I'm torn...

[saintsRrising]

you clearly have no clue
we wont get near pick 1 IMHO that doesnt mean we should not, where we can, maximise our opportunities at getting the highest selection we can
That doesnt mean losing every week - its a balance and trade off.

Right now IMHO winning is not THE most important thing in our rebuild.

My order is:

1. Get talent (as much high end) in as we can to build from
2. Development/Experience
3. Wins

Winning will help in the short term and will give some small self belief that is fleeting at best. Getting talent in will ensure we have the capability to compete against the best. Develpment means we will be better for longer periods with greater consistency in games as our players skills/capability rises.


Im unsure why I am wasting this after a SR post....it will be lost on him but anyway......

I''ll take that as an admission that you were wrong on highest possible draft pick then.

[saint3d]

we wont get near pick 1 IMHO that doesnt mean we should not, where we can, maximise our opportunities at getting the highest selection we can
That doesnt mean losing every week - its a balance and trade off.

I've waded through all the defeated straw men in this thread and so far this is about as close as you've come to explaining your preferred strategy.

This idea of 'maximising our opportunities' can only mean losing games that may otherwise be winnable. Doesn't it? Or have I missed something?

I assume that's the trade off to which you refer. Trade some wins now for better selections in the draft. But not too many, apparently.

As an aside, nobody disputes that having pick 3 is better than having pick 5. No one. Anyone that does is deluded or attempting comedy, and their argument can be ignored.

So the question is how does the club go about trading wins for draft position? The obvious answer (I'm not trying to put words in anyone's mouth, but these concepts have been mentioned by some, including in this thread) is to 'play the kids' and to send players off for surgery before season's end and get them right for preseason. The trouble is that it's really difficult to dress that up as anything but tanking, and the consensus seems to be that tanking is bad.

'But what about the development?' I hear you (that's the proverbial you, not necessarily the actual you) ask, 'we need to get games into the kids!'

Let's consider a brand new recruit. He's selected on the basis that he's a teenager. He can play as poorly as he likes, but he'll still get picked next week. After all, his skills are sublime. The fact that he doesn't chase hard enough isn't really relevant. Until he hits the age of twenty, when he can't get picked for being a teenager any more. Now he has to bust his backside to stay in the team, except he's developed a habit over the last couple of years of not working hard, so he struggles.

Meanwhile, at some other club, the new recruit is told in no uncertain terms the effort required to get into the team. He sees older players, even those who won't be around when the team starts to rise up the ladder, busting their backsides. 'This is serious business,' he thinks to himself, 'better get to work'.

The first player has forty games under his belt. The second a mere fifteen. Which do you want at your club?

I know that hypothetical is slightly over the top, but if 'development' is the means by which you secure better draft picks, what exactly is it that you're developing?

[citywest]

To the pack of wolves out there that mis-quote and take everything out of context.
Best possible picks does not mean finishing last. In fact it is different every year depending on where you are likely to finish on the ladder when not contending for the top 8. We are currently 14th followed by Dees, Lions, Blues and Suns. The Bombers are 13th. If we won 8 games for the year and finished above Essendon (which is possible) I would be happy. But if we won 5 games for the year and showed that we are competitive in every loss and finished 16th then I would be a lot happier.

This is the last post for me on this topic. I was stupid for clearing out my Foe List and getting sucked in again by the usual suspects.

[skeptic]

There does seem to be some concrete thinking going on here

Putting things into context... There is def some words being put in mouths

[kosifantutti]

How about just answering Pluggers question, Teflon. Do you want us to win this week?

I dont think anyone 'wants' their team to lose - thats a myth.
IF my team were good enough to win every game from now till season end that be great - are we?
Should we lose this week and more kids get more game time so we learn from it....I can live with that.

Is that yes or no?

Or are you torn?

[bergholt]

we wont get near pick 1 IMHO that doesnt mean we should not, where we can, maximise our opportunities at getting the highest selection we can
That doesnt mean losing every week - its a balance and trade off.

I've waded through all the defeated straw men in this thread and so far this is about as close as you've come to explaining your preferred strategy.

This idea of 'maximising our opportunities' can only mean losing games that may otherwise be winnable. Doesn't it? Or have I missed something?

I assume that's the trade off to which you refer. Trade some wins now for better selections in the draft. But not too many, apparently.

As an aside, nobody disputes that having pick 3 is better than having pick 5. No one. Anyone that does is deluded or attempting comedy, and their argument can be ignored.

So the question is how does the club go about trading wins for draft position? The obvious answer (I'm not trying to put words in anyone's mouth, but these concepts have been mentioned by some, including in this thread) is to 'play the kids' and to send players off for surgery before season's end and get them right for preseason. The trouble is that it's really difficult to dress that up as anything but tanking, and the consensus seems to be that tanking is bad.

'But what about the development?' I hear you (that's the proverbial you, not necessarily the actual you) ask, 'we need to get games into the kids!'

Let's consider a brand new recruit. He's selected on the basis that he's a teenager. He can play as poorly as he likes, but he'll still get picked next week. After all, his skills are sublime. The fact that he doesn't chase hard enough isn't really relevant. Until he hits the age of twenty, when he can't get picked for being a teenager any more. Now he has to bust his backside to stay in the team, except he's developed a habit over the last couple of years of not working hard, so he struggles.

Meanwhile, at some other club, the new recruit is told in no uncertain terms the effort required to get into the team. He sees older players, even those who won't be around when the team starts to rise up the ladder, busting their backsides. 'This is serious business,' he thinks to himself, 'better get to work'.

The first player has forty games under his belt. The second a mere fifteen. Which do you want at your club?

I know that hypothetical is slightly over the top, but if 'development' is the means by which you secure better draft picks, what exactly is it that you're developing?

Good post.

[kosifantutti]

How about just answering Pluggers question, Teflon. Do you want us to win this week?

I dont see you requesting Pluggs answer my questions Kos?

Surely youre impartial and a 'mod for all' on here eh?

If there was a rule against not answering questions, you and Citywest would have been banned on page 1.

[plugger66]

How about just answering Pluggers question, Teflon. Do you want us to win this week?

I dont think anyone 'wants' their team to lose - thats a myth.
IF my team were good enough to win every game from now till season end that be great - are we?
Should we lose this week and more kids get more game time so we learn from it....I can live with that.

Read city west first post. he said the best thing for the club is to lose by 9 points. If its best for the club then its best for him. Losing by 9 or losing by 100 is still wanting them to lose so that myth was debunked in the first post. And it seems you know are on the our way of thinking. All we have said all along is we want the club to win as many games as possible and get the pick that gives us. We wont win many games but it seems you want to beat Melbourne this week. Im sure if I ask you next game you will want to win and so on. CW has said 2 weeks in a row he wants to lose because its best for the club. I will continue to argue that there is more than just pick 3 over pick 5 otherwise there would be no point in winning a game next year because everyone knows pick one is better than pick 2. The only way possible to ensure the best pick next year is to lose every single game. As no one can argue pick 3 isn't better than pick 5 no one can also argue pick one isn't better than pick 2. If others can ensure we can get pick one another way apart from losing every game im happy to hear it. I don't want to hear we are improving so it wont happen because that isnt the system. The system rewards poor play.

And what is this rubbish about people saying the best pick for us. Are we different from other clubs. The best pick for us is the same as the best pick for the Hawks. Its pick one. Its the system. hawks wont get pick one and I hope we dont either even though its impossible to say it isn't the best pick for us.

[saintsRrising]

Best possible picks does not mean finishing last. In fact it is different every year depending on where you are likely to finish on the ladder when not contending for the top 8.

What nonsense. The lower your pick, the better your choice of player. Pick 7 is always better to have than pick 9. Pick 12 is always better to have than pick 18.....and pick No1 is always the best to have. Pick 1 is also extra good to have as it is the most tradeable pick as any club trading for pick 1 knows exactly what player they can use to get with it.

Ask any club that finishes 10th, 8th, 4th etc if they will swap their pick for pick 1 as an equal trade and they will do so in a heartbeat!

If you have pick pick No 1, and that player is for example deemed by everyone to be a key forward by a country mile and you don't want a key forward, then you can trade that pick to another club who is desparate for a key forward for a more required player/s (including player/s ready to play senior football now, or for multiple draft picks.

Pick 1 is the best possible pick each and every year. Anyone that thinks otherwise clearly has no idea.

[Sainternist]

This is the last post for me on this topic. I was stupid for clearing out my Foe List and getting sucked in again by the usual suspects.

Quit whilst you're ahead. Sounds like a good idea, CW. You definitely succeeded with your thread here. The same vacuous debate, which has this time gone on for almost 20 pages.

Dear, oh dear...

I wanna know if you can branch out beyond the same old, same old topics of tanking, trading away star players and relocating to NZ.

[The Fireman]

this thread has some merit otherwise it wouldn't have lasted so long. It has created a fair bit of debate.

Anyway Sundays game has reminded us how far off the pace we are and how much better we need to be , taking that into consideration we need to take every advantage allowed to us this season and possibly next otherwise we could struggle for a decade being a middle of the road team. I want big results soon, I wanna be around for a flag.

[Bunk_Moreland]

Oh My God!

Are you seriously telling me that maximizing your choice means you MUST finish last and get pick 1?
Do you honestly expect us to finish last????? Can we not still maximise our choice and not finish last - are you telling me this cant be done?
Without any regard for the teams current status/development and that of those around them??

Bizarre, irrational, poorly thought out reply.

Restrain yourself man/woman.

maximize or maximise (ˈmæksɪˌmaɪz Pronunciation for )

Definitions


verb
1.(transitive) to make as high or great as possible; increase to a maximum


Great as possible is #1. I cant help it if you don't grasp basic concepts such as definitions

[plugger66]

this thread has some merit otherwise it wouldn't have lasted so long. It has created a fair bit of debate.

Anyway Sundays game has reminded us how far off the pace we are and how much better we need to be , taking that into consideration we need to take every advantage allowed to us this season and possibly next otherwise we could struggle for a decade being a middle of the road team. I want big results soon, I wanna be around for a flag.

Do you want to win on Sunday because surely taking every advantage is losing to a side level with you on the ladder?

[matrix]

[saintsRrising]

I wanna be around for a flag.

Well you can start waving your White One now.

[The Fireman]

I wanna be around for a flag.

Well you can start waving your White One now.

Maybe I will.

[The Fireman]

this thread has some merit otherwise it wouldn't have lasted so long. It has created a fair bit of debate.

Anyway Sundays game has reminded us how far off the pace we are and how much better we need to be , taking that into consideration we need to take every advantage allowed to us this season and possibly next otherwise we could struggle for a decade being a middle of the road team. I want big results soon, I wanna be around for a flag.

Do you want to win on Sunday because surely taking every advantage is losing to a side level with you on the ladder?

I'm torn

[plugger66]

this thread has some merit otherwise it wouldn't have lasted so long. It has created a fair bit of debate.

Anyway Sundays game has reminded us how far off the pace we are and how much better we need to be , taking that into consideration we need to take every advantage allowed to us this season and possibly next otherwise we could struggle for a decade being a middle of the road team. I want big results soon, I wanna be around for a flag.

Do you want to win on Sunday because surely taking every advantage is losing to a side level with you on the ladder?

I'm torn

Maybe make a thread with that title. It should be an easy decision if as you say we need to take every advantage allowed to us this season. My position is I want to win this week and then the following game and then the game after. I want to win 12 more games. Logic says we may win 2 or 3 but that doesn't matter. I will go on Sunday hoping we win as much as I hoped in the GF. It just wont mean as much if we lose obviously.

[Sainternist]

Would be a magnificent result if we could notch up three or four more wins for the season. The critics would be complimenting the club's efforts on improving considerably since last year and we'd still be vying for some good draft picks.
No wooden spoon for us this year. And I'm as pleased as punch for that. It's onwards and upwards for the mighty Saints. If you don't like it perhaps you should go to theatre to watch some of Shakespeare's tragedies instead. I hear John Bell putting on a production of Hamlet.

[Dr Spaceman]

If you don't like it perhaps you should go to theatre to watch some of Shakespeare's tragedies instead.

This was one of William Shakespeare's biggest tragedies

[plugger66]

If you don't like it perhaps you should go to theatre to watch some of Shakespeare's tragedies instead.

This was one of William Shakespeare's biggest tragedies

His second song was worse.

[The Fireman]

this thread has some merit otherwise it wouldn't have lasted so long. It has created a fair bit of debate.

Anyway Sundays game has reminded us how far off the pace we are and how much better we need to be , taking that into consideration we need to take every advantage allowed to us this season and possibly next otherwise we could struggle for a decade being a middle of the road team. I want big results soon, I wanna be around for a flag.

Do you want to win on Sunday because surely taking every advantage is losing to a side level with you on the ladder?

I'm torn

Maybe make a thread with that title. It should be an easy decision if as you say we need to take every advantage allowed to us this season. My position is I want to win this week and then the following game and then the game after. I want to win 12 more games. Logic says we may win 2 or 3 but that doesn't matter. I will go on Sunday hoping we win as much as I hoped in the GF. It just wont mean as much if we lose obviously.

I think you are starting to get it

[asiu]

I wanna be around for a flag.

Well you can start waving your White One now.

Maybe I will.

ahhhhhh hehehe
... tears rolling down cheeks

How funny it all is.

[The Fireman]

I wanna be around for a flag.

Well you can start waving your White One now.

Maybe I will.

ahhhhhh hehehe
... tears rolling down cheeks

How funny it all is.

[Teflon]

you clearly have no clue
we wont get near pick 1 IMHO that doesnt mean we should not, where we can, maximise our opportunities at getting the highest selection we can
That doesnt mean losing every week - its a balance and trade off.

Right now IMHO winning is not THE most important thing in our rebuild.

My order is:

1. Get talent (as much high end) in as we can to build from
2. Development/Experience
3. Wins

Winning will help in the short term and will give some small self belief that is fleeting at best. Getting talent in will ensure we have the capability to compete against the best. Develpment means we will be better for longer periods with greater consistency in games as our players skills/capability rises.


Im unsure why I am wasting this after a SR post....it will be lost on him but anyway......

I''ll take that as an admission that you were wrong on highest possible draft pick then.

Yep you got me Einstein - maximising draft selection options for Saints MUST mean we lose every remaining game plus all next year and the year after....

Sheesh what was I thinking tangling intellects with the cliche king from Moorabbin !!