Carlisle Was A Big Big Mistake

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Trev from the Bush
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Re: Carlisle Was A Big Big Mistake

Post: # 1600120Post Trev from the Bush »

spert wrote:Unless Richo pulls some kind of magic trick out of his hat, I see this season as a repeat of last season, so we might as well look forward to 2017 when JC is available, though to me getting a quality midfield assembled is the priority.

So, does this mean you were disappointed with last season Spert?


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Re: Carlisle Was A Big Big Mistake

Post: # 1600121Post magnifisaint »

To the top wrote:So let's put some FACTS on the table, not rubbish.

St Kilda have had a long term (including when we relied on Dawson as a key defender, because he was rubbish) problem with key defenders, relying on Fisher who is now well past 30 and who was missing for a couple of years because of injury.

We really have not had good key defenders since the pre-injury Maguire, the pre-injury Penny and Hudgden.

So we address the issue short term by recruiting Delaney from North Melbourne.

We draft Goddard because of his credentials as a possible long term key defender.

Fisher returns in 2015 - and continues on in 2016, but he is now that much older.

Thru this time we got absolutely cut up by our lack of key defenders with opposition sides pushing their ruckmen forward to further exploit our deficiencies.

It was an abject joke - and resulted in us using Stanley as a full back, which he was not and harming his development.

Carlisle, who has potential as a key defender, but who Essendon attempted to turn into a key forward against his wishes, became disallusioned with Essendon, venting against them as he did and for understandable reasons (Essendon are a disgrace of a sporting Club and has no regards for its players).

So St Kilda, with the glaring deficiency on its list, moved to Contract the 198cm key defender - successfully and against opposition from other Clubs and the response of Essendon which was the response you would expect from a criminal Club which pays no regard to the health and well being of its players (and was convicted and fined by Workcover).

Yes, there was the video - but if you think that Carlisle is the only AFL player doing such a thing you have rocks in your head - because the AFL dynamic represents society.

The fact was that, because of the video, he is under notice - and under scrutiny - correctly.

The 12 month suspension, despite the players being culpable because they took injections and did not divulge this at any stage was ultimately down to the culture which is the Essendon Football Club.

So it is not where and what Carlisle comes from - we all know of Essendon Football Club.

It is what he does from now.

And St Kilda actually have a decent 198cm defender with some experience on its books - and gee, we don't half need that because we have a gaping hole right there.

So what were the options to repair this gaping hole absent recruiting Carlisle?

Carlisle is now one of our blocks to a better future - along with Goddard, Mc Cartin and Bruce.

The recruiting of Carlisle was a necessity - and an urgent necessity.
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Re: Carlisle Was A Big Big Mistake

Post: # 1600122Post samoht »

Carlisle can play forward, which is a bonus (versatility is important) -- and he has McCartin and Goddard to look up to as good role models (must be humbling for him).


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Re: Carlisle Was A Big Big Mistake

Post: # 1600125Post spert »

Trev from the Bush wrote:
spert wrote:Unless Richo pulls some kind of magic trick out of his hat, I see this season as a repeat of last season, so we might as well look forward to 2017 when JC is available, though to me getting a quality midfield assembled is the priority.

So, does this mean you were disappointed with last season Spert?
Yes slightly disappointed, a few underachievers and some tactical issues on match days did worry me, but I seriously doubt if any on the list are going to take a big step to the next level this season, but of course we can always hope!


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Re: Carlisle Was A Big Big Mistake

Post: # 1600126Post whiskers3614 »

ripplug66 wrote:No doubt a proven player is the better option than the draft. The only thing safer about the draft is the difference in cash and it seems cash isn't a problem with this trade this year. As for parish being better well who cares. We couldn't get him unless we somehow got pick 4.
Yes Plugger so long as that proven player is also not a proven imbecile!
Surely this peanut is not the only KPD potentially available 2015-2017.
Please don't trot out the old "others are doing much worse " line.
NO other player has been reported slagging off his club within hearing range of opposition!
As for drug use, it is stupidity of FEvola/Capper standard to photograph and disseminate evidence of your criminality!


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Re: Carlisle Was A Big Big Mistake

Post: # 1600127Post terry smith rules »

To the top wrote:So let's put some FACTS on the table, not rubbish.

St Kilda have had a long term (including when we relied on Dawson as a key defender, because he was rubbish) problem with key defenders, relying on Fisher who is now well past 30 and who was missing for a couple of years because of injury.

We really have not had good key defenders since the pre-injury Maguire, the pre-injury Penny and Hudgden.


Wow if only you actually put facts on the table

"Zac Dawson was rubbish", really? This is the player who was awarded equal player of the finals in 2010

The player who has one of the lowest goals kicked against averages

Do you think for one moment he would have played as many games and finals if he was not respected by those who actually count and make the decisions, not some forum wannabe


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Re: Carlisle Was A Big Big Mistake

Post: # 1600128Post whiskers3614 »

How many games has Dawson played where master-coach Lyon wasn't at the helm?


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Re: Carlisle Was A Big Big Mistake

Post: # 1600129Post terry smith rules »

whiskers3614 wrote:How many games has Dawson played where master-coach Lyon wasn't at the helm?
Whats that got to do with it?

How many games did Fletcher play with Sheedy coach...


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Re: Carlisle Was A Big Big Mistake

Post: # 1600130Post whiskers3614 »

terry smith rules wrote:
whiskers3614 wrote:How many games has Dawson played where master-coach Lyon wasn't at the helm?
Whats that got to do with it?

How many games did Fletcher play with Sheedy coach...
No-one is disputing Fletcher's standing as an AFL standard footballer.
Dawson on the other hand..

and I will accept he was good in 2010 finals, however with most other coaches/gameplans I doubt he would have ever gotten to 50 games!


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Re: Carlisle Was A Big Big Mistake

Post: # 1600131Post ripplug66 »

whiskers3614 wrote:
ripplug66 wrote:No doubt a proven player is the better option than the draft. The only thing safer about the draft is the difference in cash and it seems cash isn't a problem with this trade this year. As for parish being better well who cares. We couldn't get him unless we somehow got pick 4.
Yes Plugger so long as that proven player is also not a proven imbecile!
Surely this peanut is not the only KPD potentially available 2015-2017.
Please don't trot out the old "others are doing much worse " line.
NO other player has been reported slagging off his club within hearing range of opposition!
As for drug use, it is stupidity of FEvola/Capper standard to photograph and disseminate evidence of your criminality!
Reported? Anyway who cares what he has done previously. We have a million page thread on how Essendon are rooted. Maybe Carlisle was mentally stuffed with them. Why can't we wait and see how he goes before we decide the world is ending


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Re: Carlisle Was A Big Big Mistake

Post: # 1600134Post whiskers3614 »

The world is not ending and Carlisle may have a long, successful and hassle free career with the Saints.
None of this will make the original decision and price paid any more correct IMHO!


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Re: Carlisle Was A Big Big Mistake

Post: # 1600135Post Wrote for Luck »

You have to evaluate Carlisle along with Gresham and White (plus O'Kearney and Coughlan).
If we didn't trade for Carlisle we most likely would have selected other players. Rice and Freeman most likely would have found their way to us regardless.
If you are saying Carlisle was a mistake, you are indirectly unhappy with Gresham too.
Which may turn out to be very, very foolish words.


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Re: Carlisle Was A Big Big Mistake

Post: # 1600136Post Darth Vader »

BigMart wrote:Couple of things

No doubt we paid overs for Jake, most of the time you have to when recruiting a player. His actual output was no where near his salary demand. Bit of early Kosi about Jakes career.
Started well... Then had a purple patch for a month and is now got serious tendinitis of the Knee and can't even train.
He's a 700k player without an accolade?!

That aside, yes he can play a bit... And the year off is something many players face in there careers...

Not the big worry though

That is his putrid attitude, in his last year at Essendon he was petulant and just sooking... You can tell a lot about a person when the chips are down IMO
His body is in average condition, he was filmed snorting coke a week after his trade and is most likely an idiot like Fev.

For all his footy failings, at least Kosi was a ripper bloke and gave everything he had... That we can respect.

Carlisle ATM is a poor mans Lovett
Ironically from the same club, recruited in desperation for a missing piece, so we paid heaps at high risk.

If it works out - which it might
It'll be all worth it

Chances are, the draft would have been the safer option... Because I thought that was our strategy.

Gresham will be OK
Again, chances are, parish will be far better.
What's Parish got to do with it?


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Re: Carlisle Was A Big Big Mistake

Post: # 1600137Post Con Gorozidis »

We couldnt have got Parish anyway. Essendon finished below us. Maybe if we had pick 4 we wouldnt have done the Carlisle trade and used pick 4 in the draft. Essendon used our pick on Francis.

Regardless I think it is way too early to be making a judgment on the Carlisle trade. Let's wait 18 months and then see how he is going.

Off topic but I was skeptical about Parish but it looks almost certain I was wrong. He looks like an absolute beast. Much bigger than I thought.


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Re: Carlisle Was A Big Big Mistake

Post: # 1600141Post Bluthy »

Bit of panic stricken title. Look my preference was to go to the draft and get a classy mid with pick 5 and another tall backman with our second rounder. I liked the idea of two young backmen (draft and Goddard) developing together to form a tight unit to be our backline bedrock for a decade. But I think why they pulled the trigger on Carlisle is that he probably does open our premiership window earlier. We want Armo, Steven, Geary and maybe Gilbo to still be at good capacity when we have our first flag assault. Carlisle fills in that mid age group we are still desperate for. I am worried about how durable he'll be with his knee and back problems but you've got to think the club is confident they can keep him motoring along.

The club has arranged a sponser to give him a job in building and construction. That conveniently gives us a handy link to keep an eye on the the young fella and feed across training info and hopefully keeps him out of trouble. But he still worries me. Why post a picture of hanging out with a DJ on the rave scene to your twitter account when you were notoriously busted for recreational drugs - its just dumb and unnecessary. Like Martin, Carlisle is just one of those impulsive people who don't have the ability to reflect on their actions or behaviour before the event. It can be a double edged sword as those milli-second twitch-reactions can make them brilliant footy players.

Whether Carlisle can be an a-grader we need to wait and see. He's coming into a great development environment and Richo seems like that authoritative father figure that Jake needs to mature as a footy player and a person. Will 6 months out of the limelight help him mature and want to make the most of his prime footy years? Lets hope so. If Gresham and Jake both turn into a-graders for us then you have to say it was a good move.

I'd like to see us keep developing a tall backmen or two as backup which might mean drafting another young big guy and we have Coughlan as rookie. Anything, and I mean anything, could happen with Jake.


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Re: Carlisle Was A Big Big Mistake

Post: # 1600142Post samuraisaint »

Trev from the Bush wrote:
spert wrote:Unless Richo pulls some kind of magic trick out of his hat, I see this season as a repeat of last season, so we might as well look forward to 2017 when JC is available, though to me getting a quality midfield assembled is the priority.

So, does this mean you were disappointed with last season Spert?
Spert - it is going to be a repeat of last season. It has to be, Carlisle can't play, but will get over his knee tendonitis at last, Freeman will probably only play a handful of games and have his conditioning monitored, and Bailey Rice has got chronic fatigue and will probably debut this season, but little else.
But we ARE filling holes in the team which we need to fill - Carlisle the big, mobile CHB we have lacked, Freeman the outside quick midfielder we need. 2017 is the year we will re-renter the mid-table on the ladder. Then it becomes a matter of how well we fill the shoes of our Grand Final heroes retiring. If we finish bottom four or five we will get a high draft pick, and we can go after FAs as well. I reckon we target Hurley as a lot of those Essendon guys are wanting out.


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Re: Carlisle Was A Big Big Mistake

Post: # 1600143Post Bunk_Moreland »

Darth Vader wrote:
BigMart wrote:Couple of things

No doubt we paid overs for Jake, most of the time you have to when recruiting a player. His actual output was no where near his salary demand. Bit of early Kosi about Jakes career.
Started well... Then had a purple patch for a month and is now got serious tendinitis of the Knee and can't even train.
He's a 700k player without an accolade?!

That aside, yes he can play a bit... And the year off is something many players face in there careers...

Not the big worry though

That is his putrid attitude, in his last year at Essendon he was petulant and just sooking... You can tell a lot about a person when the chips are down IMO
His body is in average condition, he was filmed snorting coke a week after his trade and is most likely an idiot like Fev.

For all his footy failings, at least Kosi was a ripper bloke and gave everything he had... That we can respect.

Carlisle ATM is a poor mans Lovett
Ironically from the same club, recruited in desperation for a missing piece, so we paid heaps at high risk.

If it works out - which it might
It'll be all worth it

Chances are, the draft would have been the safer option... Because I thought that was our strategy.

Gresham will be OK
Again, chances are, parish will be far better.
What's Parish got to do with it?
Was going to ask the same thing.
Essendon picked Parish which was #4 by Essendon turned into #5 after Mills was taken in the Academy.

Our pick #5 then was #6 and Essendon took Francis.

Have no idea what Parish keeps getting mentioned. Even if we had kept 5 Parish was already gone.


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Re: Carlisle Was A Big Big Mistake

Post: # 1600144Post samuraisaint »

spert wrote:
Trev from the Bush wrote:
spert wrote:Unless Richo pulls some kind of magic trick out of his hat, I see this season as a repeat of last season, so we might as well look forward to 2017 when JC is available, though to me getting a quality midfield assembled is the priority.

So, does this mean you were disappointed with last season Spert?
Yes slightly disappointed, a few underachievers and some tactical issues on match days did worry me, but I seriously doubt if any on the list are going to take a big step to the next level this season, but of course we can always hope!
The last six matches of 2016 give us an accurate form guide of where we are - we can beat the bottom four or five sides, can take it up to the mid-table sides, but nowhere near the top 8 teams yet.


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Re: Carlisle Was A Big Big Mistake

Post: # 1600146Post saynta »

The mistake is having anything to do with those cheating arseholes out at essendon.


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Re: Carlisle Was A Big Big Mistake

Post: # 1600150Post Con Gorozidis »

samuraisaint wrote:
spert wrote:
Trev from the Bush wrote:
spert wrote:Unless Richo pulls some kind of magic trick out of his hat, I see this season as a repeat of last season, so we might as well look forward to 2017 when JC is available, though to me getting a quality midfield assembled is the priority.

So, does this mean you were disappointed with last season Spert?
Yes slightly disappointed, a few underachievers and some tactical issues on match days did worry me, but I seriously doubt if any on the list are going to take a big step to the next level this season, but of course we can always hope!
The last six matches of 2016 give us an accurate form guide of where we are - we can beat the bottom four or five sides, can take it up to the mid-table sides, but nowhere near the top 8 teams yet.
The problem with us making the 8 is that even if we improve from last year we still need to catch Geelong (10th), GWS (11th) and Collingwood (12th). You'd think at least two of those three should improve at least a little bit. Collingwood might improve a lot.

From the 8? Well maybe the Swans and Crows could drop out but given they have decent home grounds you wouldnt think either will crash to the bottom 4.


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Re: Carlisle Was A Big Big Mistake

Post: # 1600157Post Enrico_Misso »

Could be our biggest recruiting debacle since Stewie - and we have a very very very looooooooooong list of poor recruiting decisions.


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Re: Carlisle Was A Big Big Mistake

Post: # 1600158Post BigMart »

Then the stk theory of going to the draft for high end talent has been silly....

If a (proven) player is a better option.

Instead of getting rid of (proven) players for top 20 picks we should have traded??

Jake isn't proven... How many top 5 B&F finishes, how many accolades... Seriously, he had a good month and has been handy at times
We recruited potential.... Not Proven. Alex Rance is proven!!!

Luke Delaney smashed him when we played them

On having no key defenders
We were the best defence for three years straight at one point ... With
Fisher/Blake/(Dawson/Hudghton) who were outstanding solid backs
Fisher played CHB never as a hbf as some think... He was an AA CHB ffs
Hudghton was a gun and Blakey a soldier

Lately Dempster has finished top 5 B&F 3 times and been an AA 3rd defender (Proven)
Delaney finished top 5 in 2014

Before that we had Maguire, Penny

Key backs have been ok IMO
Not many weaknesses in a side that played in 5 prelim finals in 7 years I would think??


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Re: Carlisle Was A Big Big Mistake

Post: # 1600160Post BigMart »

Oh, if we are talking 2013/2014 as struggling with Key Backs

Fisher didn't play at all
Gilbert didn't play at all

Gwilt was playing, Tom Simpkin was playing, Rhys was tried
We were a putrid team at that point


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Re: Carlisle Was A Big Big Mistake

Post: # 1600193Post ROLS-LEE »

magnifisaint wrote:
To the top wrote:So let's put some FACTS on the table, not rubbish.

St Kilda have had a long term (including when we relied on Dawson as a key defender, because he was rubbish) problem with key defenders, relying on Fisher who is now well past 30 and who was missing for a couple of years because of injury.

We really have not had good key defenders since the pre-injury Maguire, the pre-injury Penny and Hudgden.

So we address the issue short term by recruiting Delaney from North Melbourne.

We draft Goddard because of his credentials as a possible long term key defender.

Fisher returns in 2015 - and continues on in 2016, but he is now that much older.

Thru this time we got absolutely cut up by our lack of key defenders with opposition sides pushing their ruckmen forward to further exploit our deficiencies.

It was an abject joke - and resulted in us using Stanley as a full back, which he was not and harming his development.

Carlisle, who has potential as a key defender, but who Essendon attempted to turn into a key forward against his wishes, became disallusioned with Essendon, venting against them as he did and for understandable reasons (Essendon are a disgrace of a sporting Club and has no regards for its players).

So St Kilda, with the glaring deficiency on its list, moved to Contract the 198cm key defender - successfully and against opposition from other Clubs and the response of Essendon which was the response you would expect from a criminal Club which pays no regard to the health and well being of its players (and was convicted and fined by Workcover).

Yes, there was the video - but if you think that Carlisle is the only AFL player doing such a thing you have rocks in your head - because the AFL dynamic represents society.

The fact was that, because of the video, he is under notice - and under scrutiny - correctly.

The 12 month suspension, despite the players being culpable because they took injections and did not divulge this at any stage was ultimately down to the culture which is the Essendon Football Club.

So it is not where and what Carlisle comes from - we all know of Essendon Football Club.

It is what he does from now.

And St Kilda actually have a decent 198cm defender with some experience on its books - and gee, we don't half need that because we have a gaping hole right there.

So what were the options to repair this gaping hole absent recruiting Carlisle?

Carlisle is now one of our blocks to a better future - along with Goddard, Mc Cartin and Bruce.

The recruiting of Carlisle was a necessity - and an urgent necessity.
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Ditto


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Re: Carlisle Was A Big Big Mistake

Post: # 1600194Post Con Gorozidis »

Fisher and Dempster are only one serious injury away from retirement.
Both will be gone in 18 months regardless.


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