It's only the pre-season BUT......

[samuraisaint]

I think that the players were very rusty. They hadn't played a game for three weeks. Three weeks and one day - and that is after not playing since round 22 last year. I agree the decision making at times was poor but a lot of the mistakes were basically miss kicks.
I don't agree with all the hate for Hickey though - he did a good job against Gawn, and then as a presenting forward option. I thought Ross was disappointing. Our basic skills under pressure skills are poor at the moment. Having said all of that I thought it was a good sign that we never threw in the towel and kept going until the final siren.
But I yesterday highlights why we recruited Carlisle in the first place - this issue we have had since 2013 of clubs just opening us up when they start breaking the lines and kicking multiple goals in a burst is unacceptable and should have been fixed by now. Unfortunately it probably has, but Carlisle being ineligible to play means that we are going to have to cop it sweet for another year and take the pain while Goddard develops and Carlisle serves out his suspension.
Remember that a lot of our problems since 2012 are of the club's doing; topping up for five years under Lyon without developing our young players coming through, and then 2 more years of sub standard recruting in the WA inc era under Watters drafting the WAFL forwards and Spencer White, while allowing Jamie Cripps and Hutchings go to West Coast. I just really hope that Lee can play chb this year, because he will be worth his weight in gold if he can. If he can't and doesn't then that is another failure we will have to live with.
As soon as Carlisle was rubbed out for the season I foresaw a bottom 4 or 5 finish in 2016 and after yesterday, I am even more sure of it. We can still win between 5-7 matches, but the club must do a lot better in the trading and draft period at the end of the year.
I don't know why posters are suggesting we have gone small at the recruiting table. Don't forget that we copped a bit of flak for actually drafting a big forward, McCartin and a big key defender, Goddard, who are definitely going to be players, but we need to give them years to develop. I can accept that; I have no problems with that at all.

But that fact remains we are going to be very skinny on the field this year and wouldn't want to cop many injuries.

[samuraisaint]

Why did we play a cancer patient today - crazy
Why are we recruiting midgets
The cross jumper looks s*** and is cursed - we haven't won a game in it
Our recruiting lately has been atrocious - none of McCartin, Dmac, White, Rice, Coughlan, NOK, Templeton, Sinclair or Carlisle were in our firsts today
Billings can only play a quarter of good footy (but what a quarter!)
There are serious questions around the ability and decision making of Ross, Newnes, Weller, Savage, Webster, Wright and Hickey
Why do we do such risky inboard kicks so often - is this some sort of weird suck-them-in tactic
If Tom Lee played today he would have shut down Hogan and probably kicked 5 sausage rolls
Acres is a big guy and needs to get his tank up
ARmo is the new Luke Ball with head-bandages
Wright is genuinely working on getting killed out there
Richo has no tactics - would Watters come back if he was allowed to say juggernaut whenever he wanted
We should have recruited Petracca
WE should have recruited Hogan - somehow we surely could have traded up our pick that year - short sighted thinking
We never should have recruited Carlisle
Demons supporters thought that was a grand final - they are so starved for success bless them
Was our policy to develop ruckmen who have only one skill - ah you can do it all can you, sorry we'll pass on you. Oh you can tap but can't actually get the footy around the ground. Perfect - welcome aboard
Losing a practice game is a flat out disaster that has completely derailed our season
Its encouraging that our new brilliant draftee who supposedly we would have taken at pick 5 drops a sitter mark
We are officially the new Melbourne - a basket case
Its a brilliant idea to charge $20 to a see a meaningless game and get a tiny crowd. Sure you could charge $5 or even free, get a healthy crowd who enjoy footy with their kids and grow the game but why do that
Did we recruit Membrey purely to meet our Sydney-to-St Kilda trade agreement requirements - I'm struggling to work out why he's out there otherwise
When we were short a key forward with Paddy missing, it was a great idea to make sure Rooey didn't play forward and risk him scoring those pesky goals he is renown for
CAn't our players do a course on "decision making and developing skills " even just a basic course
We need to do a rebuild - give up on 2020 and aim for 2030
AND THE UMPIRES WERE s***

Whew - I feel better

I know that this post was written with your tongue placed firmly in your cheek Bluthy, but I just wanted to raise a couple of points generally
we have recruited four man mountains - Carlisle, Goddard, Longer and McCartin. Add Hickey to that list, so that's five. We lost to Melbourne yesterday in a practice match after we hadn't played for over three weeks. We were always going to get done. We are a bottom 4-5 side. Players take years to develop. I have found it curious that posters on here seem to think that we could and should play finals before 2019 - no way was that going to happen. Our recruiting has certainly been poor and many of our better younger players are gone from the Lyon era. Add the WAFL forwards and Spencer White decisions and this poor recruting era extends to 8 years. The club need to stick fat now, endure 2016, for it is certainly going to be a bottom five ladder finishing position - 5-7 wins at most - and start targeting the FA and youth we are going to pick up with our first draft pick at the end of the year.

[8856brother]

I think we should just fold.

[samuraisaint]

No matter how badly we may fare at different stages of this season, based on pre-season and exposed form, Carlton, Essendon, Brisbane and the Gold Coast Suns are going to take all the heat off us in season 2016.

[longtimesaint]

What needs to be remembered is that most of our senior players had not played a practice match at all.
The North match was mainly kids and the few senior players only played a half.
We were very unlikely to beat Melbourne yesterday as they are much more match conditioning having played strong senior teams for three weeks.
I am confident that we will perform well enough to be mid table this season and I think we can beat Melbourne in round 6.
Essendon, Carlton, Brisbane and Gold Coast will be lower than us and maybe Melbourne.

[bigred]

looked frightfully rusty.

Seemed to suffer from last year's issue of turning the ball over far, far too often.

Really hard to judge that forward set up too when the entries were so hap hazard.

[jonesy]

I'm not overly optimistic about how some of our players/list are progressing,but no point judging things on the NAB.

On face value at the moment though,a few that I had high hopes for aren't tracking like I thought. Lots of mid rankers to worse.

I think it looks worse also for the fact that our fancied recruits from November are all out for varied reasons apart from Gresham, so it gives the appearance we have added nothing over the preseason. In reality in a perfect world we throw in Freeman,Rice and Carlisle we'd be a bit more buoyant. There is no doubt we are a long long way behind the dogs but ,and it appears Melbourne could of gone past us if the talk of Petracca is right.

Anyhow,we'll see over the coming months. Big one's for likes of Acres,Dunstan, Webster,Eli,Ross,Wright,Freeman,and to a lesser extent the second year McCartin and Dmac. I think if you're treading water in your third year then most of the time those players don't make it. Our overwhelming strength will be our midget brigade inside 50 with Billings,Lonie,Sinclair and Gresham, all other area's look pretty weak at the moment but

[Bluthy]

I know that this post was written with your tongue placed firmly in your cheek Bluthy, but I just wanted to raise a couple of points generally
we have recruited four man mountains - Carlisle, Goddard, Longer and McCartin. Add Hickey to that list, so that's five. We lost to Melbourne yesterday in a practice match after we hadn't played for over three weeks. We were always going to get done. We are a bottom 4-5 side. Players take years to develop. I have found it curious that posters on here seem to think that we could and should play finals before 2019 - no way was that going to happen. Our recruiting has certainly been poor and many of our better younger players are gone from the Lyon era. Add the WAFL forwards and Spencer White decisions and this poor recruting era extends to 8 years. The club need to stick fat now, endure 2016, for it is certainly going to be a bottom five ladder finishing position - 5-7 wins at most - and start targeting the FA and youth we are going to pick up with our first draft pick at the end of the year.

I agree about our spine. And these guys we got into to fill that mid-age 50+ game bracket we were completely missing - Savage, Weller, Membrey, Delaney etc - have questions about their composure and decision making (Savage is the most promising of these as he's got all the tools if he can learn to lower his eyes). There is a reason their clubs let them go. We have to be patient while that young generation who started coming through under the pelchen model of recruiting good kicking, creativity and x-factor mature into 75 game players who then have the body and experience to play 4 quarters of really good AFL footy and work together as a unit. As we are doing so much (necessary) chopping and changing of the team its hard for them to really gel for a couple more years until our regular top 24 starts to crystalise.

But what encourages from yesterday is you can see the explosive nature of what we are building. Melbourne had that classic Roos grinding style. They played all over us with great pressure and ball possession and should have been way more ahead at half time. But we have these explosive players - Steven, Lonie, Billings, Bruce, Gresham - that can turn a game in just minutes. That is really exciting. The great teams like Geelong and Hawks had that explosive nature. Team are grinding away on top of them, a few goals up, thinking they've got their measure and then BAM BAM BAM and the oppo are on the back foot wondering whats happened and almost panicking.

Goals are a wonderful psychological as well as scoreboard tool - Lyon forgets that. I thought we showed some of that against Melbourne. Soak up the pressure and then hit them on the rebound hard. If we can get guys like Freeman, White, Rice, Dmac, Carlisle all coming online, I think we are going to develop a fantastically exciting and dangerous explosive side. Probably need to use our top pick for a really classy midfielder and suddenly the pieces are starting to come together. But this year is another development/experimental year as we continue to work our how our backline, forward line and rucks are going to look in the future.

[Sainternist]

I knew would have a long year..no surprises for me....all we can hope for is massive improvement from the youngens...Our best talent, the oldies will be gone soon.

Have to agree with you. Wins this year are going to be like gold. Can't see us winning more than we did last year. Our backline will be under constant pressure and our midfield is our biggest weakness. The real worry for our future is how these youngsters will deal with the transition period of when the veterans retire. Just have to get them as much experience as possible and hope they can start to come of age.

[CQ SAINT]

The ground was our best target. Received about 30 handballs and 40 kicks. Covered a lot of space too and was always running past looking to provide run. Jarryn Geary and the ground are developing an impressive partnership and the ground seems to be on the end of most of Jarryn's disposals.

[prwilkinson]

I'm not overly optimistic about how some of our players/list are progressing,but no point judging things on the NAB.

On face value at the moment though,a few that I had high hopes for aren't tracking like I thought. Lots of mid rankers to worse.

I think it looks worse also for the fact that our fancied recruits from November are all out for varied reasons apart from Gresham, so it gives the appearance we have added nothing over the preseason. In reality in a perfect world we throw in Freeman,Rice and Carlisle we'd be a bit more buoyant. There is no doubt we are a long long way behind the dogs but ,and it appears Melbourne could of gone past us if the talk of Petracca is right.

Anyhow,we'll see over the coming months. Big one's for likes of Acres,Dunstan, Webster,Eli,Ross,Wright,Freeman,and to a lesser extent the second year McCartin and Dmac. I think if you're treading water in your third year then most of the time those players don't make it. Our overwhelming strength will be our midget brigade inside 50 with Billings,Lonie,Sinclair and Gresham, all other area's look pretty weak at the moment but

Yeah lots good points. Spot on about treading water in your 3rd year. AFL is brutal and the window to prove yourself is so short.

[Bunk_Moreland]

We have a lot of passengers on our list. Some of those are a product of the Pelican era of multiple players for picks but I think it's a defining year for the following players;

Tom Lee
Tom Curren
Darren Minchington
Nathan Wright
Luke Delaney
Lewis Pearce
Eli Templeton

Out of those only Wright played yesterday. What is the point of your post

[spert]

Looked like the same bunch of headless chickens running around as the last two seasons- seems to be Richo's only obvious game plan. At least we saw a few promisong individual efforts. Do we need to spend more money and get an actual skills coach?

[Linton Lodger]

I can't believe all the moaning! Get serious people it was a practice match, utterly meaningless. We could have played Riewoldt forward and won the game, but who cares. We hadn't played for 3 weeks, so why be surprised at kicks and handballs missing targets.

A lot of positives too, I reckon Steven & Armitage have gone up another level. Bruce, Billings, Newnes and Dunstan look in ripping form. Gresham is going to be a player. Then we've got the best key defender in the land coming in next year plus plenty of room in the salary cap for a gun midfielder. Yet all the prophets of doom are out because of a scratch match (our first in three weeks). Get serious!

If you were dreaming of finals this year, why and who gives a s***. Are we a Premiership contender? No. So what's the point of playing finals. Development still comes first and win/loss is still irrelevent.

[The Fireman]

I can't believe all the moaning! Get serious people it was a practice match, utterly meaningless. We could have played Riewoldt forward and won the game, but who cares. We hadn't played for 3 weeks, so why be surprised at kicks and handballs missing targets.

A lot of positives too, I reckon Steven & Armitage have gone up another level. Bruce, Billings, Newnes and Dunstan look in ripping form. Gresham is going to be a player. Then we've got the best key defender in the land coming in next year plus plenty of room in the salary cap for a gun midfielder. Yet all the prophets of doom are out because of a scratch match (our first in three weeks). Get serious!

If you were dreaming of finals this year, why and who gives a s***. Are we a Premiership contender? No. So what's the point of playing finals. Development still comes first and win/loss is still irrelevent.

the moaning as you put it is simply pointing out how poor we are. It was a practice match where all players were trying there best and showing what they have, not meaningless and no one was saying anything about the loss...it is about how far we need to develop and that game showed we have a long way to go. Most of us realise we won't be in the finals for awhile and have taken the rose coloured glasses off to seriously evaluate our position and I am serious.

[Linton Lodger]

Stan had no plan B in 97.

Difficult to implement Plan B in a Grand Final, when your Ruck division is out injured and two of your best players had severe family matters weighing on them.

[Con Gorozidis]

A nab challenge is meaningless for established AFL players but 3/4 of our list are not established AFL players. Of course they were trying

How many on our list can honestly say - oh its only nab cup - ill flick the switch when the real stuff starts? Probably only 5-10 blokes.

The rest are trying their guts out to establish a career.

[To the top]

Given full availability we could put the following side on the park in 2016:-

Fisher Goddard Dempster
Roberton Carlisle Gilbert
Riewoldt Armitage Montagna
Billings Mc Cartin Acres
Freeman Bruce Lonie
Hickey Dunstan Steven
Longer Ross Newnes Gresham

Then list the remainder.

Those we drafted in the most recent Draft you would hope show something - plus the likes of Mc Kenzie develop.

I do not understand the hype on the likes of Templeton, Sinclair, Minchington et al.

But the gap between the side shown above and the rest is extreme - and that is THE problem.

Not enough depth.

It is OK punting on a Bruce from another side (because of his size and he is an athlete) or a Hickey or a Longer (because they are ruckmen and post Gardiner and King the cupboard was bare) but picking up mid sized players who can not get a game at their former clubs is fraught - so we have Weller, Savage and Membrey clogging the List (Lyon, anyone?).

We do not fill the holes with the likes of Weller, Savage and Membrey - or Delaney (because we only had Fisher).

Some, like Lee (because he has height and has had injuries holding him back) we have to see if they can play (a monumental flaw under Lyon, costing us premierships) so play them.

Make a decision.

Keep or move on.

That is footy.

They laud Geary, who is a SANFL Second's player at best.

Move on.

Ross is included above 1) because of the possessions he had but he is static with the ball and does not do damage and 2) Who else is there from those not named?

So we rely on Carlisle and Freeman delivering - but in the meantime a couple are getting games when they are not at AFL standard.

And that is a cancer to side achievement.

Holmes is a romantic novel, but we are just far, far too easily punished by the opposition ruckmen because he can not put hands on the ball except for hit-outs.

So the opposition ruckmen run around saying "kick it to me" - and we are playing a player short, which we can not afford.

We are still in the faunicating over Lockett mentality - and that is why there has been no flag since 1966 - and none prior!

That said, if we could put the side named above on the park in 2016 we would win our share - but that would gloss over the core problem of depth.

[borderbarry]

Shortly a decision will have to be made as to which Rookie to promote for the season, as a result of the Carlisle suspension. In two NAB matches we have seen Holmes twice and Coughlan and Saunders We have not seen O'Kearney or Payne at all. So on that, it looks to me that Holmesy will get the nod.

[MC Gusto]

Agree with the comments earlier re some of our youngsters really needing to show something. Especially the 3rd / 4th year players

Acres and dunstan must go to next level.

Webster and roberton need to continue on their improvement

Not sure what to be said of Ross? Surely make or break?

These are the types of blokes where our improvement has to come from.

Billings we know baring injury should be special and the likes of d-mac, paddy, Goddard etc need a couple more in the system before they can be properly judged.

[Bluthy]

Given full availability we could put the following side on the park in 2016:-

Fisher Goddard Dempster
Roberton Carlisle Gilbert
Riewoldt Armitage Montagna
Billings Mc Cartin Acres
Freeman Bruce Lonie
Hickey Dunstan Steven
Longer Ross Newnes Gresham

Then list the remainder.

Those we drafted in the most recent Draft you would hope show something - plus the likes of Mc Kenzie develop.

I do not understand the hype on the likes of Templeton, Sinclair, Minchington et al.

But the gap between the side shown above and the rest is extreme - and that is THE problem.

Not enough depth.

It is OK punting on a Bruce from another side (because of his size and he is an athlete) or a Hickey or a Longer (because they are ruckmen and post Gardiner and King the cupboard was bare) but picking up mid sized players who can not get a game at their former clubs is fraught - so we have Weller, Savage and Membrey clogging the List (Lyon, anyone?).

We do not fill the holes with the likes of Weller, Savage and Membrey - or Delaney (because we only had Fisher).

Some, like Lee (because he has height and has had injuries holding him back) we have to see if they can play (a monumental flaw under Lyon, costing us premierships) so play them.

Make a decision.

Keep or move on.

That is footy.

They laud Geary, who is a SANFL Second's player at best.

Move on.

Ross is included above 1) because of the possessions he had but he is static with the ball and does not do damage and 2) Who else is there from those not named?

So we rely on Carlisle and Freeman delivering - but in the meantime a couple are getting games when they are not at AFL standard.

And that is a cancer to side achievement.

Holmes is a romantic novel, but we are just far, far too easily punished by the opposition ruckmen because he can not put hands on the ball except for hit-outs.

So the opposition ruckmen run around saying "kick it to me" - and we are playing a player short, which we can not afford.

We are still in the faunicating over Lockett mentality - and that is why there has been no flag since 1966 - and none prior!

That said, if we could put the side named above on the park in 2016 we would win our share - but that would gloss over the core problem of depth.

Thats pretty disrespectful about Geary. If you don't think he should be in the team or upto AFL footy fine, but no need throw such stupid cheap insults towards a guy polling at the top of our b&F. Savage, Weller, Membrey and Delaney were brought in as big bodied players with a good chunk of AFL games under their belt when we had almost no one in the 50-150 game mark. Gilbo and Fish were always injured. Armo and Steven had a ridiculous load when still developing themselves. That season we could have copped 200+ thrashings and the club would have been under intense pressure that could have seen sponsers and members be non-existent. We dodged a bullet with some clever free trades to pad out our mid-range and protect the kids so we can develop them the way we want rather than throw them to the wolves and get bashed around. All those guys have been fantastic trainers driving club standards and 2 of them are holding their spot in the team.

It takes time to get the good-kicking, talented next generation to come through. You can't change it over night. You only get so many picks and rookies (who are outside shots anyway). Dmac, Acres, White, Rice, McCartin, Goddard, Sinclair, Lonie even Ross and Dunstan need more time to get to that 75 game mark to become really solid, consistent players (some may not make it). Its not a straight line path in terms of their development and you have to play the percentages - Ross is showing enough to keep going with him. He's getting plenty of the footy. He may hit a spot where it really comes together for him. But you can't just make sweeping write-offs the way you are doing and wait for "Carlisle and Freeman" as rolled-gold talent. Its doesn't work that way.

Every club is bringing in talented kids and on the look out for rolled-gold talent. I think we've done incredibly well from where we were genuinely about to fall off a cliff with our player list and the media were ready to hammer the "fallen giant basket case" line they love. I'm amazed how well we did last year - I think we over-achieved. I'm happy with something similar with wins and ladder position. Melbourne have so much talent on their list its scary. They should be 3 years ahead of us at least and yet we did everything wrong, played an experimental team and weren't far off it because of our explosive talent - Billings, Bruce, Lonie, Steven - with plenty more to come in. We are doing ok. More than ok in fact. Full steam ahead Richo!

[matrix]

So im guessing no one told gilbert at the start of the year that he has to stop rubbing his hands and boots in butter then?

Does my f****** head in
No right and 50% of what comes off the left goes tits up because he gets himself into trouble
Has a blinder of a game and you think to yourself , nere we go, thats the gilbs i remember, and th3n he turns it over again from poor footwork
Beggers belief

Slow, we are sloooooooow

[Beno88]

We looked like a bloody team that had played just two games for the season! The skill level looked like it was early March and some of the senior players performed like they hadn't played a game in about six months!!! It's just not good enough. Our decision making had me thinking we mustn't have played a game for about three weeks!!! We should be performing better given we're equal with the likes of Hawthorn, West Coast and Fremantle on the ladder at the moment.

[Con Gorozidis]

We looked like a bloody team that had played just two games for the season! The skill level looked like it was early March and some of the senior players performed like they hadn't played a game in about six months!!! It's just not good enough. Our decision making had me thinking we mustn't have played a game for about three weeks!!! We should be performing better given we're equal with the likes of Hawthorn, West Coast and Fremantle on the ladder at the moment.

So it was early March for us but June for the opposition?

Objective view: It was early March for both sides and we were trying. We had a full side picked.

Do you think we were holding back and waiting to flick the switch when the real stuff starts?

Where was this switch in 2013 (16th), 2014 (18th) and 2015 (14th)?

Or have we found a new secret magical switch we are waiting to unleash when the time is right?

Handy Hint: There is no magic switch. What you see is what you get.

[The Fireman]

We looked like a bloody team that had played just two games for the season! The skill level looked like it was early March and some of the senior players performed like they hadn't played a game in about six months!!! It's just not good enough. Our decision making had me thinking we mustn't have played a game for about three weeks!!! We should be performing better given we're equal with the likes of Hawthorn, West Coast and Fremantle on the ladder at the moment.

So it was early March for us but June for the opposition?

Objective view: It was early March for both sides and we were trying. We had a full side picked.

Do you think we were holding back and waiting to flick the switch when the real stuff starts?

Where was this switch in 2013 (16th), 2014 (18th) and 2015 (14th)?

Or have we found a new secret magical switch we are waiting to unleash when the time is right?

Handy Hint: There is no magic switch. What you see is what you get.

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