Terrible decisions at the selection table this week

[Bluthy]

That's not patronising Bluthy... i don't think you have much idea of my background.

It's a ballistic game that works at Etihad

Not outside in wet/slippery/windy/heavy conditions

It's why Roos says he needs to think about the MCG team he selects at Etihad

Its also that I don't think we showed WC proper respect. People have talked them down this year because they haven't travelled well. But they are a pretty young grand final team who should improve again this year, at home, desperate to atone after a bad loss to cats, with a blue ribbon midfield, great ruck combo, power forwards and some good dash out of the back, on a slippery day which makes it extra tricky for our young guys. We thought we could do some tricky selection business and snatch a win. But it came a cropper. You're right we should have been more conservative. Everyone makes mistakes including our coaches/selection committee. This was a learning curve for them.

[elvis lives]

It was a mystery at selection and certainly no reason post game to think it was anything but complete fuckinh lunacy. Seriously, we are going to be so good in the midfield we will not need a single key position defender? It's just crazy. To be clear Dempster is not a kpd and should have been playing on LeCras. Gilbert is not a kpd and has been plying midfield all year apart from an admirable job last week.

Honestly, what on earth was to be lost giving lee or Goddard a game this week? We were never going to win, it's another learning experience for our 2017/18 defence. We had probably 4 midfielders who had under 15 possessions, was it Really worth it?

[Con Gorozidis]

What I find a bit off about the selection is that there is an obvious inference that the coach think Roberton is magnitudes better than Lee. Is Roberton better than Lee? Yes probably a fraction better but not 5 x better .

Roberton gets rushed back from injury without having to play VFL like he is Alex Rance and Josh Gibson rolled into one superstar. This is fanciful stuff. Roberton is better at running it out of defence and clearly a better tackler than Lee. No arguments there from me. But Lee is a bit better in the air and a much better kick.

On balance Roberton is probably a marginally better player. But the coach acts like Roberton is multiple times better. It's just a bit off.

Lee has his flaws - we all know that - but so does Roberton. Roberton's kicking and decision making are often poor and he certainly isnt all that quick.
He is a good honest player but no superstar. He is 194 cm but doesnt really play tall and isnt that great at spoiling against taller opponents.

[Con Gorozidis]

Well maybe you can get away with playing a small backline if they are lightning quick and good kicks and can score plenty of sling shot goals. But we had slow midgets with poor kicking skills! It was never going to work out.

[Bluthy]

What I find a bit off about the selection is that there is an obvious inference that the coach think Roberton is magnitudes better than Lee. Is Roberton better than Lee? Yes probably a fraction better but not 5 x better .

Roberton gets rushed back from injury without having to play VFL like he is Alex Rance and Josh Gibson rolled into one superstar. This is fanciful stuff. Roberton is better at running it out of defence and clearly a better tackler than Lee. No arguments there from me. But Lee is a bit better in the air and a much better kick.

On balance Roberton is probably a marginally better player. But the coach acts like Roberton is multiple times better. It's just a bit off.

Lee has his flaws - we all know that - but so does Roberton. Roberton's kicking and decision making is often poor and he certainly isnt all that quick.
He is a good honest player but no superstar.

Rather than replace Fish like for like (Goddard, Lee) I think Richo's thinking was to pull a bit of a tricky and back Gilbo to play Fish-like for this game and use Robbo's run out of the back on the big Subi ground. Of course that plan came undone when Kennedy tore Gilbo a new one before 15 mins into the 1st qtr. That was probably a learning curve for Richo that KPD's are KPD's for a reason - what you lose in flexibility and speed, they make up for in strength, positioning and defensive skill (with some attacking skill too of course - defo need that )

[saintsRrising]

[

Missed this earlier. Great stuff. V well directed analysis, particularly re the second ruck for this game. After all we kept Tom Hickey in the 2's all last year just to make sure he was far and away our best ruck and could take a mark in the forward line and screen off down back. We also have had 4 ruck men on our list for some time, including one of the highest 'leapers' in the game.

Not sure if you have seen Holmes play of late, but a lot of that leap is lacking. I suspect that he is carrying an injury. He is useless round the ground and at reading the play and so I doubt that he could have filled the hole.

Longer has been dreadful this year.

Pierce has looked good at VFL level this year, but is still quite raw. Nic Nat would have slaughtered him.

I am comfortable with playing just Hickey as the ruck, but yes Lee or Goddard should have played.

I have posted for a while that we are playing too many small forwards, and more so when Lonie is out of form as much as he is. The big problem that we have is that we basically have no true midfielders to bring in. The cupboard is bereft. However playing Lee or Goddard does then mean that Gilbert can rotate through the midfield, a role that he goes ok in. Fisher will be back next week, and so that will free up Gilbert to do that.

So that means say giving Bull another chance to shine in place of a small forward..

When Steven and Armo both have off games, it is probably not going to go well for us.

[saintsRrising]

Rather than replace Fish like for like (Goddard, Lee) I think Richo's thinking was to pull a bit of a tricky and back Gilbo to play Fish-like for this game and use Robbo's run out of the back on the big Subi ground. Of course that plan came undone when Kennedy tore Gilbo a new one before 15 mins into the 1st qtr. That was probably a learning curve for Richo that KPD's are KPD's for a reason - what you lose in flexibility and speed, they make up for in strength, positioning and defensive skill (with some attacking skill too of course - defo need that )

Yes in recent years Fisher has gotten better at the body on body work and close checking. Gilbert has never really been a close checker, and more so on any KPFs.

[1965 Saint]

I was at the game today (don't get to see the team live very often) and made a point of watching some of our players off the ball. The one who disappointed me the most was Blake Acres. I've read a lot of positive stuff on here about him by but today he was just hopeless. Appeared clueless about how to find the ball and seemed disinterested. When he did rarely get near it he seemed to fumble almost every time. I think Lonie hasn't got what it takes. Tries hard but is just not skilled enough to overcome his size disadvantage. To round out the trifecta, didn't Webster's junior coach claim he was the best kick he'd ever seen. Yeah right. We have such a long way to go and I hope we make it. Today's effort reminded me of when Fitzroy played their last game in Perth. They were in Brisvegas shortly after. Very depressed tonight.

[Hemi Baxter]

[

Missed this earlier. Great stuff. V well directed analysis, particularly re the second ruck for this game. After all we kept Tom Hickey in the 2's all last year just to make sure he was far and away our best ruck and could take a mark in the forward line and screen off down back. We also have had 4 ruck men on our list for some time, including one of the highest 'leapers' in the game.

Not sure if you have seen Holmes play of late, but a lot of that leap is lacking. I suspect that he is carrying an injury. He is useless round the ground and at reading the play and so I doubt that he could have filled the hole.

Longer has been dreadful this year.

Pierce has looked good at VFL level this year, but is still quite raw. Nic Nat would have slaughtered him.

I am comfortable with playing just Hickey as the ruck, but yes Lee or Goddard should have played.

I have posted for a while that we are playing too many small forwards, and more so when Lonie is out of form as much as he is. The big problem that we have is that we basically have no true midfielders to bring in. The cupboard is bereft. However playing Lee or Goddard does then mean that Gilbert can rotate through the midfield, a role that he goes ok in. Fisher will be back next week, and so that wil free up Gilbert to do that.

So that means say giving Bull another chance to shine in place of a small forward..

When Steven and Armo both have off games, it is probably not going to go well for us.

Yes I get along to the twos most weeks. I'm not sure that Longer isn't exactly the same player that he was in the Seniors last year. Pierce for mine is stiill miles off: that tiny body on tree-trunk legs, he's just getting more of it in the forward line as we have so few other contenders. Maybe Holmes is a bit off and won't make it because he can't kick or read the play but I have to have him in front of the other two at the moment. Hickey will be done by the bye round if he doesn't get some effective relief.

[1965 Saint]

The only thing that I'm hanging my hat on is that that the coaches were using the game to protect the future (ie don't play the ones they expect to come on) and find out if some of the players on the fringe can take the heat. I think they found out today that they can't.

[magnifisaint]

I was at the game today (don't get to see the team live very often) and made a point of watching some of our players off the ball. The one who disappointed me the most was Blake Acres. I've read a lot of positive stuff on here about him by but today he was just hopeless. Appeared clueless about how to find the ball and seemed disinterested. When he did rarely get near it he seemed to fumble almost every time. I think Lonie hasn't got what it takes. Tries hard but is just not skilled enough to overcome his size disadvantage. To round out the trifecta, didn't Webster's junior coach claim he was the best kick he'd ever seen. Yeah right. We have such a long way to go and I hope we make it. Today's effort reminded me of when Fitzroy played their last game in Perth. They were in Brisvegas shortly after. Very depressed tonight.

Just one game!

How shithouse were West Coast against Geelong last week. You cannot judge players on one game. Such a short sighted view.

[1965 Saint]

When you know that it's going to be a blowout 10 seconds after the first bounce I'm not sure what else you can be but depressed. I love the Saints (have done since 1965) but today was really worrying

[magnifisaint]

The guts must be churning for all the players as they are currently flying back. I hope they are totally pissed off by that performance.

[Furphy]

Maybe they knew we had no chance of winning in WA, so they rested players?

[Impatient Sainter]

[quote="BigMart"]Horrible planning

No +1
With an undersized key defender

An offensive set up at centre bounce vs Natinui

Bashed the ball out of 50 against a notorious zone team

Too many small fwds
Gresham, Lonie, Sinclair
1 required

Only Roberton or Gilbert needed as the +1
Goddard or Lee with plus 1 as 3rd up for Kennedy I would never have left him 1 out.

One of the small fwds out
In
Another Ruckman!

Start Hickey fwd Bruce Higher, Roo Defensive Wing.
Hickey ruck the front half.... Longer across HB... Play in front of
When Hickey goes in, Longer rest, Bruce Deep

Reason
Longer to bash his big body into Nat twice a quarter for 8 mins so he can't give his mids an easy ride... Then Hickey take advantage after him, either against inferior ruckman or tired Nat.

Armo Weller Dunstan Rotation. Mid/Fwd/Int
Ross Acres Billings
Steven Sinclair Gresham

That is a much more defensive set up....
Required interstate vs a better team... At least we stay in the game

A shoot out

Who the f*** did Alan think he was kidding[/quote

Post of the week Bigmart - you nailed it. A very poor effort by the coaches and selectors.

[Bluthy]

Players thrown under the bus and selection committee covering their own ass. Wonder how they will take it.

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/s ... owicg.html

Five of those majors were kicked by Josh Kennedy, who was initially stood by Sam Gilbert - only for the veteran to be shifted off the Coleman medallist following his hot start. St Kilda had opted against replacing the sore Sam Fisher with any of tall defensive trio Tom Lee, Hugh Goddard or Luke Delaney, while Jake Carlisle is suspended for the season.

But Cox denied that selection had been the problem. "We were actually quite happy with the match-ups we had. We weren't overly happy with the way that they went about it as a group back there," Cox said.

[Toy Saint]

Whilst I agree with most of the sentiment expressed here, I'm not entirely convinced the alternate selections would have been much better.

Personally I would have taken Lee ahead of Roberton, but I doubt that would have made up the 100 point delta. Goddard would have been good, but I don't think he's ready. Delaney would have been good...in 2012...he's just not ready for AFL standard. Longer would've been fantastic if he was in 2015 form, but alas he aint. Holmes can jump but not much else, and Pierce would have been slaughtered by Nick Nat. may have ruined him for good.

I may have been tempted to play Paddy at he expense of a small guy, but best not destroy his confidence. McKenzie's probably not recovered from the plague, and Murdoch's barely done enough.

Hindsight's a wonderfull thing, and I reckon the coach may have made a couple of alternate selections if he had the chance, but to be honest I think we just had an off day. Sure a few tweaks at the selection table and we may have 'only' lost by 10 goals.

[st.byron]

Players thrown under the bus and selection committee covering their own ass. Wonder how they will take it.

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/s ... owicg.html

Five of those majors were kicked by Josh Kennedy, who was initially stood by Sam Gilbert - only for the veteran to be shifted off the Coleman medallist following his hot start. St Kilda had opted against replacing the sore Sam Fisher with any of tall defensive trio Tom Lee, Hugh Goddard or Luke Delaney, while Jake Carlisle is suspended for the season.

But Cox denied that selection had been the problem. "We were actually quite happy with the match-ups we had. We weren't overly happy with the way that they went about it as a group back there," Cox said.

Not on the same page in the footy dept. Cox saying they're out to prove it was an abberation. Richo saying you can't just pretend it was an abberation. Who is Cox BTW? I mean what's his background?

[MC Gusto]

Marto nailed it for mine. Hickey was always going to need support. Big selection mistake right there. You could throw a blanket over our defenders in the twos - none would have made much of a difference but 1 tall in for 1 small would've balanced the team better.

Very worried about the bombers this week. I reckon the team is mentality smashed and physically tiring already. Going to be a long week and and even longer season

[Bluthy]

Not on the same page in the footy dept. Cox saying they're out to prove it was an abberation. Richo saying you can't just pretend it was an abberation. Who is Cox BTW? I mean what's his background?

He's from SA Cricket. And he had no background in football at all before becoming our new Football Manager! WTF. This guy is all about fitness over football knowledge. Me very worried now. Pelchen was controversial but there were few who wouldn't say he had an incredibly strong understanding of football and football teams structures. Cox: "Hey lets play Robbo to replace Fish because he can run and run and I value fitness" Wouldn't surprise me if Cox had some previous connection with Richo and/or Port.

Cricket casualty Jamie Cox joins St Kilda as football manager
December 16, 2014

UPDATE: New St Kilda football manager Jamie Cox believes he is well-equipped for the challenge ahead of developing the young Saints list.

Cox's return to sporting administration was complete on Tuesday when he was unveiled by St Kilda seven months after controversially being sacked by the South Australian Cricket Association.

A former Australian cricket selector too, Cox is confident his skill set is tailor-made for St Kilda's stage of development.

"For mine it's just a wonderful challenge at the right time and, for mine, it was also very important to come to a club which was at the stage this club's at," Cox said.

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"Building a young team I think is where my skill set can be best utilised, so to come and have the opportunity to mould a young group is very exciting - I'm really honoured to be here."

St Kilda, which finished on the bottom of the ladder in 2014, has the fifth-youngest playing group in the AFL behind GWS, Gold Coast, the Bulldogs and Brisbane.

Cox enjoyed an 18-year first-class career in Australia and England, scoring 18,614 runs at the top of the order for Tasmania and Somerset.

After retiring he combined a high-level administrative role at the Australian Institute of Sport with a five-year stint on the Australian selection panel. Mid-way through that stint, the 45-year-old left the AIS to take up the high-performance review at SA.

Cox's six-year stint in that role abruptly ended in May after an investigation by Cricket Australia into alleged contracting breaches by Adelaide Strikers, of which Cox was also in charge.

CA's then newly formed integrity unit was probing suspicions BBL teams were not abiding by the official embargo in negotiating with players, even those already at their team, between February 7 and May 19.

After CA presented SA with its draft finding, which showed Cox had discussed extending the contract of Jono Dean and signing Brad Hodge and Kieron Pollard, the SACA board sacked Cox. SACA's rationale was that Cox "failed to comply with the association's internal procedures and expectations in respect of his failure to disclose player recruitment negotiations carried out by him".

SACA was fined $50,000 for the breach ($20,000 was suspended for three years) and Cox was barred from working with the Strikers - but only the Strikers - for this imminent BBL season.

In the aftermath of the sacking, the Australian Cricketers' Association called for an amnesty, believing the actions Cox had been sacked for were rife throughout the competition.

"There's a culture that's built up in the BBL that it's OK to play outside these contracting rules," then ACA chief executive Paul Marsh told ESPNcricinfo.

"Teams have been doing it since the first year and nothing's been done about it, and everyone knows it. You only have to look at day one of the contracting period, half the contracts get announced. How did that happen if they haven't already been in discussions and reached at least a verbal agreement before the day of the contracting period starting?

"Everyone knows it's been going on. So what needs to happen, I believe, is an amnesty period so we come out and say 'Everyone bring forward your dirty laundry and say what happened in the first three years'. We put it all on the table and start with a clean slate. Anything that's not disclosed then, teams are liable to be sanctioned moving forward, but from this point the culture needs to shift to where everyone does play by the rules."

Marsh's suspicions of widespread recontracting breaches were seemingly confirmed in September when three more teams were fined: Hobart ($20,000) for two breaches and one breach each for Brisbane ($10,000) and Sydney Sixers ($10,000). No team administrators were punished as a result of that subsequent investigation.

Cox, recruited by ABC Radio as an expert commentator for the first Test, has publicly said little about his sacking, which is widely considered in cricket circles to have been harsh. In September he told Adelaide's The Advertiser he was keen to "be able to move on".

"I had to come to the realisation that I was a young man, had to find something else to do. There was no point wallowing. I had to dust myself down, there was reality to deal with," Cox said. "I talked to people and realised this does happen. The support of family, people has been amazing. I am trying to get my life back in order. I hope I never have to think about this again."

On Tuesday, Cox said it was good to get a fresh start after his dramas with the SACA.

"For mine, my next opportunity was really important to me and that's why I'm so grateful to have this one," he said.

Cox, who has lived in Adelaide for the past six and a half years, will start work with the Saints on January 12.

While Cox has never worked in football, he is said to enjoy the sport even more than cricket.

The vacancy at St Kilda arose as a result of a restructure which involved the departure of head of football Chris Pelchen in October, after which a "comprehensive and exhaustive search" for a head of football performance began, according to St Kilda CEO Matt Finnis.

Finnis was thrilled with Cox's appointment and was confident he would successfully develop the club's "high performance culture"

[/quote]

[ROLS-LEE]

Yes should have had 2 ruckmen.
Bruce should have gone down back on Kennedy (only option)
Lee on darling.
Paddy forward.
Gilbert in the centre.
Dempster on Le Cras

[saintsRrising]

I think people are in fantasy land if they truly believe that Longer, Pierce or an injured Holmes would have affected Nic Nat's game much. Longer to take intercepting marks down back? Since when does Longer mark? Lee has been the best defensive mark at Sandy this year.
Mind you 75% of our team was so woeful that playing another ruck would have made little difference even if they played well..

The combination of dominating mids and strong marking forwards is what destroyed us most combined with a St Kilda team that just seemed unable to run and get the ball out of defense. Even the normally close checking Geary gave his opponent in LeCras a wide berth for much of the game.


Our Mids were in the main absolutely spanked and mid-wise there is not much that is not already in our firsts. Priddis was showing how the won the Brownlow ina midfielder masterclass. Playing another tall defender to free up Gilbert for bullocking work in the packs, and run, is the main selection that was wrong. Playing too many small forwads did not help, and in particular the out of form Lonie.

Probably good in hindsight that Paddy did not play as being FF to that team on the weekend was a short straw indeed.

The Saints this year seem to swing wildly between the two extremes of playing very poorly or playing very well with not much middle ground.

Headless chooks with poor disposal skill vs manic players with good disposal that centre the ball beautifally. I have seen both this year and I have absolutely no idea which will turn up in any given week.

Biggest question for mine is why our players swing so wildly.

[spert]

What we should be worried about was the total lack of pressure put on the WCE players when they had the ball- Priddis and co probably couldn't believe their luck when they were standing unopposed and had all the time in the world to collect the loose ball. What the hell did Richo say to his players pre match... must have sang them a lullaby to go to sleep.

Geelong didn't let Priddis and the other mids off the hook the week before, and they couldn't get a clear run at the ball. It would seem our tactics were just to run around play as far away from your opponent as possible.

[BigMart]

It's not about 'defensive marks'

It's about a big 201cm 105kg body smashing into an equally big man at centre bounce.... Instead of Hickey getting monstered

NicNat gives them an arm chair ride at stoppage... That had to be nullified to a degree

I don't care what form he's in, it doesn't take form to crack in.

I believe Natinui was pretty much the most important man on the ground.... He dominated stoppage

[saintsRrising]

It's not about 'defensive marks'

It's about a big 201cm 105kg body smashing into an equally big man at centre bounce.... Instead of Hickey getting monstered

NicNat gives them an arm chair ride at stoppage... That had to be nullified to a degree

I don't care what form he's in, it doesn't take form to crack in.

I believe Natinui was pretty much the most important man on the ground.... He dominated stoppage

So you really really think Pierce would have been able to smash into NicNat???

Holmes certainly does not know about that part of ruckwork...plus this year seems to have lost that amazing leap.

Longer has been out of form and even in form has not done well against NicNat.

No, Hickey was our best option in the ruck. Hickey also landed 7 tackles, the highest by any StKilda player.


Spert hit nail on head above. Our mids were dismal in that first quarter. Just allowed Priddis and Co free reign in that first quarter. Not just to win the ball, but to then be allowed to waltz forward to kick as they pleased to leading forwards. Our backs then just spectatored to compound the advantage that WC had. Even the normally very solid defensive game of Geary was totally absent as LeCras was left by himself for large chunks of the game. Pierce getting his face re-arranged by NicNats knees would not have altered that by one iota.