Ross Lyon recruiting finally getting smelly?

[SainterK]

[SainterK]

The rest chopped off...so full list

Ray
Dawson
Begley
Peake
Lovett
Smith
Pattison
Polo
Gamble

Then at Freo
Dawson
Pearce
Sylvia
Gumbleton
Bennell

[Trev from the Bush]

A picture says a thousand words.

Just wondering how many players Ro$$y will rest this week. Don't think he has too many to spare.

[SaintPav]

Ray, Zac and Peake were serviable.

[Trev from the Bush]

Ray, Zac and Peake were serviable.

So was my Volkswagen Beetle when I was a kid.

Faz gave great service, welcome back at the club anytime.

Zac thanked us for giving him a second chance by thinking he should have been in our Team of the Century, took Ro$$y's loose change and walked.

Peake played half a season of consistent football but struggled either side of that period.

Ro$$ collects river stones, not gems!

[Enrico_Misso]

How's Sylvia going now?

[BigMart]

Not sure Lyon is a recruiter or list manager? Isn't he a coach

[Con Gorozidis]

Not sure Lyon is a recruiter or list manager? Isn't he a coach

If he is a coach he is 0-9.
If he is a list mgr he is 0-9.

Take your pick.

Same result.

0-9.

0-9 is horrific. When was the last time anyone was 0-9?

The game passed Lyon by about 8 years ago.

He wont recover because he has no idea how.

[BigMart]

He can obviously coach

Lenny Hayes rates him as the best footy coach he's seen

I'll take his word for it

Would you like me to list his injury list?...

Not sure he is even caring now if they win?...

[skeptic]

Not sure Lyon is a recruiter or list manager? Isn't he a coach

I would think that in most cases when it comes to trading in players, the coach would need to at least endorse the decision

[sippo1]

He can obviously coach

Lenny Hayes rates him as the best footy coach he's seen

I'll take his word for it

Would you like me to list his injury list?...

Not sure he is even caring now if they win?...

A great player does not always mean a great "opinion" Carey thought Malthouse should gave been retained at Carlton!!

Who took Ball off in the wet in the last qtr in the 09 GF??.

[Con Gorozidis]

He can obviously coach

Lenny Hayes rates him as the best footy coach he's seen

I'll take his word for it

Would you like me to list his injury list?...

Not sure he is even caring now if they win?...

He only had Tim Watson, Grant Thomas and Scott Watters to compare with.

So yes Lyon was CLEARLY the best coach Lenny ever had in his playing career. I dont think you will get many arguments there Marto.

Does Lenny think Lyon is better than Leon Cameron? That is yet to be answered.

Was Lenny coached by Clarkson, MM or Bomber T? No he wasnt. So he never was comparing Lyon to actual good coaches.

I'd be interested to see what he thinks now after a few months in the Giants box.

[SaintPav]

Ray, Zac and Peake were serviable.

So was my Volkswagen Beetle when I was a kid.

Faz gave great service, welcome back at the club anytime.

Zac thanked us for giving him a second chance by thinking he should have been in our Team of the Century, took Ro$$y's loose change and walked.

Peake played half a season of consistent football but struggled either side of that period.

Ro$$ collects river stones, not gems!

Not true.

Dawson did very well, particularly in the finals series.

Peake also has a couple of good finals in 2010 and a vg 2011.

Granted, he bombed in the 2010 Grand Finals when it counted.

[mad saint guy]

Full list of Lyon's recycling at St Kilda (unless I'm missed some)

Farren Ray
Zac Dawson
Colm Begley
Brett Peake
Andrew Lovett
Jesse Smith
Adam Pattison
Dean Polo
Ryan Gamble
Matthew Clarke
Michael Gardiner
Stephen King
Adam Schneider
Sean Dempster
Charlie Gardiner
James Wall
Jayden Attard
Shane Birss

Re-drafted

Leigh Fisher
Matthew Ferguson
Fraser Gehrig
Andrew McQualter
Jarryd Allen
Robert Eddy

Schneider, Dempster, Ray and M.Gardiner were successes...

[one point]

I think Aaron Fiora may be in that list too

[mad saint guy]

I think Aaron Fiora may be in that list too

Nope, traded at the end of 2004 when Heath Black requested a trade.

[skeptic]

I think Aaron Fiora may be in that list too

Nope, traded at the end of 2004 when Heath Black requested a trade.

Shane Birss was traded in before Lyon was appointed IIRC

[SydneySainter]

It would be naive of anyone to assume coaches play no part in recruitment and list management, but as to how big a hand they play probably depends on the individual and the arrangement they have at the club.

At St. Kilda, I've always thought both GT and Lyon had more involvement than they should have. If you believe the rumours, Lyon also wasn't impressed with the Pelchen appointment.

As for Watters, he seemed to have little to almost no involvement and he's been put on the record saying that he struggled to work with Pelchen and didn't agree with the "clubs" decision to trade McEvoy, Dal and let BJ walk.

[saintsRrising]

Full list of Lyon's recycling at St Kilda (unless I'm missed some)

Farren Ray
Zac Dawson
Colm Begley
Brett Peake
Andrew Lovett
Jesse Smith
Adam Pattison
Dean Polo
Ryan Gamble
Matthew Clarke
Michael Gardiner
Stephen King
Adam Schneider
Sean Dempster
Charlie Gardiner
James Wall
Jayden Attard
Shane Birss

Re-drafted

Leigh Fisher
Matthew Ferguson
Fraser Gehrig
Andrew McQualter
Jarryd Allen
Robert Eddy

Schneider, Dempster, Ray and M.Gardiner were successes...

While it is easy to pander to hysteria and just make a list of such recycled players, what did they actually cost (most were late picks and a number were "free" as were picks after the other clubs had stopped making selections and others were rookie picks)?

Importantly if you are going to critique the pick ups you have to also make them in the context of:
* our then drafting team having had a proven track record of being totally inept, and arguablly being the AFL's worst for many years. Remember howlers like pick 27 for Howard? A record that has only in the last few years been at long last turned around for the better.
* that the brief to Lyon was to take the next step with the lst at to get them into GF's quickly. Under that brief you were not going to do it by only drafting kids (and moreso as we were very poor at drafting kids!)
* what could you have done instead?

How do you define success? It must be very harsh.

- Zac Dawson was pick 13 in Rookie draft and in one finals series was goung by B+F vostes our best finals player.
- King cost us nothing as was pick 100+ Would have thought he was excellent value. Gardiner was equally cheap but not as good on the field. So that was 47 and 12 games for zero.
- Attard Pick 62 in the Rookie draft!!!!!! was looking good value till he had that serious injury when he ruptured his ACL. Bar that he would most likely have gone on to play many more than just the 20 games for the Saints.
- Peake played 43 games in exchange for pick 48.

- Clarke was only ever taken to provide coverage in the ruck for one year. 10 games from a PSD was value.

- Gardiner to St Kilda with a swap of third round draft picks (No. 43 for No. 59). Great value there for 52 games. Pick 59 was then used to get Birss who plated 20 games.
So pick 43 gained both Gardiner and Birss and gained 72 games.

- Ray only cost us swapping pick 31 for 48. We gained Ray who played 123 games and Heyne who played only the 3 games. The Dogs picked Roughead who is at 97 games., but would our recruiters have picked him or another dud?

James Wall? Pick #51 of the 2006 Rookie Draft!

The Lovett trade was the only one that really cost much pick wise. The Schneider/Dempster trade for pick 26 was a steal Dempster 140 and counting and Schneider 130 games.

You may want to look at the StKilda drafting before Lyon arrived and if so may note a long period of ineptitude by our drafting team of players taken in the draft. Not that Lyon would have had sole say in the drafting after he arrived despite the OP, but given that sad and sorry drafting of kids history was it any wonder that GT first and then Lyon turned to making such heavy use of recycled players?

I mean both GT and Lyon must have dreaded what our drafting team were going to through up each year. Who would have wanted to be in there shows.

For the period that Lyon was there if the Saints had not taken any recycled players and had instead only drafted only cleanskins would we have been better off? Based upon our then drafting record of such players teams picks I very much doubt it.


As it sits now StKilda has 11 recycled players on our list and are actively seeking more players from other clubs. So the recycling will continue.

[saintsRrising]

PS: How good was that 2006 Rookie Draft for Stkilda. Despite getting the main draft wrong so often in terms of draft picks in the PSD that year they when very well.

9 Clinton Jones 149 games
25 Luke Van Rheehan 0
39 Robert Eddy 33
51 James Wall 0
58 Jarryn Geary 129 games and counting
62 Jarden Attard 20 (would have been more bar that ACL)

[saintbob]

I watched Zac Dawson the other night, he is still making the same dumb mistakes and I believe his disposal has gotten worse.

Granted he had a fantastic final series for us once, but f*** me for this bloke to have play 150+ games of AFL footy is an absolute joke.

[SaintPav]

It would be naive of anyone to assume coaches play no part in recruitment and list management, but as to how big a hand they play probably depends on the individual and the arrangement they have at the club.

At St. Kilda, I've always thought both GT and Lyon had more involvement than they should have. If you believe the rumours, Lyon also wasn't impressed with the Pelchen appointment.

As for Watters, he seemed to have little to almost no involvement and he's been put on the record saying that he struggled to work with Pelchen and didn't agree with the "clubs" decision to trade McEvoy, Dal and let BJ walk.

.

That's because he still believed we were in contention.

Watters is a liar and it complelty contradicts what he said publicly.

No credibility.

[Moods]

I'm always staggered by these threads.

Does anyone actually believe that we would have made 09-10 GF'S without Lyon? If you do you're completely delusional. Ross has his faults for sure, but I am staggered at the bitterness twds him. Was wonderful for our club - and if not for some bad goal kicking or an unlucky bounce would be enshrined as the biggest legend this club had ever produced.

[Life Long Saint]

I'm always staggered by these threads.

Does anyone actually believe that we would have made 09-10 GF'S without Lyon? If you do you're completely delusional. Ross has his faults for sure, but I am staggered at the bitterness twds him. Was wonderful for our club - and if not for some bad goal kicking or an unlucky bounce would be enshrined as the biggest legend this club had ever produced.

But it didn't pan out, did it?
If we'd have won either of those games then he'd be a legend...As it stands he is now judged by his results and the legacy he has left which is poor.
His all or nothing approach left us with nothing! No succession plan, no youth development and another wooden spoon to add to the record number we already had.

His game plan on 2009 was something to behold...It was a great ride...But what looked like it would be the "Superman Escape" ended up being the "Scenic Railway".

Geelong showed us in 2011 how to do it...The right blend of youth development and senior experience.

The recruiting under his tenure was deplorable...Not only the recycled players but the actual drafting and then subsequent treatment of those players. Cripps was a shame but the WA factor was too great...Tom Lynch, however, was a different story. Smarter development and some faith would have seen him become quite a useful player for us. He more than holds his own in a forward line containing Jenkins, Betts and Walker. Imagine how he'd be now with Bruce, Membrey and McCartin.

Ross Lyon gambled EVERYTHING on a flag in 09/10 and come up short twice then left. Now we are rebuilding the club he burned.
I wish him nothing but every lack of success he could have at Freo.

I really hope we add to their woes on Saturday!

[loris]

I wonder if Lyin will change his terminology, now that he has to develop a team, that's sinking very quickly.

I can recall when he first started at the Saints, his words were 'This team is very coachable - they are open to understanding a new direction in game plan to get to where they want to go'. Hey, Lyin with experienced talent like Roo, Lenny, Kosi, Milne, Harves, Maxie, Gehrig, Fisher, Dal, Ball, Blake etc handed to you on a plate - that was the bleeding obvious!!!!!

Those same words were trotted out - 'These members of the Freo team are very coachable, their readiness to adopt change in game plan is special'. Hey Lyin, given you were gifted with talented experienced players like Sandilands, Pavlich, Johnson,Crowley, McFarlane and also Harvey your predecessor had already blooded young talent in Fyfe, Hill et al - usually such talented, experienced players are 'coachable'.

I wonder if you'll find the new team you'll have to DEVELOP at Freo now will be so 'coachable', methinks it might be more frustrating experience for Ro$$.

The Fremantle Football Club's cheque book will no doubt be taken out of the drawer during the trading period to buy Ro$$ some 'coachable' players, if they can't it might be a few years in the wilderness for Freo & the end of Lyin's credibility as a good tactical coach - if he doesn't have the cattle.