Uneven playing field

[Johnny Member]

The clubs agreed to this... Rather than risk losing a player

Short sighted and created a huge rod for their...

Blind freddy could forecast this monster

The club's don't care about winning.

Its a business. They need a job.

If the business of making dough, they'll have a job.


You really think Finnis gives a f*** if the Saints win a flag? Please.

I think the club's agreeing to this comment is similar to me agreeing to give the mugger with a knife my wallet

It's a fair point, but I don't agree.

I honestly don't see the 'clubs' as clubs anymore.

They're places of employment. Nothing more.


Seriously, why is Richo working at the Saints? For the love of it? For the love of the place?

No. For money.

It's hos job. He's a professional, that would do the same job at a different 'club' in a heartbeat given the right circumstances.


That's not a knock on him. It's just a reality.


Matt Finnis. What sort of f*** would he give about the Saints? Other than being a conscientious professional who wants to do his job well, of course.

None. He'd have taken any decent job in the business that paid well and gave him opportunities. And he'd walk in a heartbeat given the right circumstance. And I don't blame him.

Players do it every year. Coaches do too.


Look at Hawthorn for example. Do you think Neitz, Yze and Monkhorst gave two s***s about the 'club' before they were employed there? Clarkson??

Do you think Gibson, Burgoyne, Lake, Hale, McEvoy, Gunston and the rest felt anything for Hawthorn before they arrived from other clubs? Of course not. They're employees. In a business.

[Johnny Member]

The clubs agreed to this... Rather than risk losing a player

Short sighted and created a huge rod for their...

Blind freddy could forecast this monster

The club's don't care about winning.

Its a business. They need a job.

If the business of making dough, they'll have a job.


You really think Finnis gives a f*** if the Saints win a flag? Please.

Bulls!t.

+1 what a stupid comment from Johnny Strawman - he loves this sort of outlandish hyperbole. As if Finnis doesn't want to win a flag - pure idiocy.

I didn't say he didn't want to win a flag.

I said he wouldn't particularly care if they didn't. And he wouldn't care if the organisation he was working at that when they did win the flag was St Kilda, GWS or the Bulldogs.

He was employed to make the organisation financial. To make money for the AFL, and the people employed by the AFL business.


Seriously, the die hard fans are the only ones in the caper left that care about the 'club'. Many just haven't noticed that their 'club' is absolutely nothing like the 'club' they used to support and isn't even a club at all anymore.


That's Ok though. Nothing to get upset about. It is what it is. Reality is that most clubs would have probably folded anyway if the AFL didn't take the approach they did.

But AFL is just entertainment. You watch it because you get entertained by it.


That's why the 'threat' of GWS isn't a threat at all. It's just another team on the screen each week playing a game designed to get people to watch. And the more people that watch, the more money the AFL get and the more secure people's job are in the industry.

It's like watching a movie or TV. Same thing.


I like the footy these days. I just don't 'consume the product' the way I used to when I was a kid.

[Griggsy]

The clubs agreed to this... Rather than risk losing a player

Short sighted and created a huge rod for their...

Blind freddy could forecast this monster

The problem was gws wanted a fair value pick for player when it was never going to happen.

A contending club isn't going to trade an established A grader for a top pick because they are going for a flag.

A non-contending club isn't going to trade a young player with high potential for a pick of an unknown player.

A non-contending club isn't going to trade away the few established A graders they have and wind up pissing off the club supporters while simultaneously guaranteeing they get worse till the 18 year old draftee matures. (I mean top 5 pick worth of a quality mature player, nothing like what we did, would anyone have traded Reiwoldt even for pick 1? I wouldn't)

[Con Gorozidis]

Suns proof that concessions aren't everything.


Credit to Leon, SPA and the driven players

This is a bit of a myth imo.

I agree to some extent but GWS actually got a lot more concessions than GC.

You would have to go over the last five years and see exactly how but GWS have almost double the number of top 10 draft picks on their list than GC.

So GWS have had so many concessions - even when compared to GC - that the myth that they have been 'smart' is a bit overblown (the AFL love to perpetuate this).

Yes I do concede they have done well (and been smart) with their culture, coach and older players BUT they have had so many top 20 picks that even if they had an average or below average 'hit rate' they were still going to end up with a dozen at least young guns. They must have 30 or so top 20 picks. On weight of numbers - they almost couldnt fail.

[st.byron]

Suns proof that concessions aren't everything.


Credit to Leon, SPA and the driven players

This is a bit of a myth imo.

I agree to some extent but GWS actually got a lot more concessions than GC.

You would have to go over the last five years and see exactly how but GWS have almost double the number of top 10 draft picks on their list than GC.

So GWS have had so many concessions - even when compared to GC - that the myth that they have been 'smart' is a bit overblown (the AFL love to perpetuate this).

Yes I do concede they have done well (and been smart) with their culture, coach and older players BUT they have had so many top 20 picks that even if they had an average or below average 'hit rate' they were still going to end up with a dozen at least young guns. They must have 30 or so top 20 picks. On weight of numbers - they almost couldnt fail.

They also had knowledge and the AFL the experience of all the issues that confronted the expansion clubs before them. No doubt IMO they have been gifted massive advantages from the AFL that have unbalanced the comp.

Quick check of their draft pick history on Footywire shows they currently have on their list 20 first round draft picks, 12 of them top ten. Then there are second rounders like Steele and Lobb. Also first pick in the rookie draft in multiple years.

[Con Gorozidis]

I suggest we all start using a new term.

'Match fitzing' to describe the way Mike Fitzpatrick has fixed or 'fitzed' the comp from the top down.

Just to re-iterate the looming draft situation for 2016. GWS are a certainty to finish top 4. They may very well win the flag.

YET

They may also end up with THREE (3) draft picks before we even get our first.

Knightmare ranks Setterfield, Mutch and Perryman all in the top 12. All GWS Academy players.

Perryman and Setterfield are top 6 so they are absolutely certain to take them before we get a pick.

[BigMart]

How it should have played out

Instead of giving them 20 first round draft picks in their first three drafts, which will give them a probable 10-12 A Graders (as others will come from good selections outside of the first round) with 5-6 of them being elite. This would be 20% better than even the top contenders. And this will roll on for a decade or more as they flip and trade commodities they don't need for longer term stars.

Also, they compromised three seasons by being easy beats by fast tracking 20 kids to become stars at 21 (rather than 24) giving them longer in contention.

Top 6 give up 1 A Grade (500+) player and a fringe
Next 6 give up a B Grade (350-500) player and a fringe
Next 4 give up a C Grade (150-350) player and a fringe
One concession in each round of the draft
6 rookies

There's 38 player and 6 rookies

Immediately competitive, no 4000 at home games for 3 yeas as they are unwatchable
Drafts not too compromised and fairer on low teams trying to rebuild
Even up comp
Top team are only as disadvantaged as other contenders.

But shortsighted power teams couldn't see the forest or the trees!!!

[Con Gorozidis]

How it should have played out

Instead of giving them 20 first round draft picks in their first three drafts, which will give them a probable 10-12 A Graders (as others will come from good selections outside of the first round) with 5-6 of them being elite. This would be 20% better than even the top contenders. And this will roll on for a decade or more as they flip and trade commodities they don't need for longer term stars.

Also, they compromised three seasons by being easy beats by fast tracking 20 kids to become stars at 21 (rather than 24) giving them longer in contention.

Top 6 give up 1 A Grade (500+) player and a fringe
Next 6 give up a B Grade (350-500) player and a fringe
Next 4 give up a C Grade (150-350) player and a fringe
One concession in each round of the draft
6 rookies

There's 38 player and 6 rookies

Immediately competitive, no 4000 at home games for 3 yeas as they are unwatchable
Drafts not too compromised and fairer on low teams trying to rebuild
Even up comp
Top team are only as disadvantaged as other contenders.

But shortsighted power teams couldn't see the forest or the trees!!!

You make a good point. I remember when this was debated. The clubs all whinged about concessions and then ended up agreeing to something much much worse.
Not smart. The old 'discount' factor came in to play.

The AFL basically said ok option a) you can give us $10 now; or option b) give us $1000 in 5 years.

All the clubs said - ummmm - lets give you $1000 in 5 years then . Yeah option b.

[desertsaint]

How it should have played out

Instead of giving them 20 first round draft picks in their first three drafts, which will give them a probable 10-12 A Graders (as others will come from good selections outside of the first round) with 5-6 of them being elite. This would be 20% better than even the top contenders. And this will roll on for a decade or more as they flip and trade commodities they don't need for longer term stars.

Also, they compromised three seasons by being easy beats by fast tracking 20 kids to become stars at 21 (rather than 24) giving them longer in contention.

Top 6 give up 1 A Grade (500+) player and a fringe
Next 6 give up a B Grade (350-500) player and a fringe
Next 4 give up a C Grade (150-350) player and a fringe
One concession in each round of the draft
6 rookies

There's 38 player and 6 rookies

Immediately competitive, no 4000 at home games for 3 yeas as they are unwatchable
Drafts not too compromised and fairer on low teams trying to rebuild
Even up comp
Top team are only as disadvantaged as other contenders.

But shortsighted power teams couldn't see the forest or the trees!!!

Problem with that is that there were two clubs, not one. What top 6 club would agree to give up two A graders in two years. It would also mean both new clubs instantly had more A graders than almost every other team.
You would also have a heck of a lot of players at both new clubs that went there against their will.
The only way to play it, the AFL did - they just gave them too many concessions for too long. But it was never about making them competitive - it was about making them dominant. The only way they'll attract membership is through success, not participation.

[Enrico_Misso]

So the AFL will play the second most important game of the year at a cesspit in the middle of nowhere that only holds 20,000 when Hawthorn has over 70,000 members and a ground that holds four times as many is not that far away.
Anyone would think the AFL are desperate to get their bastard love child up by whatever it takes?

[bigred]

Every other existing club signed off on this.

Tough.

[bigcarl]

Every other existing club signed off on this.

Tough.

Yep.

Guaranteed their existences through a massive TV rights deal, which goes to Johnny Members points.

As a mere fan, though, I didn't sign off on it. It cuts to the core of the competition's integrity.

The league ultimately needs to decide whether it is an elite sporting competition or just entertainment for the masses like WWE.

[White Winmar]

So the AFL will play the second most important game of the year at a cesspit in the middle of nowhere that only holds 20,000 when Hawthorn has over 70,000 members and a ground that holds four times as many is not that far away.
Anyone would think the AFL are desperate to get their bastard love child up by whatever it takes?

Your last sentence, EM, sums up the entire issue in 18 simple words. They simply cannot fail. They won't be allowed to fail. A very good friend of mine, who had been a member and supporter of the saints for 30 years, switched allegiance to the swines in 2002. My friends and I lambasted him mercilessly, with the usual taunts of being a traitor etc. I told him that it would never be the same barracking for them and that a piece of the saints would remain in him forever.

His reply then was very prescient. He told me the "AFL would never let Sydney fail because it was so desperately needed to make a truly national competition a success". Unlike the saints he said, who were low on HQ's list of priorities. "If they disappeared", he said, " no one at the "Death Star" (Our name for AFL HQ) would care, nor would they lift a finger to save us. Fitzroy and South Melbourne, anyone? It would probably be a relief to them". This was in the days before the massive TV rights deals, of course. "At least I'd have a club, even if it wasn't my original choice", he told us.

Look what's happened since. Two premierships and almost yearly finals appearances, built on a foundation of special treatment, salary cap concessions, read rorts, Academy selections, tribunal favouritism (Barry Hall?), living allowances, and manipulation of trading to ensure a steady stream of high profile stars, like Plugger, Hall, Buddy and Tippett. I could go on, but I'm going to do a Terry Wallace and spew. When you start to look at all the assistance they've received, you soon realise that their administration enjoys a huge advantage in that it has AFL HQ to draw on as an extra resource. The only miracle is that we've been able to compete at all and nearly win two flags. If we win one from here on, it will indeed be one of the greatest achievements in the game's history.

My friend Brian was right. He's a football mercenary for sure, and I could never switch the way he has. He seems to be as committed and passionate as he was when following the saints, and has enjoyed the Swine's success. In football terms, I still have a soft spot for him. The centre square of Moorabbin in the 80's.

[ace]

Suns proof that concessions aren't everything.


Credit to Leon, SPA and the driven players

This is a bit of a myth imo.

I agree to some extent but GWS actually got a lot more concessions than GC.

You would have to go over the last five years and see exactly how but GWS have almost double the number of top 10 draft picks on their list than GC.

So GWS have had so many concessions - even when compared to GC - that the myth that they have been 'smart' is a bit overblown (the AFL love to perpetuate this).

Yes I do concede they have done well (and been smart) with their culture, coach and older players BUT they have had so many top 20 picks that even if they had an average or below average 'hit rate' they were still going to end up with a dozen at least young guns. They must have 30 or so top 20 picks. On weight of numbers - they almost couldnt fail.

They also had knowledge and the AFL the experience of all the issues that confronted the expansion clubs before them. No doubt IMO they have been gifted massive advantages from the AFL that have unbalanced the comp.

Quick check of their draft pick history on Footywire shows they currently have on their list 20 first round draft picks, 12 of them top ten. Then there are second rounders like Steele and Lobb. Also first pick in the rookie draft in multiple years.

The thing everyone forgets when discussing the concessions to Gold Coast and GWS is that while they were gathering up underage kids and state zone and first round draft picks, the other clubs were only getting the leftovers with their picks.
It is not like the other clubs were replacing their retiring players with similar quality.
While the two blessed clubs were stocking up quality teams the rest of the competition was stocking up on low quality.
They only got to fight over the fish that John West rejected.
The players that the other clubs got/get from the 2014 draft onwards are of better quality because they have not been picked over by the blessed clubs first.

What all this creates is a wave effect in the quality of other competing clubs.
Those competing clubs will be at the bottom of their wave when Gold Coast and GWS are at their crest.

However due to both the blessed clubs suffering from a poor age distribution when their wave breaks they will be in for the biggest wave dump of all time except for maybe Brisbane.
That is why I insist that is the window we must target.
Don't get impatient Saints, be patient.
Timing is going to be really important in this corrupt AFL world.
We must emerge at our peak when the blessed clubs crash and not before.
Our next premiership window is in the 20s not the teens.

[Con Gorozidis]

One of the side effects of all of this imo is it allowed Hawthorn to get a three-peat. Hawthorn were in a very good list position in 2010-2012 and because GWS and to a lesser extent GC were hoovering up all the talent it made it impossible for the Hawks rivals to bridge the gap. You have to give some credit to Adelaide and Geelong for getting up there when they basically got absolutely nothing from the draft. A fair effort.

[barneyboyz]

The clubs agreed to this... Rather than risk losing a player

Short sighted and created a huge rod for their...

Blind freddy could forecast this monster

The club's don't care about winning.

Its a business. They need a job.

If the business of making dough, they'll have a job.


You really think Finnis gives a f*** if the Saints win a flag? Please.

I think the club's agreeing to this comment is similar to me agreeing to give the mugger with a knife my wallet

It's a fair point, but I don't agree.

I honestly don't see the 'clubs' as clubs anymore.

They're places of employment. Nothing more.


Seriously, why is Richo working at the Saints? For the love of it? For the love of the place?

No. For money.

It's hos job. He's a professional, that would do the same job at a different 'club' in a heartbeat given the right circumstances.


That's not a knock on him. It's just a reality.


Matt Finnis. What sort of f*** would he give about the Saints? Other than being a conscientious professional who wants to do his job well, of course.

None. He'd have taken any decent job in the business that paid well and gave him opportunities. And he'd walk in a heartbeat given the right circumstance. And I don't blame him.

Players do it every year. Coaches do too.


Look at Hawthorn for example. Do you think Neitz, Yze and Monkhorst gave two s***s about the 'club' before they were employed there? Clarkson??

Do you think Gibson, Burgoyne, Lake, Hale, McEvoy, Gunston and the rest felt anything for Hawthorn before they arrived from other clubs? Of course not. They're employees. In a business.

It has made us become more professional in our own business. I have to agree on varying levels with most opinions here, it's a little both ways, however in the mid eighties we were heading for abomination, and anything we have right now, is stronger than most of our history showed.

Further, if not for some major 'bad' luck and planning, we'd have 2 - 3 flags since mid eighties, and be looking at this from a totally different angle.

[Saints43]

You have to give some credit to ... Geelong for getting up there when they basically got absolutely nothing from the draft. A fair effort.

Father Son draft exceptions and Dank and Robinson almost certainly cheating there.

[Sainternist]

So the AFL will play the second most important game of the year at a cesspit in the middle of nowhere that only holds 20,000 when Hawthorn has over 70,000 members and a ground that holds four times as many is not that far away.
Anyone would think the AFL are desperate to get their bastard love child up by whatever it takes?

Your last sentence, EM, sums up the entire issue in 18 simple words. They simply cannot fail. They won't be allowed to fail. A very good friend of mine, who had been a member and supporter of the saints for 30 years, switched allegiance to the swines in 2002. My friends and I lambasted him mercilessly, with the usual taunts of being a traitor etc. I told him that it would never be the same barracking for them and that a piece of the saints would remain in him forever.

His reply then was very prescient. He told me the "AFL would never let Sydney fail because it was so desperately needed to make a truly national competition a success". Unlike the saints he said, who were low on HQ's list of priorities. "If they disappeared", he said, " no one at the "Death Star" (Our name for AFL HQ) would care, nor would they lift a finger to save us. Fitzroy and South Melbourne, anyone? It would probably be a relief to them". This was in the days before the massive TV rights deals, of course. "At least I'd have a club, even if it wasn't my original choice", he told us.

Look what's happened since. Two premierships and almost yearly finals appearances, built on a foundation of special treatment, salary cap concessions, read rorts, Academy selections, tribunal favouritism (Barry Hall?), living allowances, and manipulation of trading to ensure a steady stream of high profile stars, like Plugger, Hall, Buddy and Tippett. I could go on, but I'm going to do a Terry Wallace and spew. When you start to look at all the assistance they've received, you soon realise that their administration enjoys a huge advantage in that it has AFL HQ to draw on as an extra resource. The only miracle is that we've been able to compete at all and nearly win two flags. If we win one from here on, it will indeed be one of the greatest achievements in the game's history.

My friend Brian was right. He's a football mercenary for sure, and I could never switch the way he has. He seems to be as committed and passionate as he was when following the saints, and has enjoyed the Swine's success. In football terms, I still have a soft spot for him. The centre square of Moorabbin in the 80's.

Sounds like you need to "unfriend" this friend of yours. May I ask, what his main reason was for being a turncoat?

[Con Gorozidis]

You have to give some credit to ... Geelong for getting up there when they basically got absolutely nothing from the draft. A fair effort.

Father Son draft exceptions and Dank and Robinson almost certainly cheating there.

Well yes the F/S certainly helped their 3 flag years but I am specifically referring to their ability to get back in to top 4 after being 10th in 2015. Not sure they have got many good draft picks or any F/S in the last four years while GWS have been stockpiling the lion's share of talent.

[ctqs]

I've said for years the AFL is the most blatantly corrupt organisation in Australia that I know of. If it wants a result, it gets one. Brisbane won three in a row. Sydney is always thereabouts. Now it's GWS. It tried to engineer the Essendon debacle to cover it up or at least hose it down. It fined Melbourne but denied it was for tanking. We used to pick fights with town hall and suffered as a result. It actively gets involved in trades to ensure certain players go to certain clubs and has since it engineered Lockett's move to Sydney. Even Sydney was in the bad books (a lovers' tiff) and lost its COLA payments after it got Franklin when the league wanted him to go to GWS. Don't even get me started on the MRP and how a Swan can nearly break the jaw of one of our players and we don't even get a free, yet when it's one of them it's a different story. How Barry Hall was allowed to play in that Grand Final will always stick in my craw.
The league does not give a stuff about a number of clubs - including us - and the only reason it will keep them afloat is to ensure it has nine games a round for the TV rights deal. We get screwed over right royally for paying off that stadium (along with the Bullldogs) on behalf of the rest of the comp.
I nearly walked away from the game after Essendon was initially cleared by the AFL tribunal. Had it not been for the successful appeal, I would've. As it is I really struggle nowadays because knowing the league is actively working in favour of other clubs to our detriment is really disheartening. Seriously, what chance do we stand?

[Johnny Member]

It has made us become more professional in our own business. I have to agree on varying levels with most opinions here, it's a little both ways, however in the mid eighties we were heading for abomination, and anything we have right now, is stronger than most of our history showed.

Further, if not for some major 'bad' luck and planning, we'd have 2 - 3 flags since mid eighties, and be looking at this from a totally different angle.

But my point is, it's not 'our' business anymore.

And my other point, is that whether we'd have won 2-3 flags or not is irrelevant.


St Kilda 2016 winning an AFL flag for me, is a completely different ball park to the St Kilda of 1987 winning a flag.


The St Kilda of 1987 was a club. It was a club I grew up supporting passionately and a flag back then would have meant something out of this world to me. I would have felt represented by the club, and I would have felt part of it. I also would have taken incredible pride from the club I was born into as a supporter, taking out the best sporting comp in the world.

However the St Kilda 2016 would have the same sort of appeal and value as the Storm, or West Ham or the Golden State Warriors winning one. They're all basically franchises playing in an entertainment business. I love sport, and get pleasure out of watching it. It's entertaining and I follow a team, and it gives me more pleasure when they win.

But would I still give a s*** a week or two later? Probably not. Not any more. Back in the Moorabbin days though, I would have got a Saints tattoo, sworn to name my first born Tony and still be celebrating 3 years later.


And FWIW, I think that's the issue that lies ahead for the AFL. Supporters like me, and the ones that the AFL lured in with the shiny jumpers, bright lights and high scoring footy - don't love clubs any more. They are consumers of a product. And as consumers do, when something better comes along they simply move on.

Once the diehards like many on this site move on, wake up or die, the average AFL fan will just be a consumer. And they'll be very hard to hold onto when there's soccer, NFL, NBA and even the UFC to contend with. The AFL has always had the emotional members. Always. And the reason for that was the clubs. Now that the clubs aren't clubs anymore, with no genuine link to their fans, these types of supporters will disappear.

There's plenty of entertainment options out there.

[Johnny Member]

You have to give some credit to ... Geelong for getting up there when they basically got absolutely nothing from the draft. A fair effort.

Father Son draft exceptions and Dank and Robinson almost certainly cheating there.

Well yes the F/S certainly helped their 3 flag years but I am specifically referring to their ability to get back in to top 4 after being 10th in 2015. Not sure they have got many good draft picks or any F/S in the last four years while GWS have been stockpiling the lion's share of talent.

A home ground make a big difference.

Being able to get what is realistically a 4-5 goal advantage in 6-7 home games each year gives you a fair advantage before the season even starts. Even Gold Coast and Brisbane are different teams at their home ground. Freo at their worst were hard to beat at home.

Not all clubs have a home prelim available to them either.

[barneyboyz]

It has made us become more professional in our own business. I have to agree on varying levels with most opinions here, it's a little both ways, however in the mid eighties we were heading for abomination, and anything we have right now, is stronger than most of our history showed.

Further, if not for some major 'bad' luck and planning, we'd have 2 - 3 flags since mid eighties, and be looking at this from a totally different angle.

But my point is, it's not 'our' business anymore.

And my other point, is that whether we'd have won 2-3 flags or not is irrelevant.


St Kilda 2016 winning an AFL flag for me, is a completely different ball park to the St Kilda of 1987 winning a flag.


The St Kilda of 1987 was a club. It was a club I grew up supporting passionately and a flag back then would have meant something out of this world to me. I would have felt represented by the club, and I would have felt part of it. I also would have taken incredible pride from the club I was born into as a supporter, taking out the best sporting comp in the world.

However the St Kilda 2016 would have the same sort of appeal and value as the Storm, or West Ham or the Golden State Warriors winning one. They're all basically franchises playing in an entertainment business. I love sport, and get pleasure out of watching it. It's entertaining and I follow a team, and it gives me more pleasure when they win.

But would I still give a s*** a week or two later? Probably not. Not any more. Back in the Moorabbin days though, I would have got a Saints tattoo, sworn to name my first born Tony and still be celebrating 3 years later.


And FWIW, I think that's the issue that lies ahead for the AFL. Supporters like me, and the ones that the AFL lured in with the shiny jumpers, bright lights and high scoring footy - don't love clubs any more. They are consumers of a product. And as consumers do, when something better comes along they simply move on.

Once the diehards like many on this site move on, wake up or die, the average AFL fan will just be a consumer. And they'll be very hard to hold onto when there's soccer, NFL, NBA and even the UFC to contend with. The AFL has always had the emotional members. Always. And the reason for that was the clubs. Now that the clubs aren't clubs anymore, with no genuine link to their fans, these types of supporters will disappear.

There's plenty of entertainment options out there.

I feel your passion, and your pain and agree with what you say. I have 40 odd years of the same things and have tried walking away from football many times in recent years due to the system of it all, but still keep coming back.

Time will tell on the AFL as to what it becomes, I found going to watch my kids playing at the local footy is more real to me nowadays, but I will be the first one booked for the tattoo if the Saints ever win another flag in my lifetime

[Johnny Member]

I feel your passion, and your pain and agree with what you say. I have 40 odd years of the same things and have tried walking away from football many times in recent years due to the system of it all, but still keep coming back.

Time will tell on the AFL as to what it becomes, I found going to watch my kids playing at the local footy is more real to me nowadays, but I will be the first one booked for the tattoo if the Saints ever win another flag in my lifetime

There's no pain anymore. It is what it is.

FWIW, I enjoy watching footy for what it is - entertainment. I watch it and sometimes enjoy it, other times find it boring. The same as I do with the soccer, the rugby or the NBA.

But as the AFL marketing guy once said on radio - "I consume the product" in a different way to what I used to.

[SaintPav]

Saintsaintional's own Todd Sampson. Spare me.

Speak for yourself.