St Kilda condemns Frawley's joke about Caroline Wilson

[suss]

I think it's hilarious how many self appointed moral guardians have been shown up on this issue. So many have been so appalled at the "violence" of a joke implying that a disliked "woman" (not a person note, a woman) being drowned. The overwrought reactions because it is a woman reveal your lies - you care not for equality, you see it as a special "crime" because it's a woman, and thus deserving of a special new level of faux outrage. I just about guarantee that had the comment been aimed at Damian Barrett, most have you would have joined in on the "gag". If you were genuinely engaged in the pursuit of equality, as opposed to virtue signalling, the gender of the "victim" would be irrelevant.

For all the references to misogyny, sexism and "blokeness" etc, the majority of the outraged add up to little more than puffed up social justice warriors making sure that your friends notice your high moral fibre. The fact that you unquestioningly gobble up all of the myths and propaganda spewed out by third wave feminist militants without a word of question, and ask for more, makes me sick.

The facts are that in the western world there has never been a more privileged group than the modern middle-class female, they are ahead of males on every key measure you can name:
Homelessness - 80% males
Suicide - 80% males
Violence - 80% male victims
Murder - 70% male victims
Education - 60% of university entrants are female
Health - spending on females is 3 times that on males - more males die of gender specific illness than females
Industrial Accident deaths - 96% males

If any of the outraged bothered to do any of their own research and reading rather than hopping on the latest trendy social media bandwagon, then you might be able to have a proper discussion, rather than regurgitate media driven slogans....

You make a valid point, several in fact.

No he doesn't. Most of it's crap.

Men murder men 70% Fact ...men are violent .I don't get your point ..which is the whole point....men are violent women usually not your stats show that men are involved in violence ..let's try to stop it.

Actually most of those stats have nothing to do with violence - they have to do with life outcomes. And no, women not usually violent is another furphy. The most recent statistics within Australia put at least 35% of victims of domestic abuse as male, and studies in Western Europe and the USA put that number anywhere between 35% and 50%. Their partners, and abusers, are female.

Yet more crap ... any citations from credible sources you wish to share?

[Linton Lodger]

I'm utterly sick of this nonsense. I do not endorse the comments made and I'm no fan of Eddie McGuire, specifically I think he's a bogan boofhead.

However, this Hullabaloo about poor Caro and the inappropriateness of this and that, running for 3 or 4 days in the media is a joke. We all know what was meant. Most journos are grubs at the best of times, Caro being one. Caro suggested McGuire's head should roll a few weeks ago and she's allowed to. That pissed Eddie off and he's entitled to feel that way. So in quite common vernacular he basically says he doesn't think much of Caro - I assume no one actually believes he was inciting or suggesting violence as retaliation - whilst a couple of others (including Spud) agree with him. No doubt that Caro has written stuff that pissed them off too.

I would suggest that in a land of free speech: Caro has the right to express her opinion and people she may upset have the right to infer she''s a grubby asshole. Don't get me wrong it was a witless and crude way of saying "I don't like Caro", and it was inappropriate. Yet no one is forcing anyone to listen to Eddie McGuire and to suggest that he's endorsed violence against women is mindless crap.

This is quite different to his comments regarding Adam Goodes, where he basically inferred that Adam Goodes looked like an ape and would be available for mindless stunts.

Fundamentally, at the end of the day I couldn't give a rat's arse about what he said about Caro or indeed if she'd said it about him.

[asaint]

Poor Sam Newman, he is a dinosaur and will never get it. Please retire soon.

[Enrico_Misso]

Agree Sam has no idea.

But Carro is also very good at dishing out criticism without ascertaining the facts and considering the collateral damage.
Unlike herself her victims do not have newspaper inches, a TV spot and a radio spot to defend themselves.

[Linton Lodger]

Caro's good at selling newspapers.

[bigcarlosis]

Storm in a teacup......
Everyone knows you can't drown a witch, they just float back up and cackle at you.

[CURLY]

Poor Sam Newman, he is a dinosaur and will never get it. Please retire soon.

Sam was spot on and unless we start following his lead and actually say and act how we wish we will be doomed. He along with so many others know this is bulls*** but unlike Sam the sheep are to afraid to speak up.

[Johnny Member]

As per usual, a genuine issue has been mauled and torn apart by our obsession with publicly expressing black or white opinions on every topic.

The 'public forum' these days, is so much like an internet footy forum it is not funny.


What starts as a genuine issue or question, turns into a debate, which turns into an argument, which turns into a personality clash and a s*** fight over things that have nothing to with the original issue or question being discussed. People jump in to support other posters or have shots at other posters, and along the way whilst this s*** fight is happening, things are said and raised which cause other people to jump in and crack the s***s.

This situation is just another 'sacred cow thread' really.

Genuine issue and valid to be discussed. But what it has escalated into and what Sam Newman was going on about last night are so far from the actual issue it just isn't funny.



So to summarise, Sam wasn't spot on at all. He basically offered an outdated opinion on thinking that equality means if you want to paid like a man, you should be ready to be punched in the face like a man would.
Its no different to the utterly ignorant and naive response of 'well I dont get offended if people call me whitey or Aussie, so why should Aboriginals be offended?' that older white guys give when commenting on racism.

The one thing he was right about, is the fact that people are using this issue to whack their enemies publicly. Ironically, he did exactly the same thing and fanned the flames of an issue that he declared was a non-issue.

[sippo1]

As per usual, a genuine issue has been mauled and torn apart by our obsession with publicly expressing black or white opinions on every topic.

The public forum these days, is so much like an internet footy forum it a not funny.


What starts as a genuine issue or question, turns into a debate, which turns into an argument, which turns into a personality clash and a s*** fight over things that have nothing to with the original issue or question being discussed. People jump in to support other posters or have shots at other posters, and along the way whilst this s*** fight is happening, things are said and raised which cause other people to jump in and crack the s***s.

This situation is just another 'sacred cow thread' really.

Genuine issue and valid to be discussed. But what it has escalated into and what Sam Newman was going on about last night are so far from the actual issue it just isn't funny.



So to summarise, Sam wasn't spot on at all. He basically offered an outdated opinion on thinking that equality means of you want to paid like a man, you should be ready to be punched in the face like a man would.
Its no different to the utterly ignorant and naive response of 'well I dont get offended if people call me whitey or Aussie, so why should Aboriginals be offended?' that older white guys give when commenting on racism.

The one thing he was right about, is that inference that people are using this issue to whack their enemies publicly. Ironically, he did exactly the same thing and fanned the flames of an issue that he declared was a non-issue.

So being a minority like a red head and being called ranga ( offensive term), how does that sit in the equation...is it still "allowed?"

[The Fireman]

a media civil war that has sucked us all in.

[Johnny Member]

As per usual, a genuine issue has been mauled and torn apart by our obsession with publicly expressing black or white opinions on every topic.

The public forum these days, is so much like an internet footy forum it a not funny.


What starts as a genuine issue or question, turns into a debate, which turns into an argument, which turns into a personality clash and a s*** fight over things that have nothing to with the original issue or question being discussed. People jump in to support other posters or have shots at other posters, and along the way whilst this s*** fight is happening, things are said and raised which cause other people to jump in and crack the s***s.

This situation is just another 'sacred cow thread' really.

Genuine issue and valid to be discussed. But what it has escalated into and what Sam Newman was going on about last night are so far from the actual issue it just isn't funny.



So to summarise, Sam wasn't spot on at all. He basically offered an outdated opinion on thinking that equality means of you want to paid like a man, you should be ready to be punched in the face like a man would.
Its no different to the utterly ignorant and naive response of 'well I dont get offended if people call me whitey or Aussie, so why should Aboriginals be offended?' that older white guys give when commenting on racism.

The one thing he was right about, is that inference that people are using this issue to whack their enemies publicly. Ironically, he did exactly the same thing and fanned the flames of an issue that he declared was a non-issue.

So being a minority like a red head and being called ranga ( offensive term), how does that sit in the equation...is it still "allowed?"

Have red heads ever not been classed as humans? Have they ever been kept as slaves? Have they ever not been allowed to vote? No. So that's a different discussion entirely.

Having said that, I've never really been into making fun of people for s*** like that personally. I just don't really get off on making people feel bad.

[Johnny Member]

This is quite different to his comments regarding Adam Goodes, where he basically inferred that Adam Goodes looked like an ape and would be available for mindless stunts.

Fundamentally, at the end of the day I couldn't give a rat's arse about what he said about Caro or indeed if she'd said it about him.

I think this is the point to a degree.

You see it as different to the Adam Goodes comments. You obviously felt the Adam Goodes comments were out of line.

You couldn't give a rat's arse about what he said about Caro and vice versa.


But it's not about what you, or I, or Eddie or Sam Newman think.

Plenty of people didn't think the Adam Goodes thing was out of line. Even though you did.

Plenty think that Eddie was out of line on this one. Even though you don't.



People who don't think the Adam Goodes thing was out of line, are generally people stuck in a time when casual racism and an underlying belief that Aboriginals are second rate humans was acceptable. These people might no longer act out their views, but it still remains.

People who think the Caroline Wilson thing was not out of line, are generally people who haven't bought in to the fact that women are equal to men in terms of their rights and relevance to humanity - and as a result need to be treated differently in certain circumstances. Same as men need to be treated differently in certain circumstances also.


And by the way, the above does not apply strictly to men. Women in a lot of cases do the cause of other women no favours at all with their actions.

[Dis Believer]

People who think the Caroline Wilson thing was not out of line, are generally people who haven't bought in to the fact that women are equal to men in terms of their rights and relevance to humanity - and as a result need to be treated differently in certain circumstances. Same as men need to be treated differently in certain circumstances also.

Can you please explain this - who needs to be treated differently and why? And if everyone is equal, why should some be treated differently?

[Johnny Member]

People who think the Caroline Wilson thing was not out of line, are generally people who haven't bought in to the fact that women are equal to men in terms of their rights and relevance to humanity - and as a result need to be treated differently in certain circumstances. Same as men need to be treated differently in certain circumstances also.

Can you please explain this - who needs to be treated differently and why? And if everyone is equal, why should some be treated differently?

I treat my children differently to how I treat my wife.

They're equal as human beings though.


When I go to a funeral, I behave differently toward people than I do when I go to a wedding.

The people there are all equal though.



It's pretty simple.


All people deserve respect, opportunity and the same level of freedom as the rest of us.

The specific actions relating to those, can of course vary. That's the part that many people don't get.

The actions should not always be the same for everyone. That's what people don't get.

The values behind the actions are what remains the same for everyone.


The way you show respect at a funeral and at a wedding are compleely different actions. But the values behind the actions are the same.

The level of respect and love I show toward my wife and kids are the same - but the way I express them are very different.

The way I express my affection to my mates, is different to how I express my affection to my Mum.


The way I respect men and women is the same - but the ways in which I express it are sometimes, and rightly so, different.

[Dis Believer]

People who think the Caroline Wilson thing was not out of line, are generally people who haven't bought in to the fact that women are equal to men in terms of their rights and relevance to humanity - and as a result need to be treated differently in certain circumstances. Same as men need to be treated differently in certain circumstances also.

Can you please explain this - who needs to be treated differently and why? And if everyone is equal, why should some be treated differently?

I treat my children differently to how I treat my wife.

They're equal as human beings though.


When I go to a funeral, I behave differently toward people than I do when I go to a wedding.

The people there are all equal though.



It's pretty simple.


All people deserve respect, opportunity and the same level of freedom as the rest of us.

The specific actions relating to those, can of course vary. That's the part that many people don't get.

The actions should not always be the same for everyone. That's what people don't get.

The values behind the actions are what remains the same for everyone.


The way you show respect at a funeral and at a wedding are compleely different actions. But the values behind the actions are the same.

The level of respect and love I show toward my wife and kids are the same - but the way I express them are very different.

The way I express my affection to my mates, is different to how I express my affection to my Mum.


The way I respect men and women is the same - but the ways in which I express it are sometimes, and rightly so, different.

Ok thanks.

Does that mean it would have been OK if they had said the same thing about a man?

Is that why "violence towards women" is apparently a whole separate category and apparently much more important than just "violence" (which assumedly applies to everyone who isn't women - men maybe)?

[saynta]

It's pretty simple.


All people deserve respect, opportunity and the same level of freedom as the rest of us.



.

What a load of crap.

You earn respect, you don't just expect it.

I don't respect muslim extremists who wish to harm me, nor do I respect murderers, rapists, car jackers or members of OMG's and that's just for starters.

I respect women as a whole unless there is reason not to.

Whilst I condemn blokey bullying behavior I do not respect Wilson as a journalist. She lost that over her Sammy Fisher articles and the St Kilda schoolgirl saga.

People still being outraged over this sorry affair must not have a life to lead or not much of one anyway.

There are real life dramas and life and death issues all around us. This is not one of them.

[Johnny Member]

Ok thanks.

Does that mean it would have been OK if they had said the same thing about a man?

Is that why "violence towards women" is apparently a whole separate category and apparently much more important than just "violence" (which assumedly applies to everyone who isn't women - men maybe)?

I actually think that is probably the biggest issue really.

When guys like Sam Newman say 'oh, but if women want to be like men then they shouldn't complain when I treat them the same' I think what they're pretty much saying is 'I'm a s*** bloke and pretty much treat everyone poorly, so why should you be any different?'

Being an asshole to a dude, is not good. Being violent toward a man is not good.

So really, you're right. If you're a decent bloke anyway, chances are you don't really need to change your behaviour too much toward women anyway.

But clearly, many do.


Some guys still think that punching someone in the face is a perfectly reasonable way for two men to settle a dispute. Seriously. My dad actually taught me that when I was a kid! It was normal back then.

Now, as a 40yo in today's society, I consider the thought of punching anyone in the face outside of a boxing ring to be almost incomprehensible and utterly illogical.


To answer your question though, not many men would have flinched had the comment been made about a man. I wouldn't have. Same as I wouldn't have flinched if someone called me an ape.

Whereas the fact that it was directed at a woman, means that it has struck a chord with a group in society that only 100 years ago weren't even allowed to vote FFS because men told them they couldn't! And it was still two decades after that they were allowed to run for parliament!



I struggle to understand why people can't see why certain groups outside of the white, straight male are sensitive to certain topics.

[Johnny Member]

It's pretty simple.


All people deserve respect, opportunity and the same level of freedom as the rest of us.



.

What a load of crap.

You earn respect, you don't just expect it.



I don't respect muslim extremists who wish to harm me, nor do I respect murderers, rapists, car jackers or members of OMG's and that's just for starters.

I respect women as a whole unless there is reason not to.

Whilst I condemn blokey bullying behavior I do not respect Wilson as a journalist. She lost that over her Sammy Fisher articles and the St Kilda schoolgirl saga.

People still being outraged over this sorry affair must not have a life to lead or not much of one anyway.

There are real life dramas and life and death issues all around us. This is not one of them.

I don't agree at all.

You get my respect as a living being. Simple. Of course you can lose that respect. But this concept of having to earn respect?? What a bizarre concept.

Do you see a newborn baby and hate it and disrespect it until it earns it? Of course you don't. Do you see someone in the street and expect them to earn your respect before you'll be polite to them or help them?


Seriously. What sort of society operates like that.



As to the second part of your post, this whole issue is now about 5 issues rolled into 1 big pile of outrage.



I personally was never outraged by what they did. Listening to Caroline Wilson, I don't even think she was.


I didn't like it. And I think the whole footy industry is basically a big bunch of outdated bullyboy jocks with massive egos who believe their own hype - so I certainly wasn't surprised by the comments. And I wasn't surpirsed that none of them really think they did anything wrong.

But I do think it was stupid and irresponsible, in this current environment, to have a bunch of blokey blokes effectively sitting around talking about holding a chick under the water whilst they stand around and laugh and taunt her.

Crime of the century? No. Because I don't think they meant it the way it came across.

Do I think anyone should have been sacked over it? No.


But they clearly deserve a kick in the arse and the issue deserves to get some airtime. And I disagree with anyone who doesn't anything wrong in what and how they said what they said.



Clearly though, in my opinion, we should have moved on by now.

[SemperFidelis]

Johnny M, good on you.

[saynta]

It's pretty simple.


All people deserve respect, opportunity and the same level of freedom as the rest of us.



.

What a load of crap.

You earn respect, you don't just expect it.



I don't respect muslim extremists who wish to harm me, nor do I respect murderers, rapists, car jackers or members of OMG's and that's just for starters.

I respect women as a whole unless there is reason not to.

Whilst I condemn blokey bullying behavior I do not respect Wilson as a journalist. She lost that over her Sammy Fisher articles and the St Kilda schoolgirl saga.

People still being outraged over this sorry affair must not have a life to lead or not much of one anyway.

There are real life dramas and life and death issues all around us. This is not one of them.

I don't agree at all.

You get my respect as a living being. Simple. Of course you can lose that respect. But this concept of having to earn respect?? What a bizarre concept.

Do you see a newborn baby and hate it and disrespect it until it earns it? Of course you don't. Do you see someone in the street and expect them to earn your respect before you'll be polite to them or help them?


Seriously. What sort of society operates like that.



As to the second part of your post, this whole issue is now about 5 issues rolled into 1 big pile of outrage.



I personally was never outraged by what they did. Listening to Caroline Wilson, I don't even think she was.


I didn't like it. And I think the whole footy industry is basically a big bunch of outdated bullyboy jocks with massive egos who believe their own hype - so I certainly wasn't surprised by the comments. And I wasn't surpirsed that none of them really think they did anything wrong.

But I do think it was stupid and irresponsible, in this current environment, to have a bunch of blokey blokes effectively sitting around talking about holding a chick under the water whilst they stand around and laugh and taunt her.

Crime of the century? No. Because I don't think they meant it the way it came across.

Do I think anyone should have been sacked over it? No.


But they clearly deserve a kick in the arse and the issue deserves to get some airtime. And I disagree with anyone who doesn't anything wrong in what and how they said what they said.



Clearly though, in my opinion, we should have moved on by now.

Yep, it would be good to all move on. I took issue with your line that all people deserve respect. which is a load of rubbish.

During my working life I met hundreds of people who demanded respect but didn't deserve it. all of them had one thing in common. They demanded respect from others but didn't give it in return.

[Con Gorozidis]

I actually think that is probably the biggest issue really.

When guys like Sam Newman say 'oh, but if women want to be like men then they shouldn't complain when I treat them the same' I think what they're pretty much saying is 'I'm a s*** bloke and pretty much treat everyone poorly, so why should you be any different?'

Being an asshole to a dude, is not good. Being violent toward a man is not good.

So really, you're right. If you're a decent bloke anyway, chances are you don't really need to change your behaviour too much toward women anyway.

But clearly, many do.

Well said. I try to live by a fairly simple edict. Just dont be a dick.

Newman is basically saying - well I am a s*** bloke and a_hole to everyone so if you want to be treated 'equally' then it is ok to be a sh*t bloke and a_hole to you as well. Therefore it not a gender issue because I am a_hole to everyone. This is just a crap argument. It is also simply not true. These flogs never pick on other flogs who are like them. They dont all gang up on 'Jimmy' Brayshaw. They tease him a little but that is all. Usually they suck up and talk each other up about how rich or good looking or powerful they are etc. "Youd never get a tram would you Jimmy. Its limos only'. That kind of 'teasing'. Which is really just upping themselves in public about how well off they are and masking it as a 'tease'.

[saynta]

I actually think that is probably the biggest issue really.

When guys like Sam Newman say 'oh, but if women want to be like men then they shouldn't complain when I treat them the same' I think what they're pretty much saying is 'I'm a s*** bloke and pretty much treat everyone poorly, so why should you be any different?'

Being an asshole to a dude, is not good. Being violent toward a man is not good.

So really, you're right. If you're a decent bloke anyway, chances are you don't really need to change your behaviour too much toward women anyway.

But clearly, many do.

Well said. I try to live by a fairly simple edict. Just dont be a dick.

Newman is basically saying - well I am a s*** bloke and a_hole to everyone so if you want to be treated 'equally' then it is ok to be a sh*t bloke and a_hole to you as well. Therefore it not a gender issue because I am a_hole to everyone. This is just a crap argument. It is also simply not true. These flogs never pick on other flogs who are like them. They dont all gang up on 'Jimmy' Brayshaw. They tease him a little but that is all. Usually they suck up and talk each other up about how rich or good looking or powerful they are etc. "Youd never get a tram would you Jimmy. Its limos only'. That kind of 'teasing'. Which is really just upping themselves in public about how well off they are and masking it as a 'tease'.

I don't think anybody with any common sense doesn't believe that Sam is a s*** bloke.

He is as he demonstrated year after year on street talk.

I just can't believe anyone still watches that show. I stopped about 6 or 7 years ago. Watching s*** like that only brings you down to their level in the end.

And on the respect issue, I have absolutely no repect for that asshole.

[degruch]

These flogs never pick on other flogs who are like them. They dont all gang up on 'Jimmy' Brayshaw.

Bingo! Much the same as Eddie first port of call wasn't Robbo, or any other contemporary blokey bloke jouro who may have said a bad word about his club. "No-one loves Caro, or that crap she wrote about my club, so watch me as I publically sink the boot fellas"...straight onto the perceived weakest link.

[saynta]

These flogs never pick on other flogs who are like them. They dont all gang up on 'Jimmy' Brayshaw.

Bingo! Much the same as Eddie first port of call wasn't Robbo, or any other contemporary blokey bloke jouro who may have said a bad word about his club. "No-one loves Caro, or that crap she wrote about my club, so watch me as I publically sink the boot fellas"...straight onto the perceived weakest link.

I don't think anyone considers Caro "the weakest link". She always hits back hard and also plays the victims card if she thinks there is a story in it.

Goes back to points scoring and getting even imho. Lets not forget it was initially about raising money for a good cause and it got out of hand.

[markp]

Social equality is not natural, it's an artificial construct and an ideal.

Anyone who believes equality means everyone should get the exact same treatment... well that would just about always favour the strongest.

Equality means equal rights and opportunity, which sometimes involves being sensitive to and redressing (historical, physical, socio-ecomic, etc.) imbalances, not blanket equal treatment.

We don't make disabled people use the stairs, we don't believe calling a white man an ape is the same insult as calling a black man one.