Carlisle ban?

[prwilkinson]

Exactly. Morals seems to apply when it suits. The argument of trusting the club is because for many many years the clubs have done the right things by the players. There was no history of PEDS so why would anyone think it would start in 2012 and unlike an individual who pick their own coach footballers cant even pick their own club. The whole game is built on trust. Just about every former player has said we just always trusted the club when taking things. Like I said because there was no history why wouldn't you. Who expected anyone to go rogue. To me its a hindsight comment to say you shouldn't trust what you are given. Of course players now wont justrust the club because no there is a history of PEDS. You either think 34 players are stupid or 34 cheated. If you think they cheated then your morals would suggest we must pay Carlisle out and have nothing to do with the club. If they are dumb its surprising that there are that many dumb people in one club. I know Jobe isn't popular for some reason on here but he doesn't strike me as dumb but he does come from a family where his dad would have taken anything the club gave him without question. It would have ingrained. Ive seen it far to many times to know it doesn't happen. I saw it for 15 years where players had no idea what they were taking. Do you think a player when he hurts himself in a game asks what they are about to be given to feel better. They may now but I would suggest never previously. It was about trust.

I can see that they may have trusted the club in good faith at the start of the regime. Especially if it was presented to them by their club as legal, cutting edge and giving them an advantage over their opponents. I can accept their good faith up to that point. But why then did all of them - all of them to a man - fail to disclose the supplements they were receiving when they were drug tested? Even though they'd all received anti-doping training. Not one of them happened to mention their injection program.
I think they were stupid and deliberately deceptive. Both.

Very well said. Unless someone from the club forged the player's forms after they'd completed them. Not one player had these injections on their forms.

Will WADA (or C.A.S) now also take action against the Essendon Football Club? Only 2 drug breaches need to occur at any sporting organisation for WADA to investigate, potentially ban or punish them. The AFL might just save their skin on that one given they've already worn a big punishment.

[st.byron]

So you must be hoping we pay out Carlisle who was deliberately deceptive? If these players knowingly cheated and then ASADA came on and there was a real chance they could have taken a 4 to 6 week penalty then why wouldn't you if you did it deliberately? They may be stupid but not that stupid. Common sense suggests you would take especially when a president of a footy club who is a lawyer says you should take. My guess is they didn't take because they thought they were innocent so why should they admit guilt.

I'm not saying they shouldn't have received a penalty but I'm going with just trusting the club. It makes more sense than cheating and taking a bugger all penalty when you knew you cheated.

Yep they trusted the club. And they were stupid to do so. But why did they uniformly fail to declare their injections? Why is that so? The only plausible explanation is that they agreed as a group to say nothing. That's deception. That's cheating. They have done so on the advice of Dank and Robinson and trusted that advice - but even so - they are culpable for their choices.

I don't think they set out to be drug cheats and they probably believed what they were taking was legal.

Re Carlisle - nope I don't think he should be cut adrift. They should all have the chance to resurrect their careers. What should happen though is that Hird and the EFC management of the time should be further held to account.

[skeptic]

Could you argue that they acted on the advice that the legal team of the club gave them...

I would have that

[ripplug66]

So you must be hoping we pay out Carlisle who was deliberately deceptive? If these players knowingly cheated and then ASADA came on and there was a real chance they could have taken a 4 to 6 week penalty then why wouldn't you if you did it deliberately? They may be stupid but not that stupid. Common sense suggests you would take especially when a president of a footy club who is a lawyer says you should take. My guess is they didn't take because they thought they were innocent so why should they admit guilt.

I'm not saying they shouldn't have received a penalty but I'm going with just trusting the club. It makes more sense than cheating and taking a bugger all penalty when you knew you cheated.

Yep they trusted the club. And they were stupid to do so. But why did they uniformly fail to declare their injections? Why is that so? The only plausible explanation is that they agreed as a group to say nothing. That's deception. That's cheating. They have done so on the advice of Dank and Robinson and trusted that advice - but even so - they are culpable for their choices.

I don't think they set out to be drug cheats and they probably believed what they were taking was legal.

Re Carlisle - nope I don't think he should be cut adrift. They should all have the chance to resurrect their careers. What should happen though is that Hird and the EFC management of the time should be further held to account.

It has been explained they did that because they were told to keep in house and a secret. Its again showing that players 4 years ago did exactly what the club wanted and yes they were stupid to do it but so was about 600 other players in the AFL I would guess. The problem was the other clubs weren't giving them PEDS but that was just pure luck that those players ended up at a non cheating club. Just about any player from any club would have done the same. And if I thought they deliberately cheated I wouldn't want anything to do with that player. Leave them to stay at the club that stuffed up their careers or piss them off. I don't believe that to be the case.

[st.byron]

Could you argue that they acted on the advice that the legal team of the club gave them...

I would have that

After the self reporting of the supplements regime - yes.

During the regime - whilst they were actually being drug tested and failing to disclose the injection program - no.

[ripplug66]

Could you argue that they acted on the advice that the legal team of the club gave them...

I would have that

After the self reporting of the supplements regime - yes.

During the regime - whilst they were actually being drug tested and failing to disclose the injection program - no.

So how can you say they thought the stuff they were taking was legal? Surely if they thought it was legal they would mention it. I think they thought it was legal but didn't mention it because they listened to the club as everyone did back then.

[Bluthy]

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/t ... 31270007c5

St Kilda recruit Jake Carlisle is not permitted to train at his new club or under its guidance, but Saints chief executive Matt Finnis seemed not to be aware of this yesterday.
“We are still dealing with the AFL, but Jake will definitely have a program that will have him ready for pre-season ‘17,” he said on Twitter.

Jesus Finnis should be careful. The last thing we need now it to have the backdate cancelled. Although the way I read the below means the club can't be actively feeding a training regime across to Jake in real time. But if the club has any brains they have already provided Jake with computer docs that he has copied into his own vanilla files, with a full training plan for his time out. Then Jake can just say this is the training he himself has chosen to do.

In terms of training regimens, the club is not allowed to guide the players in any way.
“Coaches and fitness staff can’t prepare anything … they can’t run any type of training session,” an AFL spokesman said yesterday.
“If the player goes and trains by himself, prepares his own or the group of banned players all met (and trained) they can do that, but they cannot have any direction from coaching staff or club staff.”

But he can attend games as a spectator. So weird.

[st.byron]

It has been explained they did that because they were told to keep in house and a secret. Its again showing that players 4 years ago did exactly what the club wanted and yes they were stupid to do it but so was about 600 other players in the AFL I would guess. The problem was the other clubs weren't giving them PEDS but that was just pure luck that those players ended up at a non cheating club. Just about any player from any club would have done the same.

The fact that they blindly followed the club's direction is no excuse. There comes a point where personal responsibility and culpability kick in. And in the case of pro athletes, that's before you stick the needle in. They may not have known what they were taking was illegal, but to not ask any questions when they were told to keep it secret???? To not declare that there was an extensive injection regime when they were specifically asked to by drug testers and to uniformly keep it secret???

I agree with you RP66 that there was probably a collective consciousness among them of trusting the club. Maybe a grey area of some players feeling something wasn't right but going along with the collective. But for none of them, not one, to declare their injection regime. That smells of organised deception. At the very least of "turning their heads the other way".

That is, IMO, well over the line of personal culpability. No way should they be able to throw their hands up and say, "we're innocent, we were only doing what we were told", which is the default message of those who regard the players as victims. Very bad analogy and on a totally different scale I know, but as I can't think of another right now - that's what a lot of Nazi officers prosecuted for war crimes said. "we were only doing what we were told". It's not a valid excuse when what was being done was illegal. And the players were supporting that illegality by their secrecy.

Surely, the very fact that they were told to keep it a secret would smell a little bit to them. And none of them bothered to do any research for themselves about Thymosin. They may not have known clearly that what was happening was illegal and that none of them questioned it could also be read in support of your argument that they were just trusting the club. But it can also be read as deliberate deception and they deserve to be punished.

I think I understand your argument about them trusting the club, but I don't regard it as an excuse at all, nor do I think it matters that players from other clubs would have done the same. You can't know that and these are the players who did it, not those at another club.

[st.byron]

Could you argue that they acted on the advice that the legal team of the club gave them...

I would have that

After the self reporting of the supplements regime - yes.

During the regime - whilst they were actually being drug tested and failing to disclose the injection program - no.

So how can you say they thought the stuff they were taking was legal? Surely if they thought it was legal they would mention it. I think they thought it was legal but didn't mention it because they listened to the club as everyone did back then.

They would have thought it was legal because the club told them so. Dank / Robinson / Hird / Thomson probably gave them assurances and they all signed consent forms.
But what transpired after that would surely have made even the most trusting person suspicious. And to not mention it to drug tester because the club told them not to. That's just an abdication of personal responsibility. "We know we're supposed to declare this, but because the club told us not to, we wont". Nup. Cuts no ice with me.

[st.byron]

[And if I thought they deliberately cheated I wouldn't want anything to do with that player. Leave them to stay at the club that stuffed up their careers or piss them off. I don't believe that to be the case.

I don't think they set out to be drug cheats and that's why I think it's OK for them to come back. But they didn't take any steps to ensure they weren't being drug cheats and they blindly chose not to declare what was happening. They deserve to be punished and deserve a chance to play again. Contrast that with Armstrong for example, who set out to cheat from the get go.

[ripplug66]

It has been explained they did that because they were told to keep in house and a secret. Its again showing that players 4 years ago did exactly what the club wanted and yes they were stupid to do it but so was about 600 other players in the AFL I would guess. The problem was the other clubs weren't giving them PEDS but that was just pure luck that those players ended up at a non cheating club. Just about any player from any club would have done the same.

The fact that they blindly followed the club's direction is no excuse. There comes a point where personal responsibility and culpability kick in. And in the case of pro athletes, that's before you stick the needle in. They may not have known what they were taking was illegal, but to not ask any questions when they were told to keep it secret???? To not declare that there was an extensive injection regime when they were specifically asked to by drug testers and to uniformly keep it secret???

I agree with you RP66 that there was probably a collective consciousness among them of trusting the club. Maybe a grey area of some players feeling something wasn't right but going along with the collective. But for none of them, not one, to declare their injection regime. That smells of organised deception. At the very least of "turning their heads the other way".

That is, IMO, well over the line of personal culpability. No way should they be able to throw their hands up and say, "we're innocent, we were only doing what we were told", which is the default message of those who regard the players as victims. Very bad analogy and on a totally different scale I know, but as I can't think of another right now - that's what a lot of Nazi officers prosecuted for war crimes said. "we were only doing what we were told". It's not a valid excuse when what was being done was illegal. And the players were supporting that illegality by their secrecy.

Surely, the very fact that they were told to keep it a secret would smell a little bit to them. And none of them bothered to do any research for themselves about Thymosin. They may not have known clearly that what was happening was illegal and that none of them questioned it could also be read in support of your argument that they were just trusting the club. But it can also be read as deliberate deception and they deserve to be punished.

I think I understand your argument about them trusting the club, but I don't regard it as an excuse at all, nor do I think it matters that players from other clubs would have done the same. You can't know that and these are the players who did it, not those at another club.

Didn't say it was an excuse that should get them off. I think it makes more sense than they deliberately cheated because if that was the case then would bargain when you knew the gig was up. And yes I wouldn't know for sure what others players would do but just about every ex player I have heard has said they would have done the same. I also have seen many players take stuff without a clue was it the stuff. That's a 2 and 2 and get 4 I reckon.


I just want to get one thing straight. Do you think the players thought they were taking PEDS or not? And why do you think they didnt mention to ASADA what they were taking?

[perfectionist]

.. Do you think the players thought they were taking PEDS or not?

That's obvious, even a complete idiot knows that. The issue for them was whether they would be caught. The same has applied to a number of other clubs over the years. The most obvious being WCE in the period 1990-1995 and the Magpies 2008-2011. Spot the common factor. Players just don't grow arms the size of legs due to "exercises". The thing about drugs is that they don't last forever. There is an inevitable big break down. Then again, if you have won one or two flags - who cares?

[ripplug66]

.. Do you think the players thought they were taking PEDS or not?

That's obvious, even a complete idiot knows that. The issue for them was whether they would be caught. The same has applied to a number of other clubs over the years. The most obvious being WCE in the period 1990-1995 and the Magpies 2008-2011. Spot the common factor. Players just don't grow arms the size of legs due to "exercises". The thing about drugs is that they don't last forever. There is an inevitable big break down. Then again, if you have won one or two flags - who cares?

No it isn't obvious at all. If it was that obvious why wouldn't the 2 WB players take a plea when advised by their president who happens to be a lawyer when they knew ASADA was on to them. They may have got about 4 weeks when they knew the penalty was 2 years. Any fool would take if you knew you deliberately cheated. Without being rude what you say isn't common sense.

Cant think of to many pies players who suddenly got bigger either and I refuse to believe 34 players decided to cheat all at once. You can, I wont. Obviously you don't want that cheat Carlisle anywhere near our club next season. People do look at life differently though. Some look for the worst unless proven otherwise and some look for the best unless proven otherwise. I like the way I look at people.

[magnifisaint]

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/t ... 31270007c5

St Kilda recruit Jake Carlisle is not permitted to train at his new club or under its guidance, but Saints chief executive Matt Finnis seemed not to be aware of this yesterday.
“We are still dealing with the AFL, but Jake will definitely have a program that will have him ready for pre-season ‘17,” he said on Twitter.

Jesus Finnis should be careful. The last thing we need now it to have the backdate cancelled. Although the way I read the below means the club can't be actively feeding a training regime across to Jake in real time. But if the club has any brains they have already provided Jake with computer docs that he has copied into his own vanilla files, with a full training plan for his time out. Then Jake can just say this is the training he himself has chosen to do.

In terms of training regimens, the club is not allowed to guide the players in any way.
“Coaches and fitness staff can’t prepare anything … they can’t run any type of training session,” an AFL spokesman said yesterday.
“If the player goes and trains by himself, prepares his own or the group of banned players all met (and trained) they can do that, but they cannot have any direction from coaching staff or club staff.”

But he can attend games as a spectator. So weird.

Maybe they will hire a minder/personal trainer to map a fitness regime/look after him for the next 12 months. If not then I can't seeing him getting thru this on his own.

[borderbarry]

Here is a thought. Because of the punishment issued, Essendon are almost certainly going to finish last this season. because of the circumstances, should they receive the number one draft pick?

[st.byron]

Didn't say it was an excuse that should get them off. I think it makes more sense than they deliberately cheated because if that was the case then would bargain when you knew the gig was up. And yes I wouldn't know for sure what others players would do but just about every ex player I have heard has said they would have done the same. I also have seen many players take stuff without a clue was it the stuff. That's a 2 and 2 and get 4 I reckon.

I just want to get one thing straight. Do you think the players thought they were taking PEDS or not? And why do you think they didnt mention to ASADA what they were taking?

I doubt very much they knew exactly what they were taking. Be it a PED or something else. Some may have asked, but it appears their lack of curiosity was one of the nails in their coffin with CAS.

I do reckon they knew or suspected something dodgy was going on. Why else would they uniformly to a man 'forget' to disclose the injection program to ASADA testers? If they were totally confident that everything was above board and legal, why make a unified effort to hide it?

I noticed Lovett-Murray bleating about the decision today. Tweeting that they're not drug cheats. Nathan, you took a banned substance. Numerous times. End of story.

[saintsRrising]

Maybe they will hire a minder/personal trainer to map a fitness regime/look after him for the next 12 months. If not then I can't seeing him getting thru this on his own.

Under present rules unless there is some special exemption the Saints cannot do that.

Saad's training was supervised by an ex-teamate (non-Stkilda).

[ripplug66]

Didn't say it was an excuse that should get them off. I think it makes more sense than they deliberately cheated because if that was the case then would bargain when you knew the gig was up. And yes I wouldn't know for sure what others players would do but just about every ex player I have heard has said they would have done the same. I also have seen many players take stuff without a clue was it the stuff. That's a 2 and 2 and get 4 I reckon.

I just want to get one thing straight. Do you think the players thought they were taking PEDS or not? And why do you think they didnt mention to ASADA what they were taking?

I doubt very much they knew exactly what they were taking. Be it a PED or something else. Some may have asked, but it appears their lack of curiosity was one of the nails in their coffin with CAS.

I do reckon they knew or suspected something dodgy was going on. Why else would they uniformly to a man 'forget' to disclose the injection program to ASADA testers? If they were totally confident that everything was above board and legal, why make a unified effort to hide it?

I noticed Lovett-Murray bleating about the decision today. Tweeting that they're not drug cheats. Nathan, you took a banned substance. Numerous times. End of story.

And as I said to perfectionist if that is the case it makes no sense that they didn't plea which there is no doubt they could have when they knew the gig was up. The WB players even had a president who was a lawyer who suggested they do that. Its just common sense that you would take an offer if you are pretty sure you took something that will get you 2 years but can get out of it for maybe 4 to 6 weeks. Cronulla did and ive seen nothing to suggest NRL players are any smarter than AFL players. Surely they didn't try to plea because they thought they were totally innocent. Its the only thing that makes sense.

And I agree with Lovett murray that they aren't drug cheats. The club are the cheats. The players take the penalty. Those people on here who believe the players knew or agreed to this surely don't think they can then sue the club. Cant have it both ways. That's why its funny to read posts on here. A lot of people want to blame the club only but seem happy the players are suspended. Others want to blame the players but also want them to sue. Then there are others who blame both. I stand on its only the clubs fault so if the players want to sue then they have every right. And just because I think the reason they took the PEDS was because of the club that doesn't mean I think they shouldn't have got a penalty. I just think it should have been reduced. I was wrong. I can live with that. Not sure the players can.

[bigred]

I really think that this puts Jake's well publicized comment "This club is Fcuked" into context.

If only a few players were prepared to actually throw the club under the bus instead of towing the company line that would end up being their undoing.

[The OtherThommo]

Didn't say it was an excuse that should get them off. I think it makes more sense than they deliberately cheated because if that was the case then would bargain when you knew the gig was up. And yes I wouldn't know for sure what others players would do but just about every ex player I have heard has said they would have done the same. I also have seen many players take stuff without a clue was it the stuff. That's a 2 and 2 and get 4 I reckon.

I just want to get one thing straight. Do you think the players thought they were taking PEDS or not? And why do you think they didnt mention to ASADA what they were taking?

I doubt very much they knew exactly what they were taking. Be it a PED or something else. Some may have asked, but it appears their lack of curiosity was one of the nails in their coffin with CAS.

I do reckon they knew or suspected something dodgy was going on. Why else would they uniformly to a man 'forget' to disclose the injection program to ASADA testers? If they were totally confident that everything was above board and legal, why make a unified effort to hide it?

I noticed Lovett-Murray bleating about the decision today. Tweeting that they're not drug cheats. Nathan, you took a banned substance. Numerous times. End of story.

"In the Court of Arbitration for Sport judgment, they were found to have tried to cover their tracks, which somewhat mutes the defence that they were misled lambs. "You list the things you think you need to list," former ruckman David Hille​ evidently told the hearing."

http://www.smh.com.au/afl/afl-news/esse ... =text-only

Can't "think" unless you're awake, ergo the decision was a conscious one for each individual.

And, as Hille explained, those decisions were based on a "need".

Not hard to see why the CAS concluded as they did, is it? They knew, or suspected, enough to perceive their need to be to make sure the ASADA testers couldn't work out what to test them for.

The reason those interviews precede any tests is because the tests are usually very substance specific. Testers can't just withdraw blood and/or get 'em to pee in a cup, whack the sample(s) into a big shiny machine, push a button and get results on every potential PED or banned substance that might be present. If they'd answered honestly and thoroughly, the ASADA testers would have referred to the data supplied by WADA on what "Thymosin" might be, seen Thymosin Beta - 4 listed as a possibility, noted it was banned, and specifically tested for TB-4, if local testing capability was available or, if not, sent it to Germany to be tested, where it would have been run through the full gamut, and had the samples retained for retesting as the test capability improved.

Oh, they were complicit alright, and so found the CAS, which largely drove the CAS decision to reject No Significant Fault.

It is just not reasonable to believe all of 'em sung from the same hymn book and 'neglected' to mention 1 drug they'd received by injection. And, that stands up because when they were interviewed in '13 a number of them admitted to being injected with "Thymosin", or seeing vials labelled "Thymosin" in Dank's possession.

[saintspremiers]

I really think that this puts Jake's well publicized comment "This club is Fcuked" into context.

If only a few players were prepared to actually throw the club under the bus instead of towing the company line that would end up being their undoing.

But had the 12 remaining all walked, Essendon would've had a truck load of first round picks/other players and it would've been the other clubs problems that got the drugged players

[The OtherThommo]

Didn't say it was an excuse that should get them off. I think it makes more sense than they deliberately cheated because if that was the case then would bargain when you knew the gig was up. And yes I wouldn't know for sure what others players would do but just about every ex player I have heard has said they would have done the same. I also have seen many players take stuff without a clue was it the stuff. That's a 2 and 2 and get 4 I reckon.

I just want to get one thing straight. Do you think the players thought they were taking PEDS or not? And why do you think they didnt mention to ASADA what they were taking?

I doubt very much they knew exactly what they were taking. Be it a PED or something else. Some may have asked, but it appears their lack of curiosity was one of the nails in their coffin with CAS.

I do reckon they knew or suspected something dodgy was going on. Why else would they uniformly to a man 'forget' to disclose the injection program to ASADA testers? If they were totally confident that everything was above board and legal, why make a unified effort to hide it?

I noticed Lovett-Murray bleating about the decision today. Tweeting that they're not drug cheats. Nathan, you took a banned substance. Numerous times. End of story.

And as I said to perfectionist if that is the case it makes no sense that they didn't plea which there is no doubt they could have when they knew the gig was up. The WB players even had a president who was a lawyer who suggested they do that. Its just common sense that you would take an offer if you are pretty sure you took something that will get you 2 years but can get out of it for maybe 4 to 6 weeks. Cronulla did and ive seen nothing to suggest NRL players are any smarter than AFL players. Surely they didn't try to plea because they thought they were totally innocent. Its the only thing that makes sense.

And I agree with Lovett murray that they aren't drug cheats. The club are the cheats. The players take the penalty. Those people on here who believe the players knew or agreed to this surely don't think they can then sue the club. Cant have it both ways. That's why its funny to read posts on here. A lot of people want to blame the club only but seem happy the players are suspended. Others want to blame the players but also want them to sue. Then there are others who blame both. I stand on its only the clubs fault so if the players want to sue then they have every right. And just because I think the reason they took the PEDS was because of the club that doesn't mean I think they shouldn't have got a penalty. I just think it should have been reduced. I was wrong. I can live with that. Not sure the players can.

Ah, but, you can "have it both ways" - depends on which court you're in.

The CAS found them to be, in effect, complicit. If civil proceedings were to concur, that might translate to them being seen as having contributed to their own downfall, but it doesn't necessarily mean they would be seen to have been wholly responsible, with 'others' also being adjudged to have contributed via their own failings (e.g. negligence, by design).

[saintspremiers]

Here is a thought. Because of the punishment issued, Essendon are almost certainly going to finish last this season. because of the circumstances, should they receive the number one draft pick?

The AFL have stated yes they will get number 1 pick if they finish last.

No talk of if there will be a priority pick also, but expect the delusional Bummers to bitch and moan about getting that also.

[markp]

The players knew enough to lie, over and over and over again.

Turns out what they were given was banned. However shocking and sad, of course they deserve the full whack and to be labelled drug cheats.

They didn't take the plea because they decided to continue to trust those at the club who said all along that they couldn't be pinged for this and that they would win and be cleared, and because hird made it impossible for the club to sell the idea of accepting a plea.

They can sue now because they know if the club runs with a 'you knew' defence then the club is also admitting it knew, and the ramifications of that are greater than coming to a deal.

[St Chris]

I heard (maybe on 360 the other night??) there was a confidentiality section on the "consent" forms, essentially to protect the IP of the program from other clubs. Agreements like this are commonplace, both in the AFL (gameplans etc.) and the normal working world.

Somewhere along the line, the players either decided themselves, or the club instructed, that ASADA needed to be kept in the dark as well. Cynics would say this was because they knew is wasn't compliant, while others would suggest it was just another mechanism to avoid a leak.