Sobering stats from last night

[Teflon]

I totally agree with Teflon. I've been saying it all year

But I don't think it's sobering. Its obvious and has been since Lyon left.

We won't contend again until we get a good core of very good player in that 100-200 game bracket.

The guys we have in that bracket now, are VFL standard realistically.

It won't be until the McCartins, Billings', Greshams etc. Are the ones in that bracket that we will be a chance. That's 2-3 years away. Until then it's all about devloping slowly but surely.

I agree - what worries me a little is we have to gamble on the Freemans of the world to miraculously get ver chronic issues right to fast track some class in the middle.....very long shot for mine but I understand the club having to take a risk when you dont have Swans academies to hide players in...

Acres is quality he's got the class Gresham too - McCartin....if he dont mark it and it hits the ground.....hhmm...Billings has the tricks does hed have the drive or want to be there?

Its a numbers game in the end - the side with the greater numbers of skillful/talented players usually win. We are a bit lean for now and I agree we carry some very good VFL players who wouldnt get games in top 4 sides.....untill we carry far less of these we will be found wanting when it matters.

How we trade/draft is crucial - I have always worried about us rising too fast and I think Richo mentioned this as a bit if a trap at one point....we also still need to play the FA game at the right time but thats not now as we are some way off imo.

[kosifantutti]

Aliir is just great recruiting.


Heeney et al is part of the acedemy rort that guarantees aunfaor access to elite talent irrespective of how high or low the Swans finish.

Yep Aliir is great recruiting. They got it right. 3rd rounder at pick #44.

The Sydney academy though is another part of the lack of a level playing field in the national comp. Mills, Heeney, McVeigh and Parker from yesterday's team all from the Sydney academy that the Swans can cherry pick. They have their very own talent incubator with a huge pool of young players to choose from.
The AFL is very determined to keep the Sydney clubs strong - it's such a big market - the fixture, stadium deals etc etc.....

They do get a huge leg up from the academy but McVeigh and Parker didn't come through there.

[st.byron]

Aliir is just great recruiting.


Heeney et al is part of the acedemy rort that guarantees aunfaor access to elite talent irrespective of how high or low the Swans finish.

Yep Aliir is great recruiting. They got it right. 3rd rounder at pick #44.

The Sydney academy though is another part of the lack of a level playing field in the national comp. Mills, Heeney, McVeigh and Parker from yesterday's team all from the Sydney academy that the Swans can cherry pick. They have their very own talent incubator with a huge pool of young players to choose from.
The AFL is very determined to keep the Sydney clubs strong - it's such a big market - the fixture, stadium deals etc etc.....

They do get a huge leg up from the academy but McVeigh and Parker didn't come through there.

My bad. Misread an article I googled. Parker from Dandy Stingrays, second rounder in 2011 (#40) and McVeigh first round pick (#5) in 2002.
They must be doing something right up there to be consistently bringing second and third round picks to be excellent players. Money and depth of resources me thinks.

[Devilhead]

See below a comparison of current midfields - Saints v Swans

Saints Midfield

David Armitage - 28 - 128 games
Jack Steven - 26 - 112 games
Seb Ross - 23 - 49 games
Luke Dunstan - 21 - 35 games (DNP)
Blake Acres - 20 - 13 games
Jade Gresham - 18 - 16 games

Average Age - 22.7
Average Games - 58.8

Swans Midfield

Jarrad McVeigh - 31 - 273 games
Josh Kennedy - 28 - 167 games
Daniel Hanneberry - 25 - 154 games
Luke Parker - 23 - 111 games
Tom Mitchell - 23 - 49 games
Jake Lloyd - 22 - 53 games

Average Age - 25.3
Average Games - 134.5

Now that is sobering!

Quite amazing that we stayed with them for a half

[The Fireman]

those stats make me feel a little better.

[SemperFidelis]

those stats make me feel a little better.

+1

[Con Gorozidis]

Parker must have never missed a game. 111 at 23 is pretty bloody amazing.
Hannebery cant have missed many either.

[saint-stu]

Exactly Devilhead. A team of 18-21 year olds with some 30+s vs a team around 22-28 may have similar averages but I know which I would bet on.

[Con Gorozidis]

Exactly Devilhead. A team of 18-21 year olds with some 30+s vs a team around 22-28 may have similar averages but I know which I would bet on.

Except they had 9 guys with under 50 games/8 guys under 23.

Our 'Dad's Army' defence did skew our average age upwards.

But it wasnt all said and done in the midfield. Inside 50s were 48:60. We werent disgraced there.

The fact that they scored 146 points from 60 I50s indicates our 'Dads Army' defence were woeful.

By comparison in the GWS v WC game - they both had 59/58 I50s and both scored under 100 points.

Think about it.

It is folly to blame the result purely on the midfield

Our old and short defence has escaped scrutiny for too long.

Trying to pretend we lost because we are 'young' in the midfield is just denying the reality that our defence is too old and too short and frankly too s***. It is head in sand stuff.

Statistically speaking we have the 5th worst defence in the comp.

Not sure how long everyone is going to pretend this isnt the case.

[The Fireman]

I don't see a lot of denial..we play with what we have and we all know its not just about the mid field.

just trying to make sense of where we are compared to the best.


and tbh they looked f****** good. we can only hope we can match that in the near future.

[st.byron]

Parker must have never missed a game. 111 at 23 is pretty bloody amazing.
Hannebery cant have missed many either.

Hannebery - missed 6 games in 5 years.
Parker - 11 games in 5 years.
Kennedy - 2 games in 7 years.
McVeigh - 5 games in 7 years.
Jack - 8 games in 9 years.

What a run of having all their prime mids on the park together.

[Devilhead]

Exactly Devilhead. A team of 18-21 year olds with some 30+s vs a team around 22-28 may have similar averages but I know which I would bet on.

Except they had 9 guys with under 50 games/8 guys under 23.

Our 'Dad's Army' defence did skew our average age upwards.

But it wasnt all said and done in the midfield. Inside 50s were 48:60. We werent disgraced there.

The fact that they scored 146 points from 60 I50s indicates our 'Dads Army' defence were woeful.

By comparison in the GWS v WC game - they both had 59/58 I50s and both scored under 100 points.

Think about it.

It is folly to blame the result purely on the midfield

Our old and short defence has escaped scrutiny for too long.

Trying to pretend we lost because we are 'young' in the midfield is just denying the reality that our defence is too old and too short and frankly too s***. It is head in sand stuff.

Statistically speaking we have the 5th worst defence in the comp.

Not sure how long everyone is going to pretend this isnt the case.

I dont think CG that anyone is in denial about our aging shortarse defence - its quite clear that we need some new blood in there - obviously Carlisle will help and the addition of Hurley would pretty much sort it knowing that we still have Coughlan and Goddard developing - we are ok for young flankers and smaller pockets but if we cant land Hurley then I feel we will be still one short down there who can handle a second big mobile forward which a lot of the better teams have

Re: mids - we still need an injection of extra class but currently our relatively young group are tracking well considering their inexperience

Quite happy to sort out the defence first and then turn our attention to reinforcing the midfield through free agency or trading next year

[saintspremiers]

The Hannerbery/McVeigh combo is pure elite. Right up with the best of the best in the midfield. Should be flag winning stuff sadly.

[Life Long Saint]

Parker must have never missed a game. 111 at 23 is pretty bloody amazing.
Hannebery cant have missed many either.

Hannebery - missed 6 games in 5 years.
Parker - 11 games in 5 years.
Kennedy - 2 games in 7 years.
McVeigh - 5 games in 7 years.
Jack - 8 games in 9 years.

What a run of having all their prime mids on the park together.

Those five alone would stretch the salary cap of most teams.
Throw in Franklin and Tippett to that side.
The ridiculous COLA they had for so long allowed them to plunder the best talent from other teams.
Lockett, Hall, Kennedy, McGlinn, Mumford, Ball...the list goes on.

It's a indictment that they've only won two flags in this era.

[Johnny Member]

FWIW, we played finals for 10 years and played in successive GFs - and after only 3 years toward the bottom, we're back and pressing towards a finals berth.

The system is what it is, and we've played the system and learned the new rules of the modern game as well as anyone just about.


Where we went wrong, was letting Lyon loose in the hen house if we want to blame anything - other than the very essence of the system. The whole point of the 'system' is that clubs have a crack, then they lose players and get their s*** together (also know as rebuilding) whilst other clubs have a crack. Obviously the rules are tweaked to ensure that certain clubs don't spend too much time, if any, getting their s*** together. And I agree, that is bulls***.

But we just brought in too many washed up or no good 'mature' footballers, where we should really have been taking punts on late draft picks instead of playing safe and getting average players from other clubs. Lyon loved this s***. Still does.

I think it's a myth that clubs don't let coaches recruit players. Lyon clearly did it with us. Watters did too. I mean Alastair Clarkson even personally met with Frawley and Carlisle. He wouldn't do that unless he wanted them.

Lyon had a flawed theory on winning flags and still does. If not for some level heads at our club in 2013, we'd be in deeper s*** than we've probably ever been in thanks to the flawed decision making by Lyon during his era.

But in reality, once Hawthorn lose Hodge and Mitchell and Lewis and Gibson etc. etc. they'll be an also ran. Geelong have shown that having heaps of B-Graders like Duncan, Guthrie and Caddy and Blicavs doesn't mean s*** unless you've got enough genuine superstars to get you over the line. Dangerfield and Selwood lift them single handedly each week.

The big error they've made, is recruiting Henderson, Stanley and co. instead of stocking up on draft picks and preparing for the days when Enright, Bartel, Taylor and Mackie give it away.


The worry for us is simply that I don't think we've found the talent that we needed to. Most likely as a result of GWS and GC getting all the good kids whilst we were building from the Draft.


As Teflon stated earlier, unless you have the talent, even once you hit the peak of your powers when the bulk of your list is in the 100-200 game bracket, you'll merely end up like a Richmond, North or a Carlton under Ratten.

[Devilhead]

Isn't that what we plan to do with our remaining SC space ........ bring in A-grade talent??

If the reports are correct we have enough room to bring in around 2 or 3 guns over the next few years

Or am I hearing incorrectly?

[st.byron]

Excellent post Johnny. I reckon you've summed all those issues up exactly as they are. Spot on.

I agree with what you wrote about Lyon. Watters brought in some list cloggers as well, but as least during his tenure we found some decent players as well. Lyon was totally into bringing in rejects from other clubs.

Recruiting during the Lyon and Watters years :

2008
Ray
Lynch
Stanley
Heyne
Smith
Cahill
Begley


2009
Lovett
Peake
Winmar
Jesse Smith
Pattison

2010
Cripps
Crocker
Ledger
Siposs
Gamble
Polo

2011
Ross
Newnes
Webster
Shenton
Micnhington
Milera
Saad
Markworth
Lever
Maister

2012
Lee
Roberton
Hickey
Wright
White
Murdoch
Saunders
Pierce

[Johnny Member]

Isn't that what we plan to do with our remaining SC space ........ bring in A-grade talent??

If the reports are correct we have enough room to bring in around 2 or 3 guns over the next few years

Or am I hearing incorrectly?

My understanding is that that is the intention.


My harping on about it is not to express frustration at the club, but instead highlight some perspective as to where we're actually at, as opposed to where some overexcited supporters think we should be at.

[saintsRrising]

Isn't that what we plan to do with our remaining SC space ........ bring in A-grade talent??

If the reports are correct we have enough room to bring in around 2 or 3 guns over the next few years

Or am I hearing incorrectly?

Yes that is the plan. However it is a a LOT, LOT easier said than done.


Over the decades how much genuine A-Grade talent have the Saints actually been able to land from other AFL/VFL clubs, and in particuar in a batch? By that I mean stars at their prime. Not those like McConville who were past their best.

The answer is bugga all. So do so now in a few short years would be a major change.

From memory we have only had:

- The Swans raid of Fishoni and Morwood.

- The period when we gained Gehrig, Penny and Hamill. Hamill was an out and out gun when we gained him (Thanks John!), Penny was to be a star full back but his knee cruelled him, and Gehrig only really became a superstar after he joined the Saints and in particular after we switched him from FB to FF.

- The trade to get Dempster and Schneider. Add Gardiner to that and the despite all the gnashing of teeth of the churning through of players from other clubs in Lyon era we actually did better than throughout most of our history.



I remain sceptical about our ability to attract an out and out superstar gun like a Fyfe...or even say just a very good mid. I hope like hell that we do, but am fearfull that at the end of the day that we will at best land players like say Jack Steeele.

For all the who har about the Cats landing Dangerfield if Dangerfield was not wanting to live where he now does he would be at another club if the Cats was not the local club. So I think we will also need a stroke of fortune our way.......or some amazing deal like a mammoth salary to Fyfe.

However with say Fyffe you could imagine that the Hawks could be into him....he to take over from the aging Crawford keep the Haks in the to GF for another several years. After missing flags with Freo the lure of that would be strong for Fyfe and he would most likely be happy to play for less $$$ with the Hawks than for us. That is why we had to pay health $$$ for Carlisle.

[saintsRrising]

Excellent post Johnny. I reckon you've summed all those issues up exactly as they are. Spot on.

I agree with what you wrote about Lyon. Watters brought in some list cloggers as well, but as least during his tenure we found some decent players as well. Lyon was totally into bringing in rejects from other clubs.

Recruiting during the Lyon and Watters years :

2008
Ray
Lynch
Stanley
Heyne
Smith
Cahill
Begley


2009
Lovett
Peake
Winmar
Jesse Smith
Pattison

2010
Cripps
Crocker
Ledger
Siposs
Gamble
Polo

2011
Ross
Newnes
Webster
Shenton
Micnhington
Milera
Saad
Markworth
Lever
Maister

2012
Lee
Roberton
Hickey
Wright
White
Murdoch
Saunders
Pierce

You are being selective there. What happened to Demspter, Schneider and Gardiner? You know players where Lyon probably was a factor in...along with Lovett and cousins (Westaway said no).

Lets face it...our recruiting team from half way tthrough the Lyon era to until recently were just absolute crap. Probably the AFL's worst and all this assigning blame to the coaches is in the main IMO just wrong. all the coaches made use of players from other clubs, and given the proven inability of our recuiters to actually spot any reasonable level of draft talent in that era can one blame them?


Good Admins help to land good players from other clubs. The early part of the GT era we had a great off-field team before the infighting all began, and we landeda good crop of players in that period. The coach is normally only a bit player in landing talent from another club unless there is some particular reason or history. Not the kingpin in most cases.

Lyon was under the Westaway admin.... a bunch of inept jokers and arguably one of the worst admins that we ever had. At least our admin is looking good again, and this may give us a chance of actually landing some genuine star talent.

[st.byron]

You are being selective there. What happened to Demspter, Schneider and Gardiner? You know players where Lyon probably was a factor in...along with Lovett and cousins (Westaway said no).

Lets face it...our recruiting team from half way tthrough the Lyon era to until recently were just absolute crap. Probably the AFL's worst and all this assigning blame to the coaches is in the main IMO just wrong. all the coaches made use of players from other clubs, and given the proven inability of our recuiters to actually spot any reasonable level of draft talent in that era can one blame them?


Good Admins help to land good players from other clubs. The early part of the GT era we had a great off-field team before the infighting all began, and we landeda good crop of players in that period. The coach is normally only a bit player in landing talent from another club unless there is some particular reason or history. Not the kingpin in most cases.

Lyon was under the Westaway admin.... a bunch of inept jokers and arguably one of the worst admins that we ever had. At least our admin is looking good again, and this may give us a chance of actually landing some genuine star talent.

Not intentionally selective. Didn't look at the end of 2007 trade and draft period. Quite correct that Dempster, Schneider and Gardi all came in then. We also picked up McEVoy and Jack Steven (pick 42!!!) Interesting debate as to how much input the admin / coach have into recruiting. For me, I still lay a lot of blame for our recruiting in that period on Lyon. And I know we've had this discussion times over and it's not the focus of this thread.

[BigMart]

Sick as f this f***ing age makes a difference argument... Or should I say... Excuse

Sydney flogged us because they are better players

Parker is 23
Armo is 28

Parker is far superior

Bulldogs
Bontempelli, Wallis, Liberatore, McRrae, Daniel, McLean
Check out there ages

Quality needs no birth certificate

Sydney were able to monster our mids because they were bigger and better

[Johnny Member]

Why were they bigger? Why were they better?

I grew the older I got.

I got better at things the more experience I had.



Absolute folly to ignore experience as a factor in a footballers performance. Absolute nonsense to suggest it's irrelevant.

[spert]

Experience is good, but you also need skill, and our midfield has a long way to go yet. Acres, Dustan and Gresh will continue to develop. Armo is a honest worker at best, Steven is great when switched on, but sadly seems to be an easy tag and Ross is promising, but not a mid who takes a game on. We need to recruit more class in the midfield.

[st.byron]

Why were they bigger? Why were they better?

I grew the older I got.

I got better at things the more experience I had.



Absolute folly to ignore experience as a factor in a footballers performance. Absolute nonsense to suggest it's irrelevant.

Also relevant is the amount of playing time together. All of the Swans midfield have all played the vast majority of games together for the last five years. Time to really know each other's strengths and play to them.