Our Shrinking Membership/Following

[SainterSan]

G'day all! A simple question: what's happening to the size of our club? We used to be a middle power in terms of membership and popularity, up there with Geelong and Hawthorn, but this year for the very first time we have the lowest membership tally (32,000 members) of all the Victorian clubs. And our game attendances average only 27,000 per game. We are even smaller than minnows like the Bulldogs (35,000 members) and North Melbourne (41,000 members). I'm old enough to remember the 1971 Grand Final, when St Kilda was clearly the bigger club compared to Hawthorn but these days they have well over twice the number of members (73,000 members). There is no way that Hawthorn is that much bigger than St Kilda. Can anyone explain this popularity slippage and what we can do to stop it?

[wasoncestkil58]

Stability (why we had to go to Seaford baffles me, I know there were issues with the council and the CEO of the time.
Board shuffles and lack of a really strong Chairman. ( I like the current board and CEO)
Had a great Coach walk out on us.
The school girl fiasco certainly didn't help.
So there are four reasons why we have slipped down the membership ladder. Some people are really fickle. I think if we continue the track we are on at the moment it won't be long before we are back were we belong.

[Armoooo]

Clubs also have different definitions for what contributes to the membership tally.

Hawthorn have 70k+ members but that also includes 3 game tassie memberships.

It is probably more worth looking at fully paid adult members to get a better idea.

Saints have failed to capitalise on the success and high exposure we had during the GT and Lyon years due to our lack of ultimate success and too much negative publicity.

I think the current administration are doing a great job of engaging with the supporters, certainly better than any time since I've been a member.

We have a really good group of talented and marketable players at the moment, the club will need to push hard for more Friday night games if we want to make the most of it.

Having a bloke like Bruce pop up out of nowhere is a great help,he's the sort of player that gets the young kids attention... If Jason Holmes could break into the side this would also be a bonus.

As it is over the last 4 years we have lost far more games than we have won, mostly played in average timeslots in front of a fraction of the viewers that the big clubs get on a Friday night... There are no way we can expect to grow under those circumstances.

[Locals322]

The truth is the club has a losing history stretching over 100 years. Many people in our heartland opt to support other teams and we're just not very popular. Melbourne have had it much worse than us...as have Richmond and have they stuck fat and showed us what means. Saints fans are a disappointing bunch, not the one's here but the one's that are not here.

I explored some of the reasons here...The fact is we've had a very good team since 2005 right up until 2011...and still have no fans...We've had marquee players like Harvs, Locket, Riewoldt no matter what we do people don't come. If we win the flag it'll spike for a year but give it another harsh season and they'll be all off again.

Hawthorn has made the most of their bandwagon. They all got on in 08 and they've managed to keep them till 15.

It hurts being lower than Bulldogs. Really hurts I need to buy 3000 memberships ASAP.

Some more reasons explored here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=89272

I don't buy into Seaford either. Not idle but not the reason we are missing 13k (and neither are the trains) (and all finals draw a heap of people, a large amount would be neutrals eg: AFL members & MCC)

The club has always been part of the furniture to me. A good job with schooles, clinics, integration brand ubiquity etc but I've long since realised my awareness of the saints is in the minority.

[Armoooo]

It will be interesting to see how the dogs saints rivalry re-emerges. They've certainly got a head start on us but I expect that by 2018 we will be in better shape on and off the field.

[Locals322]

It will be interesting to see how the dogs saints rivalry re-emerges. They've certainly got a head start on us but I expect that by 2018 we will be in better shape on and off the field.

Hopefully still worry a bit when all the oldies leave. Bruce is good but no Riewoldt. Short a premium quality mid also. Mitch Wallis is lost in the haze of talent at the WBD but would be second only to Armitage at St Kilda. There list is better, but we're beating Melbourne. Thank god we got those picks.

[Locals322]

You couldn't have a worse team in the entire league on Friday Night Footy this year than Carlton yet despite their shrinking supporter base, membership and relevance they still got the big games. Certainly the first Saints v Demons would of entertained the neutrals better than that! Although we weren't as competitive last year. Guess it hurt us.

[Armoooo]

Carlton did have a disproportionate amount of Friday night games and I believe they have come out and admitted that this was a mistake, there are a lot of things that they need to take into account to maximize revenue and to be honest I completely hate this strategy. If there was a fair re-distribution program in place it wouldn't be as bad but I personally believe the integrity of the competition should be the number one priority, the draw should be as fair as possible for all clubs, taking into account both on and off field factors.

Unfortunately that will never happen as it's not the premiership cup that keeps the season going it's the $$$

[SainterSan]

Stability (why we had to go to Seaford baffles me, I know there were issues with the council and the CEO of the time.

I'd like to see us eventually return to the Junction Oval. I know that's unlikely but we need a strong base and the best foundation for that is the inner city. It's a pity someone like Lindsay Fox couldn't shift a few more of his millions our way for a refurbishment of the Junction Oval, or perhaps the AFL.

[SainterSan]

Saints have failed to capitalise on the success and high exposure we had during the GT and Lyon years due to our lack of ultimate success and too much negative publicity.

Did we what! Just one flag would have made a difference (2009). We should never have let Lyon go - I know he had us over a barrel but he was worth swallowing our pride for and paying him what he wanted. He's the best coach we've had since Allan Jeans. St Kilda has a genius for letting our best go: Lyon, Jeans, Plugger, Ian Stewart, Luke Ball, Brendon Goddard ... the list goes on and on.

[SainterSan]

The truth is the club has a losing history stretching over 100 years. Many people in our heartland opt to support other teams and we're just not very popular. Melbourne have had it much worse than us...as have Richmond and have they stuck fat and showed us what means. Saints fans are a disappointing bunch, not the one's here but the one's that are not here.

Yep, I think you're pretty spot on. I've felt for a long time that St Kilda doesn't want to face up to the truth about itself. This might upset a few people, but IMO, we could have been one of the big four from the beginning but that horrific run of losses from 1897 (43 in a row?) just killed the club's future and gave us a deep seated inferiority complex. We've been battling that sense of inferiority ever since. The other thing is a club like Collingwood or Essendon is a footy club first, a social club second. St Kilda from its very foundation was a social club that played footy. You put all those factors together and you end up with a club that knows how to lose better than it knows how to win. The good news though is it will only take a golden era to change it all. If we could string 2-3 flags together the club would change dramatically and so would its membership. Bottom line: Saints fans are weary, we need an injection of hope and that comes with a couple of premierships ... and not by one point.

[Trev from the Bush]

No offence meant, SainterSan and other posters, but this views expressed so far in this thread offer nothing constructive or realistic in the way of growing membership. They do, however, recycle well-worn swipes at "the club" (which I would have assumed you are all a part of), memories of Junction Oval of more than half a century ago, grizzles about Seaford (I wonder if Bombers supporters go to so much effort to trash their club about relocating their training base when they never go to watch the team train anyway) and blubbering about former coaches and players choosing to go to other clubs.

You cannot reinvent the past. Growth in membership cannot be sustained by a club having a few good seasons on the ground. It takes a long term strategic plan and many years to implement. This is what is happening at the moment at StKilda - how else can you explain the wooden spooner increasing its membership by almost 10% the next year? You can point to the excellent communications strategy the club adopted when announcing re-signings but that is just part of the plan.

You look at Hawthorn's membership today and it is hard to believe this same, a power club during the 1970's and 80's, struggled to half-fill Princes Park home games that I went to (perhaps it was just the Saints supporters aversion to away games when we were such a rubbish team) but that was the case. I well remember participating in a discussion about memberships in early 1989 where Graham Arthur told how the Hawks were actively out on foot selling membership packages to businesses and residents in suburbs surrounding VFL Park. This was long before the club even announced its intention to play its home games there.

Its fair to allude that Hawthorn's large membership base today was founded on strategies that were in play more than a quarter century ago.

Now, a question for all of you. How many of (a) you (b) your Saint-supporting family members (c) people who go to the footy with you on a regular basis are Saints members? And (d) how many of them are NOT StKilda members? If the answer to (d) is 1 or more then what are YOU doing about it? After all, you are part of the club and want it to be successful don'tyou?

So, SainterSan, my take is be patient. No doubt Hawthorn's continued on-field success is a big contributor to its large membership base but it wasn't always that way. Sound strategies and hard work many years ago are now paying dividends for the Hawks. The Saints are well on the way to 40,000 membership over the next 2 years and continued on field improvement and off field stability will make that milestone a little easier.

So lets get behind the club and refrain from eating our own.

[Trev from the Bush]

No offence meant, SainterSan and other posters, but this views expressed so far in this thread offer nothing constructive or realistic in the way of growing membership. They do, however, recycle well-worn swipes at "the club" (which I would have assumed you are all a part of), memories of Junction Oval of more than half a century ago, grizzles about Seaford (I wonder if Bombers supporters go to so much effort to trash their club about relocating their training base when they never go to watch the team train anyway) and blubbering about former coaches and players choosing to go to other clubs.

You cannot reinvent the past. Growth in membership cannot be sustained by a club having a few good seasons on the ground. It takes a long term strategic plan and many years to implement. This is what is happening at the moment at StKilda - how else can you explain the wooden spooner increasing its membership by almost 10% the next year? You can point to the excellent communications strategy the club adopted when announcing re-signings but that is just part of the plan.

You look at Hawthorn's membership today and it is hard to believe this same, a power club during the 1970's and 80's, struggled to half-fill Princes Park home games that I went to (perhaps it was just the Saints supporters aversion to away games when we were such a rubbish team) but that was the case. I well remember participating in a discussion about memberships in early 1989 where Graham Arthur told how the Hawks were actively out on foot selling membership packages to businesses and residents in suburbs surrounding VFL Park. This was long before the club even announced its intention to play its home games there.

Its fair to allude that Hawthorn's large membership base today was founded on strategies that were in play more than a quarter century ago.

Now, a question for all of you. How many of (a) you (b) your Saint-supporting family members (c) people who go to the footy with you on a regular basis are Saints members? And (d) how many of them are NOT StKilda members? If the answer to (d) is 1 or more then what are YOU doing about it? After all, you are part of the club and want it to be successful don'tyou?

So, SainterSan, my take is be patient. No doubt Hawthorn's continued on-field success is a big contributor to its large membership base but it wasn't always that way. Sound strategies and hard work many years ago are now paying dividends for the Hawks. The Saints are well on the way to 40,000 membership over the next 2 years and continued on field improvement and off field stability will make that milestone a little easier.

So lets get behind the club and refrain from eating our own.

[SainterSan]

No offence meant, SainterSan and other posters, but this views expressed so far in this thread offer nothing constructive or realistic in the way of growing membership. They do, however, recycle well-worn swipes at "the club" (which I would have assumed you are all a part of), memories of Junction Oval of more than half a century ago, grizzles about Seaford (I wonder if Bombers supporters go to so much effort to trash their club about relocating their training base when they never go to watch the team train anyway) and blubbering about former coaches and players choosing to go to other clubs.

No offence taken Trev, but I do feel it's better to be bluntly honest in facing the club's issues rather than maintaining a constructive front. And what we say in this forum is not going to affect the club itself. The intention behind my question is simply to tease out the underlying historical problems of St Kilda which go back a hell of a long way. Without a clear understanding of the root causes we'll never truly identify what the problems are nor be able to confidently put in place a long term strategic plan. St Kilda must accept that there is a deep seated reason why the club keeps failing. Let's face it: one flag by one point in 142 years of history and countless wooden spoons. What is behind that?

You are spot on about Hawthorn's membership being due to strategies that were in play more than a quarter century ago. I'd go even further back to the 1970s. That decade made Hawthorn in every way - they also kicked on in the 70s because they were given the Mornington Peninsular as a recruitment zone. Up until then St Kilda drew many of its best players from that area and even after, but Hawthorn maintained control of the region and still does. So there are a number of reasons why they've grown and we haven't. I hope you are right about our current management, I'd like to think so.

Regarding your question: I'm not a current member because I'm in Sydney on a work transfer for 12 months, otherwise yes I'd be a member as are two of the regulars I go to the footy with. I'm 59, I was born into this club. I can remember standing on beer cans in the outer watching the Saints win in 1966. I was a member of the cheer squad from 1971 to 1973. So yeah, I'm St Kilda through and through and so are the mates I usually go to the footy with. I'm always touting St Kilda!

Lastly, you say we can look forward to a membership of 40,000... Mate, North Melbourne has 41,000 now (a figure we have never achieved) and they are a minnow. I'd be looking at 50,000 minimum. I'm sure there are easily enough Saints fans to justify that figure. How do we do it? Yes, long term strategy, being located in the right place helps, players behaving themselves for a change, and people on the street out their selling St Kilda. But the most important thing for us is having self-belief as a club ... an institution. Collingwood has it, so too Richmond and Essendon, and now Hawthorn. Have we got it? No, sadly we don't, that's the reality. Can we get it? Yes, but: 1. we have to string 2-3 premierships together within a decade, and 2. we have to understand and accept the past failings of this club and where possible root out any lingering doubts/hangovers from the past and start afresh. We have always been up against it - I see no reason why that has to continue. We need to identify our weaknesses as a club, face up to them and change.

[Trev from the Bush]

Oh dear, SainterSan. You and I are the same age suffering from the same Saint Supporters affliction! I am not Sydney based but entrenched far enough into the bush to make getting to matches a well planned logistical exercise. I moved away from Melbourne 30 years ago and got fully involved in country footy and didn't see a Saints match live during the late 1980's (unfortunately I saw too much of the late 70's and early '80's) but got back into the rhythm when we moved from Moorabbin to Waverley. It made the trip from the east far more pleasurable and achievable. And it was as freezing cold and miserable as Moorabbin to boot.

I reckon by any standard memberships are far better value today now we play at Etihad. It's easy to get to by car or train, easy to get in and out of, tolerable on the worst winter's night and you get by far the best view of the game available at any ground. My question - why haven't Saints supporters embraced it? On several occasions this year there have been fewer than 9,000 members turn up and at (too) many home games we have been outnumbered by visiting opposition supporters.

My concern is not our membership numbers, it's the notion that we may have so many members that don't choose to go the the matches.

You have rightly outlined our miserably history but then question why our membership is so low? Can I suggest you just ignored the elephant in the room?

A more worthy question might have been why would anybody bother to be a member at all, given with your focus on the past. I would rather focus on the future. We've both lived through the "golden era" of Moorabbin - we should never forget much of our miserable years over the past 4 decades can be attributed to the club selling players to pay for grandstands that have since been demolished. Good riddance, I say. The club is now at a point where it can build without the encumbrances of the past.

[WellardSaint]

Official Saints FB page has over 120,000 'likes'.
If one-third of these became members instead of just interested observers...

[WellardSaint]

SainterSan lives in Sydney, so "can't be a member."

I live in Perth and pay $117 for 'long distance membership'.
I get a free ticket to our Rd 23 game vs the Ice Eagles.
Our club buys a big block of tickets behind the cheer squad, so we Western Saints sit in a group and away from inbred Perth rednecks.
A nice scarf as well, and the knowledge that my $ goes to my club.
And...free entry to 6 Etihad games if I go over to Melbourne anytime.

Sydney is only one hour on the plane from Melb.
You have more chance of going to Etihad than me, SaintSan.
Please reconsider and become a "supporter" rather than "an interested bystander".
My 2cents worth.

[Trev from the Bush]

Official Saints FB page has over 120,000 'likes'.
If one-third of these became members instead of just interested observers...

You've got my drift..................

[Trev from the Bush]

SainterSan lives in Sydney, so "can't be a member."

I live in Perth and pay $117 for 'long distance membership'.
I get a free ticket to our Rd 23 game vs the Ice Eagles.
Our club buys a big block of tickets behind the cheer squad, so we Western Saints sit in a group and away from inbred Perth rednecks.
A nice scarf as well, and the knowledge that my $ goes to my club.
And...free entry to 6 Etihad games if I go over to Melbourne anytime.

Sydney is only one hour on the plane from Melb.
You have more chance of going to Etihad than me, SaintSan.
Please reconsider and become a "supporter" rather than "an interested bystander".
My 2cents worth.

Bingo!

[SainterSan]

SainterSan lives in Sydney, so "can't be a member."

I wish I could but my job often requires me to work on the weekend. If I could make it I would. Next year I'll resume my membership.

I don't want anyone misunderstanding my question: it isn't about club loyalty or dismissing the importance of our new regime under Richo and co, it's about identifying things in the club's nature that may explain why we have struggled for most of our history; why we have a consistent problem with winning flags (played 8 won 1). I believe there is something behind this record of failure that we need to nail once and for all. And I don't think we should just sweep it aside for the sake of 'looking to the future' as much as I want us focusing on the future. IMO we have an inferiority complex and we need to get over it. It came out in the 2009 GF when we tried to hold Geelong off rather than cement our lead - that's how we lost. I think we did the same thing in 1971. I feel the best way of getting over this barrier is firstly to admit it is there. I can recall an interview with Barry Breen when he was talking about the 66 Grand Final, and more than once he said "St Kilda has a hard time winning Grand Finals. Cowboy Neale said as much in the same interview. It might be a statement of fact but there was resignation in their voices. THAT is what I am getting at. I hope the club has a damned good psychologist because we need one.

Anyway, to you and Trev, there you go, that's all I was getting at. Cheers and GO SAINTS!

[citywest]

St Kilda made 2 devastating decisions 15 years ago. The first one was to move to Docklands after Waverly was demolished. The second one was to abandon Tasmania. More recently a third ridiculous decision moving to Seaford has also impacted on our membership. Thankfully it looks as though the Seaford decision is going to be righted with our imminent move back to Moorabbin.

What we must do now to right the ship is move 3 of our home games from Docklands to the MCG. We could sell this as a separate membership package ie 'The 3 game Blockbuster' membership. The other change is we must all embrace New Zealand. Personally I would never have abandoned Tassie in the first place. NZ can work for us but we need to be patient.

St Kilda can reach 75,000 member by 2020. Here's how....

1. Convince the AFL to fork out some money in re-configuring Auckland to make it suitable for AFL.
2. Play 2 Home games every year in New Zealand. ANZAC Day to be played in Wellington and round 20ish to be played in Auckland. Then the following year it would alternate eg ANZAC Day to be played in Auckland and round 20ish to be played in Wellington.
3. Play 1 Pre-season game in New Zealand every year alternating between Wellington and Auckland.
4. Play 3 Home game Blockbusters at the MCG every year.
5. Play a maximum of 6 Home games per year at Docklands.
6. Pre-season training camps to be in New Zealand every year
7. Force the AFL to allow us to have New Zealand as our OWN Academy as per the Northern Clubs.
8. Move our training facilities back to Moorabbin but keep the links to the Junction Oval and Seaford alive. To do this we would need to train there a few times a year (if possible), and continue to play practice/intra club games at Seaford.

[plugger66]

St Kilda made 2 devastating decisions 15 years ago. The first one was to move to Docklands after Waverly was demolished. The second one was to abandon Tasmania. More recently a third ridiculous decision moving to Seaford has also impacted on our membership. Thankfully it looks as though the Seaford decision is going to be righted with our imminent move back to Moorabbin.

What we must do now to right the ship is move 3 of our home games from Docklands to the MCG. We could sell this as a separate membership package ie 'The 3 game Blockbuster' membership. The other change is we must all embrace New Zealand. Personally I would never have abandoned Tassie in the first place. NZ can work for us but we need to be patient.

St Kilda can reach 75,000 member by 2020. Here's how....

1. Convince the AFL to fork out some money in re-configuring Auckland to make it suitable for AFL.
2. Play 2 Home games every year in New Zealand. ANZAC Day to be played in Wellington and round 20ish to be played in Auckland. Then the following year it would alternate eg ANZAC Day to be played in Auckland and round 20ish to be played in Wellington.
3. Play 1 Pre-season game in New Zealand every year alternating between Wellington and Auckland.
4. Play 3 Home game Blockbusters at the MCG every year.
5. Play a maximum of 6 Home games per year at Docklands.
6. Pre-season training camps to be in New Zealand every year
7. Force the AFL to allow us to have New Zealand as our OWN Academy as per the Northern Clubs.
8. Move our training facilities back to Moorabbin but keep the links to the Junction Oval and Seaford alive. To do this we would need to train there a few times a year (if possible), and continue to play practice/intra club games at Seaford.

Why are you quoting your own post. Just a quick question. How would we get 3 homes games at the G? And how will NZ work?

[citywest]

St Kilda made 2 devastating decisions 15 years ago. The first one was to move to Docklands after Waverly was demolished. The second one was to abandon Tasmania. More recently a third ridiculous decision moving to Seaford has also impacted on our membership. Thankfully it looks as though the Seaford decision is going to be righted with our imminent move back to Moorabbin.

What we must do now to right the ship is move 3 of our home games from Docklands to the MCG. We could sell this as a separate membership package ie 'The 3 game Blockbuster' membership. The other change is we must all embrace New Zealand. Personally I would never have abandoned Tassie in the first place. NZ can work for us but we need to be patient.

St Kilda can reach 75,000 member by 2020. Here's how....

1. Convince the AFL to fork out some money in re-configuring Auckland to make it suitable for AFL.
2. Play 2 Home games every year in New Zealand. ANZAC Day to be played in Wellington and round 20ish to be played in Auckland. Then the following year it would alternate eg ANZAC Day to be played in Auckland and round 20ish to be played in Wellington.
3. Play 1 Pre-season game in New Zealand every year alternating between Wellington and Auckland.
4. Play 3 Home game Blockbusters at the MCG every year.
5. Play a maximum of 6 Home games per year at Docklands.
6. Pre-season training camps to be in New Zealand every year
7. Force the AFL to allow us to have New Zealand as our OWN Academy as per the Northern Clubs.
8. Move our training facilities back to Moorabbin but keep the links to the Junction Oval and Seaford alive. To do this we would need to train there a few times a year (if possible), and continue to play practice/intra club games at Seaford.

Why are you quoting your own post. Just a quick question. How would we get 3 homes games at the G? And how will NZ work?

By persisting and not giving up like we did with Tassie.

[plugger66]

St Kilda made 2 devastating decisions 15 years ago. The first one was to move to Docklands after Waverly was demolished. The second one was to abandon Tasmania. More recently a third ridiculous decision moving to Seaford has also impacted on our membership. Thankfully it looks as though the Seaford decision is going to be righted with our imminent move back to Moorabbin.

What we must do now to right the ship is move 3 of our home games from Docklands to the MCG. We could sell this as a separate membership package ie 'The 3 game Blockbuster' membership. The other change is we must all embrace New Zealand. Personally I would never have abandoned Tassie in the first place. NZ can work for us but we need to be patient.

St Kilda can reach 75,000 member by 2020. Here's how....

1. Convince the AFL to fork out some money in re-configuring Auckland to make it suitable for AFL.
2. Play 2 Home games every year in New Zealand. ANZAC Day to be played in Wellington and round 20ish to be played in Auckland. Then the following year it would alternate eg ANZAC Day to be played in Auckland and round 20ish to be played in Wellington.
3. Play 1 Pre-season game in New Zealand every year alternating between Wellington and Auckland.
4. Play 3 Home game Blockbusters at the MCG every year.
5. Play a maximum of 6 Home games per year at Docklands.
6. Pre-season training camps to be in New Zealand every year
7. Force the AFL to allow us to have New Zealand as our OWN Academy as per the Northern Clubs.
8. Move our training facilities back to Moorabbin but keep the links to the Junction Oval and Seaford alive. To do this we would need to train there a few times a year (if possible), and continue to play practice/intra club games at Seaford.

Why are you quoting your own post. Just a quick question. How would we get 3 homes games at the G? And how will NZ work?

By persisting and not giving up like we did with Tassie.

Well that's a great reason for it to work.

[citywest]

New Zealand can and will be successful but not if we give up.