Armo - A lesson for Dunstan

[skeptic]

I have to say that I feel quite sorry for David Armitage...

They guy has hit his straps this season after being a rather notorious under-performer over the last 5+ seasons.

Many of us had given up on the idea of him ever being an A-Grader and when rumours surfaced in the off-season of an offer from Richmond for pick 12, the idea was met with at least some support.

IMO the lesson to be learned from Armo's case is that some players simply need to get experience, and steadily build up to hit their straps.
Certainly i don't think David was ever a VFL superstar demanding his spot in the side either... He started playing more consistently in the Watters era especially essentially when we needed him in the team as opposed to him banging the door down.

The thing though is that David has been heavily criticised for a long time. He cemented his spot in the team after Harvey left, Hayes was past his best, Goddard and Ball both left with Dal to follow a season or 2 later, Monty and Ray past their respective bests though still playing well enough, Peake fell off the radar as quickly as he came on etc etc

About the only midfielder we had over that time that even remotely stepped up was Steven.

So my point is that in this time when Armitage started getting regular and consistent games, he had less support and maximum attention from the opposition and in a way, i think he was hung out to dry. I don't mean to open the age old debate of the Lyon era again but he would have done soooo much better (IMO) as the 4th or 5th mid in the team next to Hayes, Dal, Monty, BJ, Goddard etc in terms of development.

I worry now about Dunstan. Second year player, looks very promising however, due to lack of quality around him, he has taken on the role as required player in our team, especially the engine room rather than that of developing player.
AND... he is wearing criticism... A lot of criticism when he fails to meet these standards.

A lot of people are arguing that this season is too early for FA as we're too far away from peeking. I think that we need to get at least a quality mid into the team now to aide the development of our kids in the middle.

Thoughts?

[lewdogs]

I love the way Dunstan is going about it this year. Can't beieve he's only 19 or so.

Personally I think Steven and Armo didn't get the opportunities back in the Lyon years and that's what cost them for a while. If they'd played when they should have (ie in 09/10 gfs) they would have been better earlier.

Dunstan is going along very nicely, and thankfully those guys are there to give him support.

Having said that, would love a cheeky gun FA. Realistically, Danger is the only one left now that Hannebury is gone.

[plugger66]

I love the way Dunstan is going about it this year. Can't beieve he's only 19 or so.

Personally I think Steven and Armo didn't get the opportunities back in the Lyon years and that's what cost them for a while. If they'd played when they should have (ie in 09/10 gfs) they would have been better earlier.

Dunstan is going along very nicely, and thankfully those guys are there to give him support.

Having said that, would love a cheeky gun FA. Realistically, Danger is the only one left now that Hannebury is gone.

A bit of a myth that one. Armo played 12 games in his second year and we were a good side back then and Jack had bad groins for his first 3 years and to get the best out of Jack he needs to be fully fit. As for Dunstan he is going well but I don't see any special tricks. He needs to add something to his game because of the pace issue. Hopefully he can.

[gringo]

The second year blues thing happens to a lot of players. I had it explained as when a guy starts out he plays on adrenalin but by second year the adrenalin drops and the heavy work load drags your energy levels down. They hit a sweet spot where they lose the nerves completely and play with less of a mental burden at some point.

[Milne]

I don't feel sorry for Armo. Some players take longer than others to hit their true potential.

Dunstan is only 19 and has a lot of development to go.

Don't forget Lenny took awhile to come good.

[maverick]

I agree we need to add another quality mid now.
When we are contending in 18-19 we need 28/29 year olds like Lenny was in 2008/2009.
The Hawks had Crawford (and Croad) alongside their young guns in '08, one of the main reasons they won…..

Dunstan will be fine, will end up a good solid 200 gamer, just what we need to support the real elite….

[Hallalj#3]

I love the way Dunstan is going about it this year. Can't beieve he's only 19 or so.

Personally I think Steven and Armo didn't get the opportunities back in the Lyon years and that's what cost them for a while. If they'd played when they should have (ie in 09/10 gfs) they would have been better earlier.

Dunstan is going along very nicely, and thankfully those guys are there to give him support.

Having said that, would love a cheeky gun FA. Realistically, Danger is the only one left now that Hannebury is gone.

Gee People tend to forget what actually happend in those years.

Armo played in the 08 Final series, was carrying a Knee in early 09 and obviously couldn't break in.

We weren't all that concerned that Ball left because we had Armo waiting in the wings and were hoping he took the next step. He was Starting Ruck Rover in the first 4 rounds of the 10 season but just wasn't cutting it.

Again in 2011 Armo was given the first shot at Starting Onball but just wouldn't wok hard enough the other way hence why he finished the year across HF and guess who took the reigns in the Middle? Jack Steven, Steven had OP in 09,10. 2011 was his coming out party and was great the second half of that yr and 1 of the reasons we made the finals that year.

Lyon cops the blame on here I don't know why becuase if we had this adminstration in then rather then now my guess is he would still be St kilda Coach.

[saintsRrising]

Armo is making it now because he worked harder in the preseason than he ever did.

He lost kilos and increased his tank and is now damaging on the run and spread more so than he ever was.

This is the key difference.

Yes experience has helped as it always does.

Rumour has it too that he gave up the party lifestyle he that he was enjoying a bit too much.

[spert]

Just wondering how Ross and Dunstan fit in the team together? Both have good skills but seem slow and steady without having a lot of short burst speed. Armo is benefitting from a big preseason and getting his body right.

[saintspremiers]

Our past admin were a disgrace and largely to blame for Ro$$y leaving us. That I agree with.

[spert]

Our past admin were a disgrace and largely to blame for Ro$$y leaving us. That I agree with.

I wonder where the extra few million min. was going to come from to keep RL? Though I agree the previous bunch running the club totally took the foot off the accelerator.

[whiskers3614]

Our past admin were a disgrace and largely to blame for Ro$$y leaving us. That I agree with.

I wonder where the extra few million min. was going to come from to keep RL? Though I agree the previous bunch running the club totally took the foot off the accelerator.

Can't believe this ongoing obsession of Saints fans with Lyon.
Has shown zero inclination to rebuild a lesser list/ and an propensity to fall at the ultimate hurdle with a better list.

[skeptic]

Am a bit miffed as to where this thread has gone.

The facts are:
Armo has played more consistently over the last four seasons than before than
Armo has been one of the more maligned/criticised players over the same period prior to this season (on this forum)
Luke Dunstan is performing at or above expectations for a second year player (on this forum)
Luke Dunstan has been subjected to a reasonable amount criticism esp RE his outside game (on this forum)

The hypothesis is:
The injection of 1 or 2 seasoned mids would have/will reduce the pressure/expectation for the younger players and (not yet mentioned) assist in their development.


The Red Herrings are:
Focusing on why RL did/didn't play him more
Armo's improved training /fitness and reduction of partying (heard this at least every off-season for 3+ years)

[gringo]

I agree we need to add another quality mid now.
When we are contending in 18-19 we need 28/29 year olds like Lenny was in 2008/2009.
The Hawks had Crawford (and Croad) alongside their young guns in '08, one of the main reasons they won…..

Dunstan will be fine, will end up a good solid 200 gamer, just what we need to support the real elite….

Dunny had a great game last night, probably his best for the year. He was really up and about and worked hard under pressure which helped link the whole team up. He kept finding space even when it wasn't easy.

[plugger66]

Our past admin were a disgrace and largely to blame for Ro$$y leaving us. That I agree with.

I wonder where the extra few million min. was going to come from to keep RL? Though I agree the previous bunch running the club totally took the foot off the accelerator.

Can't believe this ongoing obsession of Saints fans with Lyon.
Has shown zero inclination to rebuild a lesser list/ and an propensity to fall at the ultimate hurdle with a better list.

For a side that has won one GF in 142 years I think he deserves fascination. As for rebuilding the list well it doesn't help with out pathetic recruiting of young kids until about 2 years ago. I cant understand people who never said a word until he left.

[bergholt]

The facts are:
Armo has played more consistently over the last four seasons than before than
Armo has been one of the more maligned/criticised players over the same period prior to this season (on this forum)
Luke Dunstan is performing at or above expectations for a second year player (on this forum)
Luke Dunstan has been subjected to a reasonable amount criticism esp RE his outside game (on this forum)

The hypothesis is:
The injection of 1 or 2 seasoned mids would have/will reduce the pressure/expectation for the younger players and (not yet mentioned) assist in their development.

I agree but I wouldn't overpay for one. If we could pick up someone even only as good as Rosa or Sam Gibson or maybe Curnow, I think it might do exactly what you say. Gives us another big, seasoned body in the rotations which gives the youngsters a bit more space to breathe and learn a bit at a time. This is different to Ray because he's never quite been good enough to play in the guts, and different to Schneider because he's a bit small to really take the heat and maybe too old.

But again, you wouldn't want to pay more than pick 40+ for them. Pick 48 + Gilbert/Ray would be the perfect price for Matt Rosa, for instance. Not a superstar but big and pretty reliable.


I also think the Armo comparison is a good one. He didn't have breakaway pace in the first 7 years of his career. In fact none of his physical attributes were quite there (though mentally he's always been good). Took years of pre-seasons to get him to the point where he can run all day and also break away from a pack when necessary. Quite possibly the same is true of Dunstan, though I think he's shown more at a younger age than Armo did so the sky's the limit.

[skeptic]

The facts are:
Armo has played more consistently over the last four seasons than before than
Armo has been one of the more maligned/criticised players over the same period prior to this season (on this forum)
Luke Dunstan is performing at or above expectations for a second year player (on this forum)
Luke Dunstan has been subjected to a reasonable amount criticism esp RE his outside game (on this forum)

The hypothesis is:
The injection of 1 or 2 seasoned mids would have/will reduce the pressure/expectation for the younger players and (not yet mentioned) assist in their development.

I agree but I wouldn't overpay for one. If we could pick up someone even only as good as Rosa or Sam Gibson or maybe Curnow, I think it might do exactly what you say. Gives us another big, seasoned body in the rotations which gives the youngsters a bit more space to breathe and learn a bit at a time. This is different to Ray because he's never quite been good enough to play in the guts, and different to Schneider because he's a bit small to really take the heat and maybe too old.

But again, you wouldn't want to pay more than pick 40+ for them. Pick 48 + Gilbert/Ray would be the perfect price for Matt Rosa, for instance. Not a superstar but big and pretty reliable.


I also think the Armo comparison is a good one. He didn't have breakaway pace in the first 7 years of his career. In fact none of his physical attributes were quite there (though mentally he's always been good). Took years of pre-seasons to get him to the point where he can run all day and also break away from a pack when necessary. Quite possibly the same is true of Dunstan, though I think he's shown more at a younger age than Armo did so the sky's the limit.

Really good post

[skeptic]

Our past admin were a disgrace and largely to blame for Ro$$y leaving us. That I agree with.

I wonder where the extra few million min. was going to come from to keep RL? Though I agree the previous bunch running the club totally took the foot off the accelerator.

Can't believe this ongoing obsession of Saints fans with Lyon.
Has shown zero inclination to rebuild a lesser list/ and an propensity to fall at the ultimate hurdle with a better list.

For a side that has won one GF in 142 years I think he deserves fascination. As for rebuilding the list well it doesn't help with out pathetic recruiting of young kids until about 2 years ago. I cant understand people who never said a word until he left.

Am curious plugs, r u referring to me with ur last sentence

[plugger66]

Our past admin were a disgrace and largely to blame for Ro$$y leaving us. That I agree with.

I wonder where the extra few million min. was going to come from to keep RL? Though I agree the previous bunch running the club totally took the foot off the accelerator.

Can't believe this ongoing obsession of Saints fans with Lyon.
Has shown zero inclination to rebuild a lesser list/ and an propensity to fall at the ultimate hurdle with a better list.

For a side that has won one GF in 142 years I think he deserves fascination. As for rebuilding the list well it doesn't help with out pathetic recruiting of young kids until about 2 years ago. I cant understand people who never said a word until he left.

Am curious plugs, r u referring to me with ur last sentence

No not at all. Anyone who never said a word until he left.

[saintsRrising]

The Red Herrings are:

Armo's improved training /fitness and reduction of partying (heard this at least every off-season for 3+ years)

You may have heard it every preseason for 3+ years....but this year was the year that he actually shed the kilos. Body shape has also visibly changed.

"He's lost a significant amount of weight. He's not only able to win the ball on the inside, but he's able to give us some good run on the outside."
http://www.afl.com.au/news/2015-05-09/a ... is-the-man

Over summer, Armitage had a reboot. He had a conversation with his coach, Alan Richardson, who encouraged him to lose some weight to improve his running and outside game. The coach likened him to Hawthorn's vice captain Jordan Lewis, a midfielder with similar hard nut attributes, who had grafted an elite outside game on to his rugged interior, thereby increasing his possession rate.

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/s ... hi6ew.html

Red Herring? I think not.

[skeptic]

Red herring to the thread i mean SRS,

My focus in this thread isn't what/why/how he improved... A point i think ur pbly correct in, it's how we could have helped him earlier

[saynta]

Our past admin were a disgrace and largely to blame for Ro$$y leaving us. That I agree with.

I wonder where the extra few million min. was going to come from to keep RL? Though I agree the previous bunch running the club totally took the foot off the accelerator.

Can't believe this ongoing obsession of Saints fans with Lyon.
Has shown zero inclination to rebuild a lesser list/ and an propensity to fall at the ultimate hurdle with a better list.

Never have truer words been spoken on this forum.