Jaxons come on down

[saintsRrising]

From what Bains just said:
* seems like no real interest by other clubs in Longer. So no ruck to be traded out at this stage
* Key defender still likely
* Steele deal should get done.

[dragit]

Both the Hawks and Cats won 17 games this year and could have just as easily won the grannie IMO as there wasn't really a stand out team this year… After a decade in the top 4, I think they're doing pretty well with what they have to stay thereabouts. I think they'll both play finals next year, particularly if they can add quality like Deledio, Mitchell & O'Meara.

I think free agency means that you don't have to bottom out to re-generate towards a premiership like you used to. I don't want to see us bottom out again any time soon.

[dragit]

But Cats are bringing in a lot of poor quality players as well as good ones with all the older players they are bringing in..

Exactly the same when you take players from the draft too though. Look at our 2012, we'll be lucky to have one player reach 50 games from five players in that draft, plus Dunell who was upgraded.

[saintsRrising]

But Cats are bringing in a lot of poor quality players as well as good ones with all the older players they are bringing in..

Exactly the same when you take players from the draft too though. Look at our 2012, we'll be lucky to have one player reach 50 games from five players in that draft, plus Dunell who was upgraded.

Yes but that is why we became lousey as our drafting of kids in the last half of GT's Reign until recently was crap.

If you keep making on the whole poor draft/trade decisions you go backwards. If you keep making in the main good draft/trade decisions you go forward.

IMO the Cats trading has not been good and on the surface looks ok to some merely because Dangerfield chose the Cats as he wanted to live in Moggs Creek. You take Dangerfield out of all the recycled players they have picked up in recent years and overall it is sending them backwards.

I am fully supportive of getting existing players from other clubs, but it gets back to how many of them become first 22 players and at what acquisition cost.


Recently the Saints have in the main (ie no one will ever get 100%) been nailing ALL of:
- Our draft selections of kids
- Our trades
- Our FAs

and our rookies have been ok (But not as good as say the Doggies who have absolutely killed their rookie picks).

[dragit]

Stanley, Smith, S Selwood, Clark, Caddy, Henderson, Dangerfield.

Would nearly all be best 22, maybe bar Clark… that's not a bad return from mature trade-ins.

[Playon]

Mitchell requests Hawks trade
Rocky rumour to Pies

[Playon]

Nathan Brown still a rumour to us

[The Recruit]

To get that second round pick it would be great if GWS did...

Our pick 10 and 47 for GWS Jack Steele, pick 15 and 33

then longer and pick 33 to the gold coast for their picks 25 and 29.

this would give us a first round and two second round picks.....we would get steele and lose longer.

[st.byron]

Stanley, Smith, S Selwood, Clark, Caddy, Henderson, Dangerfield.

Would nearly all be best 22, maybe bar Clark… that's not a bad return from mature trade-ins.

Not sure about that. Stanley, S.Selwood, Clark, Henderson - don't reckon they'd be in there necessarily. If they were they'd be bottom half of the team players. Stanley wouldn't get a game with is now. Hickey is better than Clark. Selwood and Henderson.......nothing stand out about those guys. Dangerfield goes alright. Reckon the Cats are close to cooked for a while. They're looking at Wells I heard.

[st.byron]

Mitchell requests Hawks trade
Rocky rumour to Pies

HTF are Hawthorn going to get O'Meara and Mitchell? I read recently that GC are intending to play hard ball with JOM. What do they have to trade with?

[Life Long Saint]

Mitchell requests Hawks trade
Rocky rumour to Pies

HTF are Hawthorn going to get O'Meara and Mitchell? I read recently that GC are intending to play hard ball with JOM. What do they have to trade with?

Word is that the Suns have given the Hawks a list of players they can part with.

[Scollop]

Yes but that is why we became lousey as our drafting of kids in the last half of GT's Reign until recently was crap.

It was gold standard under Lyon was it?

If it was ok for Lyon to be recruiting Pattison, Polo, Jesse Smith, Gamble, etc... because we were in our 'window', then you can use the same argument for GT. But...at least from GT's last few years we got Gwilt (who provided good service) and we recruited Gilbo, Geary, and Armo. GT's legacy lives on and helped lay the foundations of 09/10 and to bind the playing group under future coaches. GT's legacy also lives on with our current leaders.

If you want to see what crap drafting really looks like, have a look at the players Saints brought into the club under Lyon. Out of all the recruits and trades for end of 2010 the only bloke still in the AFL system is Jamie Cripps. And we got no value out of him because Lyon was not into playing youth. Same reason we lost Tom Lynch from the 2008 intake and got no value out of him.

At a time when we were playing off in consecutive grand finals and you'd think we'd be high on the list of destination clubs, Lyon's failure to recruit quality and retain quality saw us shoot straight to the bottom of the ladder. Great legacy.

[dragit]

Stanley, Smith, S Selwood, Clark, Caddy, Henderson, Dangerfield.

Would nearly all be best 22, maybe bar Clark… that's not a bad return from mature trade-ins.

Not sure about that. Stanley, S.Selwood, Clark, Henderson - don't reckon they'd be in there necessarily. If they were they'd be bottom half of the team players. Stanley wouldn't get a game with is now. Hickey is better than Clark. Selwood and Henderson.......nothing stand out about those guys. Dangerfield goes alright. Reckon the Cats are close to cooked for a while. They're looking at Wells I heard.

Six out of those seven played in the cats prelim a few weeks ago which suggest they are definitely best 22, surely?

[saynta]

Yes but that is why we became lousey as our drafting of kids in the last half of GT's Reign until recently was crap.

It was gold standard under Lyon was it?

If it was ok for Lyon to be recruiting Pattison, Polo, Jesse Smith, Gamble, etc... because we were in our 'window', then you can use the same argument for GT. But...at least from GT's last few years we got Gwilt (who provided good service) and we recruited Gilbo, Geary, and Armo. GT's legacy lives on and helped lay the foundations of 09/10 and to bind the playing group under future coaches. GT's legacy also lives on with our current leaders.

If you want to see what crap drafting really looks like, have a look at the players Saints brought into the club under Lyon. Out of all the recruits and trades for end of 2010 the only bloke still in the AFL system is Jamie Cripps. And we got no value out of him because Lyon was not into playing youth. Same reason we lost Tom Lynch from the 2008 intake and got no value out of him.

At a time when we were playing off in consecutive grand finals and you'd think we'd be high on the list of destination clubs, Lyon's failure to recruit quality and retain quality saw us shoot straight to the bottom of the ladder. Great legacy.

Spot on mate.

Only good thing about Toss Lyin is that he is now f****** Freemantle.

[Con Gorozidis]

Cats didn't have a single player under 23yo in their prelim final side. Think about that for a minute.
You remove Selwood and PDF from that side and they are a bottom 4 side. Both these guys played 24 games in 2016. Every single game. Enright played 23.

As much as everyone has heaped praise on the cats for never bottoming out etc etc - i think all they have done is kick the can down the road a few km. The cliff is coming.

[Con Gorozidis]

I would be staying in touch with Mitchell & O'Meara… just can't see how Hawthorn are going to get both deals done without trading out some very good players. Both of those guys are worth top 10 picks, even with the risk associated IMO.

They are going to be a scary outfit if they land both players.

Dunno about that. Have a close look at Hawthorn's list. Very threadbare under 25 talent. Apart from Ryan Burton and James Sicily they have almost nothing under 25 at all.
They know it which is why they are panicking and trying to get O'Meara and Mitchell. Not sure how they will get it done but will have to be this year and next year's first rounders plus maybe Whitecross and Hartung or similar. They also lose Brad Hill which further weakens them under 25.

I dont think the Hawks will be challenging again anytime soon. They are cooked imo.

I hope you're right but…

I reckon if you take out Schoenmakers, Whitecross, Fitzpatrick & Shiels from their last side to play:

And dropped in Roughhead, Vickery, Mitchell & O'Meara… you would have a very good side.

Do you think they'll miss the finals next year?

Roughead is an absolute gun. Probably under-rated overall. He won them a lot of close finals game almost by himself. Very good player who can play fwd and midfield and loves big games. I certainly hope he returns but if he doesnt he is irreplaceable for them.
If they get OMeara and Mitchell I think they can hang tough for another year in the top 4. If not they are stuffed.

[saintsRrising]

Yes but that is why we became lousey as our drafting of kids in the last half of GT's Reign until recently was crap.

It was gold standard under Lyon was it?

If it was ok for Lyon to be recruiting Pattison, Polo, Jesse Smith, Gamble, etc... because we were in our 'window', then you can use the same argument for GT. But...at least from GT's last few years we got Gwilt (who provided good service) and we recruited Gilbo, Geary, and Armo. GT's legacy lives on and helped lay the foundations of 09/10 and to bind the playing group under future coaches. GT's legacy also lives on with our current leaders.

If you want to see what crap drafting really looks like, have a look at the players Saints brought into the club under Lyon. Out of all the recruits and trades for end of 2010 the only bloke still in the AFL system is Jamie Cripps. And we got no value out of him because Lyon was not into playing youth. Same reason we lost Tom Lynch from the 2008 intake and got no value out of him.

At a time when we were playing off in consecutive grand finals and you'd think we'd be high on the list of destination clubs, Lyon's failure to recruit quality and retain quality saw us shoot straight to the bottom of the ladder. Great legacy.

.

What part of "last half of GT's Reign until recently was crap" do you possibly not understand?

You do understand Lyon was at the club between GT and "recently" ? Obviously clearly not!



Also clearly you have no idea what "drafting kids" mean. Pattison, Polo, Jesse Smith, Gamble, etc. were all not kids. Just as Knoble, Ackland, etc were not kids.

It was gold standard under Lyon was it? No, our reruiting of kids in that era was lousey as I stated. It was lousey before he arrived. It was lousey while he was there, It was lousey afterwards, until recently. None of the coaches made the calls on the kids and so I do not understand your rant at all.

[dragit]

Cats didn't have a single player under 23yo in their prelim final side. Think about that for a minute.
You remove Selwood and PDF from that side and they are a bottom 4 side. Both these guys played 24 games in 2016. Every single game. Enright played 23.

As much as everyone has heaped praise on the cats for never bottoming out etc etc - i think all they have done is kick the can down the road a few km. The cliff is coming.

What a bunch of fools finishing 2nd on percentage and making a prelim… lolololol

I've also thought they were approaching a big drop, but after finishing 10th last year, looking down and out - they've had a pretty impressive resurgence.

Remove our two best mids and I don't know if we'd win a game.

[jaxons]

To get that second round pick it would be great if GWS did...

Our pick 10 and 47 for GWS Jack Steele, pick 15 and 33

then longer and pick 33 to the gold coast for their picks 25 and 29.

this would give us a first round and two second round picks.....we would get steele and lose longer.

This would be great trading.
Now we just need to get the other clubs to agree to this!

[SaintWodonga]

Jaxons... Are looking to trade in players or trade for picks?

[saintsRrising]

To get that second round pick it would be great if GWS did...

Our pick 10 and 47 for GWS Jack Steele, pick 15 and 33

then longer and pick 33 to the gold coast for their picks 25 and 29.

this would give us a first round and two second round picks.....we would get steele and lose longer.

This would be great trading.
Now we just need to get the other clubs to agree to this!

Not to mention Longer as he moved from Qld to Vic and so most likely will not want to return there.

[Playon]

Mitchell requests Hawks trade
Rocky rumour to Pies

HTF are Hawthorn going to get O'Meara and Mitchell? I read recently that GC are intending to play hard ball with JOM. What do they have to trade with?

Pretty sure they'll find a way

[The OtherThommo]

Mitchell requests Hawks trade
Rocky rumour to Pies

HTF are Hawthorn going to get O'Meara and Mitchell? I read recently that GC are intending to play hard ball with JOM. What do they have to trade with?

It's a very fair point, St.B. Dorks Top 10 in their B & F reads;

1. Sam Mitchell – 170 votes
2. Jordan Lewis – 157 votes
3. Shaun Burgoyne – 156 votes
4. Grant Birchall – 152 votes
5. Cyril Rioli – 148 votes
6. Isaac Smith – 146 votes
7. Jack Gunston – 142 votes
8. Josh Gibson – 135 votes
9. James Frawley – 127 votes
10. Luke Breust – 124 votes

And, that doesn't include Hodge, who is arguably still their most important player (the leadership thing).

1, 2, 3, 4 & 8 have no value to a side like B'bane for JOM. No chance they'd move 5, given Roughie's problems you could count out 7, with 8 being at the stage he's at, I doubt they'd shift 9, and they've said 10 is staying (not that you can take that to the bank, so early).

I reckon the dilemma facing the Dorks is how they've thrived through the years of the massive draft+ concessions to the 2 newbies, given those concessions are beginning to wash out of the system. The 2 newbies diluted the overall per player talent, meaning 'destination' clubs could pick the eyes out of FA from the clubs who were going to struggle to rise while the 2 newbies used their concessions (it didn't just mean the strugglers couldn't get top end talent from the draft, it meant their trading options were also severely curtailed).

Girlong look similar. Top 10 in their B & F;

1. Patrick Dangerfield — 253
2. Joel Selwood — 238
3. Corey Enright — 234.5
4. Cameron Guthrie — 229
5. Harry Taylor — 214
6. Mark Blicavs — 201
7. Tom Hawkins — 196
8. Mitch Duncan — 190
9. Tom Lonergan — 173.5
10. Zac Smith — 172.5

Where's the currency, there or at the Dorks, given the washing out of the newbie concessions that's underway (accelerating actually, if you look at the salary cap chops brought forward at GWS)?

The club that looks like it might have collapsed first is the Duckers, probably helped along by Lyon's well documented aversion to the list "refresher".

It may take a little longer for the newbie concessions to wash out enough to send the likes of the Dorks and Girlong into a real spin. But, it seems to me they have a real job to hold up much longer.

The newbie years really have distorted things one helluva lot.

[Playon]

Our pick 47 now out to 50

Compensation for Wells, Delidio and Vickery. More to come?

Starting to doubt thats going to be enough for Steele. Bundle Eli and 50 for a higher pick?

[Con Gorozidis]

Times they are a changin.
A lot more player movement nowadays.