I'm torn...

[Teflon]

I dont care what we will do in November when you are in our position and list position right now is not smart.

Sure, it provide an all nice and warm feeling and 'youre not a loser' blah blah blah and certainly panders to the masses on here but in reality it isn't smart.

Does No 1 pick (we wont get that now) guarantee us a gun? No. All is does, in fact all the whole draft order process does, is guarantee choice order which becomes critical in the event a stand out option in the draft is identified.

I dont buy the whole 'should we finish near last this year no FA will come near us ' - thats hyperbole.
Stock pile a list full of talent that gets the entire competition talking and any half smart FA will do the sums and soon realise a young side on the up and come (plus $ talk lets face it).

Keep winning 6-9 games and stagnate where Carlton have been. Im interested in building a side that can compete for flags not mid table North/Essendon rubbish.
I totally agree with Fireys approach - short term pain, long term gain....stock up now with no compromised drafts.

Its not about 'hoping we lose' that's nonsense - its about building a platform to dominate and genuinely challenge using a current system that like it or not rewards failure.

I also dont accept we will become a Melbourne or Carlton - those clubs have in built issues not the least being being run by a powerful few who have to much to say (spoken by a mate of mine from the Old Carltonians who knows...). We stopped that when we stopped being Rods and Grants play thing.

Stock up? Stock up how? We get one pick for the round. We had multiple 1st round picks in previous years because we traded out experienced players. Do we need to get rid of more experienced players to take advantage of the uncompromised draft?
So this year assuming we can't get pick 1, we are talking the difference between getting pick 2 or 3 instead of 5 or 6. Effectively that means not wanting to win a game (losing) for the rest of the season - dress it up however it suits, that is what it is. Do we think it is really worth it? What about the cost of losing potential sponsors and membership? It could cost the club millions when it is already on the bones of its a*se.

We've built a talent base already. There is a plan the club has been working towards. We've got some good young talent in the door and that can be added to over the coming years. We don't need to go backwards or not improve to go forwards - that bit has been done, we've taken the pain. People have to trust the process the club has been working through.

We have a talent base but not enough genuine A-Grade midfielders. I see two KPP's and perhaps a talented ruckman coming through but I don't see any midfielders of superior game-winning quality. I like what's happening so far but I am really concerned that the talent is base is not enough to win a flag yet.

Bingo Minneapolis
It does get hard at times here ...

[Teflon]

I dont care what we will do in November when you are in our position and list position right now is not smart.

Sure, it provide an all nice and warm feeling and 'youre not a loser' blah blah blah and certainly panders to the masses on here but in reality it isn't smart.

Does No 1 pick (we wont get that now) guarantee us a gun? No. All is does, in fact all the whole draft order process does, is guarantee choice order which becomes critical in the event a stand out option in the draft is identified.

I dont buy the whole 'should we finish near last this year no FA will come near us ' - thats hyperbole.
Stock pile a list full of talent that gets the entire competition talking and any half smart FA will do the sums and soon realise a young side on the up and come (plus $ talk lets face it).

Keep winning 6-9 games and stagnate where Carlton have been. Im interested in building a side that can compete for flags not mid table North/Essendon rubbish.
I totally agree with Fireys approach - short term pain, long term gain....stock up now with no compromised drafts.

Its not about 'hoping we lose' that's nonsense - its about building a platform to dominate and genuinely challenge using a current system that like it or not rewards failure.

I also dont accept we will become a Melbourne or Carlton - those clubs have in built issues not the least being being run by a powerful few who have to much to say (spoken by a mate of mine from the Old Carltonians who knows...). We stopped that when we stopped being Rods and Grants play thing.

Teffers if we win 6 games we get a top 5 pick for sure. The Bont was 4th pick 2 years ago. When was the last clear number one that was the best player that year? Rooy in 2000. If we won 9 games that proves we have a side of great potential and top 7 pick may get us another good player to improve that. How anyone would be worried about November before round 9 really makes me wonder why they even bothered with this year. I think you need that remote control from Click that can fast forward to see what happens in 3 years time. Obviously the games to you don't matter until we build a side that is ready to go. Im going to go to the footy hoping to win every week and not care if we get a pick one or a pick 5. The silly thing is we will naturally finish in the bottom 5 this year without caring if we win or not. Imagine if we all went to the footy every week not caring. We would have no crowd noise at all. That would be even worse for the future. No one will want to go to games.

The final thing I will say is if you finish last, which we obviously wont, means you have only one pick, yes one, better that the winning FS side. They then have every pick better than your next pick. Get that pick wrong and you could be worse off that the winning GF side. Lonie and Sinclair have been good this year for the seniors and McCartin hasn't yet. Finishing last last year hasn't helped us yet this year but we have improved.

At least you stopped with the 'no FA will come to us....' sky is falling rubbish.
I can just as easily argue that finishing last in 2000 has helped us for a decade? do you know now if this years draft has the next Rooey already? (I too would like your crystal ball if so)
Nice and warm that you want to win every game but I am glad (and can guarantee) the club has a strategy in place that looks well beyond November already - thankfully your 'week to week must win at all costs' isnt involved in setting our long term strategic direction.
I go to games looking for what I will see in our next Flag side - Im not interested in beating up lowly Lions and getting all hysterical about it - Im after a Flag thats it and a side capable of competing at that level with the big boys to win it.
History is full of Saints fans just happy to 'compete' weekly - I dont agree and believe that we need to be great not just good. Youre obviously happy to just snag the odd win along the way and thats fine if that floats your boat every week.
The draft is the system by which all sides utilise to bring in talent - its not perfect but it does offer a small advantage to sides finishing low on the ladder (usually for a reason like us they arent great at the moment) and that is first choice.
My view is we need to capitalise on being lowly at the moment, maximise our choice options, pick wisely (goes without saying) and aim to be cellar dwellars for a short time not a long time.
Are there guarantees in picks? nup. Just guarantees in choice order ahead of the pack - I'll take it....in fact I'll take whatever advantage the system gives me, however small.
I agree what a sad way for things to end up if we all went to games each week not caring - but no one has said that in this thread so again this seems a largely emotive, irrelevant thing to say and entirely consistent with much of what you do say.

Carry on.

[saintsRrising]

Where have I said in my OP I want the Saints to lose BM?

Ok, all idignant at it being pointed out that you want the Saints to lose.

I don't want the Saints to win any more that 6 games this year and next. .

Ok case closed now.

You want the Saints to lose, and you want us to lose most of the time.

[Teflon]

We have a talent base but not enough genuine A-Grade midfielders. I see two KPP's and perhaps a talented ruckman coming through but I don't see any midfielders of superior game-winning quality. I like what's happening so far but I am really concerned that the talent is base is not enough to win a flag yet.

I agree 100% with you Minneapolis and that's exactly why I don't want the Saints to win any more that 6 games this year and next. Rooey, Joey, Fish, Dempster will all be retired by the end of 2016...Probably Gilbert as well. Mcartin replaces Rooey, Goddard replaces Fish no problem there. The conundrum is where are our young 'A' grade midfielders going to come from? If we finish too high this year and next on the back of the oldies, we won't have access to top 5 picks to replace the oldies. This may mean we will not get those 'A' grade midfielders which we desperately need if we are going to push for a flag post 2018. We may get lucky and recruit another Dal Santo with pick 13 but I would like our chances much more if we had pick 5 or better. Short term pain for long term gain....(s)aint that the truth.

Id certainly take my chances that 2 top 5 picks in the next 2 years has a better chance of turning out A Grade quality over plucking one at 48 or even another Dal Santo at 13.

I think drafting has come a long way.

The whole 'what a loser non supporter mentality' is emotional drivel.

I wonder if you asked Chris Pelchen which approach hed prefer what hed say?

' hey Chris hypo for you......knowing the state of our current list, our looming retirement of multiple champions and dearth of A Grade midfield talent.......would you rather us finish near bottom 2 years running for a guranteed shot at 2 top 5 picks OR would you rather us charge up the ladder and finish 9th now?'

Umm...

[Teflon]

Where have I said in my OP I want the Saints to lose BM?

Ok, all idignant at it being pointed out that you want the Saints to lose.

I don't want the Saints to win any more that 6 games this year and next. .

Ok case closed now.

You want the Saints to lose, and you want us to lose most of the time.

I dont think its as simple as 'do you want saints to lose' thats beside the point
What CW is saying, badly I believe, is that right now winning isnt that important in the longer term scheme of things aka compared to building a strong list.

I dont like losing but I can handle losing IF I know there is a strategy building something in the background - sometimes a loss can offer much more than a meaningless win in terms of what you learn about where a side is at.

In early 2000's with a young Riewoldt and co I watched us belted by 90 plus often but many times walked away knowing we'd have our day in the sun cause we could start to see the structure of a very good side. No surprises that side was build off the back of top draft picks and a champion at 1.

[saintsRrising]

In early 2000's with a young Riewoldt and co I watched us belted by 90 plus often but many times walked away knowing we'd have our day in the sun cause we could start to see the structure of a very good side. No surprises that side was build off the back of top draft picks and a champion at 1.

That is where you are wrong. That success was on the back on instilling a culture of winning.

Those have been on this forum for a while will know that I was not GT's biggest fan in his latter years, but GT, RB, BW, MK and others took the Saints by the scruff on the neck and instilled a culture of win at all costs. That is why they should always be remembered.

Yes the Saints have been strategic in rebuilding, but if you plan to stay on the bottom for too long a period then you are going to stay there. success becomes contagious and players asa group improve. Equallya losing culture is also contagious and under-achievement becomes the norm. Just look at the Dees. You cannot be a s*** team for years and years, and then just flick a switch and becomea champion team.

Tell Billings and Co that we will be staying on the bottom for a while, and just watch how they will be lured away by clubs that want to win and who are on the rise. Watch the fans leave, membership drop, debt rise.

Continue the trend of improvement and then we are a chance to land a good FA or two. Look likea basket case and they will not come near.

[saintsRrising]

. No surprises that side was build off the back of top draft picks and a champion at 1.

Nice fairy tale. But the team was built on more factors thtn just draft picks. The team was a blend of picks and:
* a core of very good players from the 97 tilt
* the Blight effect that helped us gain very good players like GTrain and Hamill
* some good mid-tier picks ups from other clubs like Voss, Powell etc

[stjay]

I think Chris Pelchen would say he wants to see the team give great effort week in week out whatever the win loss record.
This whole idea that this is a natural extension of the strategy is a total crock. We turned over our playing list for younger kids and performance suffered as a whole we all knew that was going to happen. Now that we've turned over the list, having re-generated 75% of it, these quality kids are starting to learn how to win we have supporters who want that to be held back in some way to continue to get earlier picks. Early picks were a function of turning over the list - Underperformance for early picks is not a key plank in a list management strategy, its a by-product. In fact continued underperformance probably means you haven't done a very good job in recruitment.

And yet still nobody has addressed the potential cost to the club for ongoing poor on-field performance. A club that based on the 2014 accounts, read in isolation, is effectively insolvent*. Has anyone who extolls this "let's not win too much" theory even considered that fact? How many more $+1mil losses can the club withstand?
We consistently bang on about wanting more earlier draft picks but don't fully comprehend the consequences that comes with that for the club.
*Obviously comes with big caveats.

They say "stock up on A-grade midfielders" but it makes no sense logically, morally or financially. How quickly we forget Lenny went at #11.
Successful clubs don't talk like this - losers do. You don't like the truth so what? Deal with it.

[bergholt]

Where have I said in my OP I want the Saints to lose BM?

Ok, all idignant at it being pointed out that you want the Saints to lose.

I don't want the Saints to win any more that 6 games this year and next. .

Ok case closed now.

You want the Saints to lose, and you want us to lose most of the time.

He must have been saying he wanted us to draw the rest, not lose. Win 6, draw 16, lose 0. Leaves us on the equivalent of 14 wins which should be almost enough for top 4.

Risky strategy though, we're going to need a pretty high quality bunch of players to draw 16 games.

[kosifantutti]

Last wooden spoon of Premiership teams
2014 Hawthorn 1965
2012 Sydney 1994
2011 Geelong 1958
2010 Collingwood 1999 Josh Fraser dropped before 2010 finals
2006 West Coast ----
2004 Port Adelaide ----
2003 Brisbane 1998 Des Headland played in 2002 Premiership
2000 Essendon 1933
1999 North Melbourne 1972
1998 Adelaide ---
1995 Carlton ----

1966 St Kilda 1955

Finishing last and developing a losing culture is obviously the key to success.

[magnifisaint]

I'm ripped!

[Bunk_Moreland]

Last wooden spoon of Premiership teams
2014 Hawthorn 1965
2012 Sydney 1994
2011 Geelong 1958
2010 Collingwood 1999 Josh Fraser dropped before 2010 finals
2006 West Coast ----
2004 Port Adelaide ----
2003 Brisbane 1998 Des Headland played in 2002 Premiership
2000 Essendon 1933
1999 North Melbourne 1972
1998 Adelaide ---
1995 Carlton ----

1966 St Kilda 1955

Finishing last and developing a losing culture is obviously the key to success.

Interesting and telling stats

[stjay]

Last wooden spoon of Premiership teams
2014 Hawthorn 1965
2012 Sydney 1994
2011 Geelong 1958
2010 Collingwood 1999 Josh Fraser dropped before 2010 finals
2006 West Coast ----
2004 Port Adelaide ----
2003 Brisbane 1998 Des Headland played in 2002 Premiership
2000 Essendon 1933
1999 North Melbourne 1972
1998 Adelaide ---
1995 Carlton ----

1966 St Kilda 1955

Finishing last and developing a losing culture is obviously the key to success.

Brilliant piece of work. Coffin nails to this theory.

[gringo]

We have a talent base but not enough genuine A-Grade midfielders. I see two KPP's and perhaps a talented ruckman coming through but I don't see any midfielders of superior game-winning quality. I like what's happening so far but I am really concerned that the talent is base is not enough to win a flag yet.

I agree 100% with you Minneapolis and that's exactly why I don't want the Saints to win any more that 6 games this year and next. Rooey, Joey, Fish, Dempster will all be retired by the end of 2016...Probably Gilbert as well. Mcartin replaces Rooey, Goddard replaces Fish no problem there. The conundrum is where are our young 'A' grade midfielders going to come from? If we finish too high this year and next on the back of the oldies, we won't have access to top 5 picks to replace the oldies. This may mean we will not get those 'A' grade midfielders which we desperately need if we are going to push for a flag post 2018. We may get lucky and recruit another Dal Santo with pick 13 but I would like our chances much more if we had pick 5 or better. Short term pain for long term gain....(s)aint that the truth.

So lets get this straight. We have 13 games left and we have won three. You want us to only win 3 of those thirteen.

So you want us to lose at least ten more matches in 2015.

Supporters are supposed to want their team to win, but by your own words will actively barrack for the Saints to lose 10 more matches.

In my opinion that is a disgraceful position for a supporter to hold.

Oh and a Dal Santo at thirteen

Acres # 17
Dunstan#18
McKenzie #22
Lonie# 37
Bruce # 48

any one of those could easily be as good as Dal Santo.

Fair Dinkum, fancy wanting your team to lose on some future possible scenario.

really a very poor attitude.

personally I support my team. We have thirteen more matches, I want them to win every single one, not barrack for them to lose because someone made up an arbitary number of matches to win.

I f$%#ing hate losing. Even though I know we are s*** a loss ruins my week. I want to beat everyone but I can handle it if we go down fighting. I get I have to accept some losses but we shouldn't start to hope for them.

[Bunk_Moreland]

We have a talent base but not enough genuine A-Grade midfielders. I see two KPP's and perhaps a talented ruckman coming through but I don't see any midfielders of superior game-winning quality. I like what's happening so far but I am really concerned that the talent is base is not enough to win a flag yet.

I agree 100% with you Minneapolis and that's exactly why I don't want the Saints to win any more that 6 games this year and next. Rooey, Joey, Fish, Dempster will all be retired by the end of 2016...Probably Gilbert as well. Mcartin replaces Rooey, Goddard replaces Fish no problem there. The conundrum is where are our young 'A' grade midfielders going to come from? If we finish too high this year and next on the back of the oldies, we won't have access to top 5 picks to replace the oldies. This may mean we will not get those 'A' grade midfielders which we desperately need if we are going to push for a flag post 2018. We may get lucky and recruit another Dal Santo with pick 13 but I would like our chances much more if we had pick 5 or better. Short term pain for long term gain....(s)aint that the truth.

So lets get this straight. We have 13 games left and we have won three. You want us to only win 3 of those thirteen.

So you want us to lose at least ten more matches in 2015.

Supporters are supposed to want their team to win, but by your own words will actively barrack for the Saints to lose 10 more matches.

In my opinion that is a disgraceful position for a supporter to hold.

Oh and a Dal Santo at thirteen

Acres # 17
Dunstan#18
McKenzie #22
Lonie# 37
Bruce # 48

any one of those could easily be as good as Dal Santo.

Fair Dinkum, fancy wanting your team to lose on some future possible scenario.

really a very poor attitude.

personally I support my team. We have thirteen more matches, I want them to win every single one, not barrack for them to lose because someone made up an arbitary number of matches to win.

I f$%#ing hate losing. Even though I know we are s*** a loss ruins my week. I want to beat everyone but I can handle it if we go down fighting. I get I have to accept some losses but we shouldn't start to hope for them.

Big difference between what you posted and what citywest did. He is hoping for 13 more losses.

I find this an appalling attitude for a supporter. I have watched games where we are the inferior team and have fought all the way to a loss. I cant fault endevour in those instances. I have also watched the team get flogged by145 points in the rain and can and will fault those losses.

But I will never hope for losses because of some fatuous possibility of future success.

[Sainternist]

Last wooden spoon of Premiership teams
2014 Hawthorn 1965
2012 Sydney 1994
2011 Geelong 1958
2010 Collingwood 1999 Josh Fraser dropped before 2010 finals
2006 West Coast ----
2004 Port Adelaide ----
2003 Brisbane 1998 Des Headland played in 2002 Premiership
2000 Essendon 1933
1999 North Melbourne 1972
1998 Adelaide ---
1995 Carlton ----

1966 St Kilda 1955

Finishing last and developing a losing culture is obviously the key to success.

Precisely. There is absolutely no logic in aiming to finish dead last.

Let this be sobering for the OP and others who agree with their ludicrous theory. They don't seem to realise that in finishing around 12-17th on the ladder still puts the team in contention for decent draft picks.

[plugger66]

Last wooden spoon of Premiership teams
2014 Hawthorn 1965
2012 Sydney 1994
2011 Geelong 1958
2010 Collingwood 1999 Josh Fraser dropped before 2010 finals
2006 West Coast ----
2004 Port Adelaide ----
2003 Brisbane 1998 Des Headland played in 2002 Premiership
2000 Essendon 1933
1999 North Melbourne 1972
1998 Adelaide ---
1995 Carlton ----

1966 St Kilda 1955

Finishing last and developing a losing culture is obviously the key to success.

Best stats ever to prove the OP is simply wrong. Anyone agreeing with him would want to come up with something good to justify hoping we will lose. And if people say they aren't hoping we will lose but not win more than 6 games are hoping we will lose once we win 6 games. If we don't win 6, which we probably wont, why bother even starting a thread on it.

[The Fireman]

Well I've been watching my beloved Saints since the Moorabbin days, 30 yr plus member and always hate to see us lose...but....the sense of loss isn't as great as it was "at the moment" I see where we are and where we could be with 2 more young champs. . Our previous successful seasons were due to bottoming out and some good picks. I'm getting on a bit now and want to see one last tilt at the flag..a good couple of picks after this season might just set us up.
Lot of talk on here about poor supporters..lack of knowledge etc.
As I have said earlier people can brand me that..but please do it to my face.

[plugger66]

Well I've been watching my beloved Saints since the Moorabbin days, 30 yr plus member and always hate to see us lose...but....the sense of loss isn't as great as it was "at the moment" I see where we are and where we could be with 2 more young champs. . Our previous successful seasons were due to bottoming out and some good picks. I'm getting on a bit now and want to see one last tilt at the flag..a good couple of picks after this season might just set us up.
Lot of talk on here about poor supporters..lack of knowledge etc.
As I have said earlier people can brand me that..but please do it to my face.

Its only one good pick and it will be a good pick whether we win 4 games or 6 games. Our list isn't winning 8 or 9 games this year. And how the hell can you do anything to your face? Give me your address please.

By the way whay what did you think of Kosi factual stats?

[The Fireman]

Well I've been watching my beloved Saints since the Moorabbin days, 30 yr plus member and always hate to see us lose...but....the sense of loss isn't as great as it was "at the moment" I see where we are and where we could be with 2 more young champs. . Our previous successful seasons were due to bottoming out and some good picks. I'm getting on a bit now and want to see one last tilt at the flag..a good couple of picks after this season might just set us up.
Lot of talk on here about poor supporters..lack of knowledge etc.
As I have said earlier people can brand me that..but please do it to my face.

Its only one good pick and it will be a good pick whether we win 4 games or 6 games. Our list isn't winning 8 or 9 games this year. And how the hell can you do anything to your face? Give me your address please.

By the way whay what did you think of Kosi factual stats?

I'll private message my address to you.

The factual stats ? not much.. just saw first hand what bottoming out can do. the higher the pick the more power to negotiate

so you have thoughts of saying something to my face ? good

[plugger66]

Well I've been watching my beloved Saints since the Moorabbin days, 30 yr plus member and always hate to see us lose...but....the sense of loss isn't as great as it was "at the moment" I see where we are and where we could be with 2 more young champs. . Our previous successful seasons were due to bottoming out and some good picks. I'm getting on a bit now and want to see one last tilt at the flag..a good couple of picks after this season might just set us up.
Lot of talk on here about poor supporters..lack of knowledge etc.
As I have said earlier people can brand me that..but please do it to my face.

Its only one good pick and it will be a good pick whether we win 4 games or 6 games. Our list isn't winning 8 or 9 games this year. And how the hell can you do anything to your face? Give me your address please.

By the way whay what did you think of Kosi factual stats?

I'll private message my address to you.

The factual stats ? not much.. just saw first hand what bottoming out can do. the higher the pick the more power to negotiate

so you have thoughts of saying something to my face ? good

You know what I will say to your face. I will say I disagree with you but at least you seem passionate. I totally disagree with hoping we lose so we get good picks. I will also ask are you really a firey and do you John Harkness? Or are you John. He is a sainter.

[The Fireman]

Well I've been watching my beloved Saints since the Moorabbin days, 30 yr plus member and always hate to see us lose...but....the sense of loss isn't as great as it was "at the moment" I see where we are and where we could be with 2 more young champs. . Our previous successful seasons were due to bottoming out and some good picks. I'm getting on a bit now and want to see one last tilt at the flag..a good couple of picks after this season might just set us up.
Lot of talk on here about poor supporters..lack of knowledge etc.
As I have said earlier people can brand me that..but please do it to my face.

Its only one good pick and it will be a good pick whether we win 4 games or 6 games. Our list isn't winning 8 or 9 games this year. And how the hell can you do anything to your face? Give me your address please.

By the way whay what did you think of Kosi factual stats?

I'll private message my address to you.

The factual stats ? not much.. just saw first hand what bottoming out can do. the higher the pick the more power to negotiate

so you have thoughts of saying something to my face ? good

You know what I will say to your face. I will say I disagree with you but at least you seem passionate. I totally disagree with hoping we lose so we get good picks. I will also ask are you really a firey and do you John Harkness? Or are you John. He is a sainter.

yes I am. I don't know John Harkness ..

[saintsRrising]

. Our previous successful seasons were due to bottoming out and some good picks..

Any facts to back this up theory that young draft picks were the only basis of our previous successful seasons?

66 = no
97 = no

2009/2010....and Roo was taken way, way back in 2000! = no

Personally I reckon that when Lyon arrived the team had started to decline and that he turned the fortunes around with an innovative game plan, good coaching in getting the players to work as a TEAM better and harder than they ever had before, plus some handy pick up of recycled players from other clubs to complement the list that was at the club which included some low draft picks taken many years before. Stating that these GF's were due to just bottoming out almost a decade earlier is naive IMO. Low draft picks were just part of it, and by no means a dominant part.


If and when GWS is successful, that will be the first and only time that low draft picks has been the dominant reason for success.
Suns have had a truckload of very low picks (and way more than we could ever hope to get by collecting spoon after spoon) and look to be going nowhere at present.

[The Fireman]

. Our previous successful seasons were due to bottoming out and some good picks..

Any facts to back this up theory that young draft picks were the only basis of our previous successful seasons?

66 = no
97 = no

2009/2010....and Roo was taken way, way back in 2000! = no

Personally I reckon that when Lyon arrived the team had started to decline and that he turned the fortunes around with an innovative game plan, good coaching in getting the players to work as a TEAM better and harder than they ever had before, plus some handy pick up of recycled players from other clubs to complement the list that was at the club which included some low draft picks taken many years before. Stating that these GF's were due to just bottoming out almost a decade earlier is naive IMO. Low draft picks were just part of it, and by no means a dominant part.


If and when GWS is successful, that will be the first and only time that low draft picks has been the dominant reason for success.
Suns have had a truckload of very low picks (and way more than we could ever hope to get by collecting spoon after spoon) and look to be going no where at present.

Already we have picked some potential game winners lets get some more...rather have top picks that not atm. The era between 2000 and 2010 was largely due in my opinion to good coaching and good early picks. Looking at what we have now wouldn't you like to see at least another top pick ? so that next year when Paddy hits his straps he will have even more talent around him. I want us to motor on next year and beyond.

[saintsRrising]

Looking at what we have now wouldn't you like to see at least another top pick ? so that next year when Paddy hits his straps he will have even more talent around him. I want us to motor on next year and beyond.

Everyone would love more top picks. BUT you just do not get them for nothing. You get them for being bad, for going backwards for stuffing up other things including your other selections.

What I want is for us to be doing all the other things very well, as that is the only way to achieve success.

I want to keep picking up players like Bruce and Sinclair.

I want to see a good gameplan and structure rolled ou (and I am already seeing that).

I want to see a coach bonding with his players

I want to see the playing group show esprit de corps

What I don't want to see is a rabble thinking that the only way forward is through playing bad to win the draft lottery. Speaking of big lottery winners....most end up worse off!

How do you expect our current players to develop and grow if all they are being shown is how to lose?