Hawthorn moving training base to dingley

[plugger66]

Hi all,
This is the time where you need to think like I did, for Mark Thompson and his dodgy property deal at Armstrong Creek, Geelong.

This WILL Impact your club, as Hawthorn must have a relationship with the City of Kingston to have this section of land in Dingley. Hawthorn will now be lobbying the City of Kingston for as much funds as possible.

The Dingley locals like think of their Village as a closed off part of Melbourne (I’ve dealt with them in a previous job).

You need to ask yourself the following:

- What Land Zoning does this land current have (check DPCD or Kingston Plannign Scheme)
- Will this land be re-zoned in the near future
- Does any Hawthorn FC officials have a relationship/link to Councillors/Senior Managers at the City of Kingston?
- Does any Hawthorn FC officials have a relationship/link to Councillors/Senior Managers at the EPA? (I know one Hawthorn FC Board Member has investments in Wind Farms)
- Was this land sold exclusively to Hawthorn, or was it sold by Tender?
- Were Hawthorn FC members informed via previous AGMs/Board Meeting Minutes that the club was looking to invest in a new home?
- The original 1999 Mirvac/State Govt/AFL deal for Waverley Park, are there any clauses there that impact on this deal?
- Are there any Council Meeting Minutes/Official Correspondence available under FOI from the City of Kingston that mention anything about Hawthorn FC legally acquiring this land?

They’re the questions I’d be asking.

Thanks.

Rushie our money has already been approved so who cares what the Hawks get. Who cares about the land zone. Seriously. Who cares if they have relationships with any Kingston people. Who cares how the land was sold. Why do we care if the Hawks members were told anything. Why do we care about the Waverley deal. And who cares about council minutes. Conspiracies are your go. Your questions are a waste of time. Maybe you get onto this Rushie and change the hawks mind like you have arranged WADA appealing the Essendon case.

The move by the Hawks has no effect on us and we also have no right to worry about what they are doing. Its their business and nothing to do with us.

Well, I care. I don't want this monstrous home base for the Hawks in our backyard.
It is not about conspiracy theory, this is about long term strategic planning by another club to gain a beachhead in our heartland.
I am not trying to be hysterical about this - this is how competitive business is done. And people need to wake up to the existential threat this poses into the long term.
If you can't see what is happening at a league level and how strategically this facility has been positioned then you're blind.
Try to put petty rivalries aside because this is actually an issue where we all need to come together.

It is easier to be apathetic or ignore it and hope it goes away but it won't, it will only get worse from here. We actually have to try to do something.
At the very least voice your concerns to the club.

Firstly it is none of the saints business. We left the Kingston council and now you want to whinge to them for letting another AFL side in. Why would they care about what we think. And they are Km from us anyway. About 8 I reckon. And I cant see what is happening at league level so if you could explain it that would be great. I cant see how it even slightly effects us. Its hysterical crap IMO. And nothing to do with rivalries. If we all got together we still cant stop it because its none of our business. I don't even think the club would really care. The hawks were obviously buying this land before we announced we were coming back so there is no conspiracy that they are trying to get into our turf. Id love to hear how you think it effects us long term. Sounds way over the top. I certainly have no interest in stopping them moving to Dingley. None at all. I will leave it for those who think they can somehow stop it. For what reason I have no idea.

That's fine. You don't want don't think its anything and its all hyperbolic crap then great - don't worry about it.
I am not going to get into a p*ssing contest with you and activate egos, it is a waste of time.

For those that do want to know what is being talked about at the league level then read the following link:

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/b ... hh30v.html

After reading that article then think again about the Hawks planned new home base in context.
They are planning for the next 100 years not the next 10-15.

So you cant be bothered explaining to me the problems. Even if we get zones back, which I doubt, they aren't going to just be near training bases. That illogical otherwise the pies, tigers and Melbourne will have the smallest zones ever and in industrial areas. All clubs would get equal zones. Whether the Hawks train in Dingley or Glen Waverley it will make little difference. As I said we cant stop it anyway. We have no right. Some people just cant discuss things logically so they then pull out of discussing it at all.

[stjay]

Hi all,
This is the time where you need to think like I did, for Mark Thompson and his dodgy property deal at Armstrong Creek, Geelong.

This WILL Impact your club, as Hawthorn must have a relationship with the City of Kingston to have this section of land in Dingley. Hawthorn will now be lobbying the City of Kingston for as much funds as possible.

The Dingley locals like think of their Village as a closed off part of Melbourne (I’ve dealt with them in a previous job).

You need to ask yourself the following:

- What Land Zoning does this land current have (check DPCD or Kingston Plannign Scheme)
- Will this land be re-zoned in the near future
- Does any Hawthorn FC officials have a relationship/link to Councillors/Senior Managers at the City of Kingston?
- Does any Hawthorn FC officials have a relationship/link to Councillors/Senior Managers at the EPA? (I know one Hawthorn FC Board Member has investments in Wind Farms)
- Was this land sold exclusively to Hawthorn, or was it sold by Tender?
- Were Hawthorn FC members informed via previous AGMs/Board Meeting Minutes that the club was looking to invest in a new home?
- The original 1999 Mirvac/State Govt/AFL deal for Waverley Park, are there any clauses there that impact on this deal?
- Are there any Council Meeting Minutes/Official Correspondence available under FOI from the City of Kingston that mention anything about Hawthorn FC legally acquiring this land?

They’re the questions I’d be asking.

Thanks.

Rushie our money has already been approved so who cares what the Hawks get. Who cares about the land zone. Seriously. Who cares if they have relationships with any Kingston people. Who cares how the land was sold. Why do we care if the Hawks members were told anything. Why do we care about the Waverley deal. And who cares about council minutes. Conspiracies are your go. Your questions are a waste of time. Maybe you get onto this Rushie and change the hawks mind like you have arranged WADA appealing the Essendon case.

The move by the Hawks has no effect on us and we also have no right to worry about what they are doing. Its their business and nothing to do with us.

Well, I care. I don't want this monstrous home base for the Hawks in our backyard.
It is not about conspiracy theory, this is about long term strategic planning by another club to gain a beachhead in our heartland.
I am not trying to be hysterical about this - this is how competitive business is done. And people need to wake up to the existential threat this poses into the long term.
If you can't see what is happening at a league level and how strategically this facility has been positioned then you're blind.
Try to put petty rivalries aside because this is actually an issue where we all need to come together.

It is easier to be apathetic or ignore it and hope it goes away but it won't, it will only get worse from here. We actually have to try to do something.
At the very least voice your concerns to the club.

Firstly it is none of the saints business. We left the Kingston council and now you want to whinge to them for letting another AFL side in. Why would they care about what we think. And they are Km from us anyway. About 8 I reckon. And I cant see what is happening at league level so if you could explain it that would be great. I cant see how it even slightly effects us. Its hysterical crap IMO. And nothing to do with rivalries. If we all got together we still cant stop it because its none of our business. I don't even think the club would really care. The hawks were obviously buying this land before we announced we were coming back so there is no conspiracy that they are trying to get into our turf. Id love to hear how you think it effects us long term. Sounds way over the top. I certainly have no interest in stopping them moving to Dingley. None at all. I will leave it for those who think they can somehow stop it. For what reason I have no idea.

That's fine. You don't want don't think its anything and its all hyperbolic crap then great - don't worry about it.
I am not going to get into a p*ssing contest with you and activate egos, it is a waste of time.

For those that do want to know what is being talked about at the league level then read the following link:

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/b ... hh30v.html

After reading that article then think again about the Hawks planned new home base in context.
They are planning for the next 100 years not the next 10-15.

So you cant be bothered explaining to me the problems. Even if we get zones back, which I doubt, they aren't going to just be near training bases. That illogical otherwise the pies, tigers and Melbourne will have the smallest zones ever and in industrial areas. All clubs would get equal zones. Whether the Hawks train in Dingley or Glen Waverley it will make little difference. As I said we cant stop it anyway. We have no right. Some people just cant discuss things logically so they then pull out of discussing it at all.

OK, first is people need to know what is happening.
So if you can't be bothered to read and get up to speed then we can't work through the issues.

Seperating out the issues 1. Player academies 2. Zoning
Player academies are coming & are the future - we know that.
In a competitive landscape the biggest & best are going to be the most attractive to local young footy players.
In fact a state of the art facility with a highly successful club such as Hawthorn will be a MAGNET for young players. It doesn't need to be across the road to be a competitive threat - it's not Pizza Hut.
It will pull kids from right across the Sotuh to South East of Melb.
Putting zoning to the side for one minute, if you have a young player in the Pennisula who can take his pick between going to the Hawk's Dingley base or a Saints Moorabin facility which one do they go to?
I say, it will an extremely difficult to compete with head-to-head.

Zoning is difficult issue, the most opaque and will be the most contentious for clubs.
There however will be some drive to make zones consistent with the geographic position of the club. That's is where the club can best service the local community, offer its services and cultivate talent.
This would mean the Hawks are directly in the geographic corridor of the Saints' natural catchment zone.
Even if there is ultimately a stoush on zones bw the Hawks and Saints at the AFL level my guess is, when you're talking about reinforcing or protecting the game from other codes, this facility will be seen by the AFL as an asset and with more resources behind them the likelihood is the Hawks will win the day.
At a bare minimum it is a stake in the ground by the Hawks to claim part of what should be our zone.
There is also poaching from zones that is likely to occur which requires willing participants - Learning at a state of the art facilitiy could get you over the line.

On saying all of this it is a very fluid situation and may transpire in various ways but one thing you can bet on - Hawthorn have taken account of the possibilities and have made their move.
People ay what can we do about it, it is up to Hawthorn and its nobody else's business - which is wrong.
We are both in the business of football, drawing in and developing talent. There is a competition governed by the AFL which seeks to ensure fairness and prevent any club gaining a monopoly.
When another club relocates into our heartland, when the player development rules are changing and zoning is being muted then we as a club have every right to ask the AFL to tell Hawthorn to cease and desist with their plans to relocate to
Dingley until there is total clarity on the outcome.

Just ask that everyboy think carefully about what I am positing. Do your own research, make up your own mind but don't ignore the issue.
We are on notice.

[stjay]

Hi all,
This is the time where you need to think like I did, for Mark Thompson and his dodgy property deal at Armstrong Creek, Geelong.

This WILL Impact your club, as Hawthorn must have a relationship with the City of Kingston to have this section of land in Dingley. Hawthorn will now be lobbying the City of Kingston for as much funds as possible.

The Dingley locals like think of their Village as a closed off part of Melbourne (I’ve dealt with them in a previous job).

You need to ask yourself the following:

- What Land Zoning does this land current have (check DPCD or Kingston Plannign Scheme)
- Will this land be re-zoned in the near future
- Does any Hawthorn FC officials have a relationship/link to Councillors/Senior Managers at the City of Kingston?
- Does any Hawthorn FC officials have a relationship/link to Councillors/Senior Managers at the EPA? (I know one Hawthorn FC Board Member has investments in Wind Farms)
- Was this land sold exclusively to Hawthorn, or was it sold by Tender?
- Were Hawthorn FC members informed via previous AGMs/Board Meeting Minutes that the club was looking to invest in a new home?
- The original 1999 Mirvac/State Govt/AFL deal for Waverley Park, are there any clauses there that impact on this deal?
- Are there any Council Meeting Minutes/Official Correspondence available under FOI from the City of Kingston that mention anything about Hawthorn FC legally acquiring this land?

They’re the questions I’d be asking.

Thanks.

Rushie our money has already been approved so who cares what the Hawks get. Who cares about the land zone. Seriously. Who cares if they have relationships with any Kingston people. Who cares how the land was sold. Why do we care if the Hawks members were told anything. Why do we care about the Waverley deal. And who cares about council minutes. Conspiracies are your go. Your questions are a waste of time. Maybe you get onto this Rushie and change the hawks mind like you have arranged WADA appealing the Essendon case.

The move by the Hawks has no effect on us and we also have no right to worry about what they are doing. Its their business and nothing to do with us.

Well, I care. I don't want this monstrous home base for the Hawks in our backyard.
It is not about conspiracy theory, this is about long term strategic planning by another club to gain a beachhead in our heartland.
I am not trying to be hysterical about this - this is how competitive business is done. And people need to wake up to the existential threat this poses into the long term.
If you can't see what is happening at a league level and how strategically this facility has been positioned then you're blind.
Try to put petty rivalries aside because this is actually an issue where we all need to come together.

It is easier to be apathetic or ignore it and hope it goes away but it won't, it will only get worse from here. We actually have to try to do something.
At the very least voice your concerns to the club.

Firstly it is none of the saints business. We left the Kingston council and now you want to whinge to them for letting another AFL side in. Why would they care about what we think. And they are Km from us anyway. About 8 I reckon. And I cant see what is happening at league level so if you could explain it that would be great. I cant see how it even slightly effects us. Its hysterical crap IMO. And nothing to do with rivalries. If we all got together we still cant stop it because its none of our business. I don't even think the club would really care. The hawks were obviously buying this land before we announced we were coming back so there is no conspiracy that they are trying to get into our turf. Id love to hear how you think it effects us long term. Sounds way over the top. I certainly have no interest in stopping them moving to Dingley. None at all. I will leave it for those who think they can somehow stop it. For what reason I have no idea.

That's fine. You don't want don't think its anything and its all hyperbolic crap then great - don't worry about it.
I am not going to get into a p*ssing contest with you and activate egos, it is a waste of time.

For those that do want to know what is being talked about at the league level then read the following link:

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/b ... hh30v.html

After reading that article then think again about the Hawks planned new home base in context.
They are planning for the next 100 years not the next 10-15.

So you cant be bothered explaining to me the problems. Even if we get zones back, which I doubt, they aren't going to just be near training bases. That illogical otherwise the pies, tigers and Melbourne will have the smallest zones ever and in industrial areas. All clubs would get equal zones. Whether the Hawks train in Dingley or Glen Waverley it will make little difference. As I said we cant stop it anyway. We have no right. Some people just cant discuss things logically so they then pull out of discussing it at all.

OK, first is people need to know what is happening.
So if you can't be bothered to read and get up to speed then we can't work through the issues.

Seperating out the issues 1. Player academies 2. Zoning
Player academies are coming & are the future - we know that.
In a competitive landscape the biggest & best are going to be the most attractive to local young footy players.
In fact a state of the art facility with a highly successful club such as Hawthorn will be a MAGNET for young players. It doesn't need to be across the road to be a competitive threat - it's not Pizza Hut.
It will pull kids from right across the Sotuh to South East of Melb.
Putting zoning to the side for one minute, if you have a young player in the Pennisula who can take his pick between going to the Hawk's Dingley base or a Saints Moorabin facility which one do they go to?
I say, it will an extremely difficult to compete with head-to-head.

Zoning is difficult issue, the most opaque and will be the most contentious for clubs.
There however will be some drive to make zones consistent with the geographic position of the club. That's is where the club can best service the local community, offer its services and cultivate talent.
This would mean the Hawks are directly in the geographic corridor of the Saints' natural catchment zone.
Even if there is ultimately a stoush on zones bw the Hawks and Saints at the AFL level my guess is, when you're talking about reinforcing or protecting the game from other codes, this facility will be seen by the AFL as an asset and with more resources behind them the likelihood is the Hawks will win the day.
At a bare minimum it is a stake in the ground by the Hawks to claim part of what should be our zone.
There is also poaching from zones that is likely to occur which requires willing participants - Learning at a state of the art facilitiy could get you over the line.

On saying all of this it is a very fluid situation and may transpire in various ways but one thing you can bet on - Hawthorn have taken account of the possibilities and have made their move.
People ay what can we do about it, it is up to Hawthorn and its nobody else's business - which is wrong.
We are both in the business of football, drawing in and developing talent. There is a competition governed by the AFL which seeks to ensure fairness and prevent any club gaining a monopoly.
When another club relocates into our heartland, when the player development rules are changing and zoning is being muted then we as a club have every right to ask the AFL to tell Hawthorn to cease and desist with their plans to relocate to
Dingley until there is total clarity on the outcome.

Just ask that everyboy think carefully about what I am positing. Do your own research, make up your own mind but don't ignore the issue.
We are on notice.

[IanRush]

Speaking of ‘interesting’ South-East suburban land acquisitions, this is worth a look from our dear friends at Essendon.

Strong industry rumours that the sale of Dairy Bell was not warranted, and that the sale was "forced" on them. Hmmm

http://www.smh.com.au/business/capital- ... 30uwc.html

The owners of ice-cream institution Dairy Bell have offloaded the company's high-profile Malvern East headquarters, after announcing earlier this month they would close the 45-year-old business.

The off-market sale gives control of the 3000-square-metre site to burgeoning local developer Little Projects, backed by former Toll Holdings chief Paul Little, whose estimated net worth is about $715 million and growing.

Opposite the East Malvern railway station and Waverley Oval, Dairy Bell's white manufacturing plant and office is expected to be replaced with a medium-density apartment block with lower-level shops

Since retiring from the supply chain empire in 2012 after 26 years, Mr Little has focused on other ventures, including the successful development business run by another former Toll executive, Michael Fox.

He has also taken up the high-profile chairman role with the Essendon Football Club

http://www.smh.com.au/small-business/ma ... 34h17.html

Aussie icon Dairy Bell will close its factory doors by the end of the month, much to the disappointment of ice-cream lovers and small food retailers alike.

But how could a business fold after 45 years in the game? Were aggressive supermarket wars really to blame or was an outdated brand the cause?

Dairy Bell will close its two factories, one in Melbourne and another in Sydney, on February 27 and will shut the doors on its 11 retail sites in Victoria, New South Wales and South Australia when stocks run out.

The Melbourne factory site in East Malvern has been sold to business giant Paul Little's development company Little Projects. Dairy Bell management is looking for a buyer for the other factory in Camperdown, New South Wales

[plugger66]

Hi all,
This is the time where you need to think like I did, for Mark Thompson and his dodgy property deal at Armstrong Creek, Geelong.

This WILL Impact your club, as Hawthorn must have a relationship with the City of Kingston to have this section of land in Dingley. Hawthorn will now be lobbying the City of Kingston for as much funds as possible.

The Dingley locals like think of their Village as a closed off part of Melbourne (I’ve dealt with them in a previous job).

You need to ask yourself the following:

- What Land Zoning does this land current have (check DPCD or Kingston Plannign Scheme)
- Will this land be re-zoned in the near future
- Does any Hawthorn FC officials have a relationship/link to Councillors/Senior Managers at the City of Kingston?
- Does any Hawthorn FC officials have a relationship/link to Councillors/Senior Managers at the EPA? (I know one Hawthorn FC Board Member has investments in Wind Farms)
- Was this land sold exclusively to Hawthorn, or was it sold by Tender?
- Were Hawthorn FC members informed via previous AGMs/Board Meeting Minutes that the club was looking to invest in a new home?
- The original 1999 Mirvac/State Govt/AFL deal for Waverley Park, are there any clauses there that impact on this deal?
- Are there any Council Meeting Minutes/Official Correspondence available under FOI from the City of Kingston that mention anything about Hawthorn FC legally acquiring this land?

They’re the questions I’d be asking.

Thanks.

Rushie our money has already been approved so who cares what the Hawks get. Who cares about the land zone. Seriously. Who cares if they have relationships with any Kingston people. Who cares how the land was sold. Why do we care if the Hawks members were told anything. Why do we care about the Waverley deal. And who cares about council minutes. Conspiracies are your go. Your questions are a waste of time. Maybe you get onto this Rushie and change the hawks mind like you have arranged WADA appealing the Essendon case.

The move by the Hawks has no effect on us and we also have no right to worry about what they are doing. Its their business and nothing to do with us.

Well, I care. I don't want this monstrous home base for the Hawks in our backyard.
It is not about conspiracy theory, this is about long term strategic planning by another club to gain a beachhead in our heartland.
I am not trying to be hysterical about this - this is how competitive business is done. And people need to wake up to the existential threat this poses into the long term.
If you can't see what is happening at a league level and how strategically this facility has been positioned then you're blind.
Try to put petty rivalries aside because this is actually an issue where we all need to come together.

It is easier to be apathetic or ignore it and hope it goes away but it won't, it will only get worse from here. We actually have to try to do something.
At the very least voice your concerns to the club.

Firstly it is none of the saints business. We left the Kingston council and now you want to whinge to them for letting another AFL side in. Why would they care about what we think. And they are Km from us anyway. About 8 I reckon. And I cant see what is happening at league level so if you could explain it that would be great. I cant see how it even slightly effects us. Its hysterical crap IMO. And nothing to do with rivalries. If we all got together we still cant stop it because its none of our business. I don't even think the club would really care. The hawks were obviously buying this land before we announced we were coming back so there is no conspiracy that they are trying to get into our turf. Id love to hear how you think it effects us long term. Sounds way over the top. I certainly have no interest in stopping them moving to Dingley. None at all. I will leave it for those who think they can somehow stop it. For what reason I have no idea.

That's fine. You don't want don't think its anything and its all hyperbolic crap then great - don't worry about it.
I am not going to get into a p*ssing contest with you and activate egos, it is a waste of time.

For those that do want to know what is being talked about at the league level then read the following link:

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/b ... hh30v.html

After reading that article then think again about the Hawks planned new home base in context.
They are planning for the next 100 years not the next 10-15.

So you cant be bothered explaining to me the problems. Even if we get zones back, which I doubt, they aren't going to just be near training bases. That illogical otherwise the pies, tigers and Melbourne will have the smallest zones ever and in industrial areas. All clubs would get equal zones. Whether the Hawks train in Dingley or Glen Waverley it will make little difference. As I said we cant stop it anyway. We have no right. Some people just cant discuss things logically so they then pull out of discussing it at all.

OK, first is people need to know what is happening.
So if you can't be bothered to read and get up to speed then we can't work through the issues.

Seperating out the issues 1. Player academies 2. Zoning
Player academies are coming & are the future - we know that.
In a competitive landscape the biggest & best are going to be the most attractive to local young footy players.
In fact a state of the art facility with a highly successful club such as Hawthorn will be a MAGNET for young players. It doesn't need to be across the road to be a competitive threat - it's not Pizza Hut.
It will pull kids from right across the Sotuh to South East of Melb.
Putting zoning to the side for one minute, if you have a young player in the Pennisula who can take his pick between going to the Hawk's Dingley base or a Saints Moorabin facility which one do they go to?
I say, it will an extremely difficult to compete with head-to-head.

Zoning is difficult issue, the most opaque and will be the most contentious for clubs.
There however will be some drive to make zones consistent with the geographic position of the club. That's is where the club can best service the local community, offer its services and cultivate talent.
This would mean the Hawks are directly in the geographic corridor of the Saints' natural catchment zone.
Even if there is ultimately a stoush on zones bw the Hawks and Saints at the AFL level my guess is, when you're talking about reinforcing or protecting the game from other codes, this facility will be seen by the AFL as an asset and with more resources behind them the likelihood is the Hawks will win the day.
At a bare minimum it is a stake in the ground by the Hawks to claim part of what should be our zone.
There is also poaching from zones that is likely to occur which requires willing participants - Learning at a state of the art facilitiy could get you over the line.

On saying all of this it is a very fluid situation and may transpire in various ways but one thing you can bet on - Hawthorn have taken account of the possibilities and have made their move.
People ay what can we do about it, it is up to Hawthorn and its nobody else's business - which is wrong.
We are both in the business of football, drawing in and developing talent. There is a competition governed by the AFL which seeks to ensure fairness and prevent any club gaining a monopoly.
When another club relocates into our heartland, when the player development rules are changing and zoning is being muted then we as a club have every right to ask the AFL to tell Hawthorn to cease and desist with their plans to relocate to
Dingley until there is total clarity on the outcome.

Just ask that everyboy think carefully about what I am positing. Do your own research, make up your own mind but don't ignore the issue.
We are on notice.

The AFL aren't going to let clubs just grab players from close to their training base whether we call it zones or academies. I still think don't there will be either. Its a backward step. Buts lets just say they do well then the AFL will tell cltbs you can only get players from certain areas. Hawthorn may have the Hawthorn area and the Dingley area. We will probably have the St Kilda and Moorabbin area. And The club wont tell the AFL to stop the Hawks moving in. Not a hope and even if they did the AFL will say its none of their business. There are 3 clubs within 2 KM of each other in Richmond so why would they care about 2 sides 10km apart. It is no ones business where the hawks train apart from their supporters.

[stjay]

Hi all,
This is the time where you need to think like I did, for Mark Thompson and his dodgy property deal at Armstrong Creek, Geelong.

This WILL Impact your club, as Hawthorn must have a relationship with the City of Kingston to have this section of land in Dingley. Hawthorn will now be lobbying the City of Kingston for as much funds as possible.

The Dingley locals like think of their Village as a closed off part of Melbourne (I’ve dealt with them in a previous job).

You need to ask yourself the following:

- What Land Zoning does this land current have (check DPCD or Kingston Plannign Scheme)
- Will this land be re-zoned in the near future
- Does any Hawthorn FC officials have a relationship/link to Councillors/Senior Managers at the City of Kingston?
- Does any Hawthorn FC officials have a relationship/link to Councillors/Senior Managers at the EPA? (I know one Hawthorn FC Board Member has investments in Wind Farms)
- Was this land sold exclusively to Hawthorn, or was it sold by Tender?
- Were Hawthorn FC members informed via previous AGMs/Board Meeting Minutes that the club was looking to invest in a new home?
- The original 1999 Mirvac/State Govt/AFL deal for Waverley Park, are there any clauses there that impact on this deal?
- Are there any Council Meeting Minutes/Official Correspondence available under FOI from the City of Kingston that mention anything about Hawthorn FC legally acquiring this land?

They’re the questions I’d be asking.

Thanks.

Rushie our money has already been approved so who cares what the Hawks get. Who cares about the land zone. Seriously. Who cares if they have relationships with any Kingston people. Who cares how the land was sold. Why do we care if the Hawks members were told anything. Why do we care about the Waverley deal. And who cares about council minutes. Conspiracies are your go. Your questions are a waste of time. Maybe you get onto this Rushie and change the hawks mind like you have arranged WADA appealing the Essendon case.

The move by the Hawks has no effect on us and we also have no right to worry about what they are doing. Its their business and nothing to do with us.

Well, I care. I don't want this monstrous home base for the Hawks in our backyard.
It is not about conspiracy theory, this is about long term strategic planning by another club to gain a beachhead in our heartland.
I am not trying to be hysterical about this - this is how competitive business is done. And people need to wake up to the existential threat this poses into the long term.
If you can't see what is happening at a league level and how strategically this facility has been positioned then you're blind.
Try to put petty rivalries aside because this is actually an issue where we all need to come together.

It is easier to be apathetic or ignore it and hope it goes away but it won't, it will only get worse from here. We actually have to try to do something.
At the very least voice your concerns to the club.

Firstly it is none of the saints business. We left the Kingston council and now you want to whinge to them for letting another AFL side in. Why would they care about what we think. And they are Km from us anyway. About 8 I reckon. And I cant see what is happening at league level so if you could explain it that would be great. I cant see how it even slightly effects us. Its hysterical crap IMO. And nothing to do with rivalries. If we all got together we still cant stop it because its none of our business. I don't even think the club would really care. The hawks were obviously buying this land before we announced we were coming back so there is no conspiracy that they are trying to get into our turf. Id love to hear how you think it effects us long term. Sounds way over the top. I certainly have no interest in stopping them moving to Dingley. None at all. I will leave it for those who think they can somehow stop it. For what reason I have no idea.

That's fine. You don't want don't think its anything and its all hyperbolic crap then great - don't worry about it.
I am not going to get into a p*ssing contest with you and activate egos, it is a waste of time.

For those that do want to know what is being talked about at the league level then read the following link:

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/b ... hh30v.html

After reading that article then think again about the Hawks planned new home base in context.
They are planning for the next 100 years not the next 10-15.

So you cant be bothered explaining to me the problems. Even if we get zones back, which I doubt, they aren't going to just be near training bases. That illogical otherwise the pies, tigers and Melbourne will have the smallest zones ever and in industrial areas. All clubs would get equal zones. Whether the Hawks train in Dingley or Glen Waverley it will make little difference. As I said we cant stop it anyway. We have no right. Some people just cant discuss things logically so they then pull out of discussing it at all.

OK, first is people need to know what is happening.
So if you can't be bothered to read and get up to speed then we can't work through the issues.

Seperating out the issues 1. Player academies 2. Zoning
Player academies are coming & are the future - we know that.
In a competitive landscape the biggest & best are going to be the most attractive to local young footy players.
In fact a state of the art facility with a highly successful club such as Hawthorn will be a MAGNET for young players. It doesn't need to be across the road to be a competitive threat - it's not Pizza Hut.
It will pull kids from right across the Sotuh to South East of Melb.
Putting zoning to the side for one minute, if you have a young player in the Pennisula who can take his pick between going to the Hawk's Dingley base or a Saints Moorabin facility which one do they go to?
I say, it will an extremely difficult to compete with head-to-head.

Zoning is difficult issue, the most opaque and will be the most contentious for clubs.
There however will be some drive to make zones consistent with the geographic position of the club. That's is where the club can best service the local community, offer its services and cultivate talent.
This would mean the Hawks are directly in the geographic corridor of the Saints' natural catchment zone.
Even if there is ultimately a stoush on zones bw the Hawks and Saints at the AFL level my guess is, when you're talking about reinforcing or protecting the game from other codes, this facility will be seen by the AFL as an asset and with more resources behind them the likelihood is the Hawks will win the day.
At a bare minimum it is a stake in the ground by the Hawks to claim part of what should be our zone.
There is also poaching from zones that is likely to occur which requires willing participants - Learning at a state of the art facilitiy could get you over the line.

On saying all of this it is a very fluid situation and may transpire in various ways but one thing you can bet on - Hawthorn have taken account of the possibilities and have made their move.
People ay what can we do about it, it is up to Hawthorn and its nobody else's business - which is wrong.
We are both in the business of football, drawing in and developing talent. There is a competition governed by the AFL which seeks to ensure fairness and prevent any club gaining a monopoly.
When another club relocates into our heartland, when the player development rules are changing and zoning is being muted then we as a club have every right to ask the AFL to tell Hawthorn to cease and desist with their plans to relocate to
Dingley until there is total clarity on the outcome.

Just ask that everyboy think carefully about what I am positing. Do your own research, make up your own mind but don't ignore the issue.
We are on notice.

The AFL aren't going to let clubs just grab players from close to their training base whether we call it zones or academies. I still think don't there will be either. Its a backward step. Buts lets just say they do well then the AFL will tell cltbs you can only get players from certain areas. Hawthorn may have the Hawthorn area and the Dingley area. We will probably have the St Kilda and Moorabbin area. And The club wont tell the AFL to stop the Hawks moving in. Not a hope and even if they did the AFL will say its none of their business. There are 3 clubs within 2 KM of each other in Richmond so why would they care about 2 sides 10km apart. It is no ones business where the hawks train apart from their supporters.

Well, you obviously read a different article than I did. People who run clubs are now pushing for it and there's precendent for it. You think a zoning catchment is only going to be Dingley & Hawthorn and that is going to be sufficient? No, you're way off the mark. Clubs will be vying for local and interstate access. As to what happens to other clubs' zones who cares? We need protect our own space. As to what the AFL will or will not say that's pure speculation based on your view, there is no precedent to base that on.

This has the classic hallmarks of 15 to 20 years down the track Saints supporters saying "Why didn't we see it coming & try to do something about it?".

[plugger66]

Hi all,
This is the time where you need to think like I did, for Mark Thompson and his dodgy property deal at Armstrong Creek, Geelong.

This WILL Impact your club, as Hawthorn must have a relationship with the City of Kingston to have this section of land in Dingley. Hawthorn will now be lobbying the City of Kingston for as much funds as possible.

The Dingley locals like think of their Village as a closed off part of Melbourne (I’ve dealt with them in a previous job).

You need to ask yourself the following:

- What Land Zoning does this land current have (check DPCD or Kingston Plannign Scheme)
- Will this land be re-zoned in the near future
- Does any Hawthorn FC officials have a relationship/link to Councillors/Senior Managers at the City of Kingston?
- Does any Hawthorn FC officials have a relationship/link to Councillors/Senior Managers at the EPA? (I know one Hawthorn FC Board Member has investments in Wind Farms)
- Was this land sold exclusively to Hawthorn, or was it sold by Tender?
- Were Hawthorn FC members informed via previous AGMs/Board Meeting Minutes that the club was looking to invest in a new home?
- The original 1999 Mirvac/State Govt/AFL deal for Waverley Park, are there any clauses there that impact on this deal?
- Are there any Council Meeting Minutes/Official Correspondence available under FOI from the City of Kingston that mention anything about Hawthorn FC legally acquiring this land?

They’re the questions I’d be asking.

Thanks.

Rushie our money has already been approved so who cares what the Hawks get. Who cares about the land zone. Seriously. Who cares if they have relationships with any Kingston people. Who cares how the land was sold. Why do we care if the Hawks members were told anything. Why do we care about the Waverley deal. And who cares about council minutes. Conspiracies are your go. Your questions are a waste of time. Maybe you get onto this Rushie and change the hawks mind like you have arranged WADA appealing the Essendon case.

The move by the Hawks has no effect on us and we also have no right to worry about what they are doing. Its their business and nothing to do with us.

Well, I care. I don't want this monstrous home base for the Hawks in our backyard.
It is not about conspiracy theory, this is about long term strategic planning by another club to gain a beachhead in our heartland.
I am not trying to be hysterical about this - this is how competitive business is done. And people need to wake up to the existential threat this poses into the long term.
If you can't see what is happening at a league level and how strategically this facility has been positioned then you're blind.
Try to put petty rivalries aside because this is actually an issue where we all need to come together.

It is easier to be apathetic or ignore it and hope it goes away but it won't, it will only get worse from here. We actually have to try to do something.
At the very least voice your concerns to the club.

Firstly it is none of the saints business. We left the Kingston council and now you want to whinge to them for letting another AFL side in. Why would they care about what we think. And they are Km from us anyway. About 8 I reckon. And I cant see what is happening at league level so if you could explain it that would be great. I cant see how it even slightly effects us. Its hysterical crap IMO. And nothing to do with rivalries. If we all got together we still cant stop it because its none of our business. I don't even think the club would really care. The hawks were obviously buying this land before we announced we were coming back so there is no conspiracy that they are trying to get into our turf. Id love to hear how you think it effects us long term. Sounds way over the top. I certainly have no interest in stopping them moving to Dingley. None at all. I will leave it for those who think they can somehow stop it. For what reason I have no idea.

That's fine. You don't want don't think its anything and its all hyperbolic crap then great - don't worry about it.
I am not going to get into a p*ssing contest with you and activate egos, it is a waste of time.

For those that do want to know what is being talked about at the league level then read the following link:

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/b ... hh30v.html

After reading that article then think again about the Hawks planned new home base in context.
They are planning for the next 100 years not the next 10-15.

So you cant be bothered explaining to me the problems. Even if we get zones back, which I doubt, they aren't going to just be near training bases. That illogical otherwise the pies, tigers and Melbourne will have the smallest zones ever and in industrial areas. All clubs would get equal zones. Whether the Hawks train in Dingley or Glen Waverley it will make little difference. As I said we cant stop it anyway. We have no right. Some people just cant discuss things logically so they then pull out of discussing it at all.

OK, first is people need to know what is happening.
So if you can't be bothered to read and get up to speed then we can't work through the issues.

Seperating out the issues 1. Player academies 2. Zoning
Player academies are coming & are the future - we know that.
In a competitive landscape the biggest & best are going to be the most attractive to local young footy players.
In fact a state of the art facility with a highly successful club such as Hawthorn will be a MAGNET for young players. It doesn't need to be across the road to be a competitive threat - it's not Pizza Hut.
It will pull kids from right across the Sotuh to South East of Melb.
Putting zoning to the side for one minute, if you have a young player in the Pennisula who can take his pick between going to the Hawk's Dingley base or a Saints Moorabin facility which one do they go to?
I say, it will an extremely difficult to compete with head-to-head.

Zoning is difficult issue, the most opaque and will be the most contentious for clubs.
There however will be some drive to make zones consistent with the geographic position of the club. That's is where the club can best service the local community, offer its services and cultivate talent.
This would mean the Hawks are directly in the geographic corridor of the Saints' natural catchment zone.
Even if there is ultimately a stoush on zones bw the Hawks and Saints at the AFL level my guess is, when you're talking about reinforcing or protecting the game from other codes, this facility will be seen by the AFL as an asset and with more resources behind them the likelihood is the Hawks will win the day.
At a bare minimum it is a stake in the ground by the Hawks to claim part of what should be our zone.
There is also poaching from zones that is likely to occur which requires willing participants - Learning at a state of the art facilitiy could get you over the line.

On saying all of this it is a very fluid situation and may transpire in various ways but one thing you can bet on - Hawthorn have taken account of the possibilities and have made their move.
People ay what can we do about it, it is up to Hawthorn and its nobody else's business - which is wrong.
We are both in the business of football, drawing in and developing talent. There is a competition governed by the AFL which seeks to ensure fairness and prevent any club gaining a monopoly.
When another club relocates into our heartland, when the player development rules are changing and zoning is being muted then we as a club have every right to ask the AFL to tell Hawthorn to cease and desist with their plans to relocate to
Dingley until there is total clarity on the outcome.

Just ask that everyboy think carefully about what I am positing. Do your own research, make up your own mind but don't ignore the issue.
We are on notice.

The AFL aren't going to let clubs just grab players from close to their training base whether we call it zones or academies. I still think don't there will be either. Its a backward step. Buts lets just say they do well then the AFL will tell cltbs you can only get players from certain areas. Hawthorn may have the Hawthorn area and the Dingley area. We will probably have the St Kilda and Moorabbin area. And The club wont tell the AFL to stop the Hawks moving in. Not a hope and even if they did the AFL will say its none of their business. There are 3 clubs within 2 KM of each other in Richmond so why would they care about 2 sides 10km apart. It is no ones business where the hawks train apart from their supporters.

Well, you obviously read a different article than I did. People who run clubs are now pushing for it and there's precendent for it. You think a zoning catchment is only going to be Dingley & Hawthorn and that is going to be sufficient? No, you're way off the mark. Clubs will be vying for local and interstate access. As to what happens to other clubs' zones who cares? We need protect our own space. As to what the AFL will or will not say that's pure speculation based on your view, there is no precedent to base that on.

This has the classic hallmarks of 15 to 20 years down the track Saints supporters saying "Why didn't we see it coming & try to do something about it?".

I see that you just don't bother to address the point of 3 clubs within a k of each other because it completely makes your paranoia look silly. And what the AFL will do or say is based on actual history. They don't give a stuff where clubs train. Fact.

[stjay]

Hi all,
This is the time where you need to think like I did, for Mark Thompson and his dodgy property deal at Armstrong Creek, Geelong.

This WILL Impact your club, as Hawthorn must have a relationship with the City of Kingston to have this section of land in Dingley. Hawthorn will now be lobbying the City of Kingston for as much funds as possible.

The Dingley locals like think of their Village as a closed off part of Melbourne (I’ve dealt with them in a previous job).

You need to ask yourself the following:

- What Land Zoning does this land current have (check DPCD or Kingston Plannign Scheme)
- Will this land be re-zoned in the near future
- Does any Hawthorn FC officials have a relationship/link to Councillors/Senior Managers at the City of Kingston?
- Does any Hawthorn FC officials have a relationship/link to Councillors/Senior Managers at the EPA? (I know one Hawthorn FC Board Member has investments in Wind Farms)
- Was this land sold exclusively to Hawthorn, or was it sold by Tender?
- Were Hawthorn FC members informed via previous AGMs/Board Meeting Minutes that the club was looking to invest in a new home?
- The original 1999 Mirvac/State Govt/AFL deal for Waverley Park, are there any clauses there that impact on this deal?
- Are there any Council Meeting Minutes/Official Correspondence available under FOI from the City of Kingston that mention anything about Hawthorn FC legally acquiring this land?

They’re the questions I’d be asking.

Thanks.

Rushie our money has already been approved so who cares what the Hawks get. Who cares about the land zone. Seriously. Who cares if they have relationships with any Kingston people. Who cares how the land was sold. Why do we care if the Hawks members were told anything. Why do we care about the Waverley deal. And who cares about council minutes. Conspiracies are your go. Your questions are a waste of time. Maybe you get onto this Rushie and change the hawks mind like you have arranged WADA appealing the Essendon case.

The move by the Hawks has no effect on us and we also have no right to worry about what they are doing. Its their business and nothing to do with us.

Well, I care. I don't want this monstrous home base for the Hawks in our backyard.
It is not about conspiracy theory, this is about long term strategic planning by another club to gain a beachhead in our heartland.
I am not trying to be hysterical about this - this is how competitive business is done. And people need to wake up to the existential threat this poses into the long term.
If you can't see what is happening at a league level and how strategically this facility has been positioned then you're blind.
Try to put petty rivalries aside because this is actually an issue where we all need to come together.

It is easier to be apathetic or ignore it and hope it goes away but it won't, it will only get worse from here. We actually have to try to do something.
At the very least voice your concerns to the club.

Firstly it is none of the saints business. We left the Kingston council and now you want to whinge to them for letting another AFL side in. Why would they care about what we think. And they are Km from us anyway. About 8 I reckon. And I cant see what is happening at league level so if you could explain it that would be great. I cant see how it even slightly effects us. Its hysterical crap IMO. And nothing to do with rivalries. If we all got together we still cant stop it because its none of our business. I don't even think the club would really care. The hawks were obviously buying this land before we announced we were coming back so there is no conspiracy that they are trying to get into our turf. Id love to hear how you think it effects us long term. Sounds way over the top. I certainly have no interest in stopping them moving to Dingley. None at all. I will leave it for those who think they can somehow stop it. For what reason I have no idea.

That's fine. You don't want don't think its anything and its all hyperbolic crap then great - don't worry about it.
I am not going to get into a p*ssing contest with you and activate egos, it is a waste of time.

For those that do want to know what is being talked about at the league level then read the following link:

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/b ... hh30v.html

After reading that article then think again about the Hawks planned new home base in context.
They are planning for the next 100 years not the next 10-15.

So you cant be bothered explaining to me the problems. Even if we get zones back, which I doubt, they aren't going to just be near training bases. That illogical otherwise the pies, tigers and Melbourne will have the smallest zones ever and in industrial areas. All clubs would get equal zones. Whether the Hawks train in Dingley or Glen Waverley it will make little difference. As I said we cant stop it anyway. We have no right. Some people just cant discuss things logically so they then pull out of discussing it at all.

OK, first is people need to know what is happening.
So if you can't be bothered to read and get up to speed then we can't work through the issues.

Seperating out the issues 1. Player academies 2. Zoning
Player academies are coming & are the future - we know that.
In a competitive landscape the biggest & best are going to be the most attractive to local young footy players.
In fact a state of the art facility with a highly successful club such as Hawthorn will be a MAGNET for young players. It doesn't need to be across the road to be a competitive threat - it's not Pizza Hut.
It will pull kids from right across the Sotuh to South East of Melb.
Putting zoning to the side for one minute, if you have a young player in the Pennisula who can take his pick between going to the Hawk's Dingley base or a Saints Moorabin facility which one do they go to?
I say, it will an extremely difficult to compete with head-to-head.

Zoning is difficult issue, the most opaque and will be the most contentious for clubs.
There however will be some drive to make zones consistent with the geographic position of the club. That's is where the club can best service the local community, offer its services and cultivate talent.
This would mean the Hawks are directly in the geographic corridor of the Saints' natural catchment zone.
Even if there is ultimately a stoush on zones bw the Hawks and Saints at the AFL level my guess is, when you're talking about reinforcing or protecting the game from other codes, this facility will be seen by the AFL as an asset and with more resources behind them the likelihood is the Hawks will win the day.
At a bare minimum it is a stake in the ground by the Hawks to claim part of what should be our zone.
There is also poaching from zones that is likely to occur which requires willing participants - Learning at a state of the art facilitiy could get you over the line.

On saying all of this it is a very fluid situation and may transpire in various ways but one thing you can bet on - Hawthorn have taken account of the possibilities and have made their move.
People ay what can we do about it, it is up to Hawthorn and its nobody else's business - which is wrong.
We are both in the business of football, drawing in and developing talent. There is a competition governed by the AFL which seeks to ensure fairness and prevent any club gaining a monopoly.
When another club relocates into our heartland, when the player development rules are changing and zoning is being muted then we as a club have every right to ask the AFL to tell Hawthorn to cease and desist with their plans to relocate to
Dingley until there is total clarity on the outcome.

Just ask that everyboy think carefully about what I am positing. Do your own research, make up your own mind but don't ignore the issue.
We are on notice.

The AFL aren't going to let clubs just grab players from close to their training base whether we call it zones or academies. I still think don't there will be either. Its a backward step. Buts lets just say they do well then the AFL will tell cltbs you can only get players from certain areas. Hawthorn may have the Hawthorn area and the Dingley area. We will probably have the St Kilda and Moorabbin area. And The club wont tell the AFL to stop the Hawks moving in. Not a hope and even if they did the AFL will say its none of their business. There are 3 clubs within 2 KM of each other in Richmond so why would they care about 2 sides 10km apart. It is no ones business where the hawks train apart from their supporters.

Well, you obviously read a different article than I did. People who run clubs are now pushing for it and there's precendent for it. You think a zoning catchment is only going to be Dingley & Hawthorn and that is going to be sufficient? No, you're way off the mark. Clubs will be vying for local and interstate access. As to what happens to other clubs' zones who cares? We need protect our own space. As to what the AFL will or will not say that's pure speculation based on your view, there is no precedent to base that on.

This has the classic hallmarks of 15 to 20 years down the track Saints supporters saying "Why didn't we see it coming & try to do something about it?".

I see that you just don't bother to address the point of 3 clubs within a k of each other because it completely makes your paranoia look silly. And what the AFL will do or say is based on actual history. They don't give a stuff where clubs train. Fact.

Why does this hinge on me providing you a solution on what zones 3 clubs are going to have? Sure it will be complicated for them but that's thier problem. I don't think we want or need our situation complicated by an interloper 5 minutes to midnight.
You think it's paranoia? Fine - go back to sleep. Wednesday you were saying "No Hope" to academies, 24 hours later there's an article by Caroline Wilson on the AFL's initiative to bring them in! And you're still in denial.
So excuse me but I don't think I'll trust your judgement on this matter. Thanks.

[plugger66]

Hi all,
This is the time where you need to think like I did, for Mark Thompson and his dodgy property deal at Armstrong Creek, Geelong.

This WILL Impact your club, as Hawthorn must have a relationship with the City of Kingston to have this section of land in Dingley. Hawthorn will now be lobbying the City of Kingston for as much funds as possible.

The Dingley locals like think of their Village as a closed off part of Melbourne (I’ve dealt with them in a previous job).

You need to ask yourself the following:

- What Land Zoning does this land current have (check DPCD or Kingston Plannign Scheme)
- Will this land be re-zoned in the near future
- Does any Hawthorn FC officials have a relationship/link to Councillors/Senior Managers at the City of Kingston?
- Does any Hawthorn FC officials have a relationship/link to Councillors/Senior Managers at the EPA? (I know one Hawthorn FC Board Member has investments in Wind Farms)
- Was this land sold exclusively to Hawthorn, or was it sold by Tender?
- Were Hawthorn FC members informed via previous AGMs/Board Meeting Minutes that the club was looking to invest in a new home?
- The original 1999 Mirvac/State Govt/AFL deal for Waverley Park, are there any clauses there that impact on this deal?
- Are there any Council Meeting Minutes/Official Correspondence available under FOI from the City of Kingston that mention anything about Hawthorn FC legally acquiring this land?

They’re the questions I’d be asking.

Thanks.

Rushie our money has already been approved so who cares what the Hawks get. Who cares about the land zone. Seriously. Who cares if they have relationships with any Kingston people. Who cares how the land was sold. Why do we care if the Hawks members were told anything. Why do we care about the Waverley deal. And who cares about council minutes. Conspiracies are your go. Your questions are a waste of time. Maybe you get onto this Rushie and change the hawks mind like you have arranged WADA appealing the Essendon case.

The move by the Hawks has no effect on us and we also have no right to worry about what they are doing. Its their business and nothing to do with us.

Well, I care. I don't want this monstrous home base for the Hawks in our backyard.
It is not about conspiracy theory, this is about long term strategic planning by another club to gain a beachhead in our heartland.
I am not trying to be hysterical about this - this is how competitive business is done. And people need to wake up to the existential threat this poses into the long term.
If you can't see what is happening at a league level and how strategically this facility has been positioned then you're blind.
Try to put petty rivalries aside because this is actually an issue where we all need to come together.

It is easier to be apathetic or ignore it and hope it goes away but it won't, it will only get worse from here. We actually have to try to do something.
At the very least voice your concerns to the club.

Firstly it is none of the saints business. We left the Kingston council and now you want to whinge to them for letting another AFL side in. Why would they care about what we think. And they are Km from us anyway. About 8 I reckon. And I cant see what is happening at league level so if you could explain it that would be great. I cant see how it even slightly effects us. Its hysterical crap IMO. And nothing to do with rivalries. If we all got together we still cant stop it because its none of our business. I don't even think the club would really care. The hawks were obviously buying this land before we announced we were coming back so there is no conspiracy that they are trying to get into our turf. Id love to hear how you think it effects us long term. Sounds way over the top. I certainly have no interest in stopping them moving to Dingley. None at all. I will leave it for those who think they can somehow stop it. For what reason I have no idea.

That's fine. You don't want don't think its anything and its all hyperbolic crap then great - don't worry about it.
I am not going to get into a p*ssing contest with you and activate egos, it is a waste of time.

For those that do want to know what is being talked about at the league level then read the following link:

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/b ... hh30v.html

After reading that article then think again about the Hawks planned new home base in context.
They are planning for the next 100 years not the next 10-15.

So you cant be bothered explaining to me the problems. Even if we get zones back, which I doubt, they aren't going to just be near training bases. That illogical otherwise the pies, tigers and Melbourne will have the smallest zones ever and in industrial areas. All clubs would get equal zones. Whether the Hawks train in Dingley or Glen Waverley it will make little difference. As I said we cant stop it anyway. We have no right. Some people just cant discuss things logically so they then pull out of discussing it at all.

OK, first is people need to know what is happening.
So if you can't be bothered to read and get up to speed then we can't work through the issues.

Seperating out the issues 1. Player academies 2. Zoning
Player academies are coming & are the future - we know that.
In a competitive landscape the biggest & best are going to be the most attractive to local young footy players.
In fact a state of the art facility with a highly successful club such as Hawthorn will be a MAGNET for young players. It doesn't need to be across the road to be a competitive threat - it's not Pizza Hut.
It will pull kids from right across the Sotuh to South East of Melb.
Putting zoning to the side for one minute, if you have a young player in the Pennisula who can take his pick between going to the Hawk's Dingley base or a Saints Moorabin facility which one do they go to?
I say, it will an extremely difficult to compete with head-to-head.

Zoning is difficult issue, the most opaque and will be the most contentious for clubs.
There however will be some drive to make zones consistent with the geographic position of the club. That's is where the club can best service the local community, offer its services and cultivate talent.
This would mean the Hawks are directly in the geographic corridor of the Saints' natural catchment zone.
Even if there is ultimately a stoush on zones bw the Hawks and Saints at the AFL level my guess is, when you're talking about reinforcing or protecting the game from other codes, this facility will be seen by the AFL as an asset and with more resources behind them the likelihood is the Hawks will win the day.
At a bare minimum it is a stake in the ground by the Hawks to claim part of what should be our zone.
There is also poaching from zones that is likely to occur which requires willing participants - Learning at a state of the art facilitiy could get you over the line.

On saying all of this it is a very fluid situation and may transpire in various ways but one thing you can bet on - Hawthorn have taken account of the possibilities and have made their move.
People ay what can we do about it, it is up to Hawthorn and its nobody else's business - which is wrong.
We are both in the business of football, drawing in and developing talent. There is a competition governed by the AFL which seeks to ensure fairness and prevent any club gaining a monopoly.
When another club relocates into our heartland, when the player development rules are changing and zoning is being muted then we as a club have every right to ask the AFL to tell Hawthorn to cease and desist with their plans to relocate to
Dingley until there is total clarity on the outcome.

Just ask that everyboy think carefully about what I am positing. Do your own research, make up your own mind but don't ignore the issue.
We are on notice.

The AFL aren't going to let clubs just grab players from close to their training base whether we call it zones or academies. I still think don't there will be either. Its a backward step. Buts lets just say they do well then the AFL will tell cltbs you can only get players from certain areas. Hawthorn may have the Hawthorn area and the Dingley area. We will probably have the St Kilda and Moorabbin area. And The club wont tell the AFL to stop the Hawks moving in. Not a hope and even if they did the AFL will say its none of their business. There are 3 clubs within 2 KM of each other in Richmond so why would they care about 2 sides 10km apart. It is no ones business where the hawks train apart from their supporters.

Well, you obviously read a different article than I did. People who run clubs are now pushing for it and there's precendent for it. You think a zoning catchment is only going to be Dingley & Hawthorn and that is going to be sufficient? No, you're way off the mark. Clubs will be vying for local and interstate access. As to what happens to other clubs' zones who cares? We need protect our own space. As to what the AFL will or will not say that's pure speculation based on your view, there is no precedent to base that on.

This has the classic hallmarks of 15 to 20 years down the track Saints supporters saying "Why didn't we see it coming & try to do something about it?".

I see that you just don't bother to address the point of 3 clubs within a k of each other because it completely makes your paranoia look silly. And what the AFL will do or say is based on actual history. They don't give a stuff where clubs train. Fact.

Why does this hinge on me providing you a solution on what zones 3 clubs are going to have? Sure it will be complicated for them but that's thier problem. I don't think we want or need our situation complicated by an interloper 5 minutes to midnight.
You think it's paranoia? Fine - go back to sleep. Wednesday you were saying "No Hope" to academies, 24 hours later there's an article by Caroline Wilson on the AFL's initiative to bring them in! And you're still in denial.
So excuse me but I don't think I'll trust your judgement on this matter. Thanks.

Amazingly weak response when challenged with your paranoia. No considered or logical response but fun all the same. Still no hope of acadimies unless you trust everything written in the paper. Or do you only trust topics that suit your paranoia.

[stjay]

Hi all,
This is the time where you need to think like I did, for Mark Thompson and his dodgy property deal at Armstrong Creek, Geelong.

This WILL Impact your club, as Hawthorn must have a relationship with the City of Kingston to have this section of land in Dingley. Hawthorn will now be lobbying the City of Kingston for as much funds as possible.

The Dingley locals like think of their Village as a closed off part of Melbourne (I’ve dealt with them in a previous job).

You need to ask yourself the following:

- What Land Zoning does this land current have (check DPCD or Kingston Plannign Scheme)
- Will this land be re-zoned in the near future
- Does any Hawthorn FC officials have a relationship/link to Councillors/Senior Managers at the City of Kingston?
- Does any Hawthorn FC officials have a relationship/link to Councillors/Senior Managers at the EPA? (I know one Hawthorn FC Board Member has investments in Wind Farms)
- Was this land sold exclusively to Hawthorn, or was it sold by Tender?
- Were Hawthorn FC members informed via previous AGMs/Board Meeting Minutes that the club was looking to invest in a new home?
- The original 1999 Mirvac/State Govt/AFL deal for Waverley Park, are there any clauses there that impact on this deal?
- Are there any Council Meeting Minutes/Official Correspondence available under FOI from the City of Kingston that mention anything about Hawthorn FC legally acquiring this land?

They’re the questions I’d be asking.

Thanks.

Rushie our money has already been approved so who cares what the Hawks get. Who cares about the land zone. Seriously. Who cares if they have relationships with any Kingston people. Who cares how the land was sold. Why do we care if the Hawks members were told anything. Why do we care about the Waverley deal. And who cares about council minutes. Conspiracies are your go. Your questions are a waste of time. Maybe you get onto this Rushie and change the hawks mind like you have arranged WADA appealing the Essendon case.

The move by the Hawks has no effect on us and we also have no right to worry about what they are doing. Its their business and nothing to do with us.

Well, I care. I don't want this monstrous home base for the Hawks in our backyard.
It is not about conspiracy theory, this is about long term strategic planning by another club to gain a beachhead in our heartland.
I am not trying to be hysterical about this - this is how competitive business is done. And people need to wake up to the existential threat this poses into the long term.
If you can't see what is happening at a league level and how strategically this facility has been positioned then you're blind.
Try to put petty rivalries aside because this is actually an issue where we all need to come together.

It is easier to be apathetic or ignore it and hope it goes away but it won't, it will only get worse from here. We actually have to try to do something.
At the very least voice your concerns to the club.

Firstly it is none of the saints business. We left the Kingston council and now you want to whinge to them for letting another AFL side in. Why would they care about what we think. And they are Km from us anyway. About 8 I reckon. And I cant see what is happening at league level so if you could explain it that would be great. I cant see how it even slightly effects us. Its hysterical crap IMO. And nothing to do with rivalries. If we all got together we still cant stop it because its none of our business. I don't even think the club would really care. The hawks were obviously buying this land before we announced we were coming back so there is no conspiracy that they are trying to get into our turf. Id love to hear how you think it effects us long term. Sounds way over the top. I certainly have no interest in stopping them moving to Dingley. None at all. I will leave it for those who think they can somehow stop it. For what reason I have no idea.

That's fine. You don't want don't think its anything and its all hyperbolic crap then great - don't worry about it.
I am not going to get into a p*ssing contest with you and activate egos, it is a waste of time.

For those that do want to know what is being talked about at the league level then read the following link:

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/b ... hh30v.html

After reading that article then think again about the Hawks planned new home base in context.
They are planning for the next 100 years not the next 10-15.

So you cant be bothered explaining to me the problems. Even if we get zones back, which I doubt, they aren't going to just be near training bases. That illogical otherwise the pies, tigers and Melbourne will have the smallest zones ever and in industrial areas. All clubs would get equal zones. Whether the Hawks train in Dingley or Glen Waverley it will make little difference. As I said we cant stop it anyway. We have no right. Some people just cant discuss things logically so they then pull out of discussing it at all.

OK, first is people need to know what is happening.
So if you can't be bothered to read and get up to speed then we can't work through the issues.

Seperating out the issues 1. Player academies 2. Zoning
Player academies are coming & are the future - we know that.
In a competitive landscape the biggest & best are going to be the most attractive to local young footy players.
In fact a state of the art facility with a highly successful club such as Hawthorn will be a MAGNET for young players. It doesn't need to be across the road to be a competitive threat - it's not Pizza Hut.
It will pull kids from right across the Sotuh to South East of Melb.
Putting zoning to the side for one minute, if you have a young player in the Pennisula who can take his pick between going to the Hawk's Dingley base or a Saints Moorabin facility which one do they go to?
I say, it will an extremely difficult to compete with head-to-head.

Zoning is difficult issue, the most opaque and will be the most contentious for clubs.
There however will be some drive to make zones consistent with the geographic position of the club. That's is where the club can best service the local community, offer its services and cultivate talent.
This would mean the Hawks are directly in the geographic corridor of the Saints' natural catchment zone.
Even if there is ultimately a stoush on zones bw the Hawks and Saints at the AFL level my guess is, when you're talking about reinforcing or protecting the game from other codes, this facility will be seen by the AFL as an asset and with more resources behind them the likelihood is the Hawks will win the day.
At a bare minimum it is a stake in the ground by the Hawks to claim part of what should be our zone.
There is also poaching from zones that is likely to occur which requires willing participants - Learning at a state of the art facilitiy could get you over the line.

On saying all of this it is a very fluid situation and may transpire in various ways but one thing you can bet on - Hawthorn have taken account of the possibilities and have made their move.
People ay what can we do about it, it is up to Hawthorn and its nobody else's business - which is wrong.
We are both in the business of football, drawing in and developing talent. There is a competition governed by the AFL which seeks to ensure fairness and prevent any club gaining a monopoly.
When another club relocates into our heartland, when the player development rules are changing and zoning is being muted then we as a club have every right to ask the AFL to tell Hawthorn to cease and desist with their plans to relocate to
Dingley until there is total clarity on the outcome.

Just ask that everyboy think carefully about what I am positing. Do your own research, make up your own mind but don't ignore the issue.
We are on notice.

The AFL aren't going to let clubs just grab players from close to their training base whether we call it zones or academies. I still think don't there will be either. Its a backward step. Buts lets just say they do well then the AFL will tell cltbs you can only get players from certain areas. Hawthorn may have the Hawthorn area and the Dingley area. We will probably have the St Kilda and Moorabbin area. And The club wont tell the AFL to stop the Hawks moving in. Not a hope and even if they did the AFL will say its none of their business. There are 3 clubs within 2 KM of each other in Richmond so why would they care about 2 sides 10km apart. It is no ones business where the hawks train apart from their supporters.

Well, you obviously read a different article than I did. People who run clubs are now pushing for it and there's precendent for it. You think a zoning catchment is only going to be Dingley & Hawthorn and that is going to be sufficient? No, you're way off the mark. Clubs will be vying for local and interstate access. As to what happens to other clubs' zones who cares? We need protect our own space. As to what the AFL will or will not say that's pure speculation based on your view, there is no precedent to base that on.

This has the classic hallmarks of 15 to 20 years down the track Saints supporters saying "Why didn't we see it coming & try to do something about it?".

I see that you just don't bother to address the point of 3 clubs within a k of each other because it completely makes your paranoia look silly. And what the AFL will do or say is based on actual history. They don't give a stuff where clubs train. Fact.

Why does this hinge on me providing you a solution on what zones 3 clubs are going to have? Sure it will be complicated for them but that's thier problem. I don't think we want or need our situation complicated by an interloper 5 minutes to midnight.
You think it's paranoia? Fine - go back to sleep. Wednesday you were saying "No Hope" to academies, 24 hours later there's an article by Caroline Wilson on the AFL's initiative to bring them in! And you're still in denial.
So excuse me but I don't think I'll trust your judgement on this matter. Thanks.

Amazingly weak response when challenged with your paranoia. No considered or logical response but fun all the same. Still no hope of acadimies unless you trust everything written in the paper. Or do you only trust topics that suit your paranoia.

Alright. Well we will have to agree to disagree. As I suspected, this is becoming more about your ego and using Ad hominems rather than a well informed, well reasoned point of view. Good on you.

[plugger66]

Alright. Well we will have to agree to disagree. As I suspected, this is becoming more about your ego and using Ad hominems rather than a well informed, well reasoned point of view. Good on you.

Even weaker. Why my ego but not yours? I will tell you why. because you have no logical response so it becomes personal. Pretty weak, no very weak and playing on emotion. I am the only one who has given logical responses. You have given me a laugh.

[stjay]

Alright. Well we will have to agree to disagree. As I suspected, this is becoming more about your ego and using Ad hominems rather than a well informed, well reasoned point of view. Good on you.

Even weaker. Why my ego but not yours? I will tell you why. because you have no logical response so it becomes personal. Pretty weak, no very weak and playing on emotion. I am the only one who has given logical responses. You have given me a laugh.

Yep, that's right. Anyone reading this would say I am being the one making it personal. Good on you.

[plugger66]

Alright. Well we will have to agree to disagree. As I suspected, this is becoming more about your ego and using Ad hominems rather than a well informed, well reasoned point of view. Good on you.

Even weaker. Why my ego but not yours? I will tell you why. because you have no logical response so it becomes personal. Pretty weak, no very weak and playing on emotion. I am the only one who has given logical responses. You have given me a laugh.

Yep, that's right. Anyone reading this would say I am being the one making it personal. Good on you.

Agreed. Thank you. We finally have something in common.

[satchmo]

stJay makes some excellent points.

Not sure what pluggers point is.

[plugger66]

stJay makes some excellent points.

Not sure what pluggers point is.

My point is simple. We have no right and no say in where another team trains and secondly where they train has no effect on us what so ever unless of course it is effecting Richmond, Melbourne and the pies training within a kilometre of each other. I actually don't get his points at all. it makes no common sense. I wish you could explain the issue of another team training 10 kilometres from us because I cant see any issue at all.

[satchmo]

stJay makes some excellent points.

Not sure what pluggers point is.

My point is simple. We have no right and no say in where another team trains and secondly where they train has no effect on us what so ever unless of course it is effecting Richmond, Melbourne and the pies training within a kilometre of each other. I actually don't get his points at all. it makes no common sense. I wish you could explain the issue of another team training 10 kilometres from us because I cant see any issue at all.

I think that it's pretty clear that with hawthorn at Dingley, they will compete for council hand outs/funding. Kingston City Council might be right on board with us at the moment, but who can tell what they might do in the future?
The community services that a centre at Moorabbin might provide might be just as easily provided at Dingley...which way would the council swing? Community involvement is a key method of clubs earning funding. We have already seen what happens when the council is not on board with our plans, so competition for funding is clearly not desirable.

The tigers/demons/pies situation is very different, especially in that the tigers/demons have been living together for nearly all of their history, and the pies not only have bucket loads of cash, they also seem to have amazing luck politically.

[plugger66]

stJay makes some excellent points.

Not sure what pluggers point is.

My point is simple. We have no right and no say in where another team trains and secondly where they train has no effect on us what so ever unless of course it is effecting Richmond, Melbourne and the pies training within a kilometre of each other. I actually don't get his points at all. it makes no common sense. I wish you could explain the issue of another team training 10 kilometres from us because I cant see any issue at all.

I think that it's pretty clear that with hawthorn at Dingley, they will compete for council hand outs/funding. Kingston City Council might be right on board with us at the moment, but who can tell what they might do in the future?
The community services that a centre at Moorabbin might provide might be just as easily provided at Dingley...which way would the council swing? Community involvement is a key method of clubs earning funding. We have already seen what happens when the council is not on board with our plans, so competition for funding is clearly not desirable.

The tigers/demons/pies situation is very different, especially in that the tigers/demons have been living together for nearly all of their history, and the pies not only have bucket loads of cash, they also seem to have amazing luck politically.

Of course they are different because its impossible to argue that has to effect on any of the sides. As the Kinston council well firstly they have already approved our funds so I don't get issue and secondly the Hawks are 5 years away from going there and haven't even got close to asking for money. I have no idea why people jump at these shadows. There are actually no shadows to jump at. Just to amuse people who are worried, can you actually tell us what our club or supporters could do if there are these fantasy issues anyway?

[satchmo]

No need to worry. But worthy of discussion.
Community involvement is an important factor in the clubs survival. Many things will compete for community resources. Not just talking about upfront cash to establish, but ongoing support.
Stands to reason that less competition is more desirable.

[stjay]

I was quite explicit with what I am saying.
In regards to zoning. There is likely to be a very strong local component to it. And just as the Western Bulldogs nautral zone is likely to be a large chunk of Outer West North West Melb, our zone is the outer South of Melb from Bayside to the Pennisula. This is stated in our 2020 mission statement as our core base and a strategic asset.
For clubs like Richmond & Melbourne the local aspect of the zone will, no doubt, be harder to identify although they will probably carve up Eastern to parts of South East Melb. But who cares? Ultimately that's their problem to find a negotiated solution.
We didn't have that same problem. Until now.
The Hawks are setting up a state of the art facility in our natural zone which creates an opposing claim to local talent thereby undermining our base . It is not rocket science, it is how competitive business and corporate strategy works.

To suggest that we don't have a right to have objections or the abilty to influence where they set up whilst the talent development and zoning issues are so fluid and yet to be decided is utter nonsense.
I put this hypothetical situation to you to test the logic of what I am saying.
What would happen if the AFL told Hawthorn that St.Kilda's zone will be through the southern corridor to the Pennisula which included Dingley or; even still, that they were providing an zoning allotment to another club next to ours pushing the Hawks' zone even further East?
How quickly would the EPA concerns at the site become an issue for them?
How long would it take for them to reconsider their $50mil investment in Dingley?
They would be out of there in a flash, why? Because the new facility is about laying a claim to get access to local talent, our local talent.

It is not about what I or anybody else here thinks should or could not happen, there is already precedent with the interstate clubs, major Victorian clubs want it and the AFL thinks it is important for the protection of the game.
This is what is being trashed out at the league level and clubs are palnning major investments to pre-position themselves for the new environment.
That's why you get a major announcement of Hawthorn's new training facility on Wednesday and an article by Caroline Wilson about the AFL new player academy & recruitment intiative on Thursday.

I am not fussed as to who shares my view although I am yet to hear any well-reasoned argument to the contrary other than "No I don't think so, you're paranoid" which is the mature version of the schoolyard argument "Shut up, it is not. You're smelly!" . Not very compelling or logical.
Time will tell but I sense we are about to get seriously shafted here if we are not careful.

[plugger66]

I was quite explicit with what I am saying.
In regards to zoning. There is likely to be a very strong local component to it. And just as the Western Bulldogs nautral zone is likely to be a large chunk of Outer West North West Melb, our zone is the outer South of Melb from Bayside to the Pennisula. This is stated in our 2020 mission statement as our core base and a strategic asset.
For clubs like Richmond & Melbourne the local aspect of the zone will, no doubt, be harder to identify although they will probably carve up Eastern to parts of South East Melb. But who cares? Ultimately that's their problem to find a negotiated solution.
We didn't have that same problem. Until now.
The Hawks are setting up a state of the art facility in our natural zone which creates an opposing claim to local talent thereby undermining our base . It is not rocket science, it is how competitive business and corporate strategy works.

To suggest that we don't have a right to have objections or the abilty to influence where they set up whilst the talent development and zoning issues are so fluid and yet to be decided is utter nonsense.
I put this hypothetical situation to you to test the logic of what I am saying.
What would happen if the AFL told Hawthorn that St.Kilda's zone will be through the southern corridor to the Pennisula which included Dingley or; even still, that they were providing an zoning allotment to another club next to ours pushing the Hawks' zone even further East?
How quickly would the EPA concerns at the site become an issue for them?
How long would it take for them to reconsider their $50mil investment in Dingley?
They would be out of there in a flash, why? Because the new facility is about laying a claim to get access to local talent, our local talent.

It is not about what I or anybody else here thinks should or could not happen, there is already precedent with the interstate clubs, major Victorian clubs want it and the AFL thinks it is important for the protection of the game.
This is what is being trashed out at the league level and clubs are palnning major investments to pre-position themselves for the new environment.
That's why you get a major announcement of Hawthorn's new training facility on Wednesday and an article by Caroline Wilson about the AFL new player academy & recruitment intiative on Thursday.

I am not fussed as to who shares my view although I am yet to hear any well-reasoned argument to the contrary other than "No I don't think so, you're paranoid" which is the mature version of the schoolyard argument "Shut up, it is not. You're smelly!" . Not very compelling or logical.
Time will tell but I sense we are about to get seriously shafted here if we are not careful.

Im pretty sure my argument was also well reasoned but I do find people who try to say otherwise without logical reason are struggling. I gave my reasons. pity you either didn't read them or couldn't understand. Your reasons lack logic but that's ok. By the way most of the stuff you have written is a waste of words. EPA? What the? Just one simple question. How could the Saints even slightly stop the Hawks moving? Couldn't be a more simple question.

[howlinwolf]

Just to lighten the mood a little. Tune in to this podcast at 35.01 for the couldabeens take on this subject

http://www.abc.net.au/coodabeens/featur ... abeens.xml

[stjay]

Just to lighten the mood a little. Tune in to this podcast at 35.01 for the couldabeens take on this subject

http://www.abc.net.au/coodabeens/featur ... abeens.xml

Would be keen to listen to it but I can't get that link to work.
Could you please repost it HW?

[stjay]

Im pretty sure my argument was also well reasoned but I do find people who try to say otherwise without logical reason are struggling. I gave my reasons. pity you either didn't read them or couldn't understand. Your reasons lack logic but that's ok. By the way most of the stuff you have written is a waste of words. EPA? What the? Just one simple question. How could the Saints even slightly stop the Hawks moving? Couldn't be a more simple question.

- The site has problems. Being land fill, there's an issue with excess methane leaking from the site effecting the local community and it requires constant EPA monitoring.
- Hawthorn's move is not a done deal. Their purchase of the land is conditional and they are going through an 18 month due dilligence and can walk away at anytime without an issue.
- There's many ways to make them reconsider the move. In basic terms it's about applying pressure and in light of the academy & zoning discussion which is going on, the club could be very public in their displeasure.
A "Big club tries to squeeze out little club" type line would get fair-minded people upset. Bad press works. But as I suggested earlier if the AFL stepped in and advised them that any future zoning decisions wouldn't be effected by the location of their new facility (i.e just bc they move to Dingley will not give them a claim to the surrounding area) then my guess is they may back off. Point is, we are not without options to apply pressure and hopefully get them to reconsider.

[howlinwolf]

Just to lighten the mood a little. Tune in to this podcast at 35.01 for the couldabeens take on this subject

http://www.abc.net.au/coodabeens/featur ... abeens.xml

Would be keen to listen to it but I can't get that link to work.
Could you please repost it HW?

I'm no IT expert and did have some trouble getting the podcast to work.

Try pasting it into itunes, file,subscribe to podcast. That worked for me.

Hope it works because it's pretty funny. Greg Champion singing to the tune of Hotel California.
There are some other very funny tunes also.

[saintspremiers]

St Jay and plugger please stop requoting each other. Get a room and sort out your pissing contest there please. Ta