I'm torn...

[Old Mate]

Talent identification is far better than it once was. You can pretty much nail the top picks so long as you develop them right once they are in the system. This is why pick 3 is far better than pick 8, as an example. Of course there are exceptions to the rule and other factors that contribute to later picks being better than earlier picks.

Fwiw Jack Billings will be far superior to Bontempelli IMO.

In this draft there's certainly a gap between the best 4-5 in the draft and the next rung. Give me wins but also a top 5 draft pick thanks. It's a fine line.

[SaintPav]

I've said pick 5 or below all thread - from whatIve read Parish will do me

me too - parish has the potential to be an absolute gun.

I do want to make sure of it though if there is any doubt
You want us to finish 9th though right???
I mean you're allanout maximising all remaining games as wins right?
So you don't want a top 5 pick at all and that to me would do us a long term disservice
As for your culture of success - starts with talent cause u so t getting much success without it

A top ten pick would be fine, there has been many a top ten that has gone well.

I am not expecting us to finish 9th. Looking at our last 6 games I doubt we will win one of them.

My premis is that if they did finish 9th, it means our development is way ahead of schedule and I would be very happy.

If we finish with a top 5 pick and pick Parish, I will be very happy.

I see it as a win/win situation when the team is rebuilding.

Oh and your PoV is valid and you are not a troll as some have tried to label you.

I disagree with your PoV however it doesn't mean we both don't want the same thing in the end.

Robust discussions are good, this has not turned ugly, and should continue if there are valid points to be made.

All good.

That's not good enough.

We need to deliberately lose to make a certainty of it. For example, we should have lost to Brisbane as there was nothing to be gained.

We need to tank.

TANK!

[The Fireman]

Talent identification is far better than it once was. You can pretty much nail the top picks so long as you develop them right once they are in the system. This is why pick 3 is far better than pick 8, as an example. Of course there are exceptions to the rule and other factors that contribute to later picks being better than earlier picks.

Fwiw Jack Billings will be far superior to Bontempelli IMO.

In this draft there's certainly a gap between the best 4-5 in the draft and the next rung. Give me wins but also a top 5 draft pick thanks. It's a fine line.

yep.

[asiu]

Dont get caught Tanking then.
... thats not cricket.

Bit like this place ... there's the Spirit of the Rules to be taken into account also.

[Old Mate]

There's a difference between tanking and not doing everything in your power to win.

Tanking is deliberately trying to lose ie moving players into unusual positions or benching your stars when the game is tight. That's what Melbourne got busted for. ALL clubs will do other things like rest players with 'soreness' or put them in for early operations prematurely ending their season.

Now of course the 22 players selected and coach (excluding Melb) will be doing everything they can to win in, that's human nature....but if you don't have the cattle...

Fact is, the pros in the afl system agree with the minority on here...it's all about flags and putting yourself in finals contention to be a chance.

[plugger66]

There's a difference between tanking and not doing everything in your power to win.

Tanking is deliberately trying to lose ie moving players into unusual positions or benching your stars when the game is tight. That's what Melbourne got busted for. ALL clubs will do other things like rest players with 'soreness' or put them in for early operations prematurely ending their season.

Now of course the 22 players selected and coach (excluding Melb) will be doing everything they can to win in, that's human nature....but if you don't have the cattle...

Fact is, the pros in the afl system agree with the minority on here...it's all about flags and putting yourself in finals contention to be a chance.

Who on here disagrees with your last comment. I doubt anyone. They disagree with how it is done and it isn't done hoping to lose a prescribed amount of games that no one seems to have the courage to say. I want to win every game. I reckon we may win 3 more. Obviously everyone who wants to finish as long as we can must want us to lose this week as we are playing a side that will go ahead of us if they win. It makes more sense to lose to those sides than a top side because they aren't taking our position down the bottom end of the ladder. Who cares about that though. Lets just win this week. The losses will take care of themselves because we aren't a good side yet.

[gringo]

Talent identification is far better than it once was. You can pretty much nail the top picks so long as you develop them right once they are in the system. This is why pick 3 is far better than pick 8, as an example. Of course there are exceptions to the rule and other factors that contribute to later picks being better than earlier picks.

Fwiw Jack Billings will be far superior to Bontempelli IMO.

In this draft there's certainly a gap between the best 4-5 in the draft and the next rung. Give me wins but also a top 5 draft pick thanks. It's a fine line.

yep.

I think it depends on the draft. This year isn't the deepest to me and so a top 6 pick is probably a lot higher currency than the last 2 years which both seemed have some real quality right into the second round. Billings year 2013 was very deep with some absolute guns still at teens picks. I think Kade Koladjashnij looks a gun and Collingwood haven't even played Scharenberg or Freeman who are both likely to be very good players. Then guys like Dumont went much later and could be very high output mids. I think it will be like the Judd, Ball, Hodge draft where there will be a huge amount of top players from that one.

[Old Mate]

I think we would love Darcy Parish. Good chance with Francis, Weitering and Schache a chance to go too 3.

[saintsRrising]

You want us to finish 9th though right???

What I want? Pretty easy answer to win every game. What I want, and what will happen are different things in many cases.

Why would I want to finish 9th in particular?

I mean you're allanout maximising all remaining games as wins right?

Indeed

So you don't want a top 5 pick at all

My first preference would be pick 18


You are a very confused person Teflon. Very.

You also have trible confusing what a person thinks may happen with what will happen.

I would love to swap Simpkin for pick 1. Doubt it will happen though.

I suspect we will gain pick 3 to 7.

I don't want us to tank nor do I want the club to cheat by other means whether it be be by drugs or salary cap or that pathetic tap by Harvey behind is opponents back.

I do want to support a team I have pride in, and doing their best to win each and every week achieves that.

Do I only support the Saints to win a Grand Final? No, and I feel sorry for those that do. I gain joy in some way each week. Whether that is catching up with mates at the game, watching how a kid is coming on, seeing a speccie or a great passage of play, or Roo or Geary put their body on the line yet again..

What I could not stomach is just watching team tank. Their would be no point supporting a team that deliberately just goes out to lose.

Odd to me too are tankers who want their supposed team to lose. I won't call them supporters for they are not.

and that to me would do us a long term disservice

Not as much as embracing losing.

[Austinnn]

Go Tiges !!

Go Swannies!! Go Cats!!

Have they a history of middle of the road 9th placed finishes?

You should at least read before posting...

I'm surprised you asked, since its common knowledge, but here goes:

Swans
1995 12
1996 2
1997 7
1998 5
1999 8
2000 10
2001 7
2002 11
2003 4
2004 5
2005 1
2006 2
2007 7
2008 6
2009 12
2010 5
2011 6
2012 1
2013 4
2014 2

Cats
1995 2
1996 7
1997 2
1998 12
1999 11
2000 5
2001 12
2002 9
2003 12
2004 4
2005 5
2006 10
2007 1
2008 2
2009 1
2010 3
2011 1
2012 6
2013 3
2014 5

In neither case, no lower than 12th in the last 20 years. A few mid table places. Never spend long in the bottom and certainly neither have followed the Teflon Theory.

Well Sydney have COLA I suppose. What's the Cats' secret?

[plugger66]

Go Tiges !!

Go Swannies!! Go Cats!!

Have they a history of middle of the road 9th placed finishes?

You should at least read before posting...

I'm surprised you asked, since its common knowledge, but here goes:

Swans
1995 12
1996 2
1997 7
1998 5
1999 8
2000 10
2001 7
2002 11
2003 4
2004 5
2005 1
2006 2
2007 7
2008 6
2009 12
2010 5
2011 6
2012 1
2013 4
2014 2

Cats
1995 2
1996 7
1997 2
1998 12
1999 11
2000 5
2001 12
2002 9
2003 12
2004 4
2005 5
2006 10
2007 1
2008 2
2009 1
2010 3
2011 1
2012 6
2013 3
2014 5

In neither case, no lower than 12th in the last 20 years. Quite a few 10th, 9th places. Never spend long in the bottom and certainly neither have followed the Teflon Theory.

Well Sydney have COLA I suppose. What's the Cats' secret?

Whiskers.

[Austinnn]

Did Gary Hocking play in all those years?

[plugger66]

Did Gary Hocking play in all those years?

Yes.

[bergholt]

Collingwood were also 'graced' an undeserved Priority pick as well weren't they ?
... level playing field it is and all that tosh.

For a few years there were a lot of priority picks:

Collingwood 1999 for winning 4 games
Fremantle 1999 for winning 5 games
St Kilda 2000 for winning 2.5 games
Fremantle 2001 for winning 2 games
St Kilda 2001 for winning 4 games
West Coast 2001 for winning 5 games
Carlton missed one in 2002 when they won 3 games but had salary cap penalties
St Kilda missed one in 2002 when we won 5.5 games
Bulldogs 2003 for winning 3.5 games
Carlton 2003 for winning 4 games
Melbourne 2003 for winning 5 games
Richmond 2004 for winning 4 games
Hawthorn 2004 for winning 4 games
Bulldogs 2004 for winning 5 games
Carlton 2005 for winning 4.5 games
Collingwood 2005 for winning 5 games
Hawthorn 2005 for winning 5 games
Carlton 2007 for winning 7.5 games over two years
Melbourne 2009 for winning 7 games over two years

Heaps of priority picks between 1999 and 2005, more than half the comp benefited in one of those years. Which one was Collingwood's "undeserved" one?

[Finna]

Teflon, do you want us to beat Melbourne on Sunday?

Yes or no?

Pav I don't ever want to lose to anyone ever but I do want the best possible chance to bring talent into our side so that we can compete with the best, so for me to achieve that short term we will need to drop some games. Right now the draft is still one of the best chances at doing that and it's the system that rewards a lower finish. Thems facts.
But if it is the difference between securing a top 5 pick for our club right now versus pick 6 or 7 (depending on who finished where), I'm not fussed if we drop a game or 2 along the way
If that's Melbourne so be it
I don't want that but you can't always have what you want they tell me..

Do you think a loss to Melbourne this week will set us back a decade?
If a loss to Melbourne meant dropping to pick 6 or 7 (over a top 5 pick 5) would you really care?

No but they are rhetoric questions.

They are simple questions
Would you prefer to win against Melbourne and drop 1 or 2 places with our pick or not?

Why are they the choices? It could play out any number of ways.

I'd rather beat Melbourne and end up where we're supposed to end up and to paraphrase Marcus Aurelius, we should just accept the fate which binds us...

It takes courage to say what you really think Pav but I'm a realist and understand not all are equal in the spine department so I won't hold it against you for squibbing it on this one.... but I get the feeling if we drop to the Dees by 9 pts you'll be relieved..

That aside, you'll excuse me in future for not answering any questions you might put up

Funny stuff Mate. To think that being able to say what you really think on a fan forum defines courage.....

There is irony in that
Of course it doesn't but courage gets thrown round here by many and I don't see you espousing the same view to others... want to be liked or scared?
You catch on quick

Not sure what you are trying to say. I have no desire to be liked or scared. I mean seriously it's a footy fans forum.

[Finna]

There are lots of ways to not try as hard that don't involve players so that impact is zilch
I agree there are absolutely no impacts on the club in future at all from dropping this game so meh get the picks
I've never said lose all games - that's you lying again (drink does that). In fact some wins mean more eg the Dogscome from behind was worth it.... anything against Collingwood grab it.... Actually, any current top 8 side but that won't happen so we come back to reality....
What do we get from beating up lowly Brisbane??? Not much
I think wins overall short term are overrated so some fans feel better all alone on Sunday nights
I doubt you've bee involved in a club period - that involves human interaction which I'm tipping ain't a strong suit

I tell you what we got from beating a lowly Brisbane......My 9 year old son who was convinced by his Grandfather to follow the Blues last year came to the Brisbane game with me two weeks ago. We don't get too many chances to go to Saints games living in QLD.

He loved it, got a SAINTS jumper and asked me to sign him up as a member. He can't wait till we are in Melbourne in a few weeks to go watch the Saints and wants to go to training so he can get his jumper signed!

That win got us a supporter, just like the Melbourne win this week might do as well.

That's great
My 9 yr old likes footy, then soccer, then air guitar it sortof rotates kids are kids big deal usually the determination of who they follow ain't off the back of 1 game.... It's parents /friends influence most of the time
Nice story though - just imagine how he'll feel when we the flag having drafted the next Buddy cause we managed a top 5 pick 2015!!

You miss the point. That win won us a supporter and a new member. Winning has that effect and not just on 9 year old kids.

If winning gets members = money and more people and more sponsors. Then losing gets you the opposite. It's about more than draft picks.

Yep, a winning culture = money, better players, more supporters and a future......

Melbourne may never full recovery from the last 15 years and the same coming for Carlton...

[Teflon]

I've said pick 5 or below all thread - from whatIve read Parish will do me

me too - parish has the potential to be an absolute gun.

I do want to make sure of it though if there is any doubt
You want us to finish 9th though right???
I mean you're allanout maximising all remaining games as wins right?
So you don't want a top 5 pick at all and that to me would do us a long term disservice
As for your culture of success - starts with talent cause u so t getting much success without it

A top ten pick would be fine, there has been many a top ten that has gone well.

I am not expecting us to finish 9th. Looking at our last 6 games I doubt we will win one of them.

My premis is that if they did finish 9th, it means our development is way ahead of schedule and I would be very happy.

If we finish with a top 5 pick and pick Parish, I will be very happy.

I see it as a win/win situation when the team is rebuilding.

Oh and your PoV is valid and you are not a troll as some have tried to label you.

I disagree with your PoV however it doesn't mean we both don't want the same thing in the end.

Robust discussions are good, this has not turned ugly, and should continue if there are valid points to be made.

All good.

Agree Bunk it's a different perspective and all are understandable and yes footy is an emotional game I hate losing too.... but I'm at a stage I'll do whatever it takes to get that flag.....

[Teflon]

Talent identification is far better than it once was. You can pretty much nail the top picks so long as you develop them right once they are in the system. This is why pick 3 is far better than pick 8, as an example. Of course there are exceptions to the rule and other factors that contribute to later picks being better than earlier picks.

Fwiw Jack Billings will be far superior to Bontempelli IMO.

In this draft there's certainly a gap between the best 4-5 in the draft and the next rung. Give me wins but also a top 5 draft pick thanks. It's a fine line.

Nailed it!

[plugger66]

Talent identification is far better than it once was. You can pretty much nail the top picks so long as you develop them right once they are in the system. This is why pick 3 is far better than pick 8, as an example. Of course there are exceptions to the rule and other factors that contribute to later picks being better than earlier picks.

Fwiw Jack Billings will be far superior to Bontempelli IMO.

In this draft there's certainly a gap between the best 4-5 in the draft and the next rung. Give me wins but also a top 5 draft pick thanks. It's a fine line.

Nailed it!

Well to nail pick 3 we may have to lose every game.

[Teflon]

There are lots of ways to not try as hard that don't involve players so that impact is zilch
I agree there are absolutely no impacts on the club in future at all from dropping this game so meh get the picks
I've never said lose all games - that's you lying again (drink does that). In fact some wins mean more eg the Dogscome from behind was worth it.... anything against Collingwood grab it.... Actually, any current top 8 side but that won't happen so we come back to reality....
What do we get from beating up lowly Brisbane??? Not much
I think wins overall short term are overrated so some fans feel better all alone on Sunday nights
I doubt you've bee involved in a club period - that involves human interaction which I'm tipping ain't a strong suit

I tell you what we got from beating a lowly Brisbane......My 9 year old son who was convinced by his Grandfather to follow the Blues last year came to the Brisbane game with me two weeks ago. We don't get too many chances to go to Saints games living in QLD.

He loved it, got a SAINTS jumper and asked me to sign him up as a member. He can't wait till we are in Melbourne in a few weeks to go watch the Saints and wants to go to training so he can get his jumper signed!

That win got us a supporter, just like the Melbourne win this week might do as well.

That's great
My 9 yr old likes footy, then soccer, then air guitar it sortof rotates kids are kids big deal usually the determination of who they follow ain't off the back of 1 game.... It's parents /friends influence most of the time
Nice story though - just imagine how he'll feel when we the flag having drafted the next Buddy cause we managed a top 5 pick 2015!!

You miss the point. That win won us a supporter and a new member. Winning has that effect and not just on 9 year old kids.

If winning gets members = money and more people and more sponsors. Then losing gets you the opposite. It's about more than draft picks.

Yep, a winning culture = money, better players, more supporters and a future......

Melbourne may never full recovery from the last 15 years and the same coming for Carlton...

No I understand your point - it's just lame that's all and no one is suggesting we do a Melbourne that's just you being hysterical
Man up (even on a footy forum), back your club and we'll be just fine with a few losses in the short - mid term and get Parish
Rest of your post is rhetoric that's already been said in the thread

[Teflon]

Talent identification is far better than it once was. You can pretty much nail the top picks so long as you develop them right once they are in the system. This is why pick 3 is far better than pick 8, as an example. Of course there are exceptions to the rule and other factors that contribute to later picks being better than earlier picks.

Fwiw Jack Billings will be far superior to Bontempelli IMO.

In this draft there's certainly a gap between the best 4-5 in the draft and the next rung. Give me wins but also a top 5 draft pick thanks. It's a fine line.

Nailed it!

Well to nail pick 3 we may have to lose every game.

May being the operative word we'll see
But a gun young mid in Parish isn't what we need??
Let's get him...

[plugger66]

Talent identification is far better than it once was. You can pretty much nail the top picks so long as you develop them right once they are in the system. This is why pick 3 is far better than pick 8, as an example. Of course there are exceptions to the rule and other factors that contribute to later picks being better than earlier picks.

Fwiw Jack Billings will be far superior to Bontempelli IMO.

In this draft there's certainly a gap between the best 4-5 in the draft and the next rung. Give me wins but also a top 5 draft pick thanks. It's a fine line.

Nailed it!

Well to nail pick 3 we may have to lose every game.

May being the operative word we'll see
But a gun young mid in Parish isn't what we need??
Let's get him...

And we may need pick one to get him. The phantom drafts aren't always right especially this early in the year. To get pick one we need to lose all games and hope 2 or 3 sides improve.

[Teflon]

Go Tiges !!

Go Swannies!! Go Cats!!

Have they a history of middle of the road 9th placed finishes?

You should at least read before posting...

I'm surprised you asked, since its common knowledge, but here goes:

Swans
1995 12
1996 2
1997 7
1998 5
1999 8
2000 10
2001 7
2002 11
2003 4
2004 5
2005 1
2006 2
2007 7
2008 6
2009 12
2010 5
2011 6
2012 1
2013 4
2014 2

Cats
1995 2
1996 7
1997 2
1998 12
1999 11
2000 5
2001 12
2002 9
2003 12
2004 4
2005 5
2006 10
2007 1
2008 2
2009 1
2010 3
2011 1
2012 6
2013 3
2014 5

In neither case, no lower than 12th in the last 20 years. A few mid table places. Never spend long in the bottom and certainly neither have followed the Teflon Theory.

Well Sydney have COLA I suppose. What's the Cats' secret?

What a bizarre post that makes my point??
Sydney have 0 9th placed finish in that list ,Cats 1

1 club has been heavily backed by the AFL for years
The other has had a wealth of Father Son gifts (Ablett for a 3rd rounder??)
Wonder why they don't bottom out?????
Ironically, Cats have a lean year in 2006, drop out of 8 ..... get a gun draft pick up in Sellwood now their captain and prime mover ??
I reckon if you said to Geelong - how bout you guys win 1 or 2 more in 06 and skip J Sellwood they'd say
"Nah thanks.... bigger dynasty's to build thanks..."

[Teflon]

I think we would love Darcy Parish. Good chance with Francis, Weitering and Schache a chance to go too 3.

Could not agree more
We desperately need midfield class - must have
No mid table finish for me thanks- could not care less bout short term glories

[plugger66]

Go Tiges !!

Go Swannies!! Go Cats!!

Have they a history of middle of the road 9th placed finishes?

You should at least read before posting...

I'm surprised you asked, since its common knowledge, but here goes:

Swans
1995 12
1996 2
1997 7
1998 5
1999 8
2000 10
2001 7
2002 11
2003 4
2004 5
2005 1
2006 2
2007 7
2008 6
2009 12
2010 5
2011 6
2012 1
2013 4
2014 2

Cats
1995 2
1996 7
1997 2
1998 12
1999 11
2000 5
2001 12
2002 9
2003 12
2004 4
2005 5
2006 10
2007 1
2008 2
2009 1
2010 3
2011 1
2012 6
2013 3
2014 5

In neither case, no lower than 12th in the last 20 years. A few mid table places. Never spend long in the bottom and certainly neither have followed the Teflon Theory.

Well Sydney have COLA I suppose. What's the Cats' secret?

What a bizarre post that makes my point??
Sydney have 0 9th placed finish in that list ,Cats 1

1 club has been heavily backed by the AFL for years
The other has had a wealth of Father Son gifts (Ablett for a 3rd rounder??)
Wonder why they don't bottom out?????
Ironically, Cats have a lean year in 2006, drop out of 8 ..... get a gun draft pick up in Sellwood now their captain and prime mover ??
I reckon if you said to Geelong - how bout you guys win 1 or 2 more in 06 and skip J Sellwood they'd say
"Nah thanks.... bigger dynasty's to build thanks..."

Yep got the gun player by finishing 10th so that's for backing up those who want to win as many as possible this year. Bet not many or any Geelong supporters were hoping they would drop out of the finals that year.