Who agrees with this?

[Vazelos]

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/m ... ikghj.html

Whatever happens at the MCG late Sunday afternoon, the Demons hold a small, yet clear lead over the Saints in terms of developing a team that could eventually ascend to heaven on the G in late September.

This appraisal will surprise and probably be disputed by those of Saintly hue. St Kilda, after all, have been the more consistent side in 2015 and made the greater progress on the field — particularly when measured against the expectation that they would be repeat wooden spooners. The Saints also seem further advanced in building a culture, while Alan Richardson is more proven and seasoned than Paul Roos' untried successor, Simon Goodwin.

But the longer-term outlook is far more consequential than this weekend's result, which should again be close. In their memorable last meeting, these rebuilding peers were separated by a kick, as the Dees comically failed to defend the very defensible with 40 seconds left.

Melbourne and St Kilda are a fair comparison — and will remain so for some years — since they have ended up at the starting gate together in their journey up the ladder. After near misses in grand finals, the Saints plummeted, while the Dees have never risen post-Neale Daniher. They are peers in the same way that St Kilda and Geelong were a decade ago, when those clubs were vaulting up the ladder in unison, albeit Sunday's combatants have a longer road ahead.
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In 2004, Grant Thomas's Saints were seen as holding a talent edge over Geelong, which was kicking to an immature Cameron Mooney and NFL-bound Ben Graham rather than Nick Riewoldt, Fraser Gehrig, Justin Koschitzke and Aaron Hamill. Paul Chapman snarled that the Cats were superior and, in time, Chappie's call would be vindicated.

Geelong had not yet acquired Brad Ottens, Joel Selwood or, thanks to an extremely generous version of the father son rule, Tom Hawkins. Gary Ablett was still known as "junior". Stevie J hadn't curbed his wayward ways. The ultimate difference between the clubs, however, wasn't simply Matthew Scarlett's toe poke, but that the Cats continued to find players while the Saints list stagnated.

So, to judge that Melbourne is more advanced than the Saints today doesn't mean that advantage will be maintained. The margin isn't so great that the Saints can't make it up in the space of one or two post-seasons, through a judicious trade or two. The Saints, indeed, might have been on near level terms had they taken up the Greater Western Sydney offer and accepted picks 4 and 7 in exchange for pick no 1 last year.

Where are the Dees in front on the futures index? The obvious advantage is encapsulated by two names: Jesse Hogan and Angus Brayshaw. This pair have been exceptional in their first seasons of senior footy and, barring injury, are imminent A grade players in key roles. Brayshaw also shapes as captaincy material.

Christian Petracca might have been the third musketeer for Melbourne this season but for his wounded knee, the Saints having chosen key forward Paddy McCartin ahead of him as pick no 1 last November. That the Saints didn't accept 4 and 7 for pick 1 surprised many rival recruiters, who reckoned there wasn't a stand out No. 1 selection of Riewoldt's ilk.

We can see what Hogan is capable of becoming and, as the infant cornerstone of the forward line, he's already formidable. McCartin, who is slated to become that player, is (understandably) yet to demonstrate that capacity and opinions of Paddy vary; one list manager actually felt that, over the journey, he would surpass Hogan. Others worried about his speed and tank.

Brayshaw shapes as a tremendous modern midfielder, with the requisite size and aggression. Jack Viney, who is without his team mate's size, should still be a nice foil to Brayshaw and Petracca.

The Saints, to this point, haven't showcased such obvious A graders (albeit Petracca hasn't been seen either). Luke Dunstan is a steady player, and Jack Billings certainly has the skill to be top shelf. St Kilda's stand outs this year, though, are players in their mid 20s — David Armitage's great leap forward has been one of the stories of the season and he forms a strong midfield tandem with speedy Jack Steven, 25. Josh Bruce, reinvented as a key forward, would walk in to a dozen teams and was a terrific bargain recruit.

The Saints own a far stronger and more resilient senior core than Melbourne, which, true to the philosophies of Paul Roos, has compensated by trading in seasoned bodies, such as Bernie Vince, Daniel Cross, Heritier Lumumba and Jeff Garlett. Vince has been easily the pick of the imports; he and Nathan Jones are Melbourne's answer to Armitage and Steven.

Four out of five list managers/recruiters from different clubs did not hesitate to nominate Melbourne when asked which club was better placed, at this early stage, of their progression. "Melbourne look like they've got some certainty," said one well-regarded recruiter. "You think Hogan will be very good player, Brayshaw will be a very good player. Petracca has great parallels to Brayshaw." Dom Tyson, Christian Salem and Viney should ensure that the Demon midfield is strong.

In defence, Melbourne also is blessed with an absolute pillar in Tom McDonald, who is just 22 and already an established key back. The Saints don't have an equivalent, though tall backs tend to be made, not born and can also be acquired. They need someone better than Luke Delaney and will be hoping that Hugh Goddard, drafted in the same intake as McCartin, can hold down centre half-back or full-back.

The Saints have a number of players of promise, whose eventual station is difficult to predict. How good are Blake Acres, Billy Longer and Tom Hickey? Unclear. Ditto for Jimmy Webster and Jack Newnes. There are numerous question marks. On this year's showing, Jack Lonie has the high footy IQ to defy his jockey's build and become a 150-gamer.

If the Demons are slightly ahead in this long game, the reality is that they should be far further advanced, on the basis of a decade at or near the bottom. The Saints have started later and, in 2015, have a greater reliance on older heads.

The margin is sufficiently narrow that the decisions that are yet to be made will still largely determine which club has the higher peak.

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/m ... z3gzwnvC00

[Con Gorozidis]

Wow. What a deluded article. Lets forget about the exercise of comparing the Saints to the Dees and just focus on the Dees for a moment. He says this..... "developing a team that could eventually ascend to heaven on the G in late September...."

Honestly Melbourne are so from from a flag it isnt funny.

I think it is way too early to bother with comparisons between the two sides because we are still in a transition phase and need to replace gun players like Roo, Montagna and Dempster.

But Melbourne are not in a transition and have been trying to rebuild for 7 years. But they are seriously so awful why even write an article suggesting they were on the rise? They arent. Delusional wishful thinking and nothing more than writing an article about unicorns. A complete waste of paper article.

He also never even watches us play because Newnes is pretty much an established gun imo. He doesnt even mention Roberton who is also an established gun imo.

[Harves Man]

Typical journo - starts off with a strong statement, then intellectualizes and has an each-way bet.

As Sir Les Patterson observed: Journo - a drunk, a failed novelist.

[saintbrat]

he may have changed his mind today- that was written before yesterday...

[Toy Saint]

The Geelong players developed big hard bodies, just like Bomber Thompson suggested Essendon needs to be a top side.

[Vazelos]

There is a general consensus that we are both on the rise but you are correct in saying its very early to suggest any meaningful rise to a serious contender is a given.
I think after todays showing by Mc Cartin & to a lesser extent Goddard we are smiling a little bit more than we were this morning.
Throw in Billings as well as players like Mc Kenzie & Acres & its getting even more exciting.
The downside is replacing Riewoldt who is simply a Great that dont come very often.

[Con Gorozidis]

he may have changed his mind today- that was written before yesterday...

He has had 15 opportunities to watch Melbourne this year. Surely he can see they are not developing as well as young sides like the GWS, Pies and Dogs. Even the Eagles are a young side.

[saynta]

The Geelong players developed big hard bodies, just like Bomber Thompson suggested Essendon needs to be a top side.

Probably with some artificial help.

[Con Gorozidis]

There is a general consensus that we are both on the rise but you are correct in saying its very early to suggest any meaningful rise to a serious contender is a given.
I think after todays showing by Mc Cartin & to a lesser extent Goddard we are smiling a little bit more than we were this morning.
Throw in Billings as well as players like Mc Kenzie & Acres & its getting even more exciting.
The downside is replacing Riewoldt who is simply a Great that dont come very often.

Agree but I don't think we should be feeling super great about beating up on Melbourne. I think they have some serious problems.
Lets compare ourselves with the AFL's good young sides.

[Vazelos]

Did fine v the Bulldogs, were competitive v the GC Suns, I think we have done quite well versus the AFL's good young sides.

[Goose is king]

Today would change that opinion a bit.
For us Roo and Fisher will be hard to replace and even Dempster.
I believe the past two drafts and trading periods have been more fruitful for us than them and has fast tracked our position
We will also be more attractive for a free agent next year.
We tackle they don't
We score they don't
We have their measure

[Goose is king]

Just had a better look at the ages of some of Melbournes players.
Grimes, Dunn, Lumumba, Cross, Howes, Jones, Vince none will improve.
They are stuffed

[Enrico_Misso]

Jake Niall is now a laughing stock.

Melbourne are a rabble.
Watts turned the ball over almost every time. The QE2 has a smaller turning circle than JW.
Dawes is a dud.
Harry Whoever is now just a hack.

I'll take our youngsters anyday compared to the over rated demons.
Roos is taking them on a journey to nowhere.

[Rosco]

Did fine v the Bulldogs, were competitive v the GC Suns, I think we have done quite well versus the AFL's good young sides.

Split our games against each of those, should have beaten the bombers the first time and lost to hawthorn by under 100. Looks fine.

[Con Gorozidis]

Did fine v the Bulldogs, were competitive v the GC Suns, I think we have done quite well versus the AFL's good young sides.

Agree. Im very happy with how we stacked up v the Dogs this year.
We also should have beaten GWS in Rd 1.
Eagles Tiges and Pies also fairly young.
We almost ran over the Tiges as well.

[Con Gorozidis]

Sorry
double post

[Munga]

I read the first line. Won't waste my time with the rest.

[stjay]

I am stoked at how many wins we've got so far this year but when Rooey's our best for the day and we haven't won without him I think we are overrating where we are at in the rebuild.
Take him out of the equation and we are going to struggle to win a game, our forward line is easily shut down.
Hope I'm wrong but I think next year we will be around the same level.

[magnifisaint]

I am stoked at how many wins we've got so far this year but when Rooey's our best for the day and we haven't won without him I think we are overrating where we are at in the rebuild.
Take him out of the equation and we are going to struggle to win a game, our forward line is easily shut down.
Hope I'm wrong but I think next year we will be around the same level.

I hope you're wrong but yours is just an opinion. Sorry but they don't mean much.

[stjay]

I am stoked at how many wins we've got so far this year but when Rooey's our best for the day and we haven't won without him I think we are overrating where we are at in the rebuild.
Take him out of the equation and we are going to struggle to win a game, our forward line is easily shut down.
Hope I'm wrong but I think next year we will be around the same level.

[Eastern]

Jake Niall is probably around at Jon Ralph's house right now, wanting to borrow his 'Reversing Beeper' !!

[bergholt]

C'mon guys, no need to sook. Melbourne's list is obviously better placed than ours. Hopefully it won't be the case in a couple of years but it is now.

The reason we beat them well is because our veterans are better. The oldest eight players on the ground were: Fisher, Riewoldt, Cross, Montagna, Dempster, Schneider, Vince, Gilbert. Most of them ours and most of them in our best players. So let's not get too excited about our kids yet - yes, Paddy was good and I liked Newnesy's game as well. But the rest were just serviceable.

Here's the potential two midfields in 2018:

Armitage, Steven, Newnes, Weller, Ross, Dunstan, Billings, Sinclair, Acres, McKenzie
vs
Jones, Trengove, Tyson, Viney, Toumpas, Salem, Brayshaw, Stretch, Neal-Bullen, Petracca

Any unbiased observer would pick the group with Brayshaw, Petracca, Viney, Tyson etc. I like our guys and think they have good potential, but:

- Newnes is playing well but not winning games off his own boot yet - solid B-grader right now
- Weller is better as a half-foward or tagger than as an attacking mid
- Ross is playing for Sandy
- Dunstan's having an underwhelming second season
- Billings has a long-term injury (though I think he'll be a star if he stays fit)
- Sinclair has mainly played as a small forward (though mostly mid yesterday)
- Acres is playing for Sandy
- McKenzie is playing for Sandy

There are very few certainties there, and that's what Niall as a neutral observer is commenting on.

[SaintPav]

When was the club ever offered pick 4 and pick 7 for our pick 1?

I thought that the Saints refuted that this offer ever took place.

[gringo]

C'mon guys, no need to sook. Melbourne's list is obviously better placed than ours. Hopefully it won't be the case in a couple of years but it is now.

The reason we beat them well is because our veterans are better. The oldest eight players on the ground were: Fisher, Riewoldt, Cross, Montagna, Dempster, Schneider, Vince, Gilbert. Most of them ours and most of them in our best players. So let's not get too excited about our kids yet - yes, Paddy was good and I liked Newnesy's game as well. But the rest were just serviceable.

Here's the potential two midfields in 2018:

Armitage, Steven, Newnes, Weller, Ross, Dunstan, Billings, Sinclair, Acres, McKenzie
vs
Jones, Trengove, Tyson, Viney, Toumpas, Salem, Brayshaw, Stretch, Neal-Bullen, Petracca

Any unbiased observer would pick the group with Brayshaw, Petracca, Viney, Tyson etc. I like our guys and think they have good potential, but:

- Newnes is playing well but not winning games off his own boot yet - solid B-grader right now
- Weller is better as a half-foward or tagger than as an attacking mid
- Ross is playing for Sandy
- Dunstan's having an underwhelming second season
- Billings has a long-term injury (though I think he'll be a star if he stays fit)
- Sinclair has mainly played as a small forward (though mostly mid yesterday)
- Acres is playing for Sandy
- McKenzie is playing for Sandy

There are very few certainties there, and that's what Niall as a neutral observer is commenting on.

I think that you could easily as Niall says compare Geelong and us from our rising era of the early 2000s. Geelong didn't have the blue chip stocks we did but had the better list in the end. Very comparable. We have recruited very well in the last couple of years. He discounts Bruce, Steven and Armo with a wave of the hand yet they are mid 20s and currently are in the top 5 in the league in their positions. Melbourne's blue chips might reach that level but Scully and Trengove were going to too. Bruce is one goal off Buddy and he would only get a game at a dozen clubs? Silly comment. Paddy showed enough for me to get very excited, he will make it to a least a very handy player. Hogan is hyped up but so far he's just a very promising player. We also won with out much contribution from Steven and Armo. Dunstan's last few games have been excellent after a slow start. We are two A grade mids and a KPB off being a finals side IMO. We could already have them or recruit them and we will need to phase kids in to the spots held by seniors but so far so good. Melbourne have a broken spirit and look a long way off to me.

[spert]

The Geelong players developed big hard bodies, just like Bomber Thompson suggested Essendon needs to be a top side.

Probably with some artificial help.

Absolutely no doubt about that!