Six of the Hardest (violent) 10 men of AFL/VFL are saints!

[White Winmar]

I just received some footage of the ten men rated hardest to have played in the modern era. Not a great advertisement for the saints. Six of the ten played for St. Kilda! For the record, they were, at number ten, was aLazar Vidovic. I thought this must be wrong, but the "highlights" showed he was a mean and dirty hombre. I wonder if he would've made the difference in the 1997 GF? I doubt Rehn and pathetic Pittman would've had much influence.

Number nine was the inimitable Robert "Mad Dog" Muir (the clue is in the nickname). One of the greatest unfulfilled talents, ever. Number eight was that very stable individual, Mark "I am not an animal, I'm a human being" Jackson. Number four, ironically, was the greatest player I have ever seen, Anthony Howard Lockett. He was the only one to be honoured with some off field footage. Crutches and Eddie McGuire, anyone? Number three was my boyhood hero, the shadow, Carl Ditterich. I know he was reported nineteen times for 30 games of suspension, but if he'd played in the days of multiple cameras and MRP's, l think he might have managed twenty career games or so. He was truly terrifying. At number two, was big,bad, bustling, beany boy, Barry Hall. He was just an out and out thug, with huge anger management issues. Good player though. I remember Bevo saying back in preseason 1997, that Baz had the ability to be the next Wayne Carey. Big call, but his combination of talent and ability to physically intimidate the opposition was pretty impressive. Close, Bevo, but not quite. It was conditional on BBBBB Barry getting away from his dad, which he did. Alas, too late for the saints.

Number one was the second best player, IMHO, "Lethal" Leigh Matthews. He made Ditterich look like Gandhi. The show reel is quite disgusting. Maybe Quentin Tarantino could make a film about him. The subject material might be too violent, though. The others who rated a mention were Dermott Brereton, Greg Williams and Dipper. The footage is a reminder of just how much the game has been cleaned up.

As a callow your copper, I remember Senior Sergeant Jeans amazing us young fellas with legendary tales of the Hawks and saints games in the 70's. While the 1971 GF is generally considered only second to the infamous 'bloodbath' of 1945 as the most violent game in VFL/AFL history, Allan always maintained that the GF replay of 1972 at Moorabbin was far worse, with the umpires literally putting the whistle away. Even the legendary Cowboy apparently said it was one of the few times in his life he genuinely feared for his safety.

I wonder what Jeansy would have made of the footage. He was in the unique position of having coached Muir, Ditterich, Brereton, Dipper and Matthews. He always said that there were plenty of hard men in his playing and coaching days, but that Ditterich and Barney (never heard him mention lethal) were in a league of their own. He said Matthews was "capable of anything" once he got a certain blankness to his expression. Most blokes did these things when they were angry. Matthews did them with ice running through his veins, and we didn't' have methamphetamine in those days.

Carl was just angry and full of energy. Calipers on his legs and his German ancestry ensured he copped plenty of bullying and ragging throughout his childhood. What a terrible revenge he exacted on the football field. Strangely, Carl, like the cowboy, was a loveable and personable fellow off the field. Unlike Matthews, who was said to be aloof and somewhat insular. Jeansy always maintained that if Matthews hadn't had football, hadn't been a husband and father by nineteen and been at a club like Hawthorn, he shuddered to think what might have happened, or where he may have ended up. Sliding doors, forks in roads, etc.

It certainly makes me wonder about Bobby Muir. He lived a few blocks away from me as a kid and he would often kick the footy with us in the street and seemed a genuinely nice bloke. I think in today's AFl environment, with the elimination of racism and better support for indigenous players, he could've been anything. Highly skilled, quick, explosive and had the ability to do special things. Sort of what we could do with on the list today. Anyone got some more to add to the list? Please, no more Sainters!

[one point]

Great post. Thanks WW.

[saintspremiers]

WW your writing talents are wasted on here.

You should send some of your material to The Age for publication

[derby Street]

W.W you are in a rich vein of literary form - really enjoy your posts. Thanks.

[asiu]

yea ... agreed ... good work WW.

a comment made about the 72 gf replay sent me off on a googling exercise
and whilst aware its 'off topic' i thoroughly enjoyed the read of what dr google served up
... so i figured i best share


http://www.fnwb.com.au/uncategorized/st ... but-didnt/

[noddy04]

I worked with and played country football against Robert Muir. He was a good bloke at work but a complete (gee its hard to describe him without getting banned) He was a bash artist an absolute dirty bastard and that was just to his son. No pride from me that he played for the saints. I even wore a saints jumper at footy training with his number on it. A total nut. Kicked out of country football clubs because of his on field antics and because of his off field antics. My personal opinion is he was a bit like lee Mathews....a dirty sniper....my opinion

[BigMart]

I don't think being a thug is anything to be proud of... Some of those players were great, the dirty tag only took away from their exploits.

[Bernard Shakey]

Sad but true, and they didn't even mention Eric Guy!

[Linton Lodger]

Vidovic was highly regarded by his team mates, they felt protected and that he made them walk taller.

Stan Alves has been known to say, that despite all the challenges that faced us going into the '97 GF, Everitt's injury, Winmar & Loewe's issues, Jarman - if he'd had Lazar playing we would have won it without a doubt.

[White Winmar]

I don't think being a thug is anything to be proud of... Some of those players were great, the dirty tag only took away from their exploits.

Agreed BM, that was one of the aims of the post. I think it's sad that players are remembered in this way. It's ugly, but reminds us that despite massive changes to the game over the past 50 years, those changes have, in the main, been good for the game. Certainly from the view of reducing violence and the devastating effects of injury.

I feel for Stuart Trott who was knocked out a couple of times in the '71 GF, rendering his memory of what should have been one of his finest footballing memories, non existent. Likewise, Peter Hudson, who has no memory of the game and was robbed of the VFL, season goal kicking record. Muir's career was severely curtailed and ultimately ended by his violence, while Vidovic and Jackson just weren't all that good and were not in the same class as the others, purely as players. Brereton has been commemorated in a song as a hood and Dipper's Brownlow was most notorious for the shock it caused and the mockery it made of the term, "fairest". Same for Williams, who probably would've won at least another Brownlow except for his constant abuse of umpires and violence towards opponents. Lethal and Plugger, while lauded as the greatest player and greatest goal kicker respectively, are often remembered and linked to victims like Bruns and Caven.

I don't know who did the ratings and compiled the list, but it is, sadly, hard to argue with. Without trying to be an Essendope basher, what about "Rotten" Ronnie Andrews, and Roger Merret, the testicle harvester? They also could've slandered the saints further by throwing in the Pascoe brothers. Anyone remember them? We had some fearsome buggers play for us. No wonder no one liked playing at Moorabbin.

I'll never forget the 1992 Adelaide game at Football Park. Who was in our hotel and in one of the bars at the game? No less than Rotten Ronnie and Robbie, menacing as an Aussie version of the Kray brothers. My friends and I had a beer with them, returned to our seats and watched the saints lose.

Next morning, as we were getting ready to leave, I bumped into Robbie in the hotel foyer, he had massive scratch marks down his face and neck and a swollen eye. He and Ronnie gave a few Adelaide boys a bit of "what for" in the bar, and after the game were thrown out by the police who didn't charge them, but gave them a couple of "receipts" as a souvenir of their visit. Robbie invited my mates and me for a piss up in Bordertown later that day. I'll never forget driving into the town, seeing Rotten and Robbie with a couple of others sucking cans by the side of the road and looking very much worse for wear. Gee, I'm glad we didn't accept the invitation. I never did see Robbie again after that. So very, very, sad.

[loris]

Also Jim Read and Jim O'Dea weren't very Saintly with their King hits.

[White Winmar]

Also Jim Read and Jim O'Dea weren't very Saintly with their King hits.

Eric Guy Was made of concrete from the waist down. A genuine hard man, I'm told. Read and O'Dea were fierce and feared. Did Jimmy get unfairly labelled as a thug because of the Greening incident, Loris? And who could forget the animal-loving Doug Booth? We must have been the most physically feared club in the comp in 1978. Still reckon we could've pinched it that year.

[Bernard Shakey]

Also Jim Read and Jim O'Dea weren't very Saintly with their King hits.

Eric Guy Was made of concrete from the waist down. A genuine hard man, I'm told. Read and O'Dea were fierce and feared. Did Jimmy get unfairly labelled as a thug because of the Greening incident, Loris? And who could forget the animal-loving Doug Booth? We must have been the most physically feared club in the comp in 1978. Still reckon we could've pinched it that year.

Jimmy was a hard man, but was definitely hung out to dry for one incident.

[bigcarl]

Good work White Winmar. I enjoyed that.

[Legendary]

Vidovic said that if he had played in '97, he would have been banned for life afterwards; he said he would have cleaned up as many as he could, including Jarman in the second half.

[saynta]

Vidovic was highly regarded by his team mates, they felt protected and that he made them walk taller.

Stan Alves has been known to say, that despite all the challenges that faced us going into the '97 GF, Everitt's injury, Winmar & Loewe's issues, Jarman - if he'd had Lazar playing we would have won it without a doubt.

Smith was also a loss.

O'dea, Sidebottom and Jeff Sarau were also hard men and feared Sainters. When those three plus Ditterich and Robbie played in the same team, other sides didn't even want to venture onto the ground.

[Superboot]

As a teenager in the '60s, and young adult in the '70s, I firmly believed that the thugs played for other teams, that our guys were just retaliating, and that the Shadow was just awkward!

[White Winmar]

As a teenager in the '60s, and young adult in the '70s, I firmly believed that the thugs played for other teams, that our guys were just retaliating, and that the Shadow was just awkward!

Of course you were right, Sb. Awkward running style caused his arms to flail about wildly and his "knock knees" would regularly collapse into an unsuspecting opponent. Every one was an accident. Just a case of plain old bad luck. He was my hero, too.

Defended him without hesitation to my footy mates who said he was a filthy animal. The "animals" game against the dopers at Moorabbin in 1978 was a nasty wake up call. He King hit that menacing giant of a man, Terry Cahill, right in front of where me and my best mate, a bomber, were standing. I can still remember the noise it made. I think it was Simon Madden who tried to square up, rather halfheartedly and big Carl swatted him like an annoying fly.

The crowd was pretty berserk that day as well. One bloke who escaped scrutiny that day was Jack Mihocek. While the bummers President was quick to label us animals in the press, he conveniently overlooked the fact that Mihocek King hit Joffa, knocking him out, while Neagle and Andrews did their best to snipe at anyone they could sneak up on from behind. When Carl nailed the sealing goal(how sweet was that?) an idiot bummers fan tried to start a fight. He was dealt with as swiftly as Terry Cahill had been. That 1978 side was truly frightening. Ditterich, Booth, Sarau, O'Dea, Sidebottom, Hunt, Cunningham, Muir, Burns et al.

[happy feet]

Also Jim Read and Jim O'Dea weren't very Saintly with their King hits.

Eric Guy Was made of concrete from the waist down. A genuine hard man, I'm told. Read and O'Dea were fierce and feared. Did Jimmy get unfairly labelled as a thug because of the Greening incident, Loris? And who could forget the animal-loving Doug Booth? We must have been the most physically feared club in the comp in 1978. Still reckon we could've pinched it that year.

My Dad saws just about every Saints home game from the late 1940s up until he died a few years ago. He knew Eric Guy and rates him as the toughest player to have played the game. He was tough but fair, was not a sniper. He reckoned Leigh Matthews was a cream puff compared to Ecca. He recalled an incident to me about when Ecca shirt fronted Bobby Skilton at the Junction Oval. Alan Jeans took Ecca off at 3/4 time as he feared for his safety as the Swans crowd were so incensed. Apparently after the game Skilton said it was a fair hit and that they were still mates. A different era.

[saynta]

Also Jim Read and Jim O'Dea weren't very Saintly with their King hits.

Eric Guy Was made of concrete from the waist down. A genuine hard man, I'm told. Read and O'Dea were fierce and feared. Did Jimmy get unfairly labelled as a thug because of the Greening incident, Loris? And who could forget the animal-loving Doug Booth? We must have been the most physically feared club in the comp in 1978. Still reckon we could've pinched it that year.

My Dad saws just about every Saints home game from the late 1940s up until he died a few years ago. He knew Eric Guy and rates him as the toughest player to have played the game. He was tough but fair, was not a sniper. He reckoned Leigh Matthews was a cream puff compared to Ecca. He recalled an incident to me about when Ecca shirt fronted Bobby Skilton at the Junction Oval. Alan Jeans took Ecca off at 3/4 time as he feared for his safety as the Swans crowd were so incensed. Apparently after the game Skilton said it was a fair hit and that they were still mates. A different era.

I was at that game , still remember that hit. Skilton had the ball on the outer wing Guy shirtfronted him..sliced him right dowm the middle. Bobby's face looked looked he had been in a car crash. Fair bump at the time. Today he would get 10 to 15 weeks.

[stonecold]

Joffa Cunningham was highly underrated for his toughness externally but certainly not within the club!!!!! Joffa was a hardarse!!!!#

[borderbarry]

I cant see how Lazar Vidovic got a mention and no Ken Boyd, Bluey Shelton, Jack Dyer, Charlie Sutton etc. To me it is as if the article was written with a bias towards the Saints.

[stevie]

I cant see how Lazar Vidovic got a mention and no Ken Boyd, Bluey Shelton, Jack Dyer, Charlie Sutton etc. To me it is as if the article was written with a bias towards the Saints.

Exactly. where's Mal brown, balme, Whitten , Mopsy Fraser etc. Or is it just of the modern era? From mid 70's?

[White Winmar]

I cant see how Lazar Vidovic got a mention and no Ken Boyd, Bluey Shelton, Jack Dyer, Charlie Sutton etc. To me it is as if the article was written with a bias towards the Saints.

Exactly. where's Mal brown, balme, Whitten , Mopsy Fraser etc. Or is it just of the modern era? From mid 70's?

Modern era, 1970 onwards, Stevie. Mal Brown got an "honourable" mention, as did Rhys-Jones. Author of the original footage and compilation of list is Unknown. As nasty as he was, surely Lazar wasn't as bad as Nicholls or Whitten?

[ace]

As a teenager in the '60s, and young adult in the '70s, I firmly believed that the thugs played for other teams, that our guys were just retaliating, and that the Shadow was just awkward!

The opposing teams definitely deserved everything they got and then some.
Our players were Saints compared to their evil opponents.
If an opponent were hurt it was because they needed to taught not to be so bad.
Our boys never hurt anyone who did not deserve it.