Is Dempster becoming a liability?

[dragit]

Dempster is good in the air so would be fine if he had three speedsters around him who he could dish off to - but we dont - so we have to question the entire defensive structure which he is a part of. He doesn't get off the hook because he is good at one aspect of the game. His game is fairly limited and if we dont have the guys around him to compensate - then we have a problem and he is part of the problem. Our backline worries even more than our midfield at the moment. Yes we defend pretty well but then what? We are terrible at getting it out of our back half and everyone knows it and clubs are going to exploit it.

Basically agree… Our backline is stodgy, slow, poorly skilled… but I still think Dempster & Fisher are essential right now to try and cope with key forwards.

Goddard is 19 & doesn't sound ready for KPD

Lee is 25 and is a forward, who has been asked to play back and richo refuses to play him, would love to see him play but hate to see him on Cloke, maybe on a 3rd tall.

Run and creativity needs to come form guys not playing key defence and who are under the age of 40… The problem is Geary, Gilbert, Savage, Roberton, Webster just aren't that good (right now)

Dempster won't be dropped and nor should he, he's comfortably the best option we have for the best forwards in the comp.

[felix]

City west had a warning for exactly the same thing re Paddy . This is no different it's inflammatory and trolling. Mods ?

[BigMart]

He is slow in thought and from hand to foot with the footy now... But as a defender and drop off defender he is elite

Still in our best 5 players

Poor call IMO

[skeptic]

City west had a warning for exactly the same thing re Paddy . This is no different it's inflammatory and trolling. Mods ?

Umh it's clearly not. God help you if you can't see the difference.

[Bluthy]

He is slow in thought and from hand to foot with the footy now... But as a defender and drop off defender he is elite

Still in our best 5 players

Poor call IMO

Elite? He's not Elite. He's a utility player who transitioned into a defender in the last couple of years because we didn't have anyone else. Webster had to cover Stringer further up the field because 1) Sean can run with him 2) Dempster is only comfortable being that last line defender.

I feel like this happened with Schneider last year - a guy we delisted and then rookied and suddenly everyone is saying he is pure silk and should keep him for another 2 years. I think its fear of the future that makes people look at some of these older guys with rose-coloured glasses and ignoring their deficiencies. Dempster is a good solid player but he lacks run and good kicking and makes our defence pretty flat. He's been a great warrior but he's not elite. He's never been elite.

[The OtherThommo]

He is slow in thought and from hand to foot with the footy now... But as a defender and drop off defender he is elite

Still in our best 5 players

Poor call IMO

Elite? He's not Elite. He's a utility player who transitioned into a defender in the last couple of years because we didn't have anyone else. Webster had to cover Stringer further up the field because 1) Sean can run with him 2) Dempster is only comfortable being that last line defender.

I feel like this happened with Schneider last year - a guy we delisted and then rookied and suddenly everyone is saying he is pure silk and should keep him for another 2 years. I think its fear of the future that makes people look at some of these older guys with rose-coloured glasses and ignoring their deficiencies. Dempster is a good solid player but he lacks run and good kicking and makes our defence pretty flat. He's been a great warrior but he's not elite. He's never been elite.

3rd in last year's B & F suggests he's amongst our elite, Bluthy.

From the AFL website coming into this season, in an article about all clubs' over 30's:

"Sean Dempster: Should still be considered among the best third-tall defenders in the AFL given his ability to intercept mark (No.3 in the AFL in 2015)."

Note - "3rd tall defender". I'd also suggest no player can take a lot of intercept marks if he is a) confined to the last line of defence, and b) concerns himself only with his opponent. His decision making on when to peel off and go to the contest, to help out, is reflected in finishing last year with the 3rd highest number of intercept marks.

It is also reflected in this other mention on the AFL website, this time in an article entitled "Team first gems - your club's selfless warriors" (August 19th, 2015)

"One-percenters: Sean Dempster (98), AFL rank (equal-13th): The ever-reliable defender flies under the radar but he's loved at the Saints, where he's unmatched for unglamorous team acts like spoils, smothers and shepherds."

You do not get figures like that without getting involved.

He may have fallen off a cliff at the end of '15, but I seriously doubt that, particularly given the way he prepares.

We're not playing a 2nd key defender. He got a heavy knock to the head against Port, and we played rubbish football against the Doggies, and in such a way (the turnovers- and he wasn't responsible for anywhere near as many as some others) that blokes down back were scrambling to cover the ball that kept rebounding at real speed.

And, Schneider's decline bears no relationship to Dempster - he didn't fall off a cliff, he declined as his body wore out (and he was never an elite physical specimen, anyway, but Dempster is).

As they say in the form guides, but not for the same reason - "Look elsewhere".

[dragit]

Schneider everyone is saying he is pure silk and should keep him for another 2 years.

You're clearly losing the plot again as no-one said this last year, even those defending his place in the side thought it should definitely be his last year. Find us a post that says 2 more years…

Drop Dempster and we are dead set tanking.

3rd in our B&F last 2 years, comfortably our best defender and you want to drop him after round 2… it's actually laughable, but carry on it is entertaining

[samuraisaint]

Lee and Delaney both need to be given a go. But the reason our defenders have been so exposed since 2013 is our lack of experienced midfield depth. This is why when sides get on top of us during periods/quarters of a match, they are able to score so freely - there is no pressure at all on the ball carriers bringing the ball in to the forward fifty and having the time to be able to deliver the ball to a good option. In direct counterpoint to us at the moment.

[Bluthy]

3rd in last year's B & F suggests he's amongst our elite, Bluthy.

From the AFL website coming into this season, in an article about all clubs' over 30's:

"Sean Dempster: Should still be considered among the best third-tall defenders in the AFL given his ability to intercept mark (No.3 in the AFL in 2015)."

Note - "3rd tall defender". I'd also suggest no player can take a lot of intercept marks if he is a) confined to the last line of defence, and b) concerns himself only with his opponent. His decision making on when to peel off and go to the contest, to help out, is reflected in finishing last year with the 3rd highest number of intercept marks.

It is also reflected in this other mention on the AFL website, this time in an article entitled "Team first gems - your club's selfless warriors" (August 19th, 2015)

"One-percenters: Sean Dempster (98), AFL rank (equal-13th): The ever-reliable defender flies under the radar but he's loved at the Saints, where he's unmatched for unglamorous team acts like spoils, smothers and shepherds."

You do not get figures like that without getting involved.

He may have fallen off a cliff at the end of '15, but I seriously doubt that, particularly given the way he prepares.

We're not playing a 2nd key defender. He got a heavy knock to the head against Port, and we played rubbish football against the Doggies, and in such a way (the turnovers- and he wasn't responsible for anywhere near as many as some others) that blokes down back were scrambling to cover the ball that kept rebounding at real speed.

And, Schneider's decline bears no relationship to Dempster - he didn't fall off a cliff, he declined as his body wore out (and he was never an elite physical specimen, anyway, but Dempster is).

As they say in the form guides, but not for the same reason - "Look elsewhere".

Do you know if the b&f is player voted TOT? Anyone who's part of sporting clubs knows they have an element of a popularity contest to them - the players who are leaders and vocal and directing traffic are going to be held in high esteem by younger players - hence why Geary does so well as well. And that's good because it is about rewarding selfless team players and leaders. But its not a one-to-one mapping of how good players are.

Dempster did have a great marking year last year but they are often on the last line of defense which is valuable of course but not threatening. We need more threat from our backline. We need to closely monitor him thorough out this year. He is not an untouchable. I don't believe we go from 50 pt losses to 100 pt losses without him. We need to make the cold hard rational analysis to see what he doesn't bring as much as what he does bring.

Playing four older defenders - Fisher, Dempster, Geary and Gilbo (even though he has been playing further up) - worries me. I feel thats tipped a bit too far on the conservative side. I don't have a horse in this race. Dempster brings some good stuff to the table, and he is deficient in other stuff. Lets see how he goes this week after a couple of warm up games. Just saying the ball the comes in a lot isn't a defence. The best teams almost love the ball coming in to the backline because they love to rebound it wit the oppo out of position. If you can't get the ball out cleanly and slice through a zone then yes the ball is going to come back with interest. The best form of defence is a good offence as they say.

[kosifantutti]

Do you know if the b&f is player voted TOT? Anyone who's part of sporting clubs knows they have an element of a popularity contest to them - the players who are leaders and vocal and directing traffic are going to be held in high esteem by younger players - hence why Geary does so well as well. And that's good because it is about rewarding selfless team players and leaders. But its not a one-to-one mapping of how good players are.

I've never heard of a B&F being judged by the players. It's judged by the coaches.

[Bluthy]

Do you know if the b&f is player voted TOT? Anyone who's part of sporting clubs knows they have an element of a popularity contest to them - the players who are leaders and vocal and directing traffic are going to be held in high esteem by younger players - hence why Geary does so well as well. And that's good because it is about rewarding selfless team players and leaders. But its not a one-to-one mapping of how good players are.

I've never heard of a B&F being judged by the players. It's judged by the coaches.

Well ammo sport it is but the coaches voting on it make as much sense to the results - they are going to reward team-orientated, selfless leaders doing the one-percenters - that is something they want to foster and make stand out as valuable (which it is of course). I stand by that it is not a direct reflection of how good players are and you can't dismiss any criticism of a player with "he finished x in the b&f". I think he would have played every game last year which gives you an advantage straight off the bat.

[dragit]

I don't have a horse in this race.

Clearly

We need defenders who can hurt the oppo the other way.

you can't have players who are basically taggers like Geary and Dempster.

Dempster doesn't have the legs to run hard or the ball use to work it out by foot.

We need to move into the next generation of football where the backline is an attacking option.

We are living in the past. Not guts, no glory.

he has liabilities (slow, poor kicking, can't attack)

when you add it up it up he is tipping into the loss category

To me he is drifting into the Dawson category

Personally I think we start to rest Dempster

I feel we're too far tipped on the conservative side.

apparently he is now an irreplaceable AA defender that if we left out would make us lose by 100+ pts .

The Dempster glorification is getting out of hand.

A lot of his marks (he only had 5 last week and 4 the week before) are uncontested taken going back on the last line of defense. Handy, but not threatening, attacking intercepts marks at CHB that Goddard is capable of.

doesn't want to kick anymore because he struggles to hit targets.

If you want the team to show dare and risk, you need to but your balls on the line at the selection table

Elite? He's not Elite. He's a utility player

makes our defence pretty flat

he's not elite. He's never been elite.

Probably my favourite bit is that he doesn't take attacking contested marks like Goddard, damn that stat of Dempster being third in the comp. Also, AA is generally considered a good indicator of being "elite"... > considered to be in the best handful of players in the whole competition for a certain position. 3rd in the B&F two years running is reasonable guide of a players performance within the team.

More please!!!

[magnifisaint]

Here's a good article on him
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/t ... 1e1dd252f7

[kosifantutti]

I've never put great faith in the B&F votes.

Kosi in 2009 got 11 Brownlow votes, kicked 48 goals, and played 23 games. Didn't make the top 10
Milne in 2008 kicked 60 goals. Didn't make the top 10.
Gehrig in 2005 kicked 78 goals. He tied Cain Ackland for 8th. He finished 6th when he scored the ton.

But it's all we've got to go on.

[Bluthy]

Well Dragit it's a questioning topic on Dempster so your carefully collated list isn't exactly a shock or evidence of a vendetta (you left out when I mention his strengths - and some statements aren't even necessarily about Sean - nice cherry picking). I will take back the Dawson comparison, that's ridiculous. But the rest I stand by. I feel like people are over-rating him as a gold-plated untouchable. He's been a good defender in a bottom, rebuilding team where his experience and leadership has been valuable. He's 32 another preseason and maybe the 90 rotations is impacting him. And we need to have one and half eyes on our future. We'll see. I'll be on Dempster watch this Sat ready to pursue my relentless anti-Dempster vendetta

[stonecold]

no he's not, like the other experienced guys, he's playing he's role on and off the field. Carn't just play a team of inexperienced players when your working towards longterm success.

[The OtherThommo]

Do you know if the b&f is player voted TOT? Anyone who's part of sporting clubs knows they have an element of a popularity contest to them - the players who are leaders and vocal and directing traffic are going to be held in high esteem by younger players - hence why Geary does so well as well. And that's good because it is about rewarding selfless team players and leaders. But its not a one-to-one mapping of how good players are.

I've never heard of a B&F being judged by the players. It's judged by the coaches.

From saints.com.au on last year's B & F - http://www.saints.com.au/news/2015-09-1 ... rker-award

"For the fourth time in the last five seasons, Dempster finished in third place, while Leigh Montagna finished fourth for the second-straight season. Reliable defender Jarryn Geary rounded out the top five.

Dempster’s best game was in round 18 against Melbourne, when two out of the five coaches awarded him the maximum four votes.

Best and Fairest Voting Criteria

Five coaches (senior coach plus 4x assistant coaches) vote in each match
Not all players need to be given a vote
A poor result may see only 3 - 4 players receive votes, a strong result might see 15-16 players
Coaches to vote confidentially, ie. not confer with each other
Each player can receive votes as follows:
1 vote: played role effectively (but should not be used as an encouragement reward)

2 votes: among the best for St Kilda in this game

3 votes: one, two or very occasionally, three players who are deemed the very best on ground

4 votes: an exceptionally outstanding game, very rarely given (say 10+ goals, or 45+ possessions) "

Final Vote Count:

1. Jack Steven 175

2. David Armitage 159

3. Sean Dempster 149"

I like the fact the coaches don't confer, and not every player gets a vote(s) for just running on to the ground.

[The OtherThommo]

I've never put great faith in the B&F votes.

Kosi in 2009 got 11 Brownlow votes, kicked 48 goals, and played 23 games. Didn't make the top 10
Milne in 2008 kicked 60 goals. Didn't make the top 10.
Gehrig in 2005 kicked 78 goals. He tied Cain Ackland for 8th. He finished 6th when he scored the ton.

But it's all we've got to go on.

Judging by those examples, kosi', I reckon the B & F voting criteria might be different (and better) now, to what it was 6+ years ago.

[The OtherThommo]

Well Dragit it's a questioning topic on Dempster so your carefully collated list isn't exactly a shock or evidence of a vendetta (you left out when I mention his strengths - and some statements aren't even necessarily about Sean - nice cherry picking). I will take back the Dawson comparison, that's ridiculous. But the rest I stand by. I feel like people are over-rating him as a gold-plated untouchable. He's been a good defender in a bottom, rebuilding team where his experience and leadership has been valuable. He's 32 another preseason and maybe the 90 rotations is impacting him. And we need to have one and half eyes on our future. We'll see. I'll be on Dempster watch this Sat ready to pursue my relentless anti-Dempster vendetta

For a bloke who 'has been a good defender in a bottom, rebuilding team', he's played in an awful lot of finals, including Grand Finals.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sean_Dempster

His season by season figures are towards the bottom. Take out '09, where he was coming back from the late '08 knee injury, and that is a damn fine, and consistent, playing record, in 2 sides have been up, on the rise, on the slide or down the arse end. Team performances have fluctuated, but his 'adn't.

The 'good defender in a bottom side' is reflected in his figures post '10, when the slide began. But, if you consider his best ball winning numbers are in that period, I'd also suggest it shows how he has adapted his game to having less quality around him (e.g. accepted greater responsibility for those around him) which, again, is reflected in the 4 B & F top 3 finishes, in that period.

I also have massive doubts the 90 rotations is affecting him more than just about any other player in the side. Apart from the fact he is universally lauded for his preparation and maintenance, he was hardly ever rotated when there was no ceiling on rotations - just can't see it, Bluthy - the blokes who are effected by the ceiling are those who were rotated the most when there was no, or higher, cap. A bloke like Jack Steven is far more effected by the lower cap on rotations. I guarantee you the coaches spend way more time worrying about others adapting to the cap, than they do about Dempster.

[Wombat15]

Dempster has been an amazing servant to the club theres no denying that but his first 2 games have been very underwhelming. Although i dont think its entirely his fault. To be honest, you have 2 half backs in roberton and savage who's disposal at times is questionable and puts us under the pump so the ball gets fired back in pretty quickly. the other thing that ive noticed is the lack of another Key back playing in the side. We need Goddard, Delaney or Lee to play back there. regardless of ability they would take either the best or 2nd best forward which takes pressure off Fisher who is looking a tad off the pace this season and thus allowing Demptster to take that 3rd tall and allowing him to back into that lock down role that he performs so well.

[BigMart]

Some of the thread comments are clearly a joke or absolutely ignorant

Sean is the VERY least of our concerns... He's a gun defender

B&F finishes are the BEST indicator of performance
Voted by the coaches who understand players roles and judge whether they deliver upon them.
Kosi played 5 good games in 2005 and didn't deserve to finish top 10
Who kicks goals are not an indicator of performance, it's how they were manufactured. Did Minley create 60 goals? Was he the beneficiary of good set up play? Did he defend?
I mean really
Fraser Gehrig was RU best and fairest in 2001
In 2004 he kicked 100 goals and finished 5th

[samuraisaint]

Well, we lose a game by 10 goals and the next week we make one change - our youngest player goes out for another young player who has form in the reserves...
I think it really is time that Lee and Delaney come back in - Delaney could stand Cloke and we could play Lee on Jessie White. I wonder how many of the current side playing tomorrow played in the Grand Final sides of 2010 compared to Collingwood - the side that won the replay by over 9 goals?
One of the reasons our experienced players poll so well in B&Fs is because they are getting a game, while players like Lee and Delaney are not.
Dempster and Fisher are worthy of their place in the side at the moment, while Gilbo and Geary are clearly struggling skills wise.
And if Roo is injured I would like to see him getting a rest - maybe not this week as it's an important game marketing-wise for the club, but next week, if he is under a cloud.

[Bluthy]

Well Dragit it's a questioning topic on Dempster so your carefully collated list isn't exactly a shock or evidence of a vendetta (you left out when I mention his strengths - and some statements aren't even necessarily about Sean - nice cherry picking). I will take back the Dawson comparison, that's ridiculous. But the rest I stand by. I feel like people are over-rating him as a gold-plated untouchable. He's been a good defender in a bottom, rebuilding team where his experience and leadership has been valuable. He's 32 another preseason and maybe the 90 rotations is impacting him. And we need to have one and half eyes on our future. We'll see. I'll be on Dempster watch this Sat ready to pursue my relentless anti-Dempster vendetta

For a bloke who 'has been a good defender in a bottom, rebuilding team', he's played in an awful lot of finals, including Grand Finals.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sean_Dempster

His season by season figures are towards the bottom. Take out '09, where he was coming back from the late '08 knee injury, and that is a damn fine, and consistent, playing record, in 2 sides have been up, on the rise, on the slide or down the arse end. Team performances have fluctuated, but his 'adn't.

The 'good defender in a bottom side' is reflected in his figures post '10, when the slide began. But, if you consider his best ball winning numbers are in that period, I'd also suggest it shows how he has adapted his game to having less quality around him (e.g. accepted greater responsibility for those around him) which, again, is reflected in the 4 B & F top 3 finishes, in that period.

I also have massive doubts the 90 rotations is affecting him more than just about any other player in the side. Apart from the fact he is universally lauded for his preparation and maintenance, he was hardly ever rotated when there was no ceiling on rotations - just can't see it, Bluthy - the blokes who are effected by the ceiling are those who were rotated the most when there was no, or higher, cap. A bloke like Jack Steven is far more effected by the lower cap on rotations. I guarantee you the coaches spend way more time worrying about others adapting to the cap, than they do about Dempster.

Does he do much attacking TOT? He was part of Lyon's uber-defensive system. And now with Geary he basically does shut-down roles and provides some backline cover. Teams don't care about one player being shut down in Modern Footy. Dogs loved having both Geary and Dempster in our team last week. You want to shut Stringer and Delhaus down - go for it. We've got plenty of others who can attack and kick goals and it means you won't rebound against us and we can pin you in.

With modern footy you can't keep both gloves up to your face to reign off blows. You have to throw punches back. And that has to come from ALL players. Geary and Dempster are too specialised being negators with no attacking side. It's becoming a liability as we saw last week. I will be watching very carefully this week to see how well we rebound on the big MCG as Pies youth will run, run, run.

[Bluthy]

Well, we lose a game by 10 goals and the next week we make one change - our youngest player goes out for another young player who has form in the reserves...
I think it really is time that Lee and Delaney come back in - Delaney could stand Cloke and we could play Lee on Jessie White. I wonder how many of the current side playing tomorrow played in the Grand Final sides of 2010 compared to Collingwood - the side that won the replay by over 9 goals?
One of the reasons our experienced players poll so well in B&Fs is because they are getting a game, while players like Lee and Delaney are not.
Dempster and Fisher are worthy of their place in the side at the moment, while Gilbo and Geary are clearly struggling skills wise.
And if Roo is injured I would like to see him getting a rest - maybe not this week as it's an important game marketing-wise for the club, but next week, if he is under a cloud.

Good point about the grand final teams SS. The regeneration of our backline has been poor - a fair chunk of that blame comes out of the Lyon and Watters era's but we do have some guys we could at least try and get some experience now - you need that to develop depth players if nothing else - what if Carlisle or Goddard go down in a prelim - you want someone to be able to step up with some AFL games under them. I think Richo is too tipped over into conservatism. If he wants his team to play with courage and dare then you need to pick the players who can actually attack - not a team of old-legged negators.

[samuraisaint]

Thanks Bluthy - and that's exactly right. Lee and Delaney are competent footballers without being stars and they have a place on our list moving forward for added depth - I think. But we are never going to know if they keep being overlooked for the tried and tested all the time, even when they are probably being played when form suggests that maybe they shouldn't be. Just my 2 cents.