I'm torn...

[Bunk_Moreland]

So you feel by finishing 2 places higher this year it will be that siginificant culturally to our climb up the ladder in 3-4years time ?

You see, I dont think anyone will even remember it.

IF we finish 14th as opposed to 16th and because of draft order/selection and miss out on an absolute gun for the next decade.....I think people will remember that...

Regardless, I agree with you....the current system does help you for finishing lower and any supposed benefit by winning short term arent measurable (and IMHO not all that long lasting...). Its a bit like getting all pumped up for milestone games but as Ross Lyon used to say.....once you cross the line that emotion last 2 minutes and isnt ultimately what decides whether you win or lose.

Missing out on a gun player cause for some non measurable benefit you decide finishing 14th over 16th was a better solution...that can have lasting on field impacts...

No I don't think it will really help in the future but I don't want to wait 3 years to see if it helps in the future to lose games like last Sunday. That would be plainly silly. Its really a bit of fantasy to think pick 3 will change our future but pick 5 wont.

Is it really fantasy?

If pick 3 is Buddy Franklin and pick 5 is Fiora and having a higher selection in the draft means you get that choice before those later.......is that really fantasy? or is that simply just the system we operate in and therefore, for some short term non measurable self gratification we beat up lowly Brisbane, is that really smart, long term strategic thinking to help us get to our ultimate aim which isnt to be just competitive - its to win premierships?

I'll take Buddy thanks.

Fiora was a pick 3 and Buddy was a pick 5. Richmond selected Tambling before Buddy

Hi Bunk

Mighr be worth reading back a few posts.

The point here is about ultimateky what benefit the AFL draft system provides for finishing lower. That benefit is choice.
It doesnt guarantee Buddy or Tambling. It guarantees choice and between first choice and a later choice I'll take first everytime.

Can that be stuffed up at selection? yes.

Not the point though.

Lets put this anotjher way - is 5th pick in the draft better than 1st?, 2nd?....?why?

We could round in circles, but of course you have a better opportunity to choose a star @ No.1 than @ No.5, but equally it is just as easy to pick a Fyfe @ 20 or a Buddy @ 5, it depends on the recruiters.

If we had the recruiters from the Lyon I would be with you, however our current team is kicking goals with our selections.

Acres @18
Dunstan @ 19
Bruce foe pick 48
Goddard for pick 21
DMac @ 22
Sinclair rookie

For me, I will back our recruiters to currently get the job done with pick 3 or pick 6.

add to that the FA and OOC advantage we have at seasons end and we have the cash to attract a Sloane or a Sheil or someone of high calabre

Also the confidence a Newnes or a Webster or a Roberton etc who have been at the club for a few years gets from wins is invaluable.

I cant stress the importance I place on winning. Look at the mess Melbourne are in. arguably better talent on the list, but seem heartless and keep getting easily rolled over.

I will take a win any day it is received, any day.

One year soon we will be bottom eight. We will need to win 12-13 games. Will that be too many? you see we wont rocket up the charts, we wont be top four straight away.

Hypothetical. Would you be upset if by some miracle we won enough games this season to sneak into the finals? (wont happen, but lets just say)

[saintsRrising]

. No surprises that side was build off the back of top draft picks and a champion at 1.

Nice fairy tale. But the team was built on more factors thtn just draft picks. The team was a blend of picks and:
* a core of very good players from the 97 tilt
* the Blight effect that helped us gain very good players like GTrain and Hamill
* some good mid-tier picks ups from other clubs like Voss, Powell etc

What a load of cliched nonsense
Do tell me how many games were won by the onfield presence of Thomas/Butters as we drove up the ladder in early 2000's?

THE POINT (again conveniently ignored), we achieved access to a decade long champion not by finishing 9th with good mediocre efforts but by being cellar dwellers and getting access to the first pick in that draft. Of course it's not the only factor in the rise but blind freddy knows that and I don't deal in cliches

That young saints side was driven off the back of high end draft picks from Roo, Kozzie, Clarke, Ball, Goddard et al - don't delude yourself Brett Voss was the key ingredient that's semantics

And you delude yourself again and ignore Banger, Hayes, Hamill, GTrain, Fisher, Milne and others.

THE POINT = Roo? You had divine knowledge that he would be as good as he turned out? WTF happened then when we did not take Judd? What picking lower is not a certainty??
For that matter if having a lower pick is the be all to end all:
Why did we take Beetham over Glass?
Why did we take X Clarke over Bartel?
Why did we take Raph over Mundy?
Why did we take Ferguson over Lonergan?
Why did we take McQualter over Van Berlo?
THE POINT IS THAT NO LOW PICK IS A LOCK!!!!!!!!!!!

THE POINT = Do you know that there is a player as good Roo in this years Draft? Can you name him now?

THE POINT = How do you know that the No1 this year will not be the next Jack Watts?

THE POINT = a losing culture guarantees lack of success.

THE POINT = to deliberately lose year after year after year condemns a team to a permanent state of losing.

THE POINT = is there even one team that you can point to that has built success from a sustained period on the bottom? The Blues had more No 1 picks than the Saints. How did they go in recent years? How have the Dees gone?

THE POINT= That one player is not enough to guarantee succes. You need a team.

No the successful may have dipped down, but only momentarily. They did many other things right to rebuild their lists. Their focus was on overall improvement Yes some low picks can obviously be helpful, but without doing many, many things right they will count for naught. To continually finish low means that a club is doing many things badly.

[SaintPav]

We're top of the bottom rung of teams.

Can anyone realistically see us finishing higher than were we currently are on the ladder?

No risk of us finishing mid table somewhere like 9th which to many is the place of dead roads.

So worse case scenario is pick 5 in the draft.

So the baseline isn't finishing 9th v 18th. It's 14th v 18th and the draft results are reasonably random.

Does anyone really think that the idea of "lets keep losing until we're ready to climb the ladder" really work? I don't think so.

I do agree that we may need to keep manufacturing additional and lower picks but it is getting harder to do this each year. We'll have to give up something for that to happen and I'm not channeling what's his face either.

So you agree we will continue to need lower picks but would rather we give up something to get them?

I think I'll take my chances with the short term pain now.

Is a rise up the ladder guaranteed for anyone? no.
Can we have pick 1 and stuff it up? yes.
Should we get ourselves the highest choice available while we are losing games? IMHO yes as its the only benefit this current shytty system offers.Take it, choose wisely and cross everything that the draft gods serve up another Judd, Ball, Hodge year.....

Yes, and I'm not sure how, but an extra first round draft pick or early second round pick would be nice.

Easy to say game the system and finish last to secure the prize but it will obviously comes at a price, which is finishing after Carlton and they are currently a rabble.

Do you want us to be worse than a rabble?

[plugger66]

Yep lets finish last and get the first picl. If only it was all that simple. Firstly why would people even bother with the year if all the supporters had that attitude. Why would you attend games if you really had no interest in them winning. may as well fast forward to next year or is that still to early to hope to get off the bottom. Lets fast forward 2 years then and get those 2 number one picks. Don't worry about FA who don't want to come to us because they see no improvement. Don't worry about uncontracted players who wont come to us because they see no improvement.

So in the end by finishing last for the next 2 years we get 2 number one players who are unproven and then the rest of the picks are worse than the premiers. We get no uncontracted or FA because they see no improvement. We get bugger all to the games because they don't care. We get less sponsors and less members because no one cares. And lastly we lose our coach and have to start again in that regard.

Or the other option is we try to win every single game over the next 2 years and we win about 6 to 8 a year because that is about where we are at. We finish in the bottom 5 and get 2 top 5 picks who are also unproven but the big difference is we may get a proven very good uncontracted player and a proven very good FA because they see the gradual improvement in the side. We get new sponsors because we are on the up. We get good crowds because they see we are on the up. We get new members because they can see we are on the up and we keep our coach and who has set this all up.

Im going the second option.

[Sainternist]

Wow. This thread is still going. And it looks like The Fireman has well and truly lost the plot. Fancy telling people to say things to his face on a bloody internet forum. Gee whiz.

[asiu]

oh yea
... sorry Kosifantutti ... i didnt mean my request of you to protect your posters to come across as 'tart' as it sounded on rereading of the thread a few days ago.

... that i wasnt happy about CW 's treatment was the 'driver' of that exchange.
I get a stick up my dati when posters are denied a voice.

Sorry again ... just the nature of the beast , showing HerSelf once more.

[sasaint]

Yep lets finish last and get the first picl. If only it was all that simple. Firstly why would people even bother with the year if all the supporters had that attitude. Why would you attend games if you really had no interest in them winning. may as well fast forward to next year or is that still to early to hope to get off the bottom. Lets fast forward 2 years then and get those 2 number one picks. Don't worry about FA who don't want to come to us because they see no improvement. Don't worry about uncontracted players who wont come to us because they see no improvement.

So in the end by finishing last for the next 2 years we get 2 number one players who are unproven and then the rest of the picks are worse than the premiers. We get no uncontracted or FA because they see no improvement. We get bugger all to the games because they don't care. We get less sponsors and less members because no one cares. And lastly we lose our coach and have to start again in that regard.

Or the other option is we try to win every single game over the next 2 years and we win about 6 to 8 a year because that is about where we are at. We finish in the bottom 5 and get 2 top 5 picks who are also unproven but the big difference is we may get a proven very good uncontracted player and a proven very good FA because they see the gradual improvement in the side. We get new sponsors because we are on the up. We get good crowds because they see we are on the up. We get new members because they can see we are on the up and we keep our coach and who has set this all up.

Im going the second option.

tick

[philtee]

OMG - I'm agreeing with Plugger.

[kosifantutti]

oh yea
... sorry Kosifantutti ... i didnt mean my request of you to protect your posters to come across as 'tart' as it sounded on rereading of the thread a few days ago.

... that i wasnt happy about CW 's treatment was the 'driver' of that exchange.
I get a stick up my dati when posters are denied a voice.

Sorry again ... just the nature of the beast , showing HerSelf once more.

Don't worry WS.

I was just hoping that on one of your rare visits to the main forum, you would talk about the Saints.

[Austinnn]

It's a rubbish arguement, this tanking thing. I won't add to it as Plugger and who knows who else has already expressed perfectly reasonable points that refute it entirely.

All of us want more success, but I'm not prepared to deliberately be the worst team just to play list manager, and I have no time for those who do. Go and play Supercoach, and leave the footy alone.

[Austinnn]

Personally, I think the draft is different now than it was when Roo, or even Buddy were drafted, though it might change year to year. A lot more players have the potential to be elite level. Take the 2014 draft, you might expect all the players in the first round to be absolute guns, save for Carlton's. (ha)

With all the structures in place and how well-oiled the AIS is, I think the margins are too tiny to obsess over.

It's what happens to those draftees after they enter a club that will dictate their success. Would 2004 and 2005 have been as good to us if we'd had Roo and Kosi, Ball and BJ, but not G-train, Hamill, Voss, Powell, Guerra, Harvey, Burke, Milne (No. 23 2000 Rookie Draft)? If we'd had Malcolm Blight phoning it in for another year or two instead of a left-field coach prepared to empower the team?

If these draftees enter a club with a culture of having a crack and getting results, that is something to build on. Entering a club where the coaches have deliberately coached and selected to lose in order to get you, how is that inspiring a top work rate as a pro player? Even if you somehow were able to change the coach, and all the players associated with the tanking period, the club as a unit is a failure that you have to build up yourself from the bottom. So will that player be able to do that? They might have to do the same thing to get another gun, what happens then?

This whole arguement is built on Hawthorn's 2004 season, no? They lost Crawford with a broken arm, Nathan Thompson battled depression, their season sank into the abyss, they got a priority pick and 2nd pick, then Collingwood gave them pick 7 and Bo Nixon for Picks 10 and 37, which gave them Roughy, Buddy and Lewis. THey did the same thing the next year after they got Clarkson in and traded Hay and Lonie for more picks, also picking up another priority pick for coming 14th. This gave them Ellis, Dowler, Birchall and Bailey.

But in neither case did they get first pick. They also had two PPs under a system that has since been scrapped. They traded extremely well and as loathe as I am to admit it, they had a large group of ex-players from their last substantial period of triumph still involved with the club or media reinforcing the concept of Hawthorn as a strong glorious winning club. They had a new coach, experienced as an assistant with much to prove. They had a lot of money and a big supporter base, again still a generation who were living off the glory of their last era at the top. These reasons - as much as the fact they finished near the bottom on those years - are a reason for their success.

The GWS route to success will be proven or disproven in the next 5 years. Our club has enough history with under-performance and lack of competitiveness, I don't think we should aim for more, whatever the reward that we MIGHT or MIGHT NOT receive.

[asiu]

A) I was.
B) I am always reading this farken forum.
C) Any other snide shite u wanna get off your chest ?

[Teflon]

So you feel by finishing 2 places higher this year it will be that siginificant culturally to our climb up the ladder in 3-4years time ?

You see, I dont think anyone will even remember it.

IF we finish 14th as opposed to 16th and because of draft order/selection and miss out on an absolute gun for the next decade.....I think people will remember that...

Regardless, I agree with you....the current system does help you for finishing lower and any supposed benefit by winning short term arent measurable (and IMHO not all that long lasting...). Its a bit like getting all pumped up for milestone games but as Ross Lyon used to say.....once you cross the line that emotion last 2 minutes and isnt ultimately what decides whether you win or lose.

Missing out on a gun player cause for some non measurable benefit you decide finishing 14th over 16th was a better solution...that can have lasting on field impacts...

No I don't think it will really help in the future but I don't want to wait 3 years to see if it helps in the future to lose games like last Sunday. That would be plainly silly. Its really a bit of fantasy to think pick 3 will change our future but pick 5 wont.

Is it really fantasy?

If pick 3 is Buddy Franklin and pick 5 is Fiora and having a higher selection in the draft means you get that choice before those later.......is that really fantasy? or is that simply just the system we operate in and therefore, for some short term non measurable self gratification we beat up lowly Brisbane, is that really smart, long term strategic thinking to help us get to our ultimate aim which isnt to be just competitive - its to win premierships?

I'll take Buddy thanks.

Fiora was a pick 3 and Buddy was a pick 5. Richmond selected Tambling before Buddy

Hi Bunk

Mighr be worth reading back a few posts.

The point here is about ultimateky what benefit the AFL draft system provides for finishing lower. That benefit is choice.
It doesnt guarantee Buddy or Tambling. It guarantees choice and between first choice and a later choice I'll take first everytime.

Can that be stuffed up at selection? yes.

Not the point though.

Lets put this anotjher way - is 5th pick in the draft better than 1st?, 2nd?....?why?

We could round in circles, but of course you have a better opportunity to choose a star @ No.1 than @ No.5, but equally it is just as easy to pick a Fyfe @ 20 or a Buddy @ 5, it depends on the recruiters.

If we had the recruiters from the Lyon I would be with you, however our current team is kicking goals with our selections.

Acres @18
Dunstan @ 19
Bruce foe pick 48
Goddard for pick 21
DMac @ 22
Sinclair rookie

For me, I will back our recruiters to currently get the job done with pick 3 or pick 6.

add to that the FA and OOC advantage we have at seasons end and we have the cash to attract a Sloane or a Sheil or someone of high calabre

Also the confidence a Newnes or a Webster or a Roberton etc who have been at the club for a few years gets from wins is invaluable.

I cant stress the importance I place on winning. Look at the mess Melbourne are in. arguably better talent on the list, but seem heartless and keep getting easily rolled over.

I will take a win any day it is received, any day.

One year soon we will be bottom eight. We will need to win 12-13 games. Will that be too many? you see we wont rocket up the charts, we wont be top four straight away.

Hypothetical. Would you be upset if by some miracle we won enough games this season to sneak into the finals? (wont happen, but lets just say)

I think you said it all right there Bunk and no I dont agree about being easier to get selection 1 correct as opposed to 20 regardless how good your recruiters are thats nonsense.

Pick 1 is usually pick 1 for a good reason - not always a Riewoldt (thankfully the year we had FIRST CHOICE we got lucky and a once in a generation CHF bobbed up...)...imagined if we didnt have that FIRST CHOICE.

FWIW Im not advocating a trip down bottom for the next 6 years - our team has a 'road to 2018' strategy in place so the club doesnt either my point is while we are down make hay while the sun aint shining....

We'll win enough games and climb steadily - dont over play the 'must win now or we become Melbourne' thats nonsense too - we are St Kilda, we have a mortgage on mediocrity and if we were going to become Melbourne weve had enough years of ordinary performances before now to have done it.

[Teflon]

We're top of the bottom rung of teams.

Can anyone realistically see us finishing higher than were we currently are on the ladder?

No risk of us finishing mid table somewhere like 9th which to many is the place of dead roads.

So worse case scenario is pick 5 in the draft.

So the baseline isn't finishing 9th v 18th. It's 14th v 18th and the draft results are reasonably random.

Does anyone really think that the idea of "lets keep losing until we're ready to climb the ladder" really work? I don't think so.

I do agree that we may need to keep manufacturing additional and lower picks but it is getting harder to do this each year. We'll have to give up something for that to happen and I'm not channeling what's his face either.

So you agree we will continue to need lower picks but would rather we give up something to get them?

I think I'll take my chances with the short term pain now.

Is a rise up the ladder guaranteed for anyone? no.
Can we have pick 1 and stuff it up? yes.
Should we get ourselves the highest choice available while we are losing games? IMHO yes as its the only benefit this current shytty system offers.Take it, choose wisely and cross everything that the draft gods serve up another Judd, Ball, Hodge year.....

Yes, and I'm not sure how, but an extra first round draft pick or early second round pick would be nice.

Easy to say game the system and finish last to secure the prize but it will obviously comes at a price, which is finishing after Carlton and they are currently a rabble.

Do you want us to be worse than a rabble?

Whats the price and how is that measured?

I dont agree.

We are bottom now for a reason - the club is selling 'road to 2018' again for a reason SO the short period (and I stress short period)we are down lets maximise our choices is what Im saying.

I dont subscribe to the 'ohhh we will become Carlton' thats utter nonsense - different club, different people and I am very confident our people in charge have a course and we wont be Carlton (who are held ransomed by wealth benefactors and internal bickering)

Agree an extra first rounder/early second would be lovely - IMHO we simply still dont have enough A Grade .....love another top 5.....or so..

We'll slide when Roo, Chips, Montagna et al go so it all might take care of itself.......whatever happens I just hope we get the earliest CHOICE we can while we are bottoming out.

[Teflon]

Yep lets finish last and get the first picl. If only it was all that simple. Firstly why would people even bother with the year if all the supporters had that attitude. Why would you attend games if you really had no interest in them winning. may as well fast forward to next year or is that still to early to hope to get off the bottom. Lets fast forward 2 years then and get those 2 number one picks. Don't worry about FA who don't want to come to us because they see no improvement. Don't worry about uncontracted players who wont come to us because they see no improvement.

So in the end by finishing last for the next 2 years we get 2 number one players who are unproven and then the rest of the picks are worse than the premiers. We get no uncontracted or FA because they see no improvement. We get bugger all to the games because they don't care. We get less sponsors and less members because no one cares. And lastly we lose our coach and have to start again in that regard.

Or the other option is we try to win every single game over the next 2 years and we win about 6 to 8 a year because that is about where we are at. We finish in the bottom 5 and get 2 top 5 picks who are also unproven but the big difference is we may get a proven very good uncontracted player and a proven very good FA because they see the gradual improvement in the side. We get new sponsors because we are on the up. We get good crowds because they see we are on the up. We get new members because they can see we are on the up and we keep our coach and who has set this all up.

Im going the second option.

You sell pessimism like its going out of fashion. The sky wont fall in if we finish lowly for the next season or 2 (we will anyway) so stop scare mongering and pretending FA's (you gone back to that I cant believe it...desperate times..) wont come to us. They'll come cause they aint stupid and know when a list is choc full of talent and they have a hand full of cash....its a mercenary game now anyway so that points useless.

We wont finish last so lets not talk nonsense. But yes, while we are currently ordinary lest maximise our choice options.

Yes we all know you believe that should we use these years with a 'greater development focus than a winning focus' that somehow we'll be infected with some disease rendering us destined for the loser scrap heap forever.......again, pessimistic nonsense and you yourself admitted benefits from short term wins cant be measured (trust me when we start to climb no one will be looking back at that momentus victory over a dud Lions side in 2015....). They will remember that gun kid we selected cause we had the highest CHOICE this lovely AFL system made available to us..

Go for your choices Saints, maximise your bottoming out window - its an opportunity. Do put a cap on that time (club already has with road to 2108) and climb choc full of the highest, most talented kids in the land we can get our grubby hands on.

Then watch the FA's.....queue up.

[Teflon]

Personally, I think the draft is different now than it was when Roo, or even Buddy were drafted, though it might change year to year. A lot more players have the potential to be elite level. Take the 2014 draft, you might expect all the players in the first round to be absolute guns, save for Carlton's. (ha)

With all the structures in place and how well-oiled the AIS is, I think the margins are too tiny to obsess over.

It's what happens to those draftees after they enter a club that will dictate their success. Would 2004 and 2005 have been as good to us if we'd had Roo and Kosi, Ball and BJ, but not G-train, Hamill, Voss, Powell, Guerra, Harvey, Burke, Milne (No. 23 2000 Rookie Draft)? If we'd had Malcolm Blight phoning it in for another year or two instead of a left-field coach prepared to empower the team?

If these draftees enter a club with a culture of having a crack and getting results, that is something to build on. Entering a club where the coaches have deliberately coached and selected to lose in order to get you, how is that inspiring a top work rate as a pro player? Even if you somehow were able to change the coach, and all the players associated with the tanking period, the club as a unit is a failure that you have to build up yourself from the bottom. So will that player be able to do that? They might have to do the same thing to get another gun, what happens then?

This whole arguement is built on Hawthorn's 2004 season, no? They lost Crawford with a broken arm, Nathan Thompson battled depression, their season sank into the abyss, they got a priority pick and 2nd pick, then Collingwood gave them pick 7 and Bo Nixon for Picks 10 and 37, which gave them Roughy, Buddy and Lewis. THey did the same thing the next year after they got Clarkson in and traded Hay and Lonie for more picks, also picking up another priority pick for coming 14th. This gave them Ellis, Dowler, Birchall and Bailey.

But in neither case did they get first pick. They also had two PPs under a system that has since been scrapped. They traded extremely well and as loathe as I am to admit it, they had a large group of ex-players from their last substantial period of triumph still involved with the club or media reinforcing the concept of Hawthorn as a strong glorious winning club. They had a new coach, experienced as an assistant with much to prove. They had a lot of money and a big supporter base, again still a generation who were living off the glory of their last era at the top. These reasons - as much as the fact they finished near the bottom on those years - are a reason for their success.

The GWS route to success will be proven or disproven in the next 5 years. Our club has enough history with under-performance and lack of competitiveness, I don't think we should aim for more, whatever the reward that we MIGHT or MIGHT NOT receive.

Its not about the draft being different its about choice.

We are and will be bottom side for next few seasons regardless, thats out of our of hands.

Pretending 1 or 2 winds more now will somehow determine if we will suddenly morph into Melbourne as a loser club/culture is a simplistic argument that takes no account of the different clubs people/structures and makes no sense.

FACTS are the AFL draft system rewards lower placed sides with first selections of the BEST available talent at the draft table. Thats the prize. Undisputed.

I'd prefer to right now focus all efforts on targeting as much A grade talent as I can and be 1 pick higher in that pecking order in the event another Buddy shows up over 1 more win now that no one will remember in 5 years time anyday.

[Teflon]

. No surprises that side was build off the back of top draft picks and a champion at 1.

Nice fairy tale. But the team was built on more factors thtn just draft picks. The team was a blend of picks and:
* a core of very good players from the 97 tilt
* the Blight effect that helped us gain very good players like GTrain and Hamill
* some good mid-tier picks ups from other clubs like Voss, Powell etc

What a load of cliched nonsense
Do tell me how many games were won by the onfield presence of Thomas/Butters as we drove up the ladder in early 2000's?

THE POINT (again conveniently ignored), we achieved access to a decade long champion not by finishing 9th with good mediocre efforts but by being cellar dwellers and getting access to the first pick in that draft. Of course it's not the only factor in the rise but blind freddy knows that and I don't deal in cliches

That young saints side was driven off the back of high end draft picks from Roo, Kozzie, Clarke, Ball, Goddard et al - don't delude yourself Brett Voss was the key ingredient that's semantics

And you delude yourself again and ignore Banger, Hayes, Hamill, GTrain, Fisher, Milne and others.

THE POINT = Roo? You had divine knowledge that he would be as good as he turned out? WTF happened then when we did not take Judd? What picking lower is not a certainty??
For that matter if having a lower pick is the be all to end all:
Why did we take Beetham over Glass?
Why did we take X Clarke over Bartel?
Why did we take Raph over Mundy?
Why did we take Ferguson over Lonergan?
Why did we take McQualter over Van Berlo?
THE POINT IS THAT NO LOW PICK IS A LOCK!!!!!!!!!!!

THE POINT = Do you know that there is a player as good Roo in this years Draft? Can you name him now?

THE POINT = How do you know that the No1 this year will not be the next Jack Watts?

THE POINT = a losing culture guarantees lack of success.

THE POINT = to deliberately lose year after year after year condemns a team to a permanent state of losing.

THE POINT = is there even one team that you can point to that has built success from a sustained period on the bottom? The Blues had more No 1 picks than the Saints. How did they go in recent years? How have the Dees gone?

THE POINT= That one player is not enough to guarantee succes. You need a team.

No the successful may have dipped down, but only momentarily. They did many other things right to rebuild their lists. Their focus was on overall improvement Yes some low picks can obviously be helpful, but without doing many, many things right they will count for naught. To continually finish low means that a club is doing many things badly.

For the love of god what utter cliched ridden nonsense.....'do you know a team of champions wont beat a champion team...' mumbo jumbo.....whats next '1 swallow doth not a summer make...'

Honestly EVERYONE on this forum understands that draft selections alone dont build success - thats not even THE POINT of the discussion.
What is not disputed is that for any side to have success they must have TALENT. There are few ways to get that talent and 1 of the main ways ALL sides use is the AFL draft (keeping up?).
The current AFL system REWARDS lower sides with higher choices to select the best kid from the draft they can. We need to maximise talent into our club right now and using this tool is but 1 plank in building for success.
OFCOURSE the selection made needs to be correct (blind Freddy knows this again....more repated cliche rubbish) but before you even get that selection right/wrong you have position in a draft pecking order thats decided first.

I shudder to think about missing out on a Riewoldt cause we went pick 2, when he was a clear no 1 prospect and a once in a generation CHF (and yes BTW this was well spoken about and known BEFORE Roo was drafted and is why Brisbane fought so hard to claim him...remember???), all because you feel under Tim Watson back then it wouldve been better for us to win 1 or 2 more games to get some 'mystic' short term benefit from a win which by the way cant be measured (which in your logic would be so beneficial that it would outweigh the benefit of being able to select a Riewoldt at no 1..?????????????).

The mind boggles.

Again, its about maximising your choice options in the SHORT TERM while we are bottoming out (club knows this - Road to 2018??) - not pretending we will become Melbourne/Carlton or anyone else if we focus on building our talent pool over immediate wins right now, because lets face it our history already is littered with mediocrity so if we were going to be like those basket cases we've had plenty of opportunity.

The system rewards lower finishing sides with higher choices - THATS the benefit. Use it and while that has some short term pain be very clear about the long term game which has to be a list with enough A Grade talent to seriously challenge for a Premiership (not for just 1 year like Pies in 2010....even though they got one...) but for a sustained run at it.

Bottoming out has to be more strategic, given we dont operate in a system thats entirely equal, than just 'we must win now every week at all costs' - yes, I do believe in this cycle there are times when other things are more important than winning. BTW Thats not advocating not trying ...thats a different question entirely... but it does advocate that perhaps what we aim to take out of games in the immediate period has a different focus if we get that and lose....so be it. Will we win along the way? ofcourse we will and we are.....but lets be strategic with an eye on the longer term game.

All organisations take a step back to go forward at times - culture can be driven and nothing will breed it faster than success and that wont come if you dont have enough talent and IMO ground zero is the kids aka 2000/01......we built from that (how excited were Gehrig, Hamill and co to be at a St Kilda when EVERYONE was talking about how well we had drafted??)

Again, FA's will see that and that too will be our next medium term focus.

[magnifisaint]

This s*** thread still going??

[Teflon]

This s*** thread still going??

Yeah, but its just me now.....Ive convinced myself so its worth it.

Stick around, Im planning a counter-argument to myself to spice things up...

[saintsRrising]

For the love of god what utter cliched ridden nonsense.....'do you know a team of champions wont beat a champion team...' mumbo jumbo.....whats next '1 swallow doth not a summer make...'

Honestly EVERYONE on this forum understands that draft selections alone dont build success - thats not even THE POINT of the discussion.
What is not disputed is that for any side to have success they must have TALENT. There are few ways to get that talent and 1 of the main ways ALL sides use is the AFL draft (keeping up?).
The current AFL system REWARDS lower sides with higher choices to select the best kid from the draft they can. We need to maximise talent into our club right now and using this tool is but 1 plank in building for success.
OFCOURSE the selection made needs to be correct (blind Freddy knows this again....more repated cliche rubbish) but before you even get that selection right/wrong you have position in a draft pecking order thats decided first.

I shudder to think about missing out on a Riewoldt cause we went pick 2, when he was a clear no 1 prospect and a once in a generation CHF (and yes BTW this was well spoken about and known BEFORE Roo was drafted and is why Brisbane fought so hard to claim him...remember???), all because you feel under Tim Watson back then it wouldve been better for us to win 1 or 2 more games to get some 'mystic' short term benefit from a win which by the way cant be measured (which in your logic would be so beneficial that it would outweigh the benefit of being able to select a Riewoldt at no 1..?????????????).

The mind boggles.

Again, its about maximising your choice options in the SHORT TERM while we are bottoming out (club knows this - Road to 2018??) - not pretending we will become Melbourne/Carlton or anyone else if we focus on building our talent pool over immediate wins right now, because lets face it our history already is littered with mediocrity so if we were going to be like those basket cases we've had plenty of opportunity.

The system rewards lower finishing sides with higher choices - THATS the benefit. Use it and while that has some short term pain be very clear about the long term game which has to be a list with enough A Grade talent to seriously challenge for a Premiership (not for just 1 year like Pies in 2010....even though they got one...) but for a sustained run at it.

Bottoming out has to be more strategic, given we dont operate in a system thats entirely equal, than just 'we must win now every week at all costs' - yes, I do believe in this cycle there are times when other things are more important than winning. BTW Thats not advocating not trying ...thats a different question entirely... but it does advocate that perhaps what we aim to take out of games in the immediate period has a different focus if we get that and lose....so be it. Will we win along the way? ofcourse we will and we are.....but lets be strategic with an eye on the longer term game.

All organisations take a step back to go forward at times - culture can be driven and nothing will breed it faster than success and that wont come if you dont have enough talent and IMO ground zero is the kids aka 2000/01......we built from that (how excited were Gehrig, Hamill and co to be at a St Kilda when EVERYONE was talking about how well we had drafted??)

Again, FA's will see that and that too will be our next medium term focus.

A lot more words. Noting new. Your whole argument is too Roo based. Did we get a Roo in McCartin last year. I doubt it?

Is there a Roo at 1 next year. From what I have read I doubt it.

You are like the down at heel gambler who tells everyone about his big score and is blind to all his losses. But keeps lusting for his next big score.

[Teflon]

For the love of god what utter cliched ridden nonsense.....'do you know a team of champions wont beat a champion team...' mumbo jumbo.....whats next '1 swallow doth not a summer make...'

Honestly EVERYONE on this forum understands that draft selections alone dont build success - thats not even THE POINT of the discussion.
What is not disputed is that for any side to have success they must have TALENT. There are few ways to get that talent and 1 of the main ways ALL sides use is the AFL draft (keeping up?).
The current AFL system REWARDS lower sides with higher choices to select the best kid from the draft they can. We need to maximise talent into our club right now and using this tool is but 1 plank in building for success.
OFCOURSE the selection made needs to be correct (blind Freddy knows this again....more repated cliche rubbish) but before you even get that selection right/wrong you have position in a draft pecking order thats decided first.

I shudder to think about missing out on a Riewoldt cause we went pick 2, when he was a clear no 1 prospect and a once in a generation CHF (and yes BTW this was well spoken about and known BEFORE Roo was drafted and is why Brisbane fought so hard to claim him...remember???), all because you feel under Tim Watson back then it wouldve been better for us to win 1 or 2 more games to get some 'mystic' short term benefit from a win which by the way cant be measured (which in your logic would be so beneficial that it would outweigh the benefit of being able to select a Riewoldt at no 1..?????????????).

The mind boggles.

Again, its about maximising your choice options in the SHORT TERM while we are bottoming out (club knows this - Road to 2018??) - not pretending we will become Melbourne/Carlton or anyone else if we focus on building our talent pool over immediate wins right now, because lets face it our history already is littered with mediocrity so if we were going to be like those basket cases we've had plenty of opportunity.

The system rewards lower finishing sides with higher choices - THATS the benefit. Use it and while that has some short term pain be very clear about the long term game which has to be a list with enough A Grade talent to seriously challenge for a Premiership (not for just 1 year like Pies in 2010....even though they got one...) but for a sustained run at it.

Bottoming out has to be more strategic, given we dont operate in a system thats entirely equal, than just 'we must win now every week at all costs' - yes, I do believe in this cycle there are times when other things are more important than winning. BTW Thats not advocating not trying ...thats a different question entirely... but it does advocate that perhaps what we aim to take out of games in the immediate period has a different focus if we get that and lose....so be it. Will we win along the way? ofcourse we will and we are.....but lets be strategic with an eye on the longer term game.

All organisations take a step back to go forward at times - culture can be driven and nothing will breed it faster than success and that wont come if you dont have enough talent and IMO ground zero is the kids aka 2000/01......we built from that (how excited were Gehrig, Hamill and co to be at a St Kilda when EVERYONE was talking about how well we had drafted??)

Again, FA's will see that and that too will be our next medium term focus.

A lot more words. Noting new. Your whole argument is too Roo based. Did we get a Roo in McCartin last year. I doubt it?

Is there a Roo at 1 next year. From what I have read I doubt it.

You are like the down at heel gambler who tells everyone about his big score and is blind to all his losses. But keeps lusting for his next big score.

Possibly but even as a down at heel gambler I can read and understand a topic of conversation.....your still banging on about draft selections...

Your continued regurgitation of Herald Sun cliche ridden dribble knows no bounds.

Is there a Roo at No 1 next year?...who knows but if there was, using your logic, how would we go about drafting him with a later pick? Do tell.

[Bunk_Moreland]

We can pick up a Roo through FA though. No such thing the last time we had a No.1 (not 2014).

Sydney picked up Franklin through FA.

Essendon picked up Goddard through FA

you highlighted the obvious that you have more change getting a better player @ no.1 but that is in isolation without taking all the other factors into account, recruiters, FA,OOC, trading 105% SC allowance even possible PP.

Anyway how many flags did we win with Riewoldt and Goddard. Your method has been tried and failed for the Saints.

And I find it curious that you think a winning culture is unimportant and a team can just flick the switch and somehow just start winning.

Very soon we will be without Roo, Schneids, Fisher, and Joey. If we are still getting belted in a year or two, we will have developed a losing culture. Forget our history, it is about the current group and they need to win as many as possible.

To want the team to tank has been shown to be counterproductive especially when we can BUY a quality player who has already been in the system for a few years.

[Teflon]

We can pick up a Roo through FA though. No such thing the last time we had a No.1 (not 2014).

Sydney picked up Franklin through FA.

Essendon picked up Goddard through FA

you highlighted the obvious that you have more change getting a better player @ no.1 but that is in isolation without taking all the other factors into account, recruiters, FA,OOC, trading 105% SC allowance even possible PP.

Anyway how many flags did we win with Riewoldt and Goddard. Your method has been tried and failed for the Saints.

And I find it curious that you think a winning culture is unimportant and a team can just flick the switch and somehow just start winning.

Very soon we will be without Roo, Schneids, Fisher, and Joey. If we are still getting belted in a year or two, we will have developed a losing culture. Forget our history, it is about the current group and they need to win as many as possible.

To want the team to tank has been shown to be counterproductive especially when we can BUY a quality player who has already been in the system for a few years.

I deal in 1 fact - the ONLY benefit finishing low in the current system is an earlier choice - are you honestly disputing that?

Asking me does a Riewoldt or Goddard guarantee you a Premiership is honestly silly......I can answer with - would we ever have gotten near it without them?
Lyon used to say - 'its all about giving yourself an opportunity' -
Earlier choice in the draft selection gives you an opportunity - what happens after that is up to the club.

Do you believe if we were to win 2 less games this year and snare a top 3 pick we would suddenly become Melbourne, with a tanking culture then permeating the club causing our young players to give up and all FA's to decide they will never play for us? (admittedly this is a Plugger66 type scenario).

Do you really think 2 less wins this season would mean this?

[SaintPav]

We're top of the bottom rung of teams.

Can anyone realistically see us finishing higher than were we currently are on the ladder?

No risk of us finishing mid table somewhere like 9th which to many is the place of dead roads.

So worse case scenario is pick 5 in the draft.

So the baseline isn't finishing 9th v 18th. It's 14th v 18th and the draft results are reasonably random.

Does anyone really think that the idea of "lets keep losing until we're ready to climb the ladder" really work? I don't think so.

I do agree that we may need to keep manufacturing additional and lower picks but it is getting harder to do this each year. We'll have to give up something for that to happen and I'm not channeling what's his face either.

So you agree we will continue to need lower picks but would rather we give up something to get them?

I think I'll take my chances with the short term pain now.

Is a rise up the ladder guaranteed for anyone? no.
Can we have pick 1 and stuff it up? yes.
Should we get ourselves the highest choice available while we are losing games? IMHO yes as its the only benefit this current shytty system offers.Take it, choose wisely and cross everything that the draft gods serve up another Judd, Ball, Hodge year.....

Yes, and I'm not sure how, but an extra first round draft pick or early second round pick would be nice.

Easy to say game the system and finish last to secure the prize but it will obviously comes at a price, which is finishing after Carlton and they are currently a rabble.

Do you want us to be worse than a rabble?

Whats the price and how is that measured?

I dont agree.

We are bottom now for a reason - the club is selling 'road to 2018' again for a reason SO the short period (and I stress short period)we are down lets maximise our choices is what Im saying.

I dont subscribe to the 'ohhh we will become Carlton' thats utter nonsense - different club, different people and I am very confident our people in charge have a course and we wont be Carlton (who are held ransomed by wealth benefactors and internal bickering)

Agree an extra first rounder/early second would be lovely - IMHO we simply still dont have enough A Grade .....love another top 5.....or so..

We'll slide when Roo, Chips, Montagna et al go so it all might take care of itself.......whatever happens I just hope we get the earliest CHOICE we can while we are bottoming out.

I don't want us finishing last. Is that ok with you?

You should have some faith.

[saintspremiers]

I have spoken to many people this year and when footy comes up and I say I'm a Saints fan as one they all say "they're doing alright" "seem to be heading in the right direction" "have a future".

Just how much is this sort of positivity worth?

Remember, the people who decide which footy team their company should sponsor, could be some of these people.

It's the general vibe re our team at the moment from an outsiders POV, and for a team with only 3 wins out of 9 games is quite incredible.

If we can keep our form from the first half of the season into most of the second half, many good things will happen to our club - call it good karma, good luck, good management or a combo of those three things.