Poll - Do you want us to beat Essendon?

[samuraisaint]

Yes, I want St Kilda to beat Essendon. However wins and losses for this year don't really matter IMHO. Looking at the current ladder, I want the Saints to finish 16th to give us the best opportunity to get an elite mid at pick 3 and another mid as good as Dunstan at pick 21. Then I would also consider trading Hickey for pick 20 or better and get another mid as good as Dunstan.

So, you would trade our best ruckman after three years with us and after five years in the system for a midfielder, who may or may not make it? Hickey may be a late bloomer, he may be still recovering from his leg injury last year, but he will be a valuable player when we are contesting in several years time.

[citywest]

Yes, I want St Kilda to beat Essendon. However wins and losses for this year don't really matter IMHO. Looking at the current ladder, I want the Saints to finish 16th to give us the best opportunity to get an elite mid at pick 3 and another mid as good as Dunstan at pick 21. Then I would also consider trading Hickey for pick 20 or better and get another mid as good as Dunstan.

So, you would trade our best ruckman after three years with us and after five years in the system for a midfielder, who may or may not make it? Hickey may be a late bloomer, he may be still recovering from his leg injury last year, but he will be a valuable player when we are contesting in several years time.

Yes I would trade Hickey but only if we were to receive pick 20 or better. We could then elevate Holmes to the senior list and we also have Pierce. With pick 20 we could grab another top midfielder which is what we need more so than a ruckman. It's a strategic decision that I believe St Kilda should make.

[Bunk_Moreland]

Yes, I want St Kilda to beat Essendon. However wins and losses for this year don't really matter IMHO. Looking at the current ladder, I want the Saints to finish 16th to give us the best opportunity to get an elite mid at pick 3 and another mid as good as Dunstan at pick 21. Then I would also consider trading Hickey for pick 20 or better and get another mid as good as Dunstan.

So, you would trade our best ruckman after three years with us and after five years in the system for a midfielder, who may or may not make it? Hickey may be a late bloomer, he may be still recovering from his leg injury last year, but he will be a valuable player when we are contesting in several years time.

Yes I would trade Hickey but only if we were to receive pick 20 or better. We could then elevate Holmes to the senior list and we also have Pierce. With pick 20 we could grab another top midfielder which is what we need more so than a ruckman. It's a strategic decision that I believe St Kilda should make.

The word is we will go for mid, tall mid at the moment. We have plenty of Dunstan types, we need some outside pace.

Hopefully if we have pick 3 we are almost a motza to pick up Parish, becaue GC and Carlton will go for Scasche and Weitering.

Hoever if either of those two are available it will be a difficult choice then.

this does not take into account the fact that Mills and Hopper may be bid upon by us with our first pick which will cost GWS a lot of draft points. This means an opportunity to get a player like a Treloar for first round swap picks (4 for ten).

We will need to look to trade a player with currency. Citiwests suggestion isn't the worst I have ever heard.

[citywest]

Callum Twomey says....
Midfielder 181cm Geelong Falcons.
Darcy Parish is very close to being the best midfielder in the draft because of his ability to take the game forward. The run-and-carry specialist loves to take the game on. He's instinctive and tries to get the ball his team's way, and quickly. He uses it well, is smart around goal, and offers a spark whenever he's around the ball. He also belies his size to throw himself into the action, and he played with a broken thumb (which required surgery and six weeks on the sidelines) in the academy's game against the Northern Blues.

This is exactly why I want the Saints to finish 16th and be 'rewarded' with pick 3.

Callum Twomey also says....
Key Defender 193cm Dandenong Stingrays.
Kieran Collins has added important run and intercept marking to his game in the past two months, which has seen the key defender move up the draft ranks. The 17-year-old sticks to his task and is a reliable option to hold down a key forward. But his rise as a prospect has come in his developing confidence to run the ball out of defence and add some attacking elements to his make-up.

Sounds like the perfect replacement for Fisher I reckon and Twomey thinks he will go at pick 20. If we finish 16th we will have picks 3 and 21ish and a strong chance of getting both Parish and Collins...very happy if this happens!!!

[saynta]

Callum Twomey says....
Midfielder 181cm Geelong Falcons.
Darcy Parish is very close to being the best midfielder in the draft because of his ability to take the game forward. The run-and-carry specialist loves to take the game on. He's instinctive and tries to get the ball his team's way, and quickly. He uses it well, is smart around goal, and offers a spark whenever he's around the ball. He also belies his size to throw himself into the action, and he played with a broken thumb (which required surgery and six weeks on the sidelines) in the academy's game against the Northern Blues.

This is exactly why I want the Saints to finish 16th and be 'rewarded' with pick 3.

Callum Twomey also says....
Key Defender 193cm Dandenong Stingrays.
Kieran Collins has added important run and intercept marking to his game in the past two months, which has seen the key defender move up the draft ranks. The 17-year-old sticks to his task and is a reliable option to hold down a key forward. But his rise as a prospect has come in his developing confidence to run the ball out of defence and add some attacking elements to his make-up.

Sounds like the perfect replacement for Fisher I reckon and Twomey thinks he will go at pick 20. If we finish 16th we will have picks 3 and 21ish and a strong chance of getting both Parish and Collins...very happy if this happens!!!

Collins is a boy in a man's body. he looks more like a 25 year old man, rather than a boy of 17.
I would be extremely wrapped to get both Parish and Collins.

[Old Mate]

Callum Twomey says....
Midfielder 181cm Geelong Falcons.
Darcy Parish is very close to being the best midfielder in the draft because of his ability to take the game forward. The run-and-carry specialist loves to take the game on. He's instinctive and tries to get the ball his team's way, and quickly. He uses it well, is smart around goal, and offers a spark whenever he's around the ball. He also belies his size to throw himself into the action, and he played with a broken thumb (which required surgery and six weeks on the sidelines) in the academy's game against the Northern Blues.

This is exactly why I want the Saints to finish 16th and be 'rewarded' with pick 3.

Callum Twomey also says....
Key Defender 193cm Dandenong Stingrays.
Kieran Collins has added important run and intercept marking to his game in the past two months, which has seen the key defender move up the draft ranks. The 17-year-old sticks to his task and is a reliable option to hold down a key forward. But his rise as a prospect has come in his developing confidence to run the ball out of defence and add some attacking elements to his make-up.

Sounds like the perfect replacement for Fisher I reckon and Twomey thinks he will go at pick 20. If we finish 16th we will have picks 3 and 21ish and a strong chance of getting both Parish and Collins...very happy if this happens!!!

This is Callam's personal rankings it has nothing to do with how he thinks the draft will go.

[SaintPav]

Yes, I want St Kilda to beat Essendon. However wins and losses for this year don't really matter IMHO. Looking at the current ladder, I want the Saints to finish 16th to give us the best opportunity to get an elite mid at pick 3 and another mid as good as Dunstan at pick 21. Then I would also consider trading Hickey for pick 20 or better and get another mid as good as Dunstan.

So, you would trade our best ruckman after three years with us and after five years in the system for a midfielder, who may or may not make it? Hickey may be a late bloomer, he may be still recovering from his leg injury last year, but he will be a valuable player when we are contesting in several years time.

Yes I would trade Hickey but only if we were to receive pick 20 or better. We could then elevate Holmes to the senior list and we also have Pierce. With pick 20 we could grab another top midfielder which is what we need more so than a ruckman. It's a strategic decision that I believe St Kilda should make.

The word is we will go for mid, tall mid at the moment. We have plenty of Dunstan types, we need some outside pace.

Hopefully if we have pick 3 we are almost a motza to pick up Parish, becaue GC and Carlton will go for Scasche and Weitering.

Hoever if either of those two are available it will be a difficult choice then.

this does not take into account the fact that Mills and Hopper may be bid upon by us with our first pick which will cost GWS a lot of draft points. This means an opportunity to get a player like a Treloar for first round swap picks (4 for ten).

We will need to look to trade a player with currency. Citiwests suggestion isn't the worst I have ever heard.

Trading a ruck might not be the worst idea but trading Hickey might be if he turns out to be the best out of all the rucks we have, which is a good possibility.

[Teflon]

Gee Pav forming a view on how to get some talent in? you'll need to be careful if that catches on....

I cant believe you people, suggesting we get pick 3 to get elite talent like Parish in is just plain dumb.
Everyone knows we simply must win all games NOW , finish 9th because we already have this elite outside midfield talent in the club plus with Gilbo bringing the ball out of defence like a silky Bruce from Hawks in 12 months we'll be cherry ripe to tackle the big boys!!
Heres hoping for good, short term Sunday nights!!!!

[asiu]

.. did ya see those figures in the other thread !
We've finished 9th more times than the Tuggers.

Never should we finish 9th Again !!!

[Bunk_Moreland]

Callum Twomey says....
Midfielder 181cm Geelong Falcons.
Darcy Parish is very close to being the best midfielder in the draft because of his ability to take the game forward. The run-and-carry specialist loves to take the game on. He's instinctive and tries to get the ball his team's way, and quickly. He uses it well, is smart around goal, and offers a spark whenever he's around the ball. He also belies his size to throw himself into the action, and he played with a broken thumb (which required surgery and six weeks on the sidelines) in the academy's game against the Northern Blues.

This is exactly why I want the Saints to finish 16th and be 'rewarded' with pick 3.

Callum Twomey also says....
Key Defender 193cm Dandenong Stingrays.
Kieran Collins has added important run and intercept marking to his game in the past two months, which has seen the key defender move up the draft ranks. The 17-year-old sticks to his task and is a reliable option to hold down a key forward. But his rise as a prospect has come in his developing confidence to run the ball out of defence and add some attacking elements to his make-up.

Sounds like the perfect replacement for Fisher I reckon and Twomey thinks he will go at pick 20. If we finish 16th we will have picks 3 and 21ish and a strong chance of getting both Parish and Collins...very happy if this happens!!!

Collins is a boy in a man's body. he looks more like a 25 year old man, rather than a boy of 17.
I would be extremely wrapped to get both Parish and Collins.

If this happened I would be more than happy

[asiu]

*something for the jackals to get incensed about follows*

Better last THAN 9th

[Con Gorozidis]

Our overall W:L against the Bombers is 65:140.
So we only win 1 in every 3.
They think we are rabble.
We really should shove one up them and win this.

[samuraisaint]

We should Con and let's face it, we probably will this time.

Regarding our ladder position though, the way that Essendon, Port Adelaide and North Melbourne are spudding it up at the moment, if we do, by some miracle beat all these sides, we are a chance to finish 12th this year, and judging by North's LOLworthy performance we are a sneaky chance (although I don't really think we can Port in Adelaide).

[samuraisaint]

Our overall W:L against the Bombers is 65:140.
So we only win 1 in every 3.
They think we are rabble.
We really should shove one up them and win this.

and I can remember when it was 52-100 and thinking that was bad! They really have owned us this past 35 years, but we have turned it around against Richmond, Carlton and Melbourne since 1997, so it can be done.

[samuraisaint]

Yes, I want St Kilda to beat Essendon. However wins and losses for this year don't really matter IMHO. Looking at the current ladder, I want the Saints to finish 16th to give us the best opportunity to get an elite mid at pick 3 and another mid as good as Dunstan at pick 21. Then I would also consider trading Hickey for pick 20 or better and get another mid as good as Dunstan.

So, you would trade our best ruckman after three years with us and after five years in the system for a midfielder, who may or may not make it? Hickey may be a late bloomer, he may be still recovering from his leg injury last year, but he will be a valuable player when we are contesting in several years time.

Yes I would trade Hickey but only if we were to receive pick 20 or better. We could then elevate Holmes to the senior list and we also have Pierce. With pick 20 we could grab another top midfielder which is what we need more so than a ruckman. It's a strategic decision that I believe St Kilda should make.

But we gave up a higher pick to get him in he first place. When we are ready to challenge, Rory Sloane will be an unrestricted FA and we will just grab him for nothing.

[samuraisaint]

.. did ya see those figures in the other thread !
We've finished 9th more times than the Tuggers.

Never should we finish 9th Again !!!

The way that North, Port and Essendon are spudding it up, they are making it easy for us.

[kosifantutti]

*something for the jackals to get incensed about follows*

Better last THAN 9th

Glad you brought it up.

This is from an earlier post of mine

Last wooden spoon of Premiership teams
2014 / 2013 Hawthorn 1965
2012 / 2005 Sydney 1994
2011 / 2009 / 2007 Geelong 1958
2010 Collingwood 1999 Josh Fraser dropped before 2010 finals
2006 West Coast ----
2004 Port Adelaide ----
2003 / 2002 / 2001 Brisbane 1998 Des Headland played in 2002 Premiership
2000 Essendon 1933
1999 / 1996 North Melbourne 1972
1998 /1997 Adelaide ---
1995 Carlton ----

1966 St Kilda 1955

Finishing last and developing a losing culture is obviously the key to success.

Now the most recent 9th place finish of Premiership teams and how they used their round 1 pick.

2014 / 2013 / 2008 Hawthorn
2009 traded pick for Shaun Burgoyne, played in 2013 and 2014 flags.
2003 traded their pick for Trent Croad, played in 2008 premiership.
1999 picked up Luke McPharlin with first pick, eventually part of the trade to get them pick 1 and Luke Hodge.

2012 / 2005 Sydney 1981

2011 / 2009 / 2007 Geelong
2002 Drafted Andrew Mackie, pick 7, triple premiership player

2010 Collingwood 2001 Richard Cole, oh well

2006 West Coast ...

2004 Port Adelaide
1997 drafted Chad Cornes, played in 2004 premiership

2003 / 2002 / 2001 Brisbane ...

2000 Essendon 1987

1999 / 1996 North Melbourne 1989

1998 /1997 Adelaide back to back 9ths in 91 / 92

1995 Carlton 1925

1966 St Kilda 1957

[plugger66]

Damming but the ones who don't care will tell us wins are meh. Whatever that means.

[dragit]

*something for the jackals to get incensed about follows*

Better last THAN 9th

Glad you brought it up.

This is from an earlier post of mine

Last wooden spoon of Premiership teams
2014 / 2013 Hawthorn 1965
2012 / 2005 Sydney 1994
2011 / 2009 / 2007 Geelong 1958
2010 Collingwood 1999 Josh Fraser dropped before 2010 finals
2006 West Coast ----
2004 Port Adelaide ----
2003 / 2002 / 2001 Brisbane 1998 Des Headland played in 2002 Premiership
2000 Essendon 1933
1999 / 1996 North Melbourne 1972
1998 /1997 Adelaide ---
1995 Carlton ----

1966 St Kilda 1955

Finishing last and developing a losing culture is obviously the key to success.

Now the most recent 9th place finish of Premiership teams and how they used their round 1 pick.

2014 / 2013 / 2008 Hawthorn
2009 traded pick for Shaun Burgoyne, played in 2013 and 2014 flags.
2003 traded their pick for Trent Croad, played in 2008 premiership.
1999 picked up Luke McPharlin with first pick, eventually part of the trade to get them pick 1 and Luke Hodge.

2012 / 2005 Sydney 1981

2011 / 2009 / 2007 Geelong
2002 Drafted Andrew Mackie, pick 7, triple premiership player

2010 Collingwood 2001 Richard Cole, oh well

2006 West Coast ...

2004 Port Adelaide
1997 drafted Chad Cornes, played in 2004 premiership

2003 / 2002 / 2001 Brisbane ...

2000 Essendon 1987

1999 / 1996 North Melbourne 1989

1998 /1997 Adelaide back to back 9ths in 91 / 92

1995 Carlton 1925

1966 St Kilda 1957

That's some good analysis on the number 9, however I think you are probably deliberately missing the more general point about teams finishing mid-table for an extended period and how they can get stuck there by not adding elite talent.

While there are no guarantees with early picks, I would confidently say that Hawthorns success has largely been on the back of a few elite players taken in the top 4 of the draft… just like our relative success was massively influenced by Riewoldt, Kosi, Ball & Goddard.

The key is obviously to draft/trade well most years, however when you butcher 5-6 drafts consecutively like we have then you have a massive dearth of elite talent on the list. We are clearly still a number of elite midfielders short of a team that will ever challenge for a flag, where we can find them is the question - will pick 4 be a big advantage over pick 7 - I have no idea about this year's talent to be honest.

I don't think many if anyone is advocating actually throwing games, more just having one eye on the longer term...

Every week while watching us I want to win, but after the fact I can pretty easily console myself with the thought of an absolute gun coming to us early in the draft, that we otherwise wouldn't have got if we'd won.

If I literally wanted us to lose, then I wouldn't bother watching.

[Teflon]

Damming but the ones who don't care will tell us wins are meh. Whatever that means.

Yes cause that post tells us lots about the benefits of short term wins and their long term impacts??
Meh...

[kosifantutti]

*something for the jackals to get incensed about follows*

Better last THAN 9th

Glad you brought it up.

This is from an earlier post of mine

Last wooden spoon of Premiership teams
2014 / 2013 Hawthorn 1965
2012 / 2005 Sydney 1994
2011 / 2009 / 2007 Geelong 1958
2010 Collingwood 1999 Josh Fraser dropped before 2010 finals
2006 West Coast ----
2004 Port Adelaide ----
2003 / 2002 / 2001 Brisbane 1998 Des Headland played in 2002 Premiership
2000 Essendon 1933
1999 / 1996 North Melbourne 1972
1998 /1997 Adelaide ---
1995 Carlton ----

1966 St Kilda 1955

Finishing last and developing a losing culture is obviously the key to success.

Now the most recent 9th place finish of Premiership teams and how they used their round 1 pick.

2014 / 2013 / 2008 Hawthorn
2009 traded pick for Shaun Burgoyne, played in 2013 and 2014 flags.
2003 traded their pick for Trent Croad, played in 2008 premiership.
1999 picked up Luke McPharlin with first pick, eventually part of the trade to get them pick 1 and Luke Hodge.

2012 / 2005 Sydney 1981

2011 / 2009 / 2007 Geelong
2002 Drafted Andrew Mackie, pick 7, triple premiership player

2010 Collingwood 2001 Richard Cole, oh well

2006 West Coast ...

2004 Port Adelaide
1997 drafted Chad Cornes, played in 2004 premiership

2003 / 2002 / 2001 Brisbane ...

2000 Essendon 1987

1999 / 1996 North Melbourne 1989

1998 /1997 Adelaide back to back 9ths in 91 / 92

1995 Carlton 1925

1966 St Kilda 1957

That's some good analysis on the number 9, however I think you are probably deliberately missing the more general point about teams finishing mid-table for an extended period and how they can get stuck there by not adding elite talent.

While there are no guarantees with early picks, I would confidently say that Hawthorns success has largely been on the back of a few elite players taken in the top 4 of the draft… just like our relative success was massively influenced by Riewoldt, Kosi, Ball & Goddard.

The key is obviously to draft/trade well most years, however when you butcher 5-6 drafts consecutively like we have then you have a massive dearth of elite talent on the list. We are clearly still a number of elite midfielders short of a team that will ever challenge for a flag, where we can find them is the question - will pick 4 be a big advantage over pick 7 - I have no idea about this year's talent to be honest.

I don't think many if anyone is advocating actually throwing games, more just having one eye on the longer term...

Every week while watching us I want to win, but after the fact I can pretty easily console myself with the thought of an absolute gun coming to us early in the draft, that we otherwise wouldn't have got if we'd won.

If I literally wanted us to lose, then I wouldn't bother watching.

I'm not deliberately missing any points. WindSister and Teflon seem obsessed with finishing 9th so I just wanted to give them some ammunition to work with.

But I'm still waiting to see the team that finished at or near the bottom for three years or more, plundered the draft and went on to win the flag.

I also can't understand how people are wanting us to finish 16th or wanting us to win only six games without actually wanting us to lose games. (I'm not saying that's you Dragit.)

[dragit]

No worries Kosi…

When looking at these teams, I guess you need to think about which list you think is closer to a flag…

Are North, Richmond or Essendon any closer to a flag than Melbourne?

While I don't want to stay down the bottom for along time, I can see that Melbourne are building an incredible list in the past few years, which we are not going to compete with unless we add some more genuine A-graders.

I absolutely think that part of the reason we have shed Goddard, Dal Santo & McEvoy was to make us less competitive in the short term to ensure we finish low and gather very early picks… which in reality is just another form of tanking IMO. This form I am okay with, deliberately losing actual games is completely unacceptable.

[asiu]

...about teams finishing mid-table for an extended period and how they can get stuck there by not adding elite talent.

its a pretty simple , clear 'n concise view point i would have thought.
... makes sense to me .

i'd be very happy to end up ninth (though disappointed at missing out on finals experience)
if the timing was appropriate.
ie ... the next seasons goal (capabilities) was top 4.

If not ... wtf , are we wasting our time , given the current structures we play within.

[ace]

I want us to smash the hell out of them. I want to see Paul Little reduced to a blubberer.
Then I want the AFL to declare all results for the round void.
Counting points would disadvantage Adelaide and Geelong.
(2 points each is not much better than 0 points because it is not 4 points ).
This would mean that we may still be able to force Essendon above us on the ladder so that the drug cheats do not get a draft pick ahead of us.

Remember everyone how the drug cheats don't like to be reminded of their sins.

Everytime they score just a little imitation injection should register your disgust.

[Teflon]

No worries Kosi…

When looking at these teams, I guess you need to think about which list you think is closer to a flag…

Are North, Richmond or Essendon any closer to a flag than Melbourne?

While I don't want to stay down the bottom for along time, I can see that Melbourne are building an incredible list in the past few years, which we are not going to compete with unless we add some more genuine A-graders.

I absolutely think that part of the reason we have shed Goddard, Dal Santo & McEvoy was to make us less competitive in the short term to ensure we finish low and gather very early picks… which in reality is just another form of tanking IMO. This form I am okay with, deliberately losing actual games is completely unacceptable.

spot on Dragit

and in Kos's frantic attempts not to insult your intelligence he delicately ignores the perfect logic of your post above which many have also espoused. Kos's posts provide little real evidence of anything cause the point isn't about finishing 9th at all.....its about being mid range, mediocre and kidding yourself youre near a flag.
Take North - lost to struggling Suns today, hanging on to Boomer cause he told us he wants 1 more year to win a flag ?(sure Boomer) and topped up with Dal Santo cause they obviously feel theyre on the cusp. I think theyre delusional and Im not interested in that at all - EVEN IF THEY WIN MORE GAMES SHORT TERM THAN US.

It really is that simple. I think the Dogs and Melbourne are actually list wise in amuch better spot than Norf and with the talent stock piled when they do challenge will have a serious shot at it. I also still highly doubt Richmond for that matter.

Kos doesn't acknowledge that he plays semantics to avoid a genuine consideration that maybe there is more than 1 road to 'winning' and the short road now isn't necessarily the best or smartest??