I'm torn...

[Teflon]

a pick doesn't guarantee anything, of course I realise that but would still rather have the higher pick..which also has massive trade value. The chances of getting a better player with a high pick is better ...no ? I can't believe I am still trying to explain this.

I thought that would be a no brainer.

LOL its tough work Fireman eh?

The truth is IMO all clubs facing this type of decision I am sure privately send players off for late season ops or bring in kids cause they aint stupid, ofcourse publicly they'll say 'we do not believe in tanking and we go out to win every week....' and they do but its how they go about that is the clue.

Anyway, we'll get a high pick I hope (cause we are ordinary atm) and I just hope we snare an A grader cause IMO we are short in that area.

[Teflon]

I hear you Teflon ...some on here don't like to admit that they would like to see the side prepare( for want of a better word) for the future with high picks.
When it all boils down 1st pick is better than 2nd etc...no brainer..it's coming to grips with the short term losses and the bravado of saying "I only want to see wins"

I know you don't like losses...I don't either. We will have room in the cap fo FA players...but let's make this season our last High pick season, if it doesn't work at least we gave ourselves the best opportunity

Bang on Fireman and BFUSA nailed it perfectly also as well
Short term pain, use the system and be strategic in our rise - yes we have to choose well but that goes without saying
I'm genuinely amazed this isn't obvious and yep I too don't like losing BUT if losing has a longer term strategy attached to it I'm ok short term with it
We will rise (already showing signs), I just want to see us snag another A grader or 2 if we get the chance to put some real cream into that midfield.

Please answer a simple question.

Why cant we land another A grader or two by way of OOC, DFA or FA?

Considering we will half a mill more than every team on 100% SC and over a million more than we spend on SC this year why cant we get a GUARANTEED A grader instead of going for a potential A greader than wont show their true worth for another three seasons?

I have yet to see you answer this. Instead of willing the team to lose why not use the current trading rules.

And who is better this year Parish, Tucker, Balic, Francis? What happens if we choose a Tambling instead of a Franklin? What happens if we picka Petracca and they do their ACL before they have even played a game for us?

Really to completely ignore the FA, DFA, OOC trading rules now in place, to ignore the advantage we have over almost all other clubs in being sble to use 105% of the SC on FA and OOC's is quite bewildering.

To place all your eggs in one basket on some vague hope that an underdeveloped 18 y.o picked #3 instead of an underdeveloped 18.y.o picked @ #5 will develop in three or so years, while at the same time losing most games seems an extremely risky and short sighted strategy.

You want one or two more A graders. So do I.So go to FA and get them, and at the same time chose a kid in the top ten while getting the team to start winning more games.

I have seen Melbourne and Carlton and to a lesser extent Essendon, Richmond and North fiddle about for decades without getting to the top four. I dont want the Saints to do that on some vague hope of a possible top player in 3 or more years. Go get them in FA and be good next season and the seasons after.

What is it in this thread you dont get?
Where in this thread have I stated we must ignore all other options and just bring talent via the draft? please show me??????????

Honestly, keep up or leave it alone!

[Teflon]

Fitzroy chose to stuff themselves as they had no money and so chose to minimise salary by playing and paying for kids. For them it was to be uncompetitive vs not playing at all. As it turned out they only delayed the end.Fitzroy is why the salary cap rule came in.

I have a good idea what went on us my then boss looked after Fitzroy player welfare and i helped him with a few things as i new how grim things were.

I have a good idea too as I followed them up to their departure.

Fitzroy were rooted by the AFL who wanted expansion into Brisbane at all costs - even the bank guarantee to secure the loan the AFL couldve granted was an example of the AFL deciding Fitzroy were gone - EVEN after we learn years later Carltons finances were worse than Fitzroy's. EVEN after the North merger was scuttled by the AFL??

They had an agenda.

I too know people very well connected to Fitzroy including their last well know President but again dont let the facts get in the way....cause your telling me Fitzroy 'chose' to go out backwards...righto....

[Teflon]

I hear you Teflon ...some on here don't like to admit that they would like to see the side prepare( for want of a better word) for the future with high picks.
When it all boils down 1st pick is better than 2nd etc...no brainer..it's coming to grips with the short term losses and the bravado of saying "I only want to see wins"

I know you don't like losses...I don't either. We will have room in the cap fo FA players...but let's make this season our last High pick season, if it doesn't work at least we gave ourselves the best opportunity

Bang on Fireman and BFUSA nailed it perfectly also as well
Short term pain, use the system and be strategic in our rise - yes we have to choose well but that goes without saying
I'm genuinely amazed this isn't obvious and yep I too don't like losing BUT if losing has a longer term strategy attached to it I'm ok short term with it
We will rise (already showing signs), I just want to see us snag another A grader or 2 if we get the chance to put some real cream into that midfield.

Clutching



At



Straws.

A grader? Is there a rule that you cant get them at pick 4? Please explain that rule otherwise its just hot air and wasted words.

Out of arguments? No FA's will come to us wore thin didnt it?
We lose 2 more games and no FA's are coming to us??? the sky's falling....
Is there a rule that a pick higher than 4 cant securea gun? do show me
Questions are easy - dont hide behind youve already left other unanswered in this thread as you do when challenged....

I do agree with your earlier post though that any impacts from short term losses can not be measured and therefore may not even be material in the longer term......I truly thought a light bulb had gone on for you then......but now its not about arguing the point of thread anymore with you is it?

[Teflon]

Simple Question...does a high pick give you more power at the table come draft time? Re selecting the type of player or the trade value of that pick? than a lower pick ?


Is it better to have a higher pick than not?

I'm confused now.

Dont be confused, but there is no guarantee the recruiters will take the right player. We could take a Tambling and the next pick could be A Buddy (did actually happen)

So we get a pick @ # 5 after winning 7-8 games, we also pick up an A grader in FA, a trade like a Josh Bruce @ #48 and we also get much needed wins into the current young list. The player chosen #5 wont show anything until probably 2017-18.

We have #1 in 2014 and chose McCartin. Nobody knows if he will be any good, could be a Jack Watts or Bryce Squibbs, no guarantee the player picked high will be any good compared to a deadset A grader from FA

Geezus there is no guarantee at 48 either....there's no guarantee the we all wont get run over by a bus tomorrow its about maximising your CHOICE what you do after that is completely in the hands of the club but thats not the issue here - first you have to get that choice in front of others

It aint that hard surely!

[Teflon]

I hear you Teflon ...some on here don't like to admit that they would like to see the side prepare( for want of a better word) for the future with high picks.
When it all boils down 1st pick is better than 2nd etc...no brainer..it's coming to grips with the short term losses and the bravado of saying "I only want to see wins"

I know you don't like losses...I don't either. We will have room in the cap fo FA players...but let's make this season our last High pick season, if it doesn't work at least we gave ourselves the best opportunity

Bang on Fireman and BFUSA nailed it perfectly also as well
Short term pain, use the system and be strategic in our rise - yes we have to choose well but that goes without saying
I'm genuinely amazed this isn't obvious and yep I too don't like losing BUT if losing has a longer term strategy attached to it I'm ok short term with it
We will rise (already showing signs), I just want to see us snag another A grader or 2 if we get the chance to put some real cream into that midfield.

All I'm saying is that the Saints won't finish outside the bottom 5 anyway. We will get a good player by the fact we are s***. We could play out of our skins and still not get much higher than that. A top 5 pick is going to be very good. I would rather not lose games full stop.

Fair enough Gringo thats your view.
For mine another loss or 2 that locked in pick 3 in the long term wouldnt worry me - long as I see the trajectory of improvement that Im already seeing in multiple games....

Must say I wouldve loved pick 1 when Boyd was up for grabs.....costing Doggies $1m plus now......

[Teflon]

a pick doesn't guarantee anything, of course I realise that but would still rather have the higher pick..which also has massive trade value. The chances of getting a better player with a high pick is better ...no ? I can't believe I am still trying to explain this.

I thought that would be a no brainer.

I don't think anyone is disputing that. If you had a choice between pick one and pick 2, you would take pick one.

But you don't get a choice. You get pick one by being s*** and losing a lot of games.

That doesn't help our membership.
It doesn't help us attract sponsors.
It doesn't help the development and attitude of our current players.

I'm still waiting to hear about that Premiership team who finished at or near the bottom for three or more years and went on to win the flag with all those early draft picks.

You ALWAYS have a choice...to suggest you dont and sides dont/havent in the past is ignorant.

I think we'll be fine for sponsors if we secured the next Nick Riewoldt in the draft and members come and go already losing a game or 2 extra wont change that.

I havent read anyone in the thread saying Premiership sides are solely built off drafting alone - Im keen to read it do show me?

[Teflon]

Simple Question...does a high pick give you more power at the table come draft time? Re selecting the type of player or the trade value of that pick? than a lower pick ?


Is it better to have a higher pick than not?

I'm confused now.

It is best to have the last pick in the first round.

Or just dont answer the question again.....

Anyway, at least the cliches have dried up.

1 week at a time eh?

[citywest]

For people like Bunk and a few others, I thought I would re-post my OP. With all the hysteria going on I thought the best way to shut them all up was simply to copy and paste so all can see that there was nothing in my post saying I want the Saints to lose. To those that don't believe me please re-read.........

by citywest » Sun 31 May 2015 10:47am
My heart says I want St Kilda to win today but my head says otherwise. If we win today we go to 12 points and may well end up winning 6 to 8 games for the year (which would be great mind you). However, with the future in mind, it may be better in the long run if we play really well today, have no injuries and lose by 9 points. I just listened to Callum Twomey and Nat Edwards on the "Road To The Draft" and I really want the Saints to have pick 3 or pick 2. Not pick 1 obviously because 27 wooden spoons is more than enough.

[Teflon]

CW they know that they just dont want to debate the topic because the logic is sound
Far easier to argue using emotion and accusing people of not being supporters and demanding a win every week because thats popular.
I dont think we'll get top 3 pick..

[Bunk_Moreland]

CW they know that they just dont want to debate the topic because the logic is sound
Far easier to argue using emotion and accusing people of not being supporters and demanding a win every week because thats popular.
I dont think we'll get top 3 pick..

You logic is sound but limited to a simple fix. That is the issue.

The simple fix of tanking as you and Citywest seem to favour has not once resulted in a flag.

you have continually ignored all other arguments for your silly spurious rant about a top pick.

Really it is pretty sad that a supposed supporter of our club would rather see the team lose on some half hoped future success that may never happen.

really to have such a rigid outlook and to dismiss other rational arguments just shows your lack of understanding of the AFL system and the current rules.

I am sure you will respond to this because you cant help yourself, but really arguing with you who has such limited knowledge of the system is obviously futile. You go on believing your fantasies and hoping for the Saints to lose.

Anyway you have a good ally in Citywest who has stated on this thread that he wants only three more wins for the year, meaning he is HOPING for 10 more losses.

Great retrograde attitude you both have, wanting your team to lose. Fair Dinkum, we have some poor supporters.

[Teflon]

CW they know that they just dont want to debate the topic because the logic is sound
Far easier to argue using emotion and accusing people of not being supporters and demanding a win every week because thats popular.
I dont think we'll get top 3 pick..

You logic is sound but limited to a simple fix. That is the issue.

The simple fix of tanking as you and Citywest seem to favour has not once resulted in a flag.

you have continually ignored all other arguments for your silly spurious rant about a top pick.

Really it is pretty sad that a supposed supporter of our club would rather see the team lose on some half hoped future success that may never happen.

really to have such a rigid outlook and to dismiss other rational arguments just shows your lack of understanding of the AFL system and the current rules.

I am sure you will respond to this because you cant help yourself, but really arguing with you who has such limited knowledge of the system is obviously futile. You go on believing your fantasies and hoping for the Saints to lose.

Anyway you have a good ally in Citywest who has stated on this thread that he wants only three more wins for the year, meaning he is HOPING for 10 more losses.

Great retrograde attitude you both have, wanting your team to lose. Fair Dinkum, we have some poor supporters.

Blah blah blah...

You keep responding ignoring the thtread topic and suggesting ANYONE on this thread said tanking equalts flags......no one has.

But you keep up with the dictionary words to demonstrate your 200 IQ and your 'AFL system knowledge' and we'll all try and keep up..

Spurious out!

[Bunk_Moreland]

For people like Bunk and a few others, I thought I would re-post my OP. With all the hysteria going on I thought the best way to shut them all up was simply to copy and paste so all can see that there was nothing in my post saying I want the Saints to lose. To those that don't believe me please re-read.........

by citywest » Sun 31 May 2015 10:47am
My heart says I want St Kilda to win today but my head says otherwise. If we win today we go to 12 points and may well end up winning 6 to 8 games for the year (which would be great mind you). However, with the future in mind, it may be better in the long run if we play really well today, have no injuries and lose by 9 points. I just listened to Callum Twomey and Nat Edwards on the "Road To The Draft" and I really want the Saints to have pick 3 or pick 2. Not pick 1 obviously because 27 wooden spoons is more than enough.

Who do you pick at 3 or 2 Citywest. Parish, Tucker, Francis, Weitering, Scasche, or Partington, because anyone of them could go between No.1 and No.6 at the moment.

Who will be better out of those six in three years time? Who is the standout amongst them?

I would wager you have no idea because even the experts are divided. This year any one of those 6 would be a great pickup, so tell me definitively who is the best and whowill be the A grader who will win us a flag.

See how stupid this "lose games so we have a top pick" idiocy is when actual prospects are put out there.

Really you people are deluded and really extremely ignorant on how the draft actually works

[Teflon]

For people like Bunk and a few others, I thought I would re-post my OP. With all the hysteria going on I thought the best way to shut them all up was simply to copy and paste so all can see that there was nothing in my post saying I want the Saints to lose. To those that don't believe me please re-read.........

by citywest » Sun 31 May 2015 10:47am
My heart says I want St Kilda to win today but my head says otherwise. If we win today we go to 12 points and may well end up winning 6 to 8 games for the year (which would be great mind you). However, with the future in mind, it may be better in the long run if we play really well today, have no injuries and lose by 9 points. I just listened to Callum Twomey and Nat Edwards on the "Road To The Draft" and I really want the Saints to have pick 3 or pick 2. Not pick 1 obviously because 27 wooden spoons is more than enough.

Who do you pick at 3 or 2 Citywest. Parish, Tucker, Francis, Weitering, Scasche, or Partington, because anyone of them could go between No.1 and No.6 at the moment.

Who will be better out of those six in three years time? Who is the standout amongst them?

I would wager you have no idea because even the experts are divided. This year any one of those 6 would be a great pickup, so tell me definitively who is the best and whowill be the A grader who will win us a flag.

See how stupid this "lose games so we have a top pick" idiocy is when actual prospects are put out there.

Really you people are deluded and really extremely ignorant on how the draft actually works

You again?

Really so using your logic then pick 1 isnt any more valuable than pick 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 then??

Is that right?
Is that what your saying?
Cause thats what we are talking about
Who gets picked that happens AFTER the choice is decided.

[Bunk_Moreland]

CW they know that they just dont want to debate the topic because the logic is sound
Far easier to argue using emotion and accusing people of not being supporters and demanding a win every week because thats popular.
I dont think we'll get top 3 pick..

You logic is sound but limited to a simple fix. That is the issue.

The simple fix of tanking as you and Citywest seem to favour has not once resulted in a flag.

you have continually ignored all other arguments for your silly spurious rant about a top pick.

Really it is pretty sad that a supposed supporter of our club would rather see the team lose on some half hoped future success that may never happen.

really to have such a rigid outlook and to dismiss other rational arguments just shows your lack of understanding of the AFL system and the current rules.

I am sure you will respond to this because you cant help yourself, but really arguing with you who has such limited knowledge of the system is obviously futile. You go on believing your fantasies and hoping for the Saints to lose.

Anyway you have a good ally in Citywest who has stated on this thread that he wants only three more wins for the year, meaning he is HOPING for 10 more losses.

Great retrograde attitude you both have, wanting your team to lose. Fair Dinkum, we have some poor supporters.

Blah blah blah...

You keep responding ignoring the thtread topic and suggesting ANYONE on this thread said tanking equalts flags......no one has.

But you keep up with the dictionary words to demonstrate your 200 IQ and your 'AFL system knowledge' and we'll all try and keep up..

Spurious out!

So it comes to this. Your silly argument exposed with facts and you attack the poster. Typical tactic of your over the years, shouldnt be suprised I supposed.

Also I shouldnt argue with someone obviously who has had a few.

Oh we should lose to get a No 1 so we are assured of a flag - lol what words of wisdom

Happy drinking Teflon

[Teflon]

CW they know that they just dont want to debate the topic because the logic is sound
Far easier to argue using emotion and accusing people of not being supporters and demanding a win every week because thats popular.
I dont think we'll get top 3 pick..

You logic is sound but limited to a simple fix. That is the issue.

The simple fix of tanking as you and Citywest seem to favour has not once resulted in a flag.

you have continually ignored all other arguments for your silly spurious rant about a top pick.

Really it is pretty sad that a supposed supporter of our club would rather see the team lose on some half hoped future success that may never happen.

really to have such a rigid outlook and to dismiss other rational arguments just shows your lack of understanding of the AFL system and the current rules.

I am sure you will respond to this because you cant help yourself, but really arguing with you who has such limited knowledge of the system is obviously futile. You go on believing your fantasies and hoping for the Saints to lose.

Anyway you have a good ally in Citywest who has stated on this thread that he wants only three more wins for the year, meaning he is HOPING for 10 more losses.

Great retrograde attitude you both have, wanting your team to lose. Fair Dinkum, we have some poor supporters.

Blah blah blah...

You keep responding ignoring the thtread topic and suggesting ANYONE on this thread said tanking equalts flags......no one has.

But you keep up with the dictionary words to demonstrate your 200 IQ and your 'AFL system knowledge' and we'll all try and keep up..

Spurious out!

So it comes to this. Your silly argument exposed with facts and you attack the poster. Typical tactic of your over the years, shouldnt be suprised I supposed.

Also I shouldnt argue with someone obviously who has had a few.

Oh we should lose to get a No 1 so we are assured of a flag - lol what words of wisdom

Happy drinking Teflon

I need to drink to make sense of your drivel

But yeah,, 'bottoms up''''!!! (comes complete with higher draft choice....

[Bunk_Moreland]

For people like Bunk and a few others, I thought I would re-post my OP. With all the hysteria going on I thought the best way to shut them all up was simply to copy and paste so all can see that there was nothing in my post saying I want the Saints to lose. To those that don't believe me please re-read.........

by citywest » Sun 31 May 2015 10:47am
My heart says I want St Kilda to win today but my head says otherwise. If we win today we go to 12 points and may well end up winning 6 to 8 games for the year (which would be great mind you). However, with the future in mind, it may be better in the long run if we play really well today, have no injuries and lose by 9 points. I just listened to Callum Twomey and Nat Edwards on the "Road To The Draft" and I really want the Saints to have pick 3 or pick 2. Not pick 1 obviously because 27 wooden spoons is more than enough.

Who do you pick at 3 or 2 Citywest. Parish, Tucker, Francis, Weitering, Scasche, or Partington, because anyone of them could go between No.1 and No.6 at the moment.

Who will be better out of those six in three years time? Who is the standout amongst them?

I would wager you have no idea because even the experts are divided. This year any one of those 6 would be a great pickup, so tell me definitively who is the best and whowill be the A grader who will win us a flag.

See how stupid this "lose games so we have a top pick" idiocy is when actual prospects are put out there.

Really you people are deluded and really extremely ignorant on how the draft actually works

You again?

Really so using your logic then pick 1 isnt any more valuable than pick 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 then??

Is that right?
Is that what your saying?
Cause thats what we are talking about
Who gets picked that happens AFTER the choice is decided.

Maybe you can answer who is best of the above.

All ears champ. Come on its your magnificent theory.

I'll take as read you cant - oh how suprising.

Enjoy supporting Hawthorn tomorrow - great supporter that you are - hic

[Teflon]

How bout an answer to my simple question oh lord of the AFL system????

Is pick 5 better than pick 1??????

Cant wait lets have it 'champ'.

[kosifantutti]

And we're all waiting for that list of teams who spent three or more years at or near the bottom and leveraged that into a flag. The way you guys are carrying on there must be heaps of examples. But I can't think of one.

[Old Mate]

We are not Collingwood or Hawthorn. Or a 1-2 club state. We rarely attract the big players via trade. Last I can remember is Hammil and Gehrig. So we need to use other avenues to build a list....bring in average players that improve out of sight like Josh Bruce...make use of the draft which is the AFL's model for equalisation. It's no use comparing us to clubs that stay at the top. They have greater avenues for list building than we do. We and the Dogs are one and the same. But we ain't paying a 19 year old 1mill a year, we are prioritising the draft.

Do I want to lose to gain a better draft pick? No. If we do lose a bunch and get a shiny pick 2 or 3 will I feel okay about it cos we get more options come draft time? Yup. It's not about wanting to lose its about being okay with it given we are no show for finals. I'd love to see a bunch of StK wins this year but I'd be disappointed with a pick outside the top 5 in the draft.

[8856brother]

Win lose or draw, pick 1 > pick 2 etc etc etc. Ask any recruiter. The afl have just changed the father son rule and even made a formula to prove this. Pretty basic really. Should we tank? No. Lower pick better? Yes.

[The Fireman]

And we're all waiting for that list of teams who spent three or more years at or near the bottom and leveraged that into a flag. The way you guys are carrying on there must be heaps of examples. But I can't think of one.

as said earlier Kosi there are no guarantees.. it's about the opportunity to gain more potential. Which as I said earlier makes the losses somewhat easier for me personally to take ...this debate has gone on for too long and is repeating itself.

[kosifantutti]

And we're all waiting for that list of teams who spent three or more years at or near the bottom and leveraged that into a flag. The way you guys are carrying on there must be heaps of examples. But I can't think of one.

as said earlier Kosi there are no guarantees.. it's about the opportunity to gain more potential. Which as I said earlier makes the losses somewhat easier for me personally to take ...this debate has gone on for too long and is repeating itself.

Of course there's no guarantees. But maybe just one example?

[Old Mate]

And we're all waiting for that list of teams who spent three or more years at or near the bottom and leveraged that into a flag. The way you guys are carrying on there must be heaps of examples. But I can't think of one.

If you can't see that the AFL is not an even playing field and we lack the flag opportunities of Haw, Syd, WC, Coll, Gee then I can't help you.

[kosifantutti]

And we're all waiting for that list of teams who spent three or more years at or near the bottom and leveraged that into a flag. The way you guys are carrying on there must be heaps of examples. But I can't think of one.

If you can't see that the AFL is not an even playing field and we lack the flag opportunities of Haw, Syd, WC, Coll, Gee then I can't help you.

So no example then?