Ruck Training

[BigMart]

Plug,

You're an arm chair critic, nothing more... Let's be honest, You've never even pulled on a jumper and don't understand physicality at the coal face ... You actually don't understand... Which is why you comments on here are nothing more than argumentative rubbish, with no basis or substance. You just love to debate. I am pretty confident that when we compare, one of us speaks from experience of some sort.. The other just thinks he knows stuff

You're involvement at Ormond is probably commendable, every club needs guys like you. My involvement is/has always been as a part of the footy dept. player, coach, selector or fitness advisor.

So please, continue to think you're important. I'll continue to think you're not.

[BackFromUSA]

Ok plugs and mart - enough!!!

Bickering stops now.

Post ONLY on Footy.

Not each other.

[ripplug66]

Ok plugs and mart - enough!!!

Bickering stops now.

Post ONLY on Footy.

Not each other.

Maybe just stop what a person suggests they know about each other because let's face it none of us know about our footy ability

[samoht]

The stats speaking..

2005 season with the Hawks ... Peter Everitt averaged 25 Hitouts/game and kicked 17 goals for the season.
He averaged just over 18 possessions and around 6 marks/game.

Repeat, over 18 possessions around the ground/game and almost a goal a game!

Compared to the AFL game average for that season: the Hawks had 4 more hitouts, but 0.2 less stoppages, and only 0.1 more total clearances /game.

So despite his perceived masterly tap work and being thought of as a hitout wiz, where Everitt stood out and made the real difference and helped give the Hawks the edge in the ruck - was in what he did around the ground.

***In fairness, there might be a hit out to advantage stat that separates the top to bottom ruckmen (maybe by as much as 5 or 6/game - but that sounds too much to me - I'm thinking it's probably 2-3/game?)-- that is not being taken into account, here. I don't have this stat - if someone can produce it and show it in terms of x hitouts to advantage/game difference - I'd appreciate it. It'd give us a more rounded view.
Then we can argue what this advantage (of 2 or 3/game or whatever?) may or may not amount to.

[Long Term Injury]

Ok plugs and mart - enough!!!

Bickering stops now.

Post ONLY on Footy.

Not each other.

I just worked it out, they are the same person with split personality... it now all makes sense!!!

[borderbarry]

Re Jason Holmes, he has a spectacular leap and already is probably our number one ruckman for hit outs. However he had many other shortcomings as he showed in the last three games last year, mainly in his marking. Does anyone know if he has shown any signs of improvement in this pre season?

Bump..

[Jacks Back]

Re Jason Holmes, he has a spectacular leap and already is probably our number one ruckman for hit outs. However he had many other shortcomings as he showed in the last three games last year, mainly in his marking. Does anyone know if he has shown any signs of improvement in this pre season?

Bump..

I was one who wanted Holmes to come in and play last year so at least we can get a look at him but he is definitely not up to it. He needs a lot more than tap outs to be any good but I can't see him improving too much to be able to read the play and get those marks (and kick the ball properly). I hope I'm wrong though.

[kosifantutti]

I can't see that Holmes is that much behind Longer. I'd prefer Hickey over both of them.

[BigMart]

Why?

And why doesn't AR

For what he's achieved... Tom Hickey is the most overrated player on the list.

If you're as good as many forumites would have you believe, he wouldn't play more games at Sandy than StK

I think Longer sits at 34 StK 3 Sandringham
Hickey has played as often at Sandy as StK

[kosifantutti]

Why? Because that's my opinion

And why doesn't AR Because that's his opinion

I'm taking a bit of a punt here and assuming you're answering my post. Well thought out answers above in italics.

[BigMart]

So you don't rate the opinion of our coach?

[kosifantutti]

Yes. I also have my own opinion. I'm expressing my opinion as part of a discussion.

[BigMart]

That's why I asked you to expand on the justification of your opinion... To understand why you (and others) rate an underperforming player as highly as you do?

Your responses before gave no insight into how you formed your opinion? I'm interested to know, as I (and the coach) don't rate him ahead of Longer (whom I also only rate as average at this point)?

[Gershwin]

After the intra-club practice match:

When pressed as to whether St Kilda could afford to select two specialist ruckmen in Round 1, Welsh indicated the abolishment of the green vest will work in favour of the big men.

“I reckon they (Longer and another ruckman) could play together,” he said.

“Especially when Hickey went forward a little bit — he looked dangerous in the air. That’s something we will definitely explore a little bit.”

[BigMart]

Explore a little bit

Powerful words

Hickey used his height to take two grabs. Wasn't paid one because he triple grabbed it and it wasn't paid... The other touched of the boot. He missed two simple set shots.
His ruck work was better than pierce (expected) but he never won a possession around the ground. Holmes dominated pierce at the bounce.

Tom, I would have had above both ruckmen yesterday
One a rookie, one an underdeveloped player... He should have dominated around the ground.

He did show he can grab the ball when fwd, would need to invert from 30m.

If two ruckmen play
Hickey will play
If one ruckman plays
He will most likely not

[ripplug66]

Explore a little bit

Powerful words

Hickey used his height to take two grabs. Wasn't paid one because he triple grabbed it and it wasn't paid... The other touched of the boot. He missed two simple set shots.
His ruck work was better than pierce (expected) but he never won a possession around the ground. Holmes dominated pierce at the bounce.

Tom, I would have had above both ruckmen yesterday
One a rookie, one an underdeveloped player... He should have dominated around the ground.

He did show he can grab the ball when fwd, would need to invert from 30m.

If two ruckmen play
Hickey will play
If one ruckman plays
He will most likely not

How did he miss 2 set shots if he didn't win a possession around the ground? He also took a mark when rucking deep in the forward pocket. I'm sure that is also a possession. 3 shots at goals seems pretty good to me.

[BigMart]

Around the ground means
Whilst he was playing 'on the ball'

On both those occasions he was playing deep forward.

It's footy vernacular meaning 'up field'
If Tony Lockett got possessions 'around the ground' it would mean he moved from his normal deep position to win the ball.

He actually got 5 touches i50

[To the top]

Longer and Hickey is akin to Vidovic and Everitt.

Everitt was afforded the opportunity to push forward by the presence of Vidovic.

I am one who thinks that Hickey will prove very damaging forward - and very useful in the ruck and around the ground.

How many ruckmen were BOG when playing against us last year?

[Jacks Back]

Longer and Hickey is akin to Vidovic and Everitt.

Everitt was afforded the opportunity to push forward by the presence of Vidovic.

I am one who thinks that Hickey will prove very damaging forward - and very useful in the ruck and around the ground.

How many ruckmen were BOG when playing against us last year?

The problem is the same as last year when Hickey played along side Longer. Hickey in the forward line means that McCartin or Membrey may not get a chance to play with Roo and Bruce also there unless Roo plays more on a wing but then we would be too top heavy up forward. It's a dilemma.

[BigMart]

Is Tom as good a tall fwd as

McCartin
Membrey
Bruce
Riewoldt

?

[Gershwin]

Is Tom as good a tall fwd as

McCartin
Membrey
Bruce
Riewoldt

?

Are
McCartin
Membrey
Bruce
Riewoldt
as good as relieving Ruckmen as Hickey?

[BigMart]

Of course they are not

Question is

What's more important

Having a competent second ruck for 30% or a competent forward in the 3rd role??

If he catches it, he may not kick it... And he will get limited shots, will he be competent at ground level?? and he will be a witches hat when opposition are rebounding.

Having 3 tall fwds is a recipe for disaster if they aren't marking the ball

[To the top]

Membrey a "tall forward"

Must be missing something.

Membrey to me is, at best, an ordinary medium sized footballer who can be very easily negated in terms of being an impact player in the forward line and a scoring player in the forward line.

In terms of forward pressure, I see that coming from far, far quicker players starting from Lonie.

In terms of midfield, the 188cm (so mid field size) Membrey is not in the same class as our emerging options.

Witness Membrey has kicked 9 goals in 13 appearances playing as a forward.

Hickey has kicked 17 in 41 games playing as a ruckman.

Longer has kicked 2 in 43 games playing as a ruckman.

My view is that we do not want to ruck Bruce (or any other KPP) under any circumstances.

Bruce's versatility will come from being able to be pushed back if we are exposed defensively for height at any time (especially until Carlisle arrives).

Riewoldt has versatility because he can be deployed around the ground (hence nominally on a wing with Mc Cartin and Bruce as the forward KPP's).

Mc Cartin does not appear to have the versatility to play other than as a forward option at this stage of his development - and most definitely not in the ruck.

Hickey and Longer are the ruck options, with Hickey the "X" factor because he can push forward to put pressure on an opposition defense and looking to open opportunity for Mc Cartin and Bruce to go one on one.

Mind you, the mids and the rebounding defense have to put the pill in frequently and to advantage.

[ripplug66]

Membrey a "tall forward"

Must be missing something.

Membrey to me is, at best, an ordinary medium sized footballer who can be very easily negated in terms of being an impact player in the forward line and a scoring player in the forward line.

In terms of forward pressure, I see that coming from far, far quicker players starting from Lonie.

In terms of midfield, the 188cm (so mid field size) Membrey is not in the same class as our emerging options.

Witness Membrey has kicked 9 goals in 13 appearances playing as a forward.

Hickey has kicked 17 in 41 games playing as a ruckman.

Longer has kicked 2 in 43 games playing as a ruckman.

My view is that we do not want to ruck Bruce (or any other KPP) under any circumstances.

Bruce's versatility will come from being able to be pushed back if we are exposed defensively for height at any time (especially until Carlisle arrives).

Riewoldt has versatility because he can be deployed around the ground (hence nominally on a wing with Mc Cartin and Bruce as the forward KPP's).

Mc Cartin does not appear to have the versatility to play other than as a forward option at this stage of his development - and most definitely not in the ruck.

Hickey and Longer are the ruck options, with Hickey the "X" factor because he can push forward to put pressure on an opposition defense and looking to open opportunity for Mc Cartin and Bruce to go one on one.

Mind you, the mids and the rebounding defense have to put the pill in frequently and to advantage.

Hickey and Longer are the ruck options. The question is can 2 play in the same side. They will try it as they did last year but like last year I think it will fail. Longer cannot play forward. That is clear. Hickey can but seems to eventually fail. I cant see how we can get away without Bruce rucking for about 20 minutes a game. You cant play Hickey as a forward if he isn't up to it just so Bruce doesn't ruck for 20 minutes. We really do need Hickey to take the next step to be a forward.

[BigMart]

Membrey will surprise this season. Don't make the mistake of looking at total output of players under 20 games.... Just need glimpses... VFL or AFL

His hit up work last year, and off the ball work was excellent occasionally.... Our fwd line functioned well with him

His overhead marking is outstanding for a mid-size. He plays well above his height and