Sam Gilbert - Does he have a future?

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plugger66
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Re: Sam Gilbert - Does he have a future?

Post: # 1570944Post plugger66 »

skeptic wrote:I'm not having a go at your opinion... your claim that is supported by fact is what is farcical

you're implying that because Gilbert has been in a select number of games that it demonstrates his performance/presence influences whether we win

that is not a fact

Con for example has pointed out that he has played less games against teams higher on the ladder, and as matrix pointed out it doesn't show who else was/wasn't playing for us and the opposition, likelihood etc

You're misrepresenting the facts to suit your argument, which is not anymore valid than mine

This is like the Schrodinger's Cat thing is it alive or dead. We don't know whether Gilbert can again be a good player until he plays... I say it's unlikey based on his form over the last few seasons, and I'll point to Con's AFL player ratings to back that up too though it's plain obvious if you actually watch the games... you're trying twist select data to draw conclusions that don't exist.

It's farcical. I don't know why you won't admit it. Anyway, good luck with that. I hope Sam turns it around.

Are the facts farcical because it doesn't suit you? I would think so and if it was the other way around I think you would use them. At least it is some fact where as yours is complete opinion based on you don't think he will be missed. Again facts say that isn't true and those facts are over a 3 year period. And im not sure you get stats but over 3 years I think we can safely say that is a good enough sample and whilst there maybe some anomalies it would pass the survey testing.

And I watch games. I hope you also do. I first based my opinion on those games and then someone else supported my opinion with actual facts. I also have no idea whats farcical but if you mean trying to discredit actual fact then I agree. Anyway I reckon Ledger would have made it had he been given more games.

By the way I take it you never look at how many goals and points a player kicks to decide if he is an accurate kick for goal or never look at how many hit outs a ruckman gets to decide if he can hit the ball or how many marks a players takes to decide if he is a good mark?


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Re: Sam Gilbert - Does he have a future?

Post: # 1570973Post bigcarl »

This shouldn't be a thread. Of course he has a future. He's in our top five or six players when he's up and running.

Some can't forgive the occasional shoddy disposal, but his other qualities and attributes make him very valuable.

Most importantly, the coach and club rate him very highly. Thus he has a future.


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Re: Sam Gilbert - Does he have a future?

Post: # 1570975Post S.A Saint »

When up and running, he is the most important player in the backline.
Last edited by S.A Saint on Sun 09 Aug 2015 1:13pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: Sam Gilbert - Does he have a future?

Post: # 1570979Post magnifisaint »

I want to know what the consensus of this thread is. Does Sam Gilbert or Ggilber have a future?


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Re: Sam Gilbert - Does he have a future?

Post: # 1571004Post Saints43 »

S.A Saint wrote:When up and running, he is the most important player in the backline.
Which is why, when fit, he is selected in the senior team. Always. By every coach he's played under.


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Re: Sam Gilbert - Does he have a future?

Post: # 1571005Post S.A Saint »

Saints43 wrote:
S.A Saint wrote:When up and running, he is the most important player in the backline.
Which is why, when fit, he is selected in the senior team. Always. By every coach he's played under.
Need to stay on the park next and play at least 17 or so games, otherwise unfortunately its curtains


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Re: Sam Gilbert - Does he have a future?

Post: # 1571007Post Con Gorozidis »

bigcarl wrote:
Some can't forgive the occasional shoddy disposal, but his other qualities and attributes make him very valuable.
It is a bit more than occasional.
But yes he has a few years yet to play.


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Re: Sam Gilbert - Does he have a future?

Post: # 1571107Post Con Gorozidis »

I think I showed pretty comprehensively that the attempt to link Gilbo with winning games is complete nonsense.
All the data showed was that Gilbo has had a run of games versus poor teams.

GWS x 3
GC x 3
Melb x 2
Hawks x 0
Cats x 0

Notably he missed the Rd 6 WB game we won this year and played in the loss in Rd 13.


citywest

Re: Sam Gilbert - Does he have a future?

Post: # 1571110Post citywest »

Get rid of him.


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Re: Sam Gilbert - Does he have a future?

Post: # 1571195Post plugger66 »

citywest wrote:Get rid of him.

Played quite well. Con I think you are wronhg by the way regarding stats. Do you use stats to see how acute a person kicks for goal? Do you use stats to see how good a mark a player is?


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Re: Sam Gilbert - Does he have a future?

Post: # 1571213Post Con Gorozidis »

plugger66 wrote:
citywest wrote:Get rid of him.

Played quite well. Con I think you are wronhg by the way regarding stats. Do you use stats to see how acute a person kicks for goal? Do you use stats to see how good a mark a player is?
No I am right regarding stats. You were the one resting your case on flawed stats - I never commented on the stats except to debunk a ridiculous idea. The stats on win:loss are too complex to judge against an individual player - but if he plays against the Hawks or Cats then he is batting at 8/25.
AFL Inside Footy is independent and unbiased. I will take their ratings over your 'opinion.'
In any case I am not anti Gilbert. But I also dont want to exaggerate how good or influential he is either.

Top-10 B & F finishes

2012 - No
2013 - No
2014- No
2015-No

So he hasnt had a top 10 finish in the B&F in the last four seasons. Surely that is an objective measuring stick?????

NOTE that in 2012 he played ALL 22 games and still didn't make the Top 10 - So maybe I will just take the club's internal rating system over your opinion.

http://www.aflplayerratings.com.au/Rati ... am-GILBERT

2012 Trevor Barker Award Top 10

1. Lenny Hayes, 124 votes
2. Leigh Montagna, 121 votes
3. Sean Dempster, 112 votes
4. Brendon Goddard, 96 votes
5. Nick Riewoldt, 81 votes
6. Jarryn Geary, 80 votes
7. Nick Dal Santo, 79 votes
8. Sam Fisher, 69 votes
9. David Armitage, 66 votes
10. Jack Steven, 65 votes
Last edited by Con Gorozidis on Sun 09 Aug 2015 8:34pm, edited 3 times in total.


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Re: Sam Gilbert - Does he have a future?

Post: # 1571219Post skeptic »

Plugger, can you please explain to me how the stats demonstrate that when he plays, we win more games as a result of Sam Gilbert's performance?


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Re: Sam Gilbert - Does he have a future?

Post: # 1571221Post Con Gorozidis »

Plugger also explain why Inside Footy are wrong and the Saints B&F Votes are also wrong - but you of course, in your mind, are right?


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Re: Sam Gilbert - Does he have a future?

Post: # 1571224Post plugger66 »

Con Gorozidis wrote:
plugger66 wrote:
citywest wrote:Get rid of him.

Played quite well. Con I think you are wronhg by the way regarding stats. Do you use stats to see how acute a person kicks for goal? Do you use stats to see how good a mark a player is?
No I am right regarding stats. You were the one resting your case on flawed stats - I never commented on the stats except to debunk a ridiculous idea. The stats on win:loss are too complex to judge against an individual player - but if he plays against the Hawks or Cats then he is batting at 8/25.
AFL Inside Footy is independent and unbiased. I will take their ratings over your 'opinion.'
In any case I am not anti Gilbert. But I also dont want to exaggerate how good or influential he is either.

Top-10 B & F finishes

2012 - No
2013 - No
2014- No
2015-No

So he hasnt had a top 10 finish in the B&F in the last four seasons. Surely that is an objective measuring stick?????

NOTE that in 2012 he played ALL 22 games and still didn't make the Top 10 - So maybe I will just take the club's internal rating system over your opinion.

http://www.aflplayerratings.com.au/Rati ... am-GILBERT

2012 Trevor Barker Award Top 10

1. Lenny Hayes, 124 votes
2. Leigh Montagna, 121 votes
3. Sean Dempster, 112 votes
4. Brendon Goddard, 96 votes
5. Nick Riewoldt, 81 votes
6. Jarryn Geary, 80 votes
7. Nick Dal Santo, 79 votes
8. Sam Fisher, 69 votes
9. David Armitage, 66 votes
10. Jack Steven, 65 votes
Well its funny that you call my stats flawed and then try and use the last 4 years B and F to prove your point. Im pretty sure you know that it is just impossible to finish top 10 in the B and F if you miss the amount of games he has. Now that is really flawed logic. Im happy to go with 2012 but no way could you use the other years. By the way how do work out if a player is a good kick for goal? Do you use stats for that at all?


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Re: Sam Gilbert - Does he have a future?

Post: # 1571232Post plugger66 »

skeptic wrote:Plugger, can you please explain to me how the stats demonstrate that when he plays, we win more games as a result of Sam Gilbert's performance?

No. Can you explain how you work out how good a player is in accuracy when kicking for goals?


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Re: Sam Gilbert - Does he have a future?

Post: # 1571261Post skeptic »

I never claimed that I could. That's not my argument.

So you concede that your claim that the statistics back up your argument is not true.

cheers


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Re: Sam Gilbert - Does he have a future?

Post: # 1571263Post plugger66 »

skeptic wrote:I never claimed that I could. That's not my argument.

So you concede that your claim that the statistics back up your argument is not true.

cheers

No I don't but if it is that important for you to win that you make up things than fine. I still cant work out how we are ever going to know who was the most accurate kick for goal. And I thought just looking at the stats would be the easiest but obviously you cant do that anymore.


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Re: Sam Gilbert - Does he have a future?

Post: # 1571265Post skeptic »

Well then please back up your claim. You've made it so the onus on you is to prove it, not for me to disprove it.

Until you do this conversation cannot move any further


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Re: Sam Gilbert - Does he have a future?

Post: # 1571276Post plugger66 »

skeptic wrote:Well then please back up your claim. You've made it so the onus on you is to prove it, not for me to disprove it.

Until you do this conversation cannot move any further

I hope you are joking. How can I prove an opinion? At least the stats show there is a basis to that opinion. Its like me saying to you how can you prove Ledger would have been a good player if he was played more. I say Gilbert is important in the future and I also say stats show that he has played in many more wins than losses in the last 3 years. I have a question for you. What player is the most important in the future? Also how are we ever going to work out who was the best kick for goal in AFL history?


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Re: Sam Gilbert - Does he have a future?

Post: # 1571278Post Con Gorozidis »

plugger66 wrote:
skeptic wrote:Well then please back up your claim. You've made it so the onus on you is to prove it, not for me to disprove it.

Until you do this conversation cannot move any further

I hope you are joking. How can I prove an opinion? At least the stats show there is a basis to that opinion. Its like me saying to you how can you prove Ledger would have been a good player if he was played more. I say Gilbert is important in the future and I also say stats show that he has played in many more wins than losses in the last 3 years. I have a question for you. What player is the most important in the future? Also how are we ever going to work out who was the best kick for goal in AFL history?
Your double standards are quite humorous. You demand objectivity on here from everyone else but fail to deliver any yourself. You mouth of about stats, but when pressed for more analysis start pointing fingers all in the air.

Surely if a bloke hasn't had a club top 10 B&F finish for 5 years, you cannot claim they are highly influential player.

Anyway I had have enough of talking about Gilbo. He will be playing next year so we should all just get used to it.
Last edited by Con Gorozidis on Sun 09 Aug 2015 10:29pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: Sam Gilbert - Does he have a future?

Post: # 1571279Post kosifantutti »

plugger66 wrote:
skeptic wrote:Well then please back up your claim. You've made it so the onus on you is to prove it, not for me to disprove it.

Until you do this conversation cannot move any further

I hope you are joking. How can I prove an opinion? At least the stats show there is a basis to that opinion. Its like me saying to you how can you prove Ledger would have been a good player if he was played more. I say Gilbert is important in the future and I also say stats show that he has played in many more wins than losses in the last 3 years. I have a question for you. What player is the most important in the future? Also how are we ever going to work out who was the best kick for goal in AFL history?
We won 87.5% of our games with Ledger in the team.

http://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/ ... edger.html


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Re: Sam Gilbert - Does he have a future?

Post: # 1571282Post Con Gorozidis »

kosifantutti wrote:
plugger66 wrote:
skeptic wrote:Well then please back up your claim. You've made it so the onus on you is to prove it, not for me to disprove it.

Until you do this conversation cannot move any further

I hope you are joking. How can I prove an opinion? At least the stats show there is a basis to that opinion. Its like me saying to you how can you prove Ledger would have been a good player if he was played more. I say Gilbert is important in the future and I also say stats show that he has played in many more wins than losses in the last 3 years. I have a question for you. What player is the most important in the future? Also how are we ever going to work out who was the best kick for goal in AFL history?
We won 87.5% of our games with Ledger in the team.

http://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/ ... edger.html
The Ledge! What a Ledge!


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Re: Sam Gilbert - Does he have a future?

Post: # 1571283Post plugger66 »

kosifantutti wrote:
plugger66 wrote:
skeptic wrote:Well then please back up your claim. You've made it so the onus on you is to prove it, not for me to disprove it.

Until you do this conversation cannot move any further

I hope you are joking. How can I prove an opinion? At least the stats show there is a basis to that opinion. Its like me saying to you how can you prove Ledger would have been a good player if he was played more. I say Gilbert is important in the future and I also say stats show that he has played in many more wins than losses in the last 3 years. I have a question for you. What player is the most important in the future? Also how are we ever going to work out who was the best kick for goal in AFL history?
We won 87.5% of our games with Ledger in the team.

http://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/ ... edger.html

Interesting. I don't know what it has to do with this though. Kosi how would you decide who is the most accurate kick for goal in the history of the AFL? And I noticed today on both footy programs they said the Tigers had lost 11 out of 13 when Delideo hasn't played. Obviously a useless stat because they need to go into it much further. Another usless stat is that labor are leading 54 to 46 in a poll because only about 3000 people are asked when about 16 million vote.


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Re: Sam Gilbert - Does he have a future?

Post: # 1571287Post kosifantutti »

We all know Matthew Capuano was the most accurate kick for goal. At least while he was at St Kilda.


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Re: Sam Gilbert - Does he have a future?

Post: # 1571289Post plugger66 »

kosifantutti wrote:We all know Matthew Capuano was the most accurate kick for goal. At least while he was at St Kilda.

How do we know that. I cant remember that.


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