Ruck Training

[gringo]

Hickey is a similar build to Spida Everitt. He has tree trunk thighs and a thin upper body. He is by no means small though. I went to the jumper presentation, training and the Dare ice coffee launch last year and met him- he's a big lad, very nice funny guy and was really struggling with his knee all preseason. He was sent off to get his knee worked on in europe and was not training. If he can get himself fit enough for some preseason work he might get to string together a decent season. His overhead and contested marking was fantastic at times last year and hopefully he can get more consistent and play a bit season out. It's pretty rare to have no ruck injuries- touch wood we have another year with lots of guys pushing for the first ruck role.

[Playon]

I have proof

[BigMart]

how many do you need?

if he's any good... or was any good... he'd have played last year.

he had some games where he was basically a liability as a forward. We were killed at stoppage when he was in the ruck... mids could not set up offensively. We were always on the back foot. We have 2 clearance machines, yet get flogged when he's in.

he's an OK back up... if he was a far better fwd.

[Bluthy]

how many do you need?

if he's any good... or was any good... he'd have played last year.

he had some games where he was basically a liability as a forward. We were killed at stoppage when he was in the ruck... mids could not set up offensively. We were always on the back foot. We have 2 clearance machines, yet get flogged when he's in.

he's an OK back up... if he was a far better fwd.

I don't know why people think you don't need depth in the ruck - every other position we need depth in case of injury, some players not coming on, competition for spots driving development etc why not the ruck? You just don't know what will transpire. Look at Hawthorn who traded a high pick for McEvoy even though they had pretty good rucks. We could be playing finals next year and want the ruck well covered for when our midfield really start becoming a force. Longer needs to start doing a lot more around the ground - he is close to useless at the moment. Hickey showed he could dominate around the ground in a couple of games - marking, kicking goals, helping out down back. And then the is the whole question of Tom as fwd-ruck that I think may be answered a bit this year - one way or another. If he can't pull it off maybe we look at recruiting another key forward.

I don't get this sense of panic - how can we keep both on our list, we have to do a trade!!!!!. How can we have ARmo, Dunstan, Ross all playing together? Things work themselves out in the long run and hard decisions may have to be made but you need to see how players develop as they can surprise you when they fully bloom. You forget how much watering and mulch and care had to keep being applied before seeing the results.

We don't know if Longer will start as the no. 1 ruck for this season yet. Hickey will have a shot at putting in some good performances in the preseason. If Hickey gets stuck a bit this year and requests a trade you look at it then. Would someone want him? But if he's happy to keep plugging away - which it sounds like he is - then its great we have two strong, but different style, ruck options. Thats a big tick for depth for me. Then it depends if Pierce and/or Holmes develop into genuine AFL level rucks as if they come on maybe you look if you are overloaded on ruckmen. But at the moment I don't think we are. I think we are spot on.

We're not just trying to develop a great 24 players. WE are trying to get it to 30-35 quality players on our list, covering all positions. What wins you premierships is who you are forced to leave out in grand final day. You want the selection committee to have options and a delicious selection headache.

[BigMart]

we gave up too much for a back up player... imo

nothing wrong with have ruck depth... but to spend a lot of resources on back ups diminishes quality of starting 18 players

would you trade a frdp on a fringe mid??

him or Longer... didnt need both .... As high resouced commodities. you can get decent back ups in the ruck deep in the draft.

as far as longer vs hickey

AR is huge on winning stoppage.... Longer competes better at stoppages

[saynta]

how many do you need?

if he's any good... or was any good... he'd have played last year.

he had some games where he was basically a liability as a forward. We were killed at stoppage when he was in the ruck... mids could not set up offensively. We were always on the back foot. We have 2 clearance machines, yet get flogged when he's in.

he's an OK back up... if he was a far better fwd.

I don't know why people think you don't need depth in the ruck - every other position we need depth in case of injury, some players not coming on, competition for spots driving development etc why not the ruck? You just don't know what will transpire. Look at Hawthorn who traded a high pick for McEvoy even though they had pretty good rucks. We could be playing finals next year and want the ruck well covered for when our midfield really start becoming a force. Longer needs to start doing a lot more around the ground - he is close to useless at the moment. Hickey showed he could dominate around the ground in a couple of games - marking, kicking goals, helping out down back. And then the is the whole question of Tom as fwd-ruck that I think may be answered a bit this year - one way or another. If he can't pull it off maybe we look at recruiting another key forward.

I don't get this sense of panic - how can we keep both on our list, we have to do a trade!!!!!. How can we have ARmo, Dunstan, Ross all playing together? Things work themselves out in the long run and hard decisions may have to be made but you need to see how players develop as they can surprise you when they fully bloom. You forget how much watering and mulch and care had to keep being applied before seeing the results.

We don't know if Longer will start as the no. 1 ruck for this season yet. Hickey will have a shot at putting in some good performances in the preseason. If Hickey gets stuck a bit this year and requests a trade you look at it then. Would someone want him? But if he's happy to keep plugging away - which it sounds like he is - then its great we have two strong, but different style, ruck options. Thats a big tick for depth for me. Then it depends if Pierce and/or Holmes develop into genuine AFL level rucks as if they come on maybe you look if you are overloaded on ruckmen. But at the moment I don't think we are. I think we are spot on.

We're not just trying to develop a great 24 players. WE are trying to get it to 30-35 quality players on our list, covering all positions. What wins you premierships is who you are forced to leave out in grand final day. You want the selection committee to have options and a delicious selection headache.

Good post, Well argued.

[Gershwin]

It has been a long time since we have had a dominating ruckman. By that I mean a ruckman that the opposition are worried about countering. Most of the time we are happy to break even. I don't know why. We have had marvellous centremen, forwards and defenders. But ruckman - who?

I'm still favouring going in with both Hickey and Longer changing off the bench. Between them they will keep the opposition busy. One who has athletic ability and marking strength around the ground and the other who can compete in the hit-outs (although maybe Holmes can do even better).

I just don't want to see Bruce forced to ruck. He needs to stay and compete and dominate in the forward line.
If we use 4 interchanges in playing 2 ruckman so be it.

[ripplug66]

It has been a long time since we have had a dominating ruckman. By that I mean a ruckman that the opposition are worried about countering. Most of the time we are happy to break even. I don't know why. We have had marvellous centremen, forwards and defenders. But ruckman - who?

I'm still favouring going in with both Hickey and Longer changing off the bench. Between them they will keep the opposition busy. One who has athletic ability and marking strength around the ground and the other who can compete in the hit-outs (although maybe Holmes can do even better).

I just don't want to see Bruce forced to ruck. He needs to stay and compete and dominate in the forward line.
If we use 4 interchanges in playing 2 ruckman so be it.

Still cant see them playing a ruckman off the bench. Maybe wrong but one of us will be right. It will be interesting.

[samoht]

I wouldn't have a problem with us playing 2 ruckmen, if they could gather an average of 30 around the ground disposals - between the 2 of them per game.
The Natanui/Cox ruck combination worked well because Cox gathered a lot of possessions around the ground - we haven't really got a ruckman who can gather the 15-20 possessions per game on average to be able to carry a second ruckman - Hickey has the potential to do that, but he's injury prone and can't get going.

[wally]

Is it possible that should an opposition ruckman be rested in the forward pocket could a ruckman be rested in the back pocket?
The only object would be to nullify the forward,wouldn't be much worse than some height mismatches that occur.

[Bluthy]

we gave up too much for a back up player... imo

nothing wrong with have ruck depth... but to spend a lot of resources on back ups diminishes quality of starting 18 players

would you trade a frdp on a fringe mid??

him or Longer... didnt need both .... As high resouced commodities. you can get decent back ups in the ruck deep in the draft.

as far as longer vs hickey

AR is huge on winning stoppage.... Longer competes better at stoppages

Perhaps it was too high for Hickey. But if...and its a huge if at the moment...he can go onto be that genuine forward-ruck option, then that is a huge plank in our premiership set-up. If we are 3 goals up in a grand final 15 mins into the 3rd quarter and Bruce goes into the ruck, then I will genuinely throw up. Like actually be physically sick. Here you go oppo, we'll give you a break in the middle where we previously had our foot on your throat slowly choking you death, get some clearances and goals and get your confidence and momentum going - you're welcome!

We want to be up for a long time and keep our premiership window open for as long as we can. We want to make 4 or 5 grand finals. Mathematics says you will win at least one of those. There could be years when Longer or Hickey is injured for a lot of it. You can''t afford to have one good ruck on your list if you are going for a flag. Yes you can do the trading in a ruckman option that has been used by teams challenging for a flag - Geelong did well with Ottens. But the other way to do is the way we are. We have the two guys on our list now, locked in. We don't have to cross our fingers and hope someone pops up at the right time - sometimes just a journeyman or recently retired players past their best. And we wouldn't need to trade away our highest pick at that time that we want to use to rejuvenate our list and keep our window open. Gardiner and King did a pretty good job but both were past their prime. We will have two rucks in their prime, who will have worked for years with our team especially our midfield. Thats an advantage.

It can refresh a team to have a new ruck come in and be competing for those ruck spots. You want that sense of hunger bubbling away. Hawthorn do it so well. If Ceglar comes into Hawks seniors he will be absolutely desperate to make it to the premiership dias after missing out and provide freshness and something different.

[ripplug66]

we gave up too much for a back up player... imo

nothing wrong with have ruck depth... but to spend a lot of resources on back ups diminishes quality of starting 18 players

would you trade a frdp on a fringe mid??

him or Longer... didnt need both .... As high resouced commodities. you can get decent back ups in the ruck deep in the draft.

as far as longer vs hickey

AR is huge on winning stoppage.... Longer competes better at stoppages

Perhaps it was too high for Hickey. But if...and its a huge if at the moment...he can go onto be that genuine forward-ruck option, then that is a huge plank in our premiership set-up. If we are 3 goals up in a grand final 15 mins into the 3rd quarter and Bruce goes into the ruck, then I will genuinely throw up. Like actually be physically sick. Here you go oppo, we'll give you a break in the middle where we previously had our foot on your throat slowly choking you death, get some clearances and goals and get your confidence and momentum going - you're welcome!

We want to be up for a long time and keep our premiership window open for as long as we can. We want to make 4 or 5 grand finals. Mathematics says you will win at least one of those. There could be years when Longer or Hickey is injured for a lot of it. You can''t afford to have one good ruck on your list if you are going for a flag. Yes you can do the trading in a ruckman option that has been used by teams challenging for a flag - Geelong did well with Ottens. But the other way to do is the way we are. We have the two guys on our list now, locked in. We don't have to cross our fingers and hope someone pops up at the right time - sometimes just a journeyman or recently retired players past their best. And we wouldn't need to trade away our highest pick at that time that we want to use to rejuvenate our list and keep our window open. Gardiner and King did a pretty good job but both were past their prime. We will have two rucks in their prime, who will have worked for years with our team especially our midfield. Thats an advantage.

It can refresh a team to have a new ruck come in and be competing for those ruck spots. You want that sense of hunger bubbling away. Hawthorn do it so well. If Ceglar comes into Hawks seniors he will be absolutely desperate to make it to the premiership dias after missing out and provide freshness and something different.

4 or 5 GF's in an era. Not many sides do that. Our club never does that. I would be hoping for 2 and hopefully winning one. As for your statement about Bruce going in the ruck well that may suggest that has worked all year because we made a GF. I would suggest if Hickey is our forward that set up will never make a GF. See you can do anything with words. And no you cant only have one good ruckman on your list but if only one are playing because the other isn't good enough in another position that other one wont want to stay. And Gardiner and King played off the bench even though you say it never happens. It did when they played and you acknowledged that wont happen in todays footy.

I really want Hickey to make it as a forward but I have my doubts. We know Longer just cant mark the ball to ever be a forward and is way to slow as well. Lets hope I'm wrong.

[magnifisaint]

Rix rox rux

[samoht]

Impact of hitouts?

Big picture:
There are 300 - 400 possessions per game on average and on average a side may end up with 12 goals.

Out of the 40 clearances you get on a good day (that's only 1/10th the total possessions - see above) ....most of them are probably due to the ability of the clearance players/midfielders - not the pinpoint accuracy of the hitouts - or the supreme dominance of one ruckman over the other.

The best clearance sides may average 40 clearances and the worst clearance sides 35 clearances --- probably only 5 clearances separate the AFL teams.
So it's not such a big deal - and a nil all draw, basically!

And...after taking into account (and discounting) a few exceptional games over the years - where clearances have led to 4 or 5 goals - just as we can have exceptional games where full forwards have kicked 12 goals plus. This is not the norm.

The fact is not many clearances lead to goals --- let's say in a good game there are 40 clearances and 12 centre break clearances - you might get 1 goal out of all those clearances and it's probably balanced by a few stray hitouts that end up handing a goal to the opposition, the other way. Same goes for the other side. A nil-all-draw, as I mentioned.

So ruckmen who can contribute by gathering 15 or 20 possessions around the ground week in/week out, and who take important saving marks during a game and who kick 15 goals plus/year off their own boot -- are more important - in my humble opinion, anyway.

[ripplug66]

I like.

[BigMart]

Ask Allan Richardson or Ross Lyon about the importance of a competitive or better ruckman. And how important winning stoppage is... It not just about winning taps, it's about nullify in the oppositions hit out to advantage. Then your stoppage set up can have an offensive or neutral starting position... As you get a split second advantage. If you are reading defensively you are at a disadvantage.

Played about 300 games as a midfielder, and at any level ... State league, suburban, ammos, country or super rules it made no difference. Having the superior ruckman was a huge advantage.
I've been a part of a midfield with a 206cm giant and we won 7 or more out of 10 centre clearances.
That being said, ineffective taps are meaningless and a meaningless stat. Like any ineffective possession

[ripplug66]

Ask Allan Richardson or Ross Lyon about the importance of a competitive or better ruckman. And how important winning stoppage is... It not just about winning taps, it's about nullify in the oppositions hit out to advantage. Then your stoppage set up can have an offensive or neutral starting position... As you get a split second advantage. If you are reading defensively you are at a disadvantage.

Played about 300 games as a midfielder, and at any level ... State league, suburban, ammos, country or super rules it made no difference. Having the superior ruckman was a huge advantage.
I've been a part of a midfield with a 206cm giant and we won 7 or more out of 10 centre clearances.
That being said, ineffective taps are meaningless and a meaningless stat. Like any ineffective possession

The problem with that is it sometimes equates to ladder position and sometimes doesn't. WCE got the most last year and Freo the second most but Sydney were down the bottom and the Hawks weren't great. You say Longer does well but we were 13th. Hardly well I would think. I have umpired over 300 games, not relevant but just chucked it in, and see good and poor ruckmen but in the end its the mids who win the ball even if the stats show the ruckman hit it to advantage. All that means is it is a 51% advantage compared to a 49% disadvantage. Obviously the ones that go down the throat of a player are better than the 51% advantage but there is no stat for going down the throat of a player.

I find the most useful stat in the game is who is leading when the final siren rings. I reckon that equates to about a 99% winning ratio.

[Bluthy]

REPLY TO RIPPLUGGER:

YOU: 4 or 5 GF's in an era. Not many sides do that.
RETORT: Brisbane, Geelong, Hawks, Sydney. Clear pattern recognised of sustained success with multiple grannies leading to multi-flags. Gold plate standard to aim for

YOU: Our club never does that.
RETORT: Negativity. Basing the future off the past. Small minded.

YOU: I would be hoping for 2 and hopefully winning one.
RETORT: Aim high. You will almost always end up lower than where you aimed but higher than if you aimed low.

YOU: As for your statement about Bruce going in the ruck well that may suggest that has worked all year because we made a GF.
RETORT: Schneider and McQualter helped us make a grand final. Chinks in your armour get found out on GF day - the most intense game of the year. We want no chinks - NO CHINKS!

YOU: I would suggest if Hickey is our forward that set up will never make a GF.
RETORT: Prediction noted

YOU: See you can do anything with words.
RETORT:

YOU: And no you cant only have one good ruckman on your list but if only one are playing because the other isn't good enough in another position that other one wont want to stay.
RETORT: Generalistion that often does not apply. Hawthorn keep their ruckmen despite playing a lot of VFL. Need to be wanted somewhere else to be traded. Often happy knowing their time will come (form, retirement, injuries). Players want to be at clubs with a shot at a premiership.

YOU: And Gardiner and King played off the bench even though you say it never happens. It did when they played and you acknowledged that wont happen in todays footy.
RETORT: Five years ago. I don't know any current examples where two rucks swap off the bench. Bringing up past argument to win this argument. Loses you this argument. Internet rule.

YOU: I really want Hickey to make it as a forward but I have my doubts.
RETORT: The future is unknown. Doesn't mean you don't try shaping it. Players change, surprise you. Belief is important. Richo seems good at installing belief.

YOU: We know Longer just cant mark the ball to ever be a forward and is way to slow as well. Lets hope I'm wrong.
RETORT: "Can't ever be a forward" is cementing something that may change. Longer still youngish for ruck. Needs increased fitness and strength to get limbs coordinated properly. Hold out hope for Longer can be better around the ground. No cement yet.

END RETORT TO RIPPLUGGER

[Bluthy]

Impact of hitouts?

Big picture:
There are 300 - 400 possessions per game on average and on average a side may end up with 12 goals.

Out of the 40 clearances you get on a good day (that's only 1/10th the total possessions - see above) ....most of them are probably due to the ability of the clearance players/midfielders - not the pinpoint accuracy of the hitouts - or the supreme dominance of one ruckman over the other.

The best clearance sides may average 40 clearances and the worst clearance sides 35 clearances --- probably only 5 clearances separate the AFL teams.
So it's not such a big deal - and a nil all draw, basically!

And...after taking into account (and discounting) a few exceptional games over the years - where clearances have led to 4 or 5 goals - just as we can have exceptional games where full forwards have kicked 12 goals plus. This is not the norm.

The fact is not many clearances lead to goals --- let's say in a good game there are 40 clearances and 12 centre break clearances - you might get 1 goal out of all those clearances and it's probably balanced by a few stray hitouts that end up handing a goal to the opposition, the other way. Same goes for the other side. A nil-all-draw, as I mentioned.

So ruckmen who can contribute by gathering 15 or 20 possessions around the ground week in/week out, and who take important saving marks during a game and who kick 15 goals plus/year off their own boot -- are more important - in my humble opinion, anyway.

So basically the Grant Thomas argument. I'm sure Lenny, Ball and Dal loved having Blakey and Rix as powerhouses in the engine room.

I think you're over simplifying the hit-outs thing. IF you can get any advantage, even just the ball going your way, then in a grannie when its so damn hard to win the hard footy and you have two brilliant, huge bodied midfields going head to head, that matters. And having a big unit who can use his body to shepard, block, crunch, create space, show some aggro, hurt the oppo ruck and play unsocial footy is again so useful in GF's where its so hard to get any space. It's why coaches love the big guys on the last day in September - rucks and power forwards don't get any smaller when bodies begin to wilt.

Obviuosly you have to weigh up what you are getting in ruck contests with what they can deliver around the ground. I still think both Longer and Hickey haven't shown close to their best around the ground yet. Hopefully we'll see a bit more this year.

[ripplug66]

Couldn't be bothered with most of it. I will just say this.

What? What teams plays a ruckmen on the bench for an extended period?- so you are talking about each ruck playing 50% of the game on the bench (or maybe Longer playing 30% of the game on the bench?) when you talk about "two ruckmen"?! That would never happen. Big guys tend to rest forward as they have in footy for ever. You would never have a player off for extended periods unless injured

[borderbarry]

Back in the distant past before interchanges, you had two ruckmen, two ruck rovers, and two rovers, all of whom never left the ground unless injury put them out for the rest of the game. The rover always rested in the forward pocket, hence small back pocket players, and the ruck or ruck rover in the other forward pocket, and the other player in the back pocket, on the resting ruckman. This system worked for years and years. Nothing to stop from working again.

[st.byron]

Back in the distant past before interchanges, you had two ruckmen, two ruck rovers, and two rovers, all of whom never left the ground unless injury put them out for the rest of the game. The rover always rested in the forward pocket, hence small back pocket players, and the ruck or ruck rover in the other forward pocket, and the other player in the back pocket, on the resting ruckman. This system worked for years and years. Nothing to stop from working again.

Barry, I know the set-up you're talking about but footy is nothing like this any more. There is no resting as far as I can see. If you're on the ground, there is no rest. The only place to rest is on the interchange bench.

[st.byron]

Back in the distant past before interchanges, you had two ruckmen, two ruck rovers, and two rovers, all of whom never left the ground unless injury put them out for the rest of the game. The rover always rested in the forward pocket, hence small back pocket players, and the ruck or ruck rover in the other forward pocket, and the other player in the back pocket, on the resting ruckman. This system worked for years and years. Nothing to stop from working again.

Barry, I know the set-up you're talking about but footy is nothing like this any more. There is no resting as far as I can see. If you're on the ground, there is no rest. The only place to rest is on the interchange bench.

[CQ SAINT]

Our 2 best ruckman are Longer and Holmes. Of our ruckman at present, Hickey is our best follower, our best tall forward/ruck and the most natural footballer. I predict that if we do make a Grand final in the next 3 years only one of Hickey or Longer will be in that squad. I hope that when Roo retires we will pursue the best tall forward/ruck available no matter what the cost and trade Hickey. I predict Longer will improve dramatically around the ground this year and will win 60-70% of the taps he competes for. Here's hoping.

[borderbarry]

Re Jason Holmes, he has a spectacular leap and already is probably our number one ruckman for hit outs. However he had many other shortcomings as he showed in the last three games last year, mainly in his marking. Does anyone knoe if he has shown any signs of improvement in this pre season?