game in the drawn grand final of 2010 it was one of the most ispirational goals I have ever seen. Lenny had to connect so sweetly and make sure that footy went in the right direction and he did it.

The thing about Lenny Hayes was that he lived and breathed positivity and an attitude of 'I can achieve anything'

You can't just find that sort of positivity and self belief in an instant without practising it everday and that's where I reckon you have more of a chance of instilling belief in the youngsters in your team than you do some of the older players. That's where the recruiters as well as the development coaches and the coaching staff in general have a role to play

[Con Gorozidis]

I'm just not convinced yet the list has the quality to go deep into September.

.

It's not meant to yet.

The club has been following a rebuilding plan of which the last phase was to gain some elite FAs (or uncontracted players). The Saints are now entering that phase. Proof will be in the 2017 Trade Pudding of whether or not we land at least one elite gun or not in that period.

Unusually too the Saints have decided to add the midfield elite talent last, whereas most clubs have chased that first.

However my OP was about our the quality of our depth, and not our upper end which I acknowledged as still lacking. That is a different and separate discussion.

Next years draft will be interesting as it supposed to be heavy with KPP which could push some genuine quality mids down the order to our where our first couple of picks are.

By the way, Great topic.
So much better to read an intelligent conversation rather than all the crap that has been posted on here for the past 3 weeks with all the peacocks and exclamation marks.

We might be able to get one mid and one kpp in the top 12 of the draft next year. That would set us up for five years at the top of the ladder.

[loris]

Eh I'll be the boring voice of caution again.

Agree Bluthy.............. you may be the voice of caution, always trying to 'keep a lid' on it................. however, one would never call you boring m'luv!

[To the top]

The comment re our best players v. the best players from other teams is valid - which is why, to me, Brownlow and Media voting is of interest because players polling are v. the opposition players.

To me, there was a direct connection between the wins we achieved in 2016 and our players improved polling in the Brownlow count.

The next step is for our players to poll in games against sides considered the benchmark sides in the competition - including on their home grounds.

That said, the votes accumulated by Riewoldt and Montagna need to be considered.

I agree the frantic, all press game will go to another level in 2017 and onwards putting pressure on interruption acts, reflex skills, run, spread and disposal including any need to force a stoppage.

We should be better served at forcing stoppages and at the stoppages given Hickey's presence (and Longer?) and the bigger bodies under the ruck contests courtesy of our recruiting to date - and outside run which is where Freeman comes in.

I do not subscribe to references to building for 2020 etc. etc. because, to my mind, we are now building for 2017 - and to be successful in 2017 whilst we still have a core of experienced key players.

That improvement will reflect the introductions of players recruited post the 2016 season - and augmented by Carlisle and Freeman - plus the improvement of players now pushing to and past the 50 game mark and, hopefully, in terms of our defensive set up, mid sized players such as White, McKenzie and Webster really standing up as exciting defenders.

Plus Goddard.

So we have names we suspect will be good enough to influence and contribute to the result of games - the next matter is for them to achieve pushing our Brownlow count to near and past 100 from the 80 we achieved in 2016.

Then we will be on our way.