Luke Ball back in the fold????

[satchmo]

I am not so sure we wanted to move him on. In fact , I am sure we tried to talk him out of leaving. I am also convinced that when a trade did not happen , we hoped that he would not sook, cop it on the chin and do the right thing by the supporters and STAY.
I am also sure that he was part of draft manipulation that saw him go to Collingwood and not Melbourne, who I will never understand why they did not say "too bad Luke , we are picking you whether you like it or not"
Training at Collingwood before he was on their list, yeah he did plenty wrong by us. Perhaps he was doing it to spite Ross, but really he stuck it up his mates and all of us who had cheered him on for years. Both Ross and Luke came out of this sorry sage looking pretty grubby in my eyes.

I agree 100%. I wonder if Mrs Connolly drove a Lexus?

[BigMart]

Melbourne had every chance to select him... They had 2 picks before Collingwood

They chose not to...

Yes, he did stick it up us, fair enough... He wanted out for a reason.

Those mates he walked out on, he is still great mates with...

[ripplug66]

Melbourne had every chance to select him... They had 2 picks before Collingwood

They chose not to...

Yes, he did stick it up us, fair enough... He wanted out for a reason.

Those mates he walked out on, he is still great mates with...

Are you sure he is still great mates with them?

[SaintPav]

Always two sides to every story.

Probably decided to go to the Pies half way through 2009.

Looked disinterested during the season.

[BigMart]

Indeed he is, as is Dal, BJ and Rhys Stanley. No ill feeling whatsoever!

His defection to Collingwood was understood exactly for what it was... A player that had lost the confidence that the coach rated his ability... And wanted to go, in order to get more opportunities.

[BigMart]

Why did he look disinterested???

[SaintPav]

Why did he look disinterested???

No idea but was certainly not the Luke Ball of 2004 to 2006.

If he had been we would have nailed 2009.

Working class coach from Resevoir not a big fan of self entitled private school boys I hear

[SaintPav]

Indeed he is, as is Dal, BJ and Rhys Stanley. No ill feeling whatsoever!

His defection to Collingwood was understood exactly for what it was... A player that had lost the confidence that the coach rated his ability... And wanted to go, in order to get more opportunities.

An extremely one sided and biased view

[skeptic]

I am not so sure we wanted to move him on. In fact , I am sure we tried to talk him out of leaving. I am also convinced that when a trade did not happen , we hoped that he would not sook, cop it on the chin and do the right thing by the supporters and STAY.
I am also sure that he was part of draft manipulation that saw him go to Collingwood and not Melbourne, who I will never understand why they did not say "too bad Luke , we are picking you whether you like it or not"
Training at Collingwood before he was on their list, yeah he did plenty wrong by us. Perhaps he was doing it to spite Ross, but really he stuck it up his mates and all of us who had cheered him on for years. Both Ross and Luke came out of this sorry sage looking pretty grubby in my eyes.

Mmm, I'm inclined to disagree personally.

The way I recall it, yes he'd been dropped a few tikes in the second half of the season but the friction REPORTEDLY emerged after Ball felt that he had completed and worked on the things that he had be asked to do.

Personally, I am of the belief that the coaching team felt that he wasn't up to scratch (or what they wanted) and started playing him less, and/or less in games... And the rumour mill had it that he was told flat out that if he stayed, he would play less games the following season.

To some degree this was evidenced in the way he was used in the second half of the season, and especially in the 2nd half of the 09 Grand final but personally, I believe this account of events for the following reason...

In David Mission's book "Inside the Bubble" - he was the fitness guru at the time and was highly rated... He wrote at length about the concerns they had on Luke's ability to spread and run out games. They felt that he was shown up VS Geel at the Dome that year and felt that he would most likely be a pedestrian in the second half of most games unless it rained.

Further to that, he wrote that they believed his body was not so much stuffed but required a higher level of preparation to get him ready/right then they could realistically expect him to undertake.

That's not my opinion, that's David's.

Reading between the lines, i believe that the coaching staff didn't rate him and wanted him to leave but given that he was a strong part of the culture and was well liked by the players, they didn't want to out right sack him or appear to be forcing him out. As a result, i believe they got into his ear and non-directly told him that his opportunities would be limited moving forward.
Hence Luke read the writing on the wall and found himself in a position where he wanted to stay but knew the right thing was to go.

He got the offer he wanted from Collingwood and did what they told him to do. Personally, i don't think there was draft manipulation there... He wasn't a good player fit for Melbourne who didn't necessarily need a slow, maligned midfielder. You have to remember a whole bunch of other clubs passed on him too.

100% it was on us that we failed to get the trade done... That was our job.
How often do you see a player fail to be traded and then ultimately leave for nothing in the pre-free agency era. It happened a few times e.g. Nick Stevens but it by far the exception rather than the norm. It's clear to me that Luke had been pushed to go and wouldn't stay w/o some serious damage control being done... But Ross was not fussed if he left and was happy to let him go

[magnifisaint]

What I don't understand is how we turned him from a player who was faster than Judd in yr 12 to such a plodder. Thomas has a lot to answer for

[whiskers3614]

Misson and Lyon should have been sacked on the spot for their misuse of Ball in GF 09.
Incompetence of the highest order!
Working class coach from Reservoir still a Premiership maiden.

[Bunk_Moreland]

You people still carrying around 2009?

Let it go people. Ball played for us then didn't. Should be welcomed back if the club deems it.

Glad Dean Rice was welcomed back. Club now reaping the benefits

[asaint]

I am still " carrying around" 1997,2004,2005,2009,2010..& will continue to do so until we win one.

[saynta]

What I don't understand is how we turned him from a player who was faster than Judd in yr 12 to such a plodder. Thomas has a lot to answer for

Not as much as Lyon who bare faced lied when he stated that he just forgot to play him in the last quarter of the 2009 grandfinal.
Lyon's treatment of Ball cost us two grand finals.

[saynta]

Misson and Lyon should have been sacked on the spot for their misuse of Ball in GF 09.
Incompetence of the highest order!
Working class coach from Reservoir still a Premiership maiden.

+1

[ripplug66]

Misson and Lyon should have been sacked on the spot for their misuse of Ball in GF 09.
Incompetence of the highest order!
Working class coach from Reservoir still a Premiership maiden.

My guess is you didn't even slightly think that at the time. I notice Santya agreed with you also but people have pulled out posts from that time and all he did was praise RL. Funny what happens with some if you dare leave our club.

[skeptic]

Misson and Lyon should have been sacked on the spot for their misuse of Ball in GF 09.
Incompetence of the highest order!
Working class coach from Reservoir still a Premiership maiden.

My guess is you didn't even slightly think that at the time. I notice Santya agreed with you also but people have pulled out posts from that time and all he did was praise RL. Funny what happens with some if you dare leave our club.

Why is it relevant that they didn't think that at the time?

Most of us, myself included were heart broken and taken aback by how close we came, and how much the club was hurting. Coaches included.

After a period of time passed, and more information came out, I would argue that people's views are likely to be less emotive rather than more which seems to be the opposite of what you are arguing.

I think most people here are more than capable of separating their emotions from the facts. Most people on here have a personal dislike of Lyon, or Ball, or GT etc because of what they did either at the club, after they left, or both. Depending on who you speak to, there are varying views how just how good or bad these things were/are, and how these guys are rated now.

These views all have their various strengths and weaknesses.

The view that you consistently reiterated on this forum... Again and again to the point of nauseam seems to be that the people that dare criticise RL, especially about his coaching in the GFs, didn't criticise at the time, with the implication being that said criticism is driven emotionally because of the circumstances RE his departure.

That is emotional drivel and it's getting very boring. RL's stocks were dropping on this forum well before he left, with a significantly growing minority on this forum shaping up from the middle of 2010 onwards. Certainly I for one couldn't believe how Mini was still getting a game at that time.
There was even the odd guy like Rodger Fox who seem to strongly dislike RL even before the 09 GF.

Rehashing this stupid argument about the hindsight of supporters every time some one is critical of the 09/10 era is such a stupid waste of time and has become very tedious to sit through

[ctqs]

Didn't a number of our players meet up with him overseas to remind him they made a pact that they weren't leaving the club until they finished what they set out to do? He was paid a lot and made captain at one stage but chose not to stick around. He did what he could to put other teams off - refusing medicals and the like - thereby ensuring Collingwood could get away with offering us the likes of Sharrod Wellingham because there was no real competition for Ball's services.
People can come and go as they like. Just don't stand in the doorway blocking it for others.

[meher baba]

Re Ball: here's what I suspect happened, more or less. Ball had a very lucrative contract with us that was coming to an end. Given that his performances under Lyon had fallen from those of a star to those of a midfielder slghtly above average quality, the club was never going to be prepared to renew his contract at the same sort of level of remuneration.

Collingwood, who had a pacy midfield but not a lot of grunt, could see a really good fit for his capabilities in their side. Ball's management was presumably aware of this some time before the end of the 2009 season, but Ball was perhaps still reluctant to shift clubs because of mateship, "pacts", etc. and also because, in 2009, St Kilda seemed to be closer to winning a premiership than the Pies. And also because - although it has always been hard to clarify who offered exactly what to whom - the Collingwood offer wasn't much more lucrative than that on the table from the Saints.

Then Ball started to feel at odds with Lyon and the club management. And then his treatment in the 2009 GF made him feel particularly aggrieved. And, according to Misson, he had been told that his treatment in 2010 would be likely to be more of the same: ie, you won't be a guaranteed starter, we'll just use you when it suits us.

So, I assume, Ball put it all together: less (or certainly no more) money, not much respect from Lyon and co and no guaranteed place in the starting lineup. So he jumped.

I don't blame him for going: in my interpretation of events, he wouldn't have felt that he had much choice, regardless of any "pact" he might have made.

And I certainly don't blame the club or coach for treating him as it did: that's professional football. I would have liked to see him continue to play for us, but I don't get to select the team. I also doubt that a trade was truly possible: to have missed something reasonable would have been a major stuffup. I guess that, given that we are talking the Nettlefold/Drain era, this cannot be entirely ruled out, but I suspect that all the club could have hoped to get was some relatively worthless pick that would have been even worse for the club's reputation than Ball going to the PSD. I think those in charge of the club richly deserve criticism for recruiting Lovett, but I think we can probably give them the benefit of the doubt re Ball.

Even criticising Lyon for telling untruths about his use of Ball in the GF is possibly a bit unfair: at that stage, the club was presumably still trying - at last half-heartedly - to hang on to Ball, so Lyon understandably tried to use weasel words.

That's my take on it, anyway/

[ripplug66]

Misson and Lyon should have been sacked on the spot for their misuse of Ball in GF 09.
Incompetence of the highest order!
Working class coach from Reservoir still a Premiership maiden.

My guess is you didn't even slightly think that at the time. I notice Santya agreed with you also but people have pulled out posts from that time and all he did was praise RL. Funny what happens with some if you dare leave our club.

Why is it relevant that they didn't think that at the time?

Most of us, myself included were heart broken and taken aback by how close we came, and how much the club was hurting. Coaches included.

After a period of time passed, and more information came out, I would argue that people's views are likely to be less emotive rather than more which seems to be the opposite of what you are arguing.

I think most people here are more than capable of separating their emotions from the facts. Most people on here have a personal dislike of Lyon, or Ball, or GT etc because of what they did either at the club, after they left, or both. Depending on who you speak to, there are varying views how just how good or bad these things were/are, and how these guys are rated now.

These views all have their various strengths and weaknesses.

The view that you consistently reiterated on this forum... Again and again to the point of nauseam seems to be that the people that dare criticise RL, especially about his coaching in the GFs, didn't criticise at the time, with the implication being that said criticism is driven emotionally because of the circumstances RE his departure.

That is emotional drivel and it's getting very boring. RL's stocks were dropping on this forum well before he left, with a significantly growing minority on this forum shaping up from the middle of 2010 onwards. Certainly I for one couldn't believe how Mini was still getting a game at that time.
There was even the odd guy like Rodger Fox who seem to strongly dislike RL even before the 09 GF.

Rehashing this stupid argument about the hindsight of supporters every time some one is critical of the 09/10 era is such a stupid waste of time and has become very tedious to sit through

Of course it is relevant at the time because the person who posted it said he should have been sacked at the time. Or are you actually agreeing that Misson and RL should have been sacked at the time. Imagine that. A club who never wins a flags sack coach after making the GF. Media and most supporters would think our club has officially lost all logic and brains. What a silly statement. And whilst most can separate emotion from facts there are still some who cant. And that is plain to see. And yes if you didn't critisize RL at the time of his coaching then logic suggests it is because he dared to leave or are you saying they woke up one day and realised RL coached poorly in the GF. And RL stocks were dropping on this forum because our form was dropping off a huge high.

And thanks for telling me how I should be posting and thinking. I would suggest I have little emotion on RL, its people like you and a few others who seem to have this huge emotion on RL. I will continue to post how I feel on this topic. Its strange that you don't say the others are rehashing old wounds when bringing up the topic of RL coaching poorly which some do much more than I do in replying its hindsight but then again I tried to mostly be 2 eyed on topics and posters. I bet you wish you could say the same but from the words in this post that would be a complete untruth. Quite funny though.

By the way where is your post to Whiskers saying we are sick of his bagging of RL? Of course there isn't one to him. And there is no doubt he mentions RL much more than I mention hindsight. But of course really this is your way of having a dig again. Its a waste of time and has become very tedious to sit through. Actually it isn't tedious at all because you can ignore or read in about 2 seconds. How tough is life if something that you can read in 2 seconds is tedious. I would certainly be having a look at my life if that was the case.

[saynta]

Misson and Lyon should have been sacked on the spot for their misuse of Ball in GF 09.
Incompetence of the highest order!
Working class coach from Reservoir still a Premiership maiden.

My guess is you didn't even slightly think that at the time. I notice Santya agreed with you also but people have pulled out posts from that time and all he did was praise RL. Funny what happens with some if you dare leave our club.

Why is it relevant that they didn't think that at the time?

Most of us, myself included were heart broken and taken aback by how close we came, and how much the club was hurting. Coaches included.

After a period of time passed, and more information came out, I would argue that people's views are likely to be less emotive rather than more which seems to be the opposite of what you are arguing.

I think most people here are more than capable of separating their emotions from the facts. Most people on here have a personal dislike of Lyon, or Ball, or GT etc because of what they did either at the club, after they left, or both. Depending on who you speak to, there are varying views how just how good or bad these things were/are, and how these guys are rated now.

These views all have their various strengths and weaknesses.

The view that you consistently reiterated on this forum... Again and again to the point of nauseam seems to be that the people that dare criticise RL, especially about his coaching in the GFs, didn't criticise at the time, with the implication being that said criticism is driven emotionally because of the circumstances RE his departure.

That is emotional drivel and it's getting very boring. RL's stocks were dropping on this forum well before he left, with a significantly growing minority on this forum shaping up from the middle of 2010 onwards. Certainly I for one couldn't believe how Mini was still getting a game at that time.
There was even the odd guy like Rodger Fox who seem to strongly dislike RL even before the 09 GF.

Rehashing this stupid argument about the hindsight of supporters every time some one is critical of the 09/10 era is such a stupid waste of time and has become very tedious to sit through

It certainlt is. Great post too.

[ripplug66]

Typical post. Lacks own ideas as usual.

[saynta]

Re Ball: here's what I suspect happened, more or less. Ball had a very lucrative contract with us that was coming to an end. Given that his performances under Lyon had fallen from those of a star to those of a midfielder slghtly above average quality, the club was never going to be prepared to renew his contract at the same sort of level of remuneration.

Collingwood, who had a pacy midfield but not a lot of grunt, could see a really good fit for his capabilities in their side. Ball's management was presumably aware of this some time before the end of the 2009 season, but Ball was perhaps still reluctant to shift clubs because of mateship, "pacts", etc. and also because, in 2009, St Kilda seemed to be closer to winning a premiership than the Pies. And also because - although it has always been hard to clarify who offered exactly what to whom - the Collingwood offer wasn't much more lucrative than that on the table from the Saints.

Then Ball started to feel at odds with Lyon and the club management. And then his treatment in the 2009 GF made him feel particularly aggrieved. And, according to Misson, he had been told that his treatment in 2010 would be likely to be more of the same: ie, you won't be a guaranteed starter, we'll just use you when it suits us.

So, I assume, Ball put it all together: less (or certainly no more) money, not much respect from Lyon and co and no guaranteed place in the starting lineup. So he jumped.

I don't blame him for going: in my interpretation of events, he wouldn't have felt that he had much choice, regardless of any "pact" he might have made.

And I certainly don't blame the club or coach for treating him as it did: that's professional football. I would have liked to see him continue to play for us, but I don't get to select the team. I also doubt that a trade was truly possible: to have missed something reasonable would have been a major stuffup. I guess that, given that we are talking the Nettlefold/Drain era, this cannot be entirely ruled out, but I suspect that all the club could have hoped to get was some relatively worthless pick that would have been even worse for the club's reputation than Ball going to the PSD. I think those in charge of the club richly deserve criticism for recruiting Lovett, but I think we can probably give them the benefit of the doubt re Ball.

Even criticising Lyon for telling untruths about his use of Ball in the GF is possibly a bit unfair: at that stage, the club was presumably still trying - at last half-heartedly - to hang on to Ball, so Lyon understandably tried to use weasel words.

That's my take on it, anyway/

What's the difference between outright lying and in your words using"weasel words.

If you believe that the coach simply forgot to play Ball in the final quarter, go right ahead. Feel free.

I prefer to believe he lied. It's just an outright bulls*** and stupid statement meant for the gullible.

I was shoched as well as pissedoff at the time Lyon made that statement.

I have always maintained that Lyon's handling of Ball cost us two grand finals and said so at the time. Rerpeatedly .

I have always blamed Lyon for losing us a former captain and a champion player. Never waivered from that believe, although your views have merit

As a former player he is certainly entitled to be part of the saints past players association and I personally think its great that he wants to be.

[meher baba]

saynta: There isn't much difference between weasel words and lying. But that's beside the point: the point is that, in the context of wanting to hang onto Lyon, he didn't want to say something like "I didn't put Ball on the field in the final quarter because I didn't think he was up to it in the tight contest that had developed." That's presumably why Ball wasn't played, but no coach or club manager is actually going to come out and say that about a player who they would wish to keep or trade.

At Collingwood, Ball showed that he was well and truly "up to it" in tight situations. But the other thing we will never know is the extent to which Collingwood was able to effect an improvement in him through better coaching, better injury management or...I wouldn't like to say.

[meher baba]

By the way, re Ross Lyon, I don't think anyone on this forum was ever as negative towards him as I was during 2007 and early 2008. I hated (and still hate, to some extent) what I saw as the extremely defensive and negative style of football he brought to the club, fearing that it was best suited for a postage stamp-sized ground like the SCG and that the huge physical effort it required would lead to players fading out on the big fields, especially in the big games.

I found I had to eat my words from mid-2008 to the end of 2010 when, for two and a half seasons, the team performed better than at any time I can remember. Then, due more to the increasingly dreadful list management from about 2006 onward than to anything Lyon did or didn't do, the club went into a rapid decline.

But Lyon proved me wrong (not that he would care what I thought) and showed himself to be an excellent coach. He was a bit lucky to get through the 2009 PF (when Eade almost outfoxed him) but did brilliantly in the 2009 GF and was not to blame for the team missing umpteen getable shots on goal (nor for Hawkins being incorrectly credited with a goal which effectively cost us 11 points). In 2010, Collingwood looked the better side from the start of the first GF, but Lyon rang the changes and kept us in it while the Pies missed chance after chance.

Lyon leaving us at the end of 2011 was a good thing: I don't think he is the sort of coach who is suited to a team-building role, and we were always going to be bouncing around the bottom for the next 3-4 seasons. We certainly might have chosen a better replacement than Watters, but that's not Lyon's fault.

So, once I got over my incorrect early assessment of Lyon, I could never really see the point of the Lyon-bashing that is common on this forum. But, then, I could never really understand the GT-bashing either (other than from one particular poster who is generally assumed to have a longstanding personal grudge against the man).