I'm torn...

[plugger66]

Yep lets finish last and get the first picl. If only it was all that simple. Firstly why would people even bother with the year if all the supporters had that attitude. Why would you attend games if you really had no interest in them winning. may as well fast forward to next year or is that still to early to hope to get off the bottom. Lets fast forward 2 years then and get those 2 number one picks. Don't worry about FA who don't want to come to us because they see no improvement. Don't worry about uncontracted players who wont come to us because they see no improvement.

So in the end by finishing last for the next 2 years we get 2 number one players who are unproven and then the rest of the picks are worse than the premiers. We get no uncontracted or FA because they see no improvement. We get bugger all to the games because they don't care. We get less sponsors and less members because no one cares. And lastly we lose our coach and have to start again in that regard.

Or the other option is we try to win every single game over the next 2 years and we win about 6 to 8 a year because that is about where we are at. We finish in the bottom 5 and get 2 top 5 picks who are also unproven but the big difference is we may get a proven very good uncontracted player and a proven very good FA because they see the gradual improvement in the side. We get new sponsors because we are on the up. We get good crowds because they see we are on the up. We get new members because they can see we are on the up and we keep our coach and who has set this all up.

Im going the second option.

You sell pessimism like its going out of fashion. The sky wont fall in if we finish lowly for the next season or 2 (we will anyway) so stop scare mongering and pretending FA's (you gone back to that I cant believe it...desperate times..) wont come to us. They'll come cause they aint stupid and know when a list is choc full of talent and they have a hand full of cash....its a mercenary game now anyway so that points useless.

We wont finish last so lets not talk nonsense. But yes, while we are currently ordinary lest maximise our choice options.

Yes we all know you believe that should we use these years with a 'greater development focus than a winning focus' that somehow we'll be infected with some disease rendering us destined for the loser scrap heap forever.......again, pessimistic nonsense and you yourself admitted benefits from short term wins cant be measured (trust me when we start to climb no one will be looking back at that momentus victory over a dud Lions side in 2015....). They will remember that gun kid we selected cause we had the highest CHOICE this lovely AFL system made available to us..

Go for your choices Saints, maximise your bottoming out window - its an opportunity. Do put a cap on that time (club already has with road to 2108) and climb choc full of the highest, most talented kids in the land we can get our grubby hands on.

Then watch the FA's.....queue up.

Selling pessimism? Im the one wanting to win as many games as we can. You want to fast forward 2 years and hope picks from losing so many games pay dividends. And FA wont just come because we are chockfull of talent. Firstly if we do finish bottom this year which wont happen the only talent we get better than the premiers is pick one. You obviously keep over looking that. The rest of the picks are worse than the premier. They may end up great picks like it seems we got at last years draft but we could probably get those type of players by winning 6 games and finishing 4th last. How pessimistic of me wanting to win and come 5th last.

You can write words all you like and you have written a few lately but there is no proof you idea has actually ever worked. None at all. And I think that FA and uncontracted players would have less interest in a side that is showing no improvement and no amount of you telling me how the system works will change my mind on that. But if this current side was to win the occasional game with the list now as it ay the moment then a FA and an uncontracted players will show interest especially if we get this years draft right like last year. All those later picks look very good. Probably would have got them without our last place. You say you deal in facts. Can you show us where your system has paid dividends with a flag or will you continue to tell us the system tells us the lower the better? We know that but there isn't any proof it eventually pays dividends.

[Bunk_Moreland]

We can pick up a Roo through FA though. No such thing the last time we had a No.1 (not 2014).

Sydney picked up Franklin through FA.

Essendon picked up Goddard through FA

you highlighted the obvious that you have more change getting a better player @ no.1 but that is in isolation without taking all the other factors into account, recruiters, FA,OOC, trading 105% SC allowance even possible PP.

Anyway how many flags did we win with Riewoldt and Goddard. Your method has been tried and failed for the Saints.

And I find it curious that you think a winning culture is unimportant and a team can just flick the switch and somehow just start winning.

Very soon we will be without Roo, Schneids, Fisher, and Joey. If we are still getting belted in a year or two, we will have developed a losing culture. Forget our history, it is about the current group and they need to win as many as possible.

To want the team to tank has been shown to be counterproductive especially when we can BUY a quality player who has already been in the system for a few years.

I deal in 1 fact - the ONLY benefit finishing low in the current system is an earlier choice - are you honestly disputing that?

Asking me does a Riewoldt or Goddard guarantee you a Premiership is honestly silly......I can answer with - would we ever have gotten near it without them?
Lyon used to say - 'its all about giving yourself an opportunity' -
Earlier choice in the draft selection gives you an opportunity - what happens after that is up to the club.

Do you believe if we were to win 2 less games this year and snare a top 3 pick we would suddenly become Melbourne, with a tanking culture then permeating the club causing our young players to give up and all FA's to decide they will never play for us? (admittedly this is a Plugger66 type scenario).

Do you really think 2 less wins this season would mean this?

This is getting a bit silly now. You say you deal in one fact, but do not acknowledge all the other facts such as FA, OOC, 105% SC usage, human interaction when drafting and winning culture.

You one fact has proven specious over time with many superstars being selected much later in the draft. Still you would sacrifice winning games to maybe have an outside chance of possibly getting a maybe potential star which we wont know if they are until probably 2019 or20202.

And who said anything about two less wins a season. Citywest is openly advocating for ten more losses this year. Meaning he wants us to lose constantly.

And it is easy enough to become a Melbourne. This is our third season down the bottom getting flogged. A couple more and that is 5 seasons of losing, many of the young kids who will have been there five years will know nothing but getting flogged.

You talk about facts and then call me silly for asking how many flags our No.1 guaranteed. Answer was zero. Then you go into hypotheticals about would we ever had had the chance. Well in 2010 Reiwoldt was not there for most ofthe season and we still came within a bounce of the ball of a flag.

It is not instant gratification to want a win, because that is all that counts, winning. To put your faith in an already failed strategy of tanking and getting a pick one or two picks higher is remarkably shortsighted.

The football landscape has changed but you simply refuse to acknowledge that FA, OOC, 105% SC can BUY you a top liner, who will be attracted to a team on the up, not one tankng and getting flogged year in year out.

To put your faith in one pick (which as P66 points out is only one before the premier) is just so early 2000's. To combine that with a losing culture gives you a Melbourne or a Carlton who just wont learn.

But it is obvious that you will not acknowledge the drafting and recruiting landscape has changed and you think one player will change everything (in about three years when they have matured obviously).

[samuraisaint]

It's a moot point anyway. The last six games are no chance, and after what I saw last night we won't get close to Richmond either, so that's 7 of the last 8.
However, we do have several winnable games before that, 3 of which we actually should win, as long as Riewoldt plays.
Melbourne at Etihad, Bulldogs at Etihad, Essendon at Etihad, and, possibly, Giants at Blacktown.
We could possibly beat Melbourne at the G in round 15 or whenever that game is, but I doubt it due to our poor record there. But I don't want to be losing games we should win. We are still a bottom 2 side IMO because if you take Riewoldt out we probably won't win another game.

[kosifantutti]

I think we've moved beyond needing Riewoldt to win us a game. How did he go against the Dogs?

And surely based on last night we're a lock against the Dockers.

[bigcarl]

I think we've moved beyond needing Riewoldt to win us a game.

Yep and that is exactly what is needed, which isn't meant to be a sledge on a great champion.

[Teflon]

Yep lets finish last and get the first picl. If only it was all that simple. Firstly why would people even bother with the year if all the supporters had that attitude. Why would you attend games if you really had no interest in them winning. may as well fast forward to next year or is that still to early to hope to get off the bottom. Lets fast forward 2 years then and get those 2 number one picks. Don't worry about FA who don't want to come to us because they see no improvement. Don't worry about uncontracted players who wont come to us because they see no improvement.

So in the end by finishing last for the next 2 years we get 2 number one players who are unproven and then the rest of the picks are worse than the premiers. We get no uncontracted or FA because they see no improvement. We get bugger all to the games because they don't care. We get less sponsors and less members because no one cares. And lastly we lose our coach and have to start again in that regard.

Or the other option is we try to win every single game over the next 2 years and we win about 6 to 8 a year because that is about where we are at. We finish in the bottom 5 and get 2 top 5 picks who are also unproven but the big difference is we may get a proven very good uncontracted player and a proven very good FA because they see the gradual improvement in the side. We get new sponsors because we are on the up. We get good crowds because they see we are on the up. We get new members because they can see we are on the up and we keep our coach and who has set this all up.

Im going the second option.

You sell pessimism like its going out of fashion. The sky wont fall in if we finish lowly for the next season or 2 (we will anyway) so stop scare mongering and pretending FA's (you gone back to that I cant believe it...desperate times..) wont come to us. They'll come cause they aint stupid and know when a list is choc full of talent and they have a hand full of cash....its a mercenary game now anyway so that points useless.

We wont finish last so lets not talk nonsense. But yes, while we are currently ordinary lest maximise our choice options.

Yes we all know you believe that should we use these years with a 'greater development focus than a winning focus' that somehow we'll be infected with some disease rendering us destined for the loser scrap heap forever.......again, pessimistic nonsense and you yourself admitted benefits from short term wins cant be measured (trust me when we start to climb no one will be looking back at that momentus victory over a dud Lions side in 2015....). They will remember that gun kid we selected cause we had the highest CHOICE this lovely AFL system made available to us..

Go for your choices Saints, maximise your bottoming out window - its an opportunity. Do put a cap on that time (club already has with road to 2108) and climb choc full of the highest, most talented kids in the land we can get our grubby hands on.

Then watch the FA's.....queue up.

Selling pessimism? Im the one wanting to win as many games as we can. You want to fast forward 2 years and hope picks from losing so many games pay dividends. And FA wont just come because we are chockfull of talent. Firstly if we do finish bottom this year which wont happen the only talent we get better than the premiers is pick one. You obviously keep over looking that. The rest of the picks are worse than the premier. They may end up great picks like it seems we got at last years draft but we could probably get those type of players by winning 6 games and finishing 4th last. How pessimistic of me wanting to win and come 5th last.

You can write words all you like and you have written a few lately but there is no proof you idea has actually ever worked. None at all. And I think that FA and uncontracted players would have less interest in a side that is showing no improvement and no amount of you telling me how the system works will change my mind on that. But if this current side was to win the occasional game with the list now as it ay the moment then a FA and an uncontracted players will show interest especially if we get this years draft right like last year. All those later picks look very good. Probably would have got them without our last place. You say you deal in facts. Can you show us where your system has paid dividends with a flag or will you continue to tell us the system tells us the lower the better? We know that but there isn't any proof it eventually pays dividends.

So in essence what you are saying is there are no benefits from gaining a higher draft choice selection? None at all because a higher draft choice selection should automatically equal a Premiership?

Do show me where I said a higher draft choice guaranteed a flag? (ignore that question like you do many others when you know you can't answer).

Again, (for those a little slow here...) THE benefit is higher selection opportunities and IMO, when a side is bottoming out like we are, we need to take full advantage of that.

This isn't a debate about what goes into winning a flag but we can be assured NO Premiers have happened without high end draft talent....

Yes lots of words but so many to educate who can blame me?

[Teflon]

I think we've moved beyond needing Riewoldt to win us a game. How did he go against the Dogs?

And surely based on last night we're a lock against the Dockers.

Don't care not the point besides Im still waiting on that list of Premiership sides that don't have top end draft talent in them??

[Teflon]

We can pick up a Roo through FA though. No such thing the last time we had a No.1 (not 2014).

Sydney picked up Franklin through FA.

Essendon picked up Goddard through FA

you highlighted the obvious that you have more change getting a better player @ no.1 but that is in isolation without taking all the other factors into account, recruiters, FA,OOC, trading 105% SC allowance even possible PP.

Anyway how many flags did we win with Riewoldt and Goddard. Your method has been tried and failed for the Saints.

And I find it curious that you think a winning culture is unimportant and a team can just flick the switch and somehow just start winning.

Very soon we will be without Roo, Schneids, Fisher, and Joey. If we are still getting belted in a year or two, we will have developed a losing culture. Forget our history, it is about the current group and they need to win as many as possible.

To want the team to tank has been shown to be counterproductive especially when we can BUY a quality player who has already been in the system for a few years.

I deal in 1 fact - the ONLY benefit finishing low in the current system is an earlier choice - are you honestly disputing that?

Asking me does a Riewoldt or Goddard guarantee you a Premiership is honestly silly......I can answer with - would we ever have gotten near it without them?
Lyon used to say - 'its all about giving yourself an opportunity' -
Earlier choice in the draft selection gives you an opportunity - what happens after that is up to the club.

Do you believe if we were to win 2 less games this year and snare a top 3 pick we would suddenly become Melbourne, with a tanking culture then permeating the club causing our young players to give up and all FA's to decide they will never play for us? (admittedly this is a Plugger66 type scenario).

Do you really think 2 less wins this season would mean this?

This is getting a bit silly now. You say you deal in one fact, but do not acknowledge all the other facts such as FA, OOC, 105% SC usage, human interaction when drafting and winning culture.

You one fact has proven specious over time with many superstars being selected much later in the draft. Still you would sacrifice winning games to maybe have an outside chance of possibly getting a maybe potential star which we wont know if they are until probably 2019 or20202.

And who said anything about two less wins a season. Citywest is openly advocating for ten more losses this year. Meaning he wants us to lose constantly.

And it is easy enough to become a Melbourne. This is our third season down the bottom getting flogged. A couple more and that is 5 seasons of losing, many of the young kids who will have been there five years will know nothing but getting flogged.

You talk about facts and then call me silly for asking how many flags our No.1 guaranteed. Answer was zero. Then you go into hypotheticals about would we ever had had the chance. Well in 2010 Reiwoldt was not there for most ofthe season and we still came within a bounce of the ball of a flag.

It is not instant gratification to want a win, because that is all that counts, winning. To put your faith in an already failed strategy of tanking and getting a pick one or two picks higher is remarkably shortsighted.

The football landscape has changed but you simply refuse to acknowledge that FA, OOC, 105% SC can BUY you a top liner, who will be attracted to a team on the up, not one tankng and getting flogged year in year out.

To put your faith in one pick (which as P66 points out is only one before the premier) is just so early 2000's. To combine that with a losing culture gives you a Melbourne or a Carlton who just wont learn.

But it is obvious that you will not acknowledge the drafting and recruiting landscape has changed and you think one player will change everything (in about three years when they have matured obviously).

You're not even on topic so I didn't read all of above cause it's laced with dribble and large words to satisfy yourself that those $$ spent on an education paid off

Here's a free lesson: the topic is about the best way to get high end talent into our club it has nothing to do with what are all the ingredients needed to win a flag.... we all know that!!

Maximise draft choice options is 1 way and it has been used often
Keep up

[kosifantutti]

I think we've moved beyond needing Riewoldt to win us a game. How did he go against the Dogs?

And surely based on last night we're a lock against the Dockers.

Don't care not the point besides Im still waiting on that list of Premiership sides that don't have top end draft talent in them??

Not the point of what? I was replying to a specific post. I'm sorry if I wasted your time.

In terms of Premiership teams in recent years off the top of my head:
Hawthorn had one year near the bottom, got a priority pick. You can't do that any more
Sydney, never bottomed out.
Geelong, never bottomed out
Collingwood, see Hawthorn

I'll wait for your examples of teams who spent three or more years at or near the bottom and went on and won the flag.

[plugger66]

Yep lets finish last and get the first picl. If only it was all that simple. Firstly why would people even bother with the year if all the supporters had that attitude. Why would you attend games if you really had no interest in them winning. may as well fast forward to next year or is that still to early to hope to get off the bottom. Lets fast forward 2 years then and get those 2 number one picks. Don't worry about FA who don't want to come to us because they see no improvement. Don't worry about uncontracted players who wont come to us because they see no improvement.

So in the end by finishing last for the next 2 years we get 2 number one players who are unproven and then the rest of the picks are worse than the premiers. We get no uncontracted or FA because they see no improvement. We get bugger all to the games because they don't care. We get less sponsors and less members because no one cares. And lastly we lose our coach and have to start again in that regard.

Or the other option is we try to win every single game over the next 2 years and we win about 6 to 8 a year because that is about where we are at. We finish in the bottom 5 and get 2 top 5 picks who are also unproven but the big difference is we may get a proven very good uncontracted player and a proven very good FA because they see the gradual improvement in the side. We get new sponsors because we are on the up. We get good crowds because they see we are on the up. We get new members because they can see we are on the up and we keep our coach and who has set this all up.

Im going the second option.

You sell pessimism like its going out of fashion. The sky wont fall in if we finish lowly for the next season or 2 (we will anyway) so stop scare mongering and pretending FA's (you gone back to that I cant believe it...desperate times..) wont come to us. They'll come cause they aint stupid and know when a list is choc full of talent and they have a hand full of cash....its a mercenary game now anyway so that points useless.

We wont finish last so lets not talk nonsense. But yes, while we are currently ordinary lest maximise our choice options.

Yes we all know you believe that should we use these years with a 'greater development focus than a winning focus' that somehow we'll be infected with some disease rendering us destined for the loser scrap heap forever.......again, pessimistic nonsense and you yourself admitted benefits from short term wins cant be measured (trust me when we start to climb no one will be looking back at that momentus victory over a dud Lions side in 2015....). They will remember that gun kid we selected cause we had the highest CHOICE this lovely AFL system made available to us..

Go for your choices Saints, maximise your bottoming out window - its an opportunity. Do put a cap on that time (club already has with road to 2108) and climb choc full of the highest, most talented kids in the land we can get our grubby hands on.

Then watch the FA's.....queue up.

Selling pessimism? Im the one wanting to win as many games as we can. You want to fast forward 2 years and hope picks from losing so many games pay dividends. And FA wont just come because we are chockfull of talent. Firstly if we do finish bottom this year which wont happen the only talent we get better than the premiers is pick one. You obviously keep over looking that. The rest of the picks are worse than the premier. They may end up great picks like it seems we got at last years draft but we could probably get those type of players by winning 6 games and finishing 4th last. How pessimistic of me wanting to win and come 5th last.

You can write words all you like and you have written a few lately but there is no proof you idea has actually ever worked. None at all. And I think that FA and uncontracted players would have less interest in a side that is showing no improvement and no amount of you telling me how the system works will change my mind on that. But if this current side was to win the occasional game with the list now as it ay the moment then a FA and an uncontracted players will show interest especially if we get this years draft right like last year. All those later picks look very good. Probably would have got them without our last place. You say you deal in facts. Can you show us where your system has paid dividends with a flag or will you continue to tell us the system tells us the lower the better? We know that but there isn't any proof it eventually pays dividends.

So in essence what you are saying is there are no benefits from gaining a higher draft choice selection? None at all because a higher draft choice selection should automatically equal a Premiership?

Do show me where I said a higher draft choice guaranteed a flag? (ignore that question like you do many others when you know you can't answer).

Again, (for those a little slow here...) THE benefit is higher selection opportunities and IMO, when a side is bottoming out like we are, we need to take full advantage of that.

This isn't a debate about what goes into winning a flag but we can be assured NO Premiers have happened without high end draft talent....

Yes lots of words but so many to educate who can blame me?

Making things up to try and make your argument stronger just weakens your argument. Who said there is no benefit in getting higher draft selections? There may or may not be a benefit but whatever those benefits are they are out way by the benefits of actually trying to win as many games as possible during the year. And every side wins a flag with high end talent. Even if we won a flag next year we would have high end talent so I don't even get your point. Again lots of words to lots of posters but just wasted words as you are talking in riddles.

[saintsRrising]

I think we've moved beyond needing Riewoldt to win us a game. How did he go against the Dogs?

And surely based on last night we're a lock against the Dockers.

Don't care not the point besides Im still waiting on that list of Premiership sides that don't have top end draft talent in them??

Not the point of what? I was replying to a specific post. I'm sorry if I wasted your time.

In terms of Premiership teams in recent years off the top of my head:
Hawthorn had one year near the bottom, got a priority pick. You can't do that any more
Sydney, never bottomed out.
Geelong, never bottomed out
Collingwood, see Hawthorn

I'll wait for your examples of teams who spent three or more years at or near the bottom and went on and won the flag.

list of team who have taken the Teflon Technique =
Carlton
Melbourne

The Blues became a middling club too focussed on Juddy who now get to try the Teflon Technique a second time if they are stupid enough.


The Dees are stuck in the Teflon Technique...so badly affected that it is even harder for them to climb out of the loser mentality they embraced.

[BackFromUSA]

We can pick up a Roo through FA though. No such thing the last time we had a No.1 (not 2014).

Sydney picked up Franklin through FA.

Essendon picked up Goddard through FA

you highlighted the obvious that you have more change getting a better player @ no.1 but that is in isolation without taking all the other factors into account, recruiters, FA,OOC, trading 105% SC allowance even possible PP.

Anyway how many flags did we win with Riewoldt and Goddard. Your method has been tried and failed for the Saints.

And I find it curious that you think a winning culture is unimportant and a team can just flick the switch and somehow just start winning.

Very soon we will be without Roo, Schneids, Fisher, and Joey. If we are still getting belted in a year or two, we will have developed a losing culture. Forget our history, it is about the current group and they need to win as many as possible.

To want the team to tank has been shown to be counterproductive especially when we can BUY a quality player who has already been in the system for a few years.

I deal in 1 fact - the ONLY benefit finishing low in the current system is an earlier choice - are you honestly disputing that?

Asking me does a Riewoldt or Goddard guarantee you a Premiership is honestly silly......I can answer with - would we ever have gotten near it without them?
Lyon used to say - 'its all about giving yourself an opportunity' -
Earlier choice in the draft selection gives you an opportunity - what happens after that is up to the club.

Do you believe if we were to win 2 less games this year and snare a top 3 pick we would suddenly become Melbourne, with a tanking culture then permeating the club causing our young players to give up and all FA's to decide they will never play for us? (admittedly this is a Plugger66 type scenario).

Do you really think 2 less wins this season would mean this?

This is getting a bit silly now. You say you deal in one fact, but do not acknowledge all the other facts such as FA, OOC, 105% SC usage, human interaction when drafting and winning culture.

You one fact has proven specious over time with many superstars being selected much later in the draft. Still you would sacrifice winning games to maybe have an outside chance of possibly getting a maybe potential star which we wont know if they are until probably 2019 or20202.

And who said anything about two less wins a season. Citywest is openly advocating for ten more losses this year. Meaning he wants us to lose constantly.

And it is easy enough to become a Melbourne. This is our third season down the bottom getting flogged. A couple more and that is 5 seasons of losing, many of the young kids who will have been there five years will know nothing but getting flogged.

You talk about facts and then call me silly for asking how many flags our No.1 guaranteed. Answer was zero. Then you go into hypotheticals about would we ever had had the chance. Well in 2010 Reiwoldt was not there for most ofthe season and we still came within a bounce of the ball of a flag.

It is not instant gratification to want a win, because that is all that counts, winning. To put your faith in an already failed strategy of tanking and getting a pick one or two picks higher is remarkably shortsighted.

The football landscape has changed but you simply refuse to acknowledge that FA, OOC, 105% SC can BUY you a top liner, who will be attracted to a team on the up, not one tankng and getting flogged year in year out.

To put your faith in one pick (which as P66 points out is only one before the premier) is just so early 2000's. To combine that with a losing culture gives you a Melbourne or a Carlton who just wont learn.

But it is obvious that you will not acknowledge the drafting and recruiting landscape has changed and you think one player will change everything (in about three years when they have matured obviously).

Sorry Bunk - but where does CityWest openly advocate 10 more losses? My reading of the opening post and subsequent banter from him and other is that he has the opinion (like some other posters) that we are likely to finish up with around 5 to 8 wins. What he questions is whether more or less wins will be good or bad for us long term. That is my reading of his opening post. A fair question too. His opinion is that he would prefer less wins now if it gives us a better chance at a premiership later. It has opened an interesting debate despite the early abuse that he received.

[samuraisaint]

And the biigest irony of all about those two clubs is that they have been immensely successful. 12 and 17 Flags, loads of finals series, and until 2003 both were ahead of us in terms of upside. Go to a Melbourne or Carlton game now and their supporters, those who are left, are the most passive and pessimistic of the lot.
I think our game against Melbourne at Etihad has the potential to be a massive blowout.

[kosifantutti]

I think we've moved beyond needing Riewoldt to win us a game. How did he go against the Dogs?

And surely based on last night we're a lock against the Dockers.

Don't care not the point besides Im still waiting on that list of Premiership sides that don't have top end draft talent in them??

Not the point of what? I was replying to a specific post. I'm sorry if I wasted your time.

In terms of Premiership teams in recent years off the top of my head:
Hawthorn had one year near the bottom, got a priority pick. You can't do that any more
Sydney, never bottomed out.
Geelong, never bottomed out
Collingwood, see Hawthorn

I'll wait for your examples of teams who spent three or more years at or near the bottom and went on and won the flag.

list of team who have taken the Teflon Technique =
Carlton
Melbourne

The Blues became a middling club too focussed on Juddy who now get to try the Teflon Technique a second time if they are stupid enough.


The Dees are stuck in the Teflon Technique...so badly affected that it is even harder for them to climb out of the loser mentality they embraced.

You left Fitzroy off that list.

[samuraisaint]

I think we've moved beyond needing Riewoldt to win us a game. How did he go against the Dogs?

And surely based on last night we're a lock against the Dockers.

He was there, though. He is massively important in terms of team balance and game strategy. You're kidding yourself if you think otherwise.
Anyway, that wasn't really my point. What I was trying to point out is that we don't need to orchestrate finishing last or second or third last; we'll finish there anyway, because we haven't played a decent side yet. After tomorrow we will really find out a few things about how far we have come. I want us to thrash the legs of the sides we can beat and get that winning feeling happening, but against Collingwood we showed that we are susceptible against sides in the middle tier and above. That is not a criticism, just the way things are in reality.

[samuraisaint]

I think we've moved beyond needing Riewoldt to win us a game. How did he go against the Dogs?

And surely based on last night we're a lock against the Dockers.

You might be right about us against the Dockers though.

[kosifantutti]

I think we've moved beyond needing Riewoldt to win us a game. How did he go against the Dogs?

And surely based on last night we're a lock against the Dockers.

He was there, though. He is massively important in terms of team balance and game strategy. You're kidding yourself if you think otherwise.
Anyway, that wasn't really my point. What I was trying to point out is that we don't need to orchestrate finishing last or second or third last; we'll finish there anyway, because we haven't played a decent side yet. After tomorrow we will really find out a few things about how far we have come. I want us to thrash the legs of the sides we can beat and get that winning feeling happening, but against Collingwood we showed that we are susceptible against sides in the middle tier and above. That is not a criticism, just the way things are in reality.

I actually thought the Bulldogs game was one he missed. I realised later I was wrong but thought I'd get away with it.

[citywest]

My favourite post of chitywest's was when he said that we should have taken someone with class like Jay Kennedy-Harris instead of Jack Billings at pick 3.

I asked you ages ago to prove I said this LTN16 and sure enough you haven't. I am tired of these false quotes/accusations so I am reporting this post to the Mods.

[Teflon]

We're top of the bottom rung of teams.

Can anyone realistically see us finishing higher than were we currently are on the ladder?

No risk of us finishing mid table somewhere like 9th which to many is the place of dead roads.

So worse case scenario is pick 5 in the draft.

So the baseline isn't finishing 9th v 18th. It's 14th v 18th and the draft results are reasonably random.

Does anyone really think that the idea of "lets keep losing until we're ready to climb the ladder" really work? I don't think so.

I do agree that we may need to keep manufacturing additional and lower picks but it is getting harder to do this each year. We'll have to give up something for that to happen and I'm not channeling what's his face either.

So you agree we will continue to need lower picks but would rather we give up something to get them?

I think I'll take my chances with the short term pain now.

Is a rise up the ladder guaranteed for anyone? no.
Can we have pick 1 and stuff it up? yes.
Should we get ourselves the highest choice available while we are losing games? IMHO yes as its the only benefit this current shytty system offers.Take it, choose wisely and cross everything that the draft gods serve up another Judd, Ball, Hodge year.....

Yes, and I'm not sure how, but an extra first round draft pick or early second round pick would be nice.

Easy to say game the system and finish last to secure the prize but it will obviously comes at a price, which is finishing after Carlton and they are currently a rabble.

Do you want us to be worse than a rabble?

Whats the price and how is that measured?

I dont agree.

We are bottom now for a reason - the club is selling 'road to 2018' again for a reason SO the short period (and I stress short period)we are down lets maximise our choices is what Im saying.

I dont subscribe to the 'ohhh we will become Carlton' thats utter nonsense - different club, different people and I am very confident our people in charge have a course and we wont be Carlton (who are held ransomed by wealth benefactors and internal bickering)

Agree an extra first rounder/early second would be lovely - IMHO we simply still dont have enough A Grade .....love another top 5.....or so..

We'll slide when Roo, Chips, Montagna et al go so it all might take care of itself.......whatever happens I just hope we get the earliest CHOICE we can while we are bottoming out.

I don't want us finishing last. Is that ok with you?

You should have some faith.

It's entirely because I have faith that a low finish right now doesn't bother me - is that alright with you?
I'd save the "have faith" stuff for those pretending that if we lose a few more games we automatically turn into Melbourne !!

[Teflon]

I think we've moved beyond needing Riewoldt to win us a game. How did he go against the Dogs?

And surely based on last night we're a lock against the Dockers.

He was there, though. He is massively important in terms of team balance and game strategy. You're kidding yourself if you think otherwise.
Anyway, that wasn't really my point. What I was trying to point out is that we don't need to orchestrate finishing last or second or third last; we'll finish there anyway, because we haven't played a decent side yet. After tomorrow we will really find out a few things about how far we have come. I want us to thrash the legs of the sides we can beat and get that winning feeling happening, but against Collingwood we showed that we are susceptible against sides in the middle tier and above. That is not a criticism, just the way things are in reality.

I actually thought the Bulldogs game was one he missed. I realised later I was wrong but thought I'd get away with it.

It doesn't matter Kos you were still off on a tangent.... now you were just off on a tangent AND factually incorrect

I get away with it too - hang tough

[Teflon]

I think we've moved beyond needing Riewoldt to win us a game. How did he go against the Dogs?

And surely based on last night we're a lock against the Dockers.

Don't care not the point besides Im still waiting on that list of Premiership sides that don't have top end draft talent in them??

Not the point of what? I was replying to a specific post. I'm sorry if I wasted your time.

In terms of Premiership teams in recent years off the top of my head:
Hawthorn had one year near the bottom, got a priority pick. You can't do that any more
Sydney, never bottomed out.
Geelong, never bottomed out
Collingwood, see Hawthorn

I'll wait for your examples of teams who spent three or more years at or near the bottom and went on and won the flag.

list of team who have taken the Teflon Technique =
Carlton
Melbourne

The Blues became a middling club too focussed on Juddy who now get to try the Teflon Technique a second time if they are stupid enough.


The Dees are stuck in the Teflon Technique...so badly affected that it is even harder for them to climb out of the loser mentality they embraced.

You left Fitzroy off that list.

Fitzroy didn't finish last because of long term strategy to finish low and maximise draft choices - they finished last because they couldn't retain their talent see Roos and Co departures (Firzroy actually had quite a bit of talent and for many years had the wood on ST Kilda)
Again, your facts are rubbish but let's not let that get in the way of the story...,

[kosifantutti]

I think we've moved beyond needing Riewoldt to win us a game. How did he go against the Dogs?

And surely based on last night we're a lock against the Dockers.

He was there, though. He is massively important in terms of team balance and game strategy. You're kidding yourself if you think otherwise.
Anyway, that wasn't really my point. What I was trying to point out is that we don't need to orchestrate finishing last or second or third last; we'll finish there anyway, because we haven't played a decent side yet. After tomorrow we will really find out a few things about how far we have come. I want us to thrash the legs of the sides we can beat and get that winning feeling happening, but against Collingwood we showed that we are susceptible against sides in the middle tier and above. That is not a criticism, just the way things are in reality.

I actually thought the Bulldogs game was one he missed. I realised later I was wrong but thought I'd get away with it.

It doesn't matter Kos you were still off on a tangent.... now you were just off on a tangent AND factually incorrect

I get away with it too - hang tough

Thanks for the advice. But unlike some, I'll admit when I'm wrong.

How's that list of teams coming along that spent three years at or near the bottom and went on to win a flag with the draft picks they gained?

[The Fireman]

I hear you Teflon ...some on here don't like to admit that they would like to see the side prepare( for want of a better word) for the future with high picks.
When it all boils down 1st pick is better than 2nd etc...no brainer..it's coming to grips with the short term losses and the bravado of saying "I only want to see wins"

I know you don't like losses...I don't either. We will have room in the cap fo FA players...but let's make this season our last High pick season, if it doesn't work at least we gave ourselves the best opportunity

[Teflon]

We can pick up a Roo through FA though. No such thing the last time we had a No.1 (not 2014).

Sydney picked up Franklin through FA.

Essendon picked up Goddard through FA

you highlighted the obvious that you have more change getting a better player @ no.1 but that is in isolation without taking all the other factors into account, recruiters, FA,OOC, trading 105% SC allowance even possible PP.

Anyway how many flags did we win with Riewoldt and Goddard. Your method has been tried and failed for the Saints.

And I find it curious that you think a winning culture is unimportant and a team can just flick the switch and somehow just start winning.

Very soon we will be without Roo, Schneids, Fisher, and Joey. If we are still getting belted in a year or two, we will have developed a losing culture. Forget our history, it is about the current group and they need to win as many as possible.

To want the team to tank has been shown to be counterproductive especially when we can BUY a quality player who has already been in the system for a few years.

I deal in 1 fact - the ONLY benefit finishing low in the current system is an earlier choice - are you honestly disputing that?

Asking me does a Riewoldt or Goddard guarantee you a Premiership is honestly silly......I can answer with - would we ever have gotten near it without them?
Lyon used to say - 'its all about giving yourself an opportunity' -
Earlier choice in the draft selection gives you an opportunity - what happens after that is up to the club.

Do you believe if we were to win 2 less games this year and snare a top 3 pick we would suddenly become Melbourne, with a tanking culture then permeating the club causing our young players to give up and all FA's to decide they will never play for us? (admittedly this is a Plugger66 type scenario).

Do you really think 2 less wins this season would mean this?

This is getting a bit silly now. You say you deal in one fact, but do not acknowledge all the other facts such as FA, OOC, 105% SC usage, human interaction when drafting and winning culture.

You one fact has proven specious over time with many superstars being selected much later in the draft. Still you would sacrifice winning games to maybe have an outside chance of possibly getting a maybe potential star which we wont know if they are until probably 2019 or20202.

And who said anything about two less wins a season. Citywest is openly advocating for ten more losses this year. Meaning he wants us to lose constantly.

And it is easy enough to become a Melbourne. This is our third season down the bottom getting flogged. A couple more and that is 5 seasons of losing, many of the young kids who will have been there five years will know nothing but getting flogged.

You talk about facts and then call me silly for asking how many flags our No.1 guaranteed. Answer was zero. Then you go into hypotheticals about would we ever had had the chance. Well in 2010 Reiwoldt was not there for most ofthe season and we still came within a bounce of the ball of a flag.

It is not instant gratification to want a win, because that is all that counts, winning. To put your faith in an already failed strategy of tanking and getting a pick one or two picks higher is remarkably shortsighted.

The football landscape has changed but you simply refuse to acknowledge that FA, OOC, 105% SC can BUY you a top liner, who will be attracted to a team on the up, not one tankng and getting flogged year in year out.

To put your faith in one pick (which as P66 points out is only one before the premier) is just so early 2000's. To combine that with a losing culture gives you a Melbourne or a Carlton who just wont learn.

But it is obvious that you will not acknowledge the drafting and recruiting landscape has changed and you think one player will change everything (in about three years when they have matured obviously).

Sorry Bunk - but where does CityWest openly advocate 10 more losses? My reading of the opening post and subsequent banter from him and other is that he has the opinion (like some other posters) that we are likely to finish up with around 5 to 8 wins. What he questions is whether more or less wins will be good or bad for us long term. That is my reading of his opening post. A fair question too. His opinion is that he would prefer less wins now if it gives us a better chance at a premiership later. It has opened an interesting debate despite the early abuse that he received.

Thank you BFUSA - you have nailed what so many so called "educated" posters (looking at you cliche King Saintrising) have failed to
It is exactly the point of this thread (not somehow that 1 player guaranteed a flag...., I haven't read anyone here saying that despite SRs ranting.)
We will finish near bottom - the panick merchants are telling us that to lose 2 or more games to improve our longer term options will see us;
1. Turn into Melb/Carl
2. FAs will never come near us
3. Permeate the young players so badly theyll become losers forever
All moronic, fanciful conclusions
Can I please reiterate my view which is in keeping with CityWests, I would ANYDAY take that higher draft choice option if it meant short term only I drop another game or 2.
It is a interesting discussion but for me bottoming out should be used as an opportunity to build for the next decade and genuine flag chance do we must approach it without emotion and strategically

[kosifantutti]

I think we've moved beyond needing Riewoldt to win us a game. How did he go against the Dogs?

And surely based on last night we're a lock against the Dockers.

Don't care not the point besides Im still waiting on that list of Premiership sides that don't have top end draft talent in them??

Not the point of what? I was replying to a specific post. I'm sorry if I wasted your time.

In terms of Premiership teams in recent years off the top of my head:
Hawthorn had one year near the bottom, got a priority pick. You can't do that any more
Sydney, never bottomed out.
Geelong, never bottomed out
Collingwood, see Hawthorn

I'll wait for your examples of teams who spent three or more years at or near the bottom and went on and won the flag.

list of team who have taken the Teflon Technique =
Carlton
Melbourne

The Blues became a middling club too focussed on Juddy who now get to try the Teflon Technique a second time if they are stupid enough.


The Dees are stuck in the Teflon Technique...so badly affected that it is even harder for them to climb out of the loser mentality they embraced.

You left Fitzroy off that list.

Fitzroy didn't finish last because of long term strategy to finish low and maximise draft choices - they finished last because they couldn't retain their talent see Roos and Co departures (Firzroy actually had quite a bit of talent and for many years had the wood on ST Kilda)
Again, your facts are rubbish but let's not let that get in the way of the story...,

Do you think the loss of talent had something to do with the performance of the team? What if an improving team comes knocking on the door of Billings, Bruce or McCartin while we're hanging around the bottom of the ladder?

BTW we won 11 out of our last 12 against Fitzroy, which is surely the time period that is relevant.