Hawks Have a Lot To Teach In Trading

[minneapolis]

I would wait till all is complete but so far they look like they are out in front trade wise

You have to be joking.

Pick 14 for Mitchell is a seriously good get and may be one of the things that saves their year.

However:

Vickery is weak minded. He can take a mark when the ball is delivered well but after that not much.

JOM is a great risk. I think he will tease a bunch of games, but he wont play 50.

And for that they have given up 4 important possibly very important kids.

Two round 1's and Two round 2's.

And their top two performers this year gone. One physically and the other mentally at least.
I cannot understand logically how you can make that statement.

[minneapolis]

I posted this a few weeks ago in another thread, and it's clearly even more relevant now. Particular in a thread that has clearly been sucked in by the hype surrounding this mythical 'Hawthorn culture'.......



This is going to come as a rude shock to the adoring media - but Hawthorn are digging themselves a huge hole that they will wallow in for some time.

It always surprises me how seemingly intelligent people that report on football for a living, can be so short sighted and have such short memories about how the game works.

Football clubs do not have cultures.

Football clubs do not make decisions.

People within those clubs make decisions. And these people move on eventually.


Hawthorn are where they are, because they fluked getting a great coach - with some serious flaws, and got some perfect support around him. The stars aligned. It happens sometimes - but there's no science to it.

They also have one of the greatest leadership groups ever to play the game. Probably the best. Hodge, Mitchell, Roughead, Franklin, Lewis and others all came to the club at the same time and built a freak team. They've been so good at it, that they've managed to bring others in consistently and flourish.

Burgoyne, Hale, Gibson, Gunstan followed by Lake, McEvoy, Frawley etc.

This is not a Hawthorn thing. It's a people thing. The moment these leaders move on, s*** changes almost immediately. Board members move on, coaches move on, players move on. When this happens, the mythical 'club culture' goes with them.

New people in those roles, make new decisions.


If Hawthorn keep trading out draft picks for players, they're in serious strife in the medium-long term. Ditto Geelong. What Geelong did this pre-season will hurt for years in the medium-long term.

These clubs have fallen for their own publicity.



Hawthorn are not some super power. They are a club, that hit the big time with the right people in the right roles at the right time. There is no recipe for getting it right. If there was, everyone would do it every year. Hawthorn, as per above hit a freak era where people at the club worked incredibly well together.

Now that these people are no longer there, look at what has happened - almost instantaneously.

BTW I read your post previously and was very impressed.

I just had to acknowledge it this time around.

[sunsaint]

BTW I read your post previously and was very impressed.

I just had to acknowledge it this time around.

well you two can curl up and cuddle all you like
But tell me
Havent we just given up two round ones in a row????

The FACT is their method and gutsy trading HAS given them three GF's in a row
If it all falls over next year - they can still say - our method has given us three GF's in a row & you can throw in one more (the other one where they shopped Franklin afterwards)

cant believe anyone could argue otherwise

[Con Gorozidis]

Even if JOM works out that still leaves the Hawks in 2018-19 with Burton, Sicily, JOM, Mitchell, Breust, Gunston and basically nothing else.

Six good players wont be enough to play finals.

Once they drop out of the top 4 the whole 'destination club' thing will dry up pretty quick.

[Con Gorozidis]

BTW I read your post previously and was very impressed.

I just had to acknowledge it this time around.

well you two can curl up and cuddle all you like
But tell me
Havent we just given up two round ones in a row????

The FACT is their method and gutsy trading HAS given them three GF's in a row
If it all falls over next year - they can still say - our method has given us three GF's in a row & you can throw in one more (the other one where they shopped Franklin afterwards)

cant believe anyone could argue otherwise

Hawks have done brilliantly. Noone would argue that. But I would argue the bulk of the good work was done a long time ago. 2006-2013. They had the best list in the comp just as the expansion teams came in and the rest is history.

I still think the Hawks have now hit the panic button. Cant see them making the 8 from 2018 and beyond.

2017 is their final tango hence the urgency to get JOM and Mitchell in the door.

[Johnny Member]

BTW I read your post previously and was very impressed.

I just had to acknowledge it this time around.

well you two can curl up and cuddle all you like
But tell me
Havent we just given up two round ones in a row????

The FACT is their method and gutsy trading HAS given them three GF's in a row
If it all falls over next year - they can still say - our method has given us three GF's in a row & you can throw in one more (the other one where they shopped Franklin afterwards)

cant believe anyone could argue otherwise

What Hawthorn have done over the past 7 or whatever years has been incredible.

I'm not disputing nor trivialising their achievements.


What I'm saying is that those achievements were on the back of an incredible group of people in the same place, at the same time. Not Hawthorn as such - but a group of people working there at the time.

It's not a Hawthorn thing.

It's those people. It's not a club culture.


From that time, Simpson, Beveridge and Newbold have gone. Now Mitchell and Fagan are gone, with others to follow within the next 12 months.

Anyone who thinks 'it's Hawthorn, so their strong culture will get them through' is insane. Naive and a short memory at best.


Tom Mitchell will not replace Sam Mitchell. The same as Sicily didn't replace Roughead.


Hartung is no good, and guys like Smith will be no good without riding the coattails of Hodge and Mitchell like they've all done for nearly a decade.


Its not a knock on Hawthorn - just a reality check that Its got nothing to do with the 'club' and this myth about culture - it's a out the people employed by the organisation at the time. And when those people leave, s*** changes. It happens every single time.

Happened at Geelong, and it will happen at Hawthorn too.

[st.byron]

BTW I read your post previously and was very impressed.

I just had to acknowledge it this time around.

well you two can curl up and cuddle all you like
But tell me
Havent we just given up two round ones in a row????

The FACT is their method and gutsy trading HAS given them three GF's in a row
If it all falls over next year - they can still say - our method has given us three GF's in a row & you can throw in one more (the other one where they shopped Franklin afterwards)

cant believe anyone could argue otherwise

What Hawthorn have done over the past 7 or whatever years has been incredible.

I'm not disputing nor trivialising their achievements.


What I'm saying is that those achievements were on the back of an incredible group of people in the same place, at the same time. Not Hawthorn as such - but a group of people working there at the time.

It's not a Hawthorn thing.

It's those people. It's not a club culture.


From that time, Simpson, Beveridge and Newbold have gone. Now Mitchell and Fagan are gone, with others to follow within the next 12 months.

Anyone who thinks 'it's Hawthorn, so their strong culture will get them through' is insane. Naive and a short memory at best.


Tom Mitchell will not replace Sam Mitchell. The same as Sicily didn't replace Roughead.


Hartung is no good, and guys like Smith will be no good without riding the coattails of Hodge and Mitchell like they've all done for nearly a decade.


Its not a knock on Hawthorn - just a reality check that Its got nothing to do with the 'club' and this myth about culture - it's a out the people employed by the organisation at the time. And when those people leave, s*** changes. It happens every single time.

Happened at Geelong, and it will happen at Hawthorn too.

Interesting perspective Johnny and one that's probably more in line with current reality than how it used to be when clubs were much more tribal and there was a culture in many clubs driven by the geography and demographics of the area they were based.....i.e Collingwood.

[minneapolis]

BTW I read your post previously and was very impressed.

I just had to acknowledge it this time around.

well you two can curl up and cuddle all you like
But tell me
Havent we just given up two round ones in a row????

The FACT is their method and gutsy trading HAS given them three GF's in a row
If it all falls over next year - they can still say - our method has given us three GF's in a row & you can throw in one more (the other one where they shopped Franklin afterwards)

cant believe anyone could argue otherwise

Shifting the goal posts there, sunsaint, from this years trade dealing ("lets wait until we see how the rest pans out") to their trading pattern over the last successful number of years.

I was specifically quoting this year.

[and it is a bit of a nitpick and not that relevant, but they swapped two first rounders for players(one not yet complete), and we swapped two first rounders for two other first rounders.]

[loris]

I posted this a few weeks ago in another thread, and it's clearly even more relevant now. Particular in a thread that has clearly been sucked in by the hype surrounding this mythical 'Hawthorn culture'.......



This is going to come as a rude shock to the adoring media - but Hawthorn are digging themselves a huge hole that they will wallow in for some time.

It always surprises me how seemingly intelligent people that report on football for a living, can be so short sighted and have such short memories about how the game works.

Football clubs do not have cultures.

Football clubs do not make decisions.

People within those clubs make decisions. And these people move on eventually.


Hawthorn are where they are, because they fluked getting a great coach - with some serious flaws, and got some perfect support around him. The stars aligned. It happens sometimes - but there's no science to it.

They also have one of the greatest leadership groups ever to play the game. Probably the best. Hodge, Mitchell, Roughead, Franklin, Lewis and others all came to the club at the same time and built a freak team. They've been so good at it, that they've managed to bring others in consistently and flourish.

Burgoyne, Hale, Gibson, Gunstan followed by Lake, McEvoy, Frawley etc.

This is not a Hawthorn thing. It's a people thing. The moment these leaders move on, s*** changes almost immediately. Board members move on, coaches move on, players move on. When this happens, the mythical 'club culture' goes with them.

New people in those roles, make new decisions.


If Hawthorn keep trading out draft picks for players, they're in serious strife in the medium-long term. Ditto Geelong. What Geelong did this pre-season will hurt for years in the medium-long term.

These clubs have fallen for their own publicity.



Hawthorn are not some super power. They are a club, that hit the big time with the right people in the right roles at the right time. There is no recipe for getting it right. If there was, everyone would do it every year. Hawthorn, as per above hit a freak era where people at the club worked incredibly well together.

Now that these people are no longer there, look at what has happened - almost instantaneously.

BTW I read your post previously and was very impressed.

I just had to acknowledge it this time around.

Agree . Though we shouldn't be surprised by JM's perceptive posts. One only has to read his posts on the Essendope thread, IMO he always has something very meaningful to contribute to a discussion, often out of left field too. Knows how to cut through the BS.

[sunsaint]

Happened at Geelong, and it will happen at Hawthorn too.

of course it will
the trouble is if hawthorn drop away next year you will claim look your premise is correct
it is a no brainer to say that you need "luck" and all the planets align to fall into place & be successful
But all you need to do is look at their first GF win and ours in the '60s,
the people have changed many times over and they very almost went out of existence - our clubs have mirrored each other over the period
Mirrored except for one factor
How many times have their planets aligned compared to ours?
It must be all the astrologists Hawthorn are employing that gives their "people" that winning edge

[Jacks Back]

Its not a knock on Hawthorn - just a reality check that Its got nothing to do with the 'club' and this myth about culture - it's a out the people employed by the organisation at the time. And when those people leave, s*** changes. It happens every single time.

Happened at Geelong, and it will happen at Hawthorn too.

Will that also happen with us when Rooey, Joey & Chips leaves or doesn't that count because its us?

[St Ick]

I wonder if Hawks get desperate when Lewis leaves on his 3 year deal?

By desperate, I wonder if the JOM deal turns into a 3 way with Lions and they end up with Rocky and JOM, Hanley to Suns with remaining picks.

I don't need to be reminded of Rocky's floggishness, but he sure knows how to play the game and will be stupid cheap (at least from a picks pov).

His contract would mean Hawks need to sell off more of their soul though so Hartung, Whitex etc should probably start packing.

[bigcarl]

Will that also happen with us when Rooey, Joey & Chips leaves or doesn't that count because its us?

It will happen one day, but those guys are going to make sure they leave us in good hands

[Johnny Member]

Its not a knock on Hawthorn - just a reality check that Its got nothing to do with the 'club' and this myth about culture - it's a out the people employed by the organisation at the time. And when those people leave, s*** changes. It happens every single time.

Happened at Geelong, and it will happen at Hawthorn too.

Will that also happen with us when Rooey, Joey & Chips leaves or doesn't that count because its us?

?

Of course it happens to us.

I don't see your point.

[saintbrat]

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2016-10-17/a ... ckery-deal

HAWTHORN has been quizzed by the AFL for a second time about the circumstances behind free agent Ty Vickery's move to Waverley amid opposition disquiet about how the Hawks' offer was structured.

Any club that makes a free agency or trade offer is routinely questioned about the terms of the deal when it lodges it with the AFL.

The Hawks lodged a two-year deal for Vickery believed to be worth about $1 million a week ago, but were called into League headquarters again on Monday morning when AFL officials questioned them once more about the mechanics of the Vickery deal.

Despite earlier speculation Richmond might match a Hawthorn offer to the restricted free agent, the Tigers let Vickery pass to the Hawks without any fight after being advised the spearhead's lucrative new deal would earn them a second-round compensation pick (currently No.27).

Rival clubs have privately expressed concerns about whether the Vickery deal was structured to ensure the spearhead got to Waverley and Richmond was compensated with an attractive pick.

When announcing Vickery's signing, Hawthorn published a statement on social media saying the 26-year-old had accepted a three-year deal, but quickly replaced it with an updated version that referred to a two-year deal.

An AFL spokesman said Monday's meeting was "part of our routine sign-off of all free agency moves and finalising of all trades".

[MC Gusto]

Question to Damien et al
Given the lopsided nature of the trade with hawthorn (some commentators suggesting it is the worst they can remember in recent history) then do we think the deal could be the making of our club. Eg the clincher that gets us the cup

[St Ick]

Massive lols at Hawthorn imo.

They are trying to save face in the media by talking about ditching veterans to free up space for a massive offer in the coming years.

But in reality they are treating the public like fools, and winning. This talk about creating space for the future is hilarious and I bet their supporters are buying in thinking they will get Fyfe next year.

But my point is thar surely Lewis and Sitch would be on the vets list wouldn't they? If thats the case, Titch and JOM would be costing a load more than Lewis and Sitch.

[SuperDuper]

the amazing thing about heir trade with us is that it did not even seem to help with the Omeara situation.

I mean... if they did that trade and then immediately sealed the Omear deal, one could understand that that was the price they had to pay.. but it seems like they did it without having any idea how it would help, and now they have less bargaining chips than before, at least if the points system has any merit

[St Ick]

the amazing thing about heir trade with us is that it did not even seem to help with the Omeara situation.

I mean... if they did that trade and then immediately sealed the Omear deal, one could understand that that was the price they had to pay.. but it seems like they did it without having any idea how it would help, and now they have less bargaining chips than before, at least if the points system has any merit

I'm having a big guess, but I reckon it was a 24 hr only offer from Ameet, ie this deal won't be available on Monday. It will help the trade as the Suns obviously asked for a top 10 this year, but I think Hawks expected their Hartung/WhiteX package to be a no brainer.

I think its funny that Hawks 2017 first will be more valuable than 10 in this draft. 10 in this draft might as well be 20 and next years draft is stronger, how do I know that? Because drafts with high level KPPs are always stronger, there are always at least half a dozen classy mids but when key position players are around the top the top talent mids run deeper.

Pick 5 for 17 first and 36 or gtfo

[Harvey To Hayes]

BTW I read your post previously and was very impressed.

I just had to acknowledge it this time around.

well you two can curl up and cuddle all you like
But tell me
Havent we just given up two round ones in a row????

Given up two round one picks? Nothing of the sort, we deferred one by swapping wiith Hawks so that we have two first round picks in 2017 (which may prove to be very astute) effectively giving us two second rounders for nothing, and the other first rounder we swapped for Carlisle who will be an important part of our spine in the next flag tilt. Very different.

[Moods]

I posted this a few weeks ago in another thread, and it's clearly even more relevant now. Particular in a thread that has clearly been sucked in by the hype surrounding this mythical 'Hawthorn culture'.......



This is going to come as a rude shock to the adoring media - but Hawthorn are digging themselves a huge hole that they will wallow in for some time.

It always surprises me how seemingly intelligent people that report on football for a living, can be so short sighted and have such short memories about how the game works.

Football clubs do not have cultures.

Football clubs do not make decisions.

People within those clubs make decisions. And these people move on eventually.


Hawthorn are where they are, because they fluked getting a great coach - with some serious flaws, and got some perfect support around him. The stars aligned. It happens sometimes - but there's no science to it.

They also have one of the greatest leadership groups ever to play the game. Probably the best. Hodge, Mitchell, Roughead, Franklin, Lewis and others all came to the club at the same time and built a freak team. They've been so good at it, that they've managed to bring others in consistently and flourish.

Burgoyne, Hale, Gibson, Gunstan followed by Lake, McEvoy, Frawley etc.

This is not a Hawthorn thing. It's a people thing. The moment these leaders move on, s*** changes almost immediately. Board members move on, coaches move on, players move on. When this happens, the mythical 'club culture' goes with them.

New people in those roles, make new decisions.


If Hawthorn keep trading out draft picks for players, they're in serious strife in the medium-long term. Ditto Geelong. What Geelong did this pre-season will hurt for years in the medium-long term.

These clubs have fallen for their own publicity.



Hawthorn are not some super power. They are a club, that hit the big time with the right people in the right roles at the right time. There is no recipe for getting it right. If there was, everyone would do it every year. Hawthorn, as per above hit a freak era where people at the club worked incredibly well together.

Now that these people are no longer there, look at what has happened - almost instantaneously.

Haha. Righto. They 'fluked' getting a great coach. Then they fluked getting some great players who turned out to be great leaders....Lance Franklin???? No they recruited those players in and some of them were bold decisions. Buddy was overlooked by 4 clubs for a reason. Mitchell was drafted at pick 36 despite winning the Liston having played only 11 games. They weren't gifted father son or academy picks. They chose Hodge over the obviously more talented Judd and the highly rated Ball. Hodge is still going whilst the other 2 retired long ago and will quite likely go down as one of the best leaders to have ever played our game.
There is nothing wrong with acknowledging that they did very well. They also kept bringing in extremely talented OLD footballers into their club to maximise the core group they had. Not many clubs would survive losing their superstar like Buddy and then go on to win two flags. When Roo went down at the start of 2010 he returned to the team just in time. We definitely couldn't have survived without him. They were also a superpower in the 80's and the 70's. That's 3 decades out of 5 they have dominated. Even the decades they didn't dominate (the 60's, 90's and noughties) they still managed to win a flag in each of those decades.

They also managed to nearly throw it all away. Some 5yrs after their dominance of the 80's they nearly went under which is incompetence to the extreme.

The Hawks deserve all the accolades that they get. They ARE a superpower, because of the things you have listed. Does that mean that know what they are doing this trade period. Common sense says no. They look in disarray. However history says, hold your fire for now.