A Graders

[saynta]

I know champion data says we don't have any.

I just want to register my disagreement.

I reckon we have three.

Joey, Roo and Jack Steven, soon to be joined by anther Jack.

[Toy Saint]

Doesnt bother me if Champion data reckon we dont have A graders, we had a lot of A graders in 2009 but we also had a lot of D graders.

I'd be delighted if we had a squad full of B graders

[bigred]

Dunno....

But the way Seb is going.....

[borderbarry]

Jack Billings cant be far away,

And when Nat Freeman has a run!!!

[Sobraz]

Steven is in the top 20 players in the comp, let alone A grade.

Could likely be top dozen by seasons end.

[BigMart]

Steven in the top 20... Really

I'm going to list mids only ...

Scott Thompson, Rory Sloan, Tom Rockliff, Dayne Beams, Patrick Cripps, Marc Murphy, Scott Pendlebury, Adam Treloar, David Zaharakis, Brendon Goddard, Nat Fyfe, Lachie Neale, Patrick Dangerfield, Joel Selwood, Sam Mitchell, Jordan Lewis, Jack Zeibell, Ben Cunnington, Nathan Jones, Bernie Vince, Travis Boak, Ollie Wines, Dustin Martin, Trent Cotchin, David Armitage, Luke Parker, Josh Kennedy, Matt Priddis, Luke Shuey, Jackson McRae, Marcus Bontempelli

There are others also
Plus
Forwards and defenders

Top 20
Not so sure

[Sobraz]

Steven in the top 20... Really

I'm going to list mids only ...

Scott Thompson, Rory Sloan, Tom Rockliff, Dayne Beams, Patrick Cripps, Marc Murphy, Scott Pendlebury, Adam Treloar, David Zaharakis, Brendon Goddard, Nat Fyfe, Lachie Neale, Patrick Dangerfield, Joel Selwood, Sam Mitchell, Jordan Lewis, Jack Zeibell, Ben Cunnington, Nathan Jones, Bernie Vince, Travis Boak, Ollie Wines, Dustin Martin, Trent Cotchin, David Armitage, Luke Parker, Josh Kennedy, Matt Priddis, Luke Shuey, Jackson McRae, Marcus Bontempelli

There are others also
Plus
Forwards and defenders

Top 20
Not so sure

I'm assuming your not suggesting all those mids you listed are ahead of Steven. You just listed a bunch of good mids to compare him to?

Fair enough - Of those you listed, I'd only have Fyfe, Danger, Mitchell (getting on and will hit the wall in the next year or two) and obviously Ablett (who's not listed but I'm assuming is a given) as clearly ahead of Steven, and Kennedy and Priddis as his equal.

Cripps, Parker and the Bont certainly have the potential to be superior players, but are still young and inconsistent. Notwithstanding I'd happily take any of those three above any other player in the comp in red white and black.

The rest Steven, as it stands right now, is better than. And he has scope for improvement as our young team improves.

His work rate, ball winning and attack on the contest is from the very very top shelf. His finishing has improved this year (I've always felt it's been an overrated flaw as his means of winning possession often made his disposal dodgy, not an actual skill fault), and the way he drags the team along with him is inspiring.

[supersaints]

I think the time to judge Jack will be at years end. He's shown that (barring injury he is going to be more than a genuine a grader ... I would sooner have him in the side rather than some of those listed. Let's revisit in two seasons and see who is right

[CQ SAINT]

Surely there arent many A graders who haven't played 100 games. In fact it should be a prerequisite. Lets be rational and worry about this in 60 games time and the see how we do.

[Bluthy]

Surely there arent many A graders who haven't played 100 games. In fact it should be a prerequisite. Lets be rational and worry about this in 60 games time and the see how we do.

Well said. There is this ruminating obsession here with wanting "elite" and "a-graders" right here, right now instead of being patient with our internal development. Young players are like watching a kettle boil - it doesn't seem to be getting anywhere and then suddenly its whistling and you have a delicious cup of tea to savour. The rebuild theory is that the young players take time to become consistent a-graders which lets you load up on more high picks before it starts to come together and you rise up the ladder.

[The OtherThommo]

Steven in the top 20... Really

I'm going to list mids only ...

Scott Thompson, Rory Sloan, Tom Rockliff, Dayne Beams, Patrick Cripps, Marc Murphy, Scott Pendlebury, Adam Treloar, David Zaharakis, Brendon Goddard, Nat Fyfe, Lachie Neale, Patrick Dangerfield, Joel Selwood, Sam Mitchell, Jordan Lewis, Jack Zeibell, Ben Cunnington, Nathan Jones, Bernie Vince, Travis Boak, Ollie Wines, Dustin Martin, Trent Cotchin, David Armitage, Luke Parker, Josh Kennedy, Matt Priddis, Luke Shuey, Jackson McRae, Marcus Bontempelli

There are others also
Plus
Forwards and defenders

Top 20
Not so sure

I'm assuming your not suggesting all those mids you listed are ahead of Steven. You just listed a bunch of good mids to compare him to?

Fair enough - Of those you listed, I'd only have Fyfe, Danger, Mitchell (getting on and will hit the wall in the next year or two) and obviously Ablett (who's not listed but I'm assuming is a given) as clearly ahead of Steven, and Kennedy and Priddis as his equal.

Cripps, Parker and the Bont certainly have the potential to be superior players, but are still young and inconsistent. Notwithstanding I'd happily take any of those three above any other player in the comp in red white and black.

The rest Steven, as it stands right now, is better than. And he has scope for improvement as our young team improves.

His work rate, ball winning and attack on the contest is from the very very top shelf. His finishing has improved this year (I've always felt it's been an overrated flaw as his means of winning possession often made his disposal dodgy, not an actual skill fault), and the way he drags the team along with him is inspiring.

I'm very much on the same page, s.

On his disposal and conversion, it's worth noting he had a very high conversion rate when playing mostly as a forward (I recall at one stage he had a run where he kicked 13 or 14 straight).

His field kicking consistency is improving, but I put some of that down to the fact he is now able to cope better with the hard running he does. He not only covers a lot of ground, but he does it very quickly - ergo, when younger and less hardened, sometimes he was kicking when he was out of gas.

And, I reckon we're going to see him (and us!) benefit from the rotation cap, along with the deepening of the midfield, because he'll spend more time forward. I reckon they'll adjust him to the cap by having him spend a liitle less time on ball, less time sitting down, and more time forward. And, as Satdee showed, when he is forward he is very dangerous. He can get it in contests, and get out, and he can find space in dangerous areas. The coast to coast goal was a good example - Jack 1 in a sparsely populated forward half would be a nightmare for oppositions.

[saynta]

Surely there arent many A graders who haven't played 100 games. In fact it should be a prerequisite. Lets be rational and worry about this in 60 games time and the see how we do.

He's played 115 games and won two best and fairests

He's just turned 26 and is in great shape.

He's an a grader imho.

[terry smith rules]

Steven in the top 20... Really

I'm going to list mids only ...

Scott Thompson, Rory Sloan, Tom Rockliff, Dayne Beams, Patrick Cripps, Marc Murphy, Scott Pendlebury, Adam Treloar, David Zaharakis, Brendon Goddard, Nat Fyfe, Lachie Neale, Patrick Dangerfield, Joel Selwood, Sam Mitchell, Jordan Lewis, Jack Zeibell, Ben Cunnington, Nathan Jones, Bernie Vince, Travis Boak, Ollie Wines, Dustin Martin, Trent Cotchin, David Armitage, Luke Parker, Josh Kennedy, Matt Priddis, Luke Shuey, Jackson McRae, Marcus Bontempelli

There are others also
Plus
Forwards and defenders

Top 20
Not so sure

I'm assuming your not suggesting all those mids you listed are ahead of Steven. You just listed a bunch of good mids to compare him to?

Fair enough - Of those you listed, I'd only have Fyfe, Danger, Mitchell (getting on and will hit the wall in the next year or two) and obviously Ablett (who's not listed but I'm assuming is a given) as clearly ahead of Steven, and Kennedy and Priddis as his equal.

Cripps, Parker and the Bont certainly have the potential to be superior players, but are still young and inconsistent. Notwithstanding I'd happily take any of those three above any other player in the comp in red white and black.

The rest Steven, as it stands right now, is better than. And he has scope for improvement as our young team improves.

His work rate, ball winning and attack on the contest is from the very very top shelf. His finishing has improved this year (I've always felt it's been an overrated flaw as his means of winning possession often made his disposal dodgy, not an actual skill fault), and the way he drags the team along with him is inspiring.

Um just for the record Luke Parker 100 games (1 b &f) is already a gun, there is absolutely nothing inconsistent with his form

Robbie Gray ? Hanneberry, Kieran Jack Callan Ward -I'll take those 4 as a starting midfield any day and they are not even on your lists

[matrix]

Lol murphy

Good one

[BigMart]

Marc Murphy
Is far from a dud... I watched him R1 and off no prep he was pretty much bog
At one stage in 2011 he was considered in the elite of the Comp and led the media awards for most of the year until injured
He was an All Australian that year
Best and fairest 2011
Runner up (to Judd) in 07, 08, 09
Third in 2010
Runner up again in 14, 15
That is 7 top 3 B&F finishes

He is a club captain
He tore us a new arse in NZ last year

To say he's not a gun is silly and blinkered

[BigMart]

Luke Parker is in the conversation for the best 10 players in the AFL!!!! He currently leads the AFL coaches award and is a complete package
To not know/think that is astonishing
He was a B&F in a premiership team... And his injury last year halted the swans
He's better than A Grade... I'd suggest Elite

Forgot GWS as I do
Shiel and Ward... Yes, are guns

Gray... I only listed 2 from each team... He plays forward and mid... An absolute star
Best 10 in the comp IMO

[Myron Gaines]

Marc Murphy is an above average midfielder for one of the worst teams in the comp. Nothing more. Steven is far more damaging. Breaks the lines, gains yardage & hits the scoreboard.

[BigMart]

Priddis... The equal of Steven

Come on... Priddis is league leader. Few better, he been WCs best player for years and is severely underated... He is a machine

Steven is a terrific ball winner
But has clear weaknesses. He has won two B&Fs in a team that had a combined 9 wins 35 losses

[The OtherThommo]

Priddis... The equal of Steven

Come on... Priddis is league leader. Few better, he been WCs best player for years and is severely underated... He is a machine

Steven is a terrific ball winner
But has clear weaknesses. He has won two B&Fs in a team that had a combined 9 wins 35 losses

That can be argued numerous ways.

- very different players
- Priddis is a supplier, Steven is more rounded (e.g. Priddis doesn't break lines, doesn't score, is a worse disposer by foot).
- to win 2 B & F's as a midfielder amid a substandard midfield is a significant achievement. If he was a half back flanker in a lower side winning B & F's, then "meh" might be warranted. But, Jack 1 gets his own ball and carries it our way more than any other player.
- Priddis's finals' performances have raised doubts about his big game calibre.

I still believe Jack's osteitis pubis cost us the '10 flag, as young as he was. When we beat Geelong in late June of '10, it was Jack's 4th game:

"St Kilda youngster Jack Steven booted three goals in the third term to have a huge impact in just the fourth game of his career."

http://rsn.net.au/saints-hold-cats-goal ... cond-half/

Those 3 goals were our only 3 of that quarter. It was a Friday night in June, and it was a slog. But, even at that stage of his career, you could see Jack was an impact player, and he could get it in heat.

In the GF we needed more impact players, and less of Lyon's role players like Robert Eddy.

From elsewhere about OP, in mid 2011, and this is pretty accurate:

"Jack Steven had it last year, and the club just wouldn't be rushed with him, even with the 'ross won't play the kids' external pressure.

His TOG has slowly increased this year, and he is reaping the rewards of obviously feeling good."

I do believe we have long underappreciated just how good Jack is. Very few in the competition can get it and get out like Jack.

[BigMart]

Ask any neutral supporter

Jack Steven > Matt Priddis

You'll get laughed at

[gone fission]

Ask any neutral supporter

Jack Steven > Matt Priddis

You'll get laughed at

I doubt it, most people were shocked when Priddis won a brownlow… he kicks like clint jones.

Jack Steven is far better than Priddis was at the same age.

Priddis obviously great at extracting and tackling. Brilliant at drawing free kicks through ducking, could be the best.

[The OtherThommo]

Ask any neutral supporter

Jack Steven > Matt Priddis

You'll get laughed at

There you go again, Marto, arguing constructs not in evidence. I did NOT say Jack > Priddis, I suggested there were arguments to be made that suggested a) the comparison is largely meaningless, b) Priddis has significant limitations and c) Jack has strengths that I believe are not fully recognised.

Tell ya what, you send someone my way who wants to laugh at my suggestions encompassed in a), b) and c) above, and I will eviscerate their misconstructed logic.

I do it a lot, very, very rarely get done, and get the odd laugh out of it (but only ever in response, and once the deconstruction is complete).