I'm torn...

[citywest]

Fyffe...Round 2, Pick #20 2009 National Draft


Good drafting is all about gettting many of your picks correct....and nothing at all about relying on a No1 pick to later win your Grand Finals.
Our drafting has been good the last two years because most of our picks by and large have been good ones, including some excellent rookie picks.

The Blues sold the farm to get Judd, and all that gained them was years of being a middling club.

Success comes from instilling the right culture and self belief. Coaching to deliberately lose end badlys. Just look at how long Melbourne stayed in the wilderness.

Smashed out of the park sR.

So true. And Judd was a #3 pick not a number one.

How have we gone with McKenzie, Lonie, and Bruce just to name a few no first round dps?

Cant understand how anyone would want to see the Saints lose. Some very strange supporters.

You guys hoping to see the Saints as losers dont have to worry though, plenty of losses around the corner. Check out our last 6 matches.

You guys will be over the moon.

Where have I said in my OP I want the Saints to lose BM?

[bergholt]

The guy is just putting out there a view which is understandable but it is a loser's mentality and the moral hazard that comes with rewarding teams for poor performance.

It's not moral hazard if it doesn't work.

No team has ever tanked to win a flag and the whole AFL industry has decided that it therefore doesn't work. So why is "tanking" even a concern?

[bergholt]

I can't be bothered checking the draft history on who we missed out on in the 2002 Draft. Is it a stretch to say that Wulf's poster may have cost us at least 2 if not 3 premierships? It's probably drawing a long bow but it's very interesting just looking back.

Drawing a very long bow. It was Round 5 against Sydney to take us to 1.5 wins. We won 4 more games from the year from there! If you were calling for us to lose in round 5 of a year where we didn't even go on to finish bottom then I don't know what to say.

We took BJ at pick one that year. Next nine were:

2: Daniel Wells (224 games)
3: Jared Brennan (173 games)
4: Tim Walsh (1 game)
5: Jarrad McVeigh (251 games)
6: Steven Salopek (121 games)
7: Andrew Mackie (222 games)
8: Luke Brennan (28 games)
9: Hamish McIntosh (126 games)
10: Jason Laycock (58 games)

We got lucky that Carlton got caught for their decades of cheating so missed out on pick 1 and their priority pick. That got us the best player from that draft (except Jobe Watson, I guess).

With pick 2 as well we might have got Wells and he would have been pretty handy in 09/10. (Though in 09 he was injured and only played 7 games.)

Or we might have decided we needed a tall and took Walsh or Laycock. Or a different small, maybe Salopek because he was a Saints supporter, or Brennan.

And we might have generated a losing culture by tanking and Rooey would have gone to Collingwood in 2006. Who knows?

[plugger66]

I thought MODS said they were satisfied Citywest IS a Saints member and they would issue warnings to anybody suggesting otherwise.
I don't agree with much of what he says either, but it is almost becoming a blood-sport on here to jump down his throat and accuse him of trolling before he has even finished typing a post.
As many have said in this thread I prefer winning and let the draft picks take care of themselves, but the possibility of missing out on the next Judd or Fyfe by winning one extra game is debatable.

I am so grateful that you posted this whiskers3614. Thirteen years, if my memory serves me correct, that is exactly what happened to St Kilda. I can't remember who we were playing but I remember the player involved like it was yesterday. Wulf hit the post in the dying stages to draw the match. That took us 5 wins and a draw for the year and we missed out on a Priority Pick. I remember clearly at the time saying I hope we win at least another 3 games for that season to make it worthwhile. You guessed it, we finished on 5 and a half wins and no PP.

I can't be bothered checking the draft history on who we missed out on in the 2002 Draft. Is it a stretch to say that Wulf's poster may have cost us at least 2 if not 3 premierships? It's probably drawing a long bow but it's very interesting just looking back.

Such a silly post. Firstly we basically don't have priority picks anymore and secondly He said the next Judd or Fyffe. Neither who were a top 2 pick.

[saynta]

I thought MODS said they were satisfied Citywest IS a Saints member and they would issue warnings to anybody suggesting otherwise.
I don't agree with much of what he says either, but it is almost becoming a blood-sport on here to jump down his throat and accuse him of trolling before he has even finished typing a post.
As many have said in this thread I prefer winning and let the draft picks take care of themselves, but the possibility of missing out on the next Judd or Fyfe by winning one extra game is debatable.

I am so grateful that you posted this whiskers3614. Thirteen years, if my memory serves me correct, that is exactly what happened to St Kilda. I can't remember who we were playing but I remember the player involved like it was yesterday. Wulf hit the post in the dying stages to draw the match. That took us 5 wins and a draw for the year and we missed out on a Priority Pick. I remember clearly at the time saying I hope we win at least another 3 games for that season to make it worthwhile. You guessed it, we finished on 5 and a half wins and no PP.

I can't be bothered checking the draft history on who we missed out on in the 2002 Draft. Is it a stretch to say that Wulf's poster may have cost us at least 2 if not 3 premierships? It's probably drawing a long bow but it's very interesting just looking back.

Swans and Wells as every supporter knows.

[Sainternist]

I want top picks aswell...we aint going to win the flag so let's gear up for a real tilt...I'm getting too old to wait for a flag by being mid stream.

Citywest has a point.

Too old? You can say that again. Good luck in coping with senility. The first signs seemed to have kicked in, old boy.

[stjay]

The guy is just putting out there a view which is understandable but it is a loser's mentality and the moral hazard that comes with rewarding teams for poor performance.

It's not moral hazard if it doesn't work.

No team has ever tanked to win a flag and the whole AFL industry has decided that it therefore doesn't work. So why is "tanking" even a concern?

Tanking is the extreme of the situation and the OP didn't mention that. However if that is the manifestation of the mentality we are talking about then it has happened before. And I am sure the club did it for a percieved long term gain - whether it worked or not is irrelevant, it occured.
That is moral hazard.

[gringo]

I want top picks aswell...we aint going to win the flag so let's gear up for a real tilt...I'm getting too old to wait for a flag by being mid stream.

Citywest has a point.

Same here Firey

Look I know we are building something but reality is to genuinely be a flag chance against sides who are simply loaded with top kids over the next few seasons we need to bring in as close to A grade kids as possible. The best way to do this while rebuilding is to maximise your draft options.

I truly see absolutely no benefit in following Richmond and finishing 9-11 each year pretending your gonna magically over haul Hawks and Swans (who get Academy gifts)

I am watching games now purely to see who is/isnt going to be in our next 22 for a flag - THATS IT. After being so close and being feared as a great side (like Dockers are starting to become.....must have a dud coach), I am after that again....not to be a good mid table side.

In short we are and will see patches of talent but my view is if youre bottoming out......do it properly and get great kids in.....I think No1 pick is already gone to Blues...

City West post makes some sense

Do you guys understand FA and secondly if we are winning with this side how good will we be with some more top 5 picks. The other option is to be really poor and get no interest from a FA and then get a top 2 pick but because we are really poor that top 2 pick just makes us really ordinary.

It makes kids want to stay to be part of the future too having a side playing competitively. Puts pressure on the coach so destabilises, makes us less attractive to sponsors, less members and could contribute to our ability to attract the FAs too as you said.

[The Fireman]

I want top picks aswell...we aint going to win the flag so let's gear up for a real tilt...I'm getting too old to wait for a flag by being mid stream.

Citywest has a point.

Same here Firey

Look I know we are building something but reality is to genuinely be a flag chance against sides who are simply loaded with top kids over the next few seasons we need to bring in as close to A grade kids as possible. The best way to do this while rebuilding is to maximise your draft options.

I truly see absolutely no benefit in following Richmond and finishing 9-11 each year pretending your gonna magically over haul Hawks and Swans (who get Academy gifts)

I am watching games now purely to see who is/isnt going to be in our next 22 for a flag - THATS IT. After being so close and being feared as a great side (like Dockers are starting to become.....must have a dud coach), I am after that again....not to be a good mid table side.

In short we are and will see patches of talent but my view is if youre bottoming out......do it properly and get great kids in.....I think No1 pick is already gone to Blues...

City West post makes some sense

Do you guys understand FA and secondly if we are winning with this side how good will we be with some more top 5 picks. The other option is to be really poor and get no interest from a FA and then get a top 2 pick but because we are really poor that top 2 pick just makes us really ordinary.

It makes kids want to stay to be part of the future too having a side playing competitively. Puts pressure on the coach so destabilises, makes us less attractive to sponsors, less members and could contribute to our ability to attract the FAs too as you said.

A flag should be able to sort that all out. Won't win one if we go the way of Richmond etc....short term pain..long term gain and now is the time to do it...our old champs will be gone soon and the youngens will grow together as a team with a healthy injection of top picks.

[plugger66]

I want top picks aswell...we aint going to win the flag so let's gear up for a real tilt...I'm getting too old to wait for a flag by being mid stream.

Citywest has a point.

Same here Firey

Look I know we are building something but reality is to genuinely be a flag chance against sides who are simply loaded with top kids over the next few seasons we need to bring in as close to A grade kids as possible. The best way to do this while rebuilding is to maximise your draft options.

I truly see absolutely no benefit in following Richmond and finishing 9-11 each year pretending your gonna magically over haul Hawks and Swans (who get Academy gifts)

I am watching games now purely to see who is/isnt going to be in our next 22 for a flag - THATS IT. After being so close and being feared as a great side (like Dockers are starting to become.....must have a dud coach), I am after that again....not to be a good mid table side.

In short we are and will see patches of talent but my view is if youre bottoming out......do it properly and get great kids in.....I think No1 pick is already gone to Blues...

City West post makes some sense

Do you guys understand FA and secondly if we are winning with this side how good will we be with some more top 5 picks. The other option is to be really poor and get no interest from a FA and then get a top 2 pick but because we are really poor that top 2 pick just makes us really ordinary.

It makes kids want to stay to be part of the future too having a side playing competitively. Puts pressure on the coach so destabilises, makes us less attractive to sponsors, less members and could contribute to our ability to attract the FAs too as you said.

A flag should be able to sort that all out. Won't win one if we go the way of Richmond etc....short term pain..long term gain and now is the time to do it...our old champs will be gone soon and the youngens will grow together as a team with a healthy injection of top picks.

We don't have to basically hope we lose to get top picks. It will happen anyway. If we hoped we lose and win one game for the years which obviously cant be done now then why would a FA want to come to us. We need to show FA we are on the way up, not stagnating in last position. We are most likely still going to get a top 5 pick. I reckon that could get us a very good player. Im not going to go to a game and say who cares if we win. I want us to win every week. I want us to best the Hawks this week. I don't care about what we will do in November.

[samuraisaint]

we don't have to hope we lose because when we start playing the top 8 or 9 teams from Hawthorn down to Richmond, we are going to lose anyway. we don't need to hope to lose because just when we start to improve our champs like Roo, Joey, Chips, etc are going to retire meaning another season in the bottom three or four and another high draft pick.
But we are getting a side together who are surprising a lot of people, me included. you don't need to be a basket case to recruit wisely, and we are a bottom two side anyway. I want to be able to watch us win. I don't want to turn into Richmond either, but I certainly don't want to become another Melbourne. Hell, no.

[Teflon]

I dont care what we will do in November when you are in our position and list position right now is not smart.

Sure, it provide an all nice and warm feeling and 'youre not a loser' blah blah blah and certainly panders to the masses on here but in reality it isn't smart.

Does No 1 pick (we wont get that now) guarantee us a gun? No. All is does, in fact all the whole draft order process does, is guarantee choice order which becomes critical in the event a stand out option in the draft is identified.

I dont buy the whole 'should we finish near last this year no FA will come near us ' - thats hyperbole.
Stock pile a list full of talent that gets the entire competition talking and any half smart FA will do the sums and soon realise a young side on the up and come (plus $ talk lets face it).

Keep winning 6-9 games and stagnate where Carlton have been. Im interested in building a side that can compete for flags not mid table North/Essendon rubbish.
I totally agree with Fireys approach - short term pain, long term gain....stock up now with no compromised drafts.

Its not about 'hoping we lose' that's nonsense - its about building a platform to dominate and genuinely challenge using a current system that like it or not rewards failure.

I also dont accept we will become a Melbourne or Carlton - those clubs have in built issues not the least being being run by a powerful few who have to much to say (spoken by a mate of mine from the Old Carltonians who knows...). We stopped that when we stopped being Rods and Grants play thing.

[bergholt]

It's not moral hazard if it doesn't work.

No team has ever tanked to win a flag and the whole AFL industry has decided that it therefore doesn't work. So why is "tanking" even a concern?

Tanking is the extreme of the situation and the OP didn't mention that. However if that is the manifestation of the mentality we are talking about then it has happened before. And I am sure the club did it for a percieved long term gain - whether it worked or not is irrelevant, it occured.
That is moral hazard.

No, I still disagree with that. If teams want to make poor decisions such as losing games on purpose for a perceived gain which doesn't actually exist, then there's nothing the system can or should do about it. Tanking isn't cheating because it doesn't work. I don't understand why anyone cares about it as an issue.

[The Fireman]

I want top picks aswell...we aint going to win the flag so let's gear up for a real tilt...I'm getting too old to wait for a flag by being mid stream.

Citywest has a point.

Same here Firey

Look I know we are building something but reality is to genuinely be a flag chance against sides who are simply loaded with top kids over the next few seasons we need to bring in as close to A grade kids as possible. The best way to do this while rebuilding is to maximise your draft options.

I truly see absolutely no benefit in following Richmond and finishing 9-11 each year pretending your gonna magically over haul Hawks and Swans (who get Academy gifts)

I am watching games now purely to see who is/isnt going to be in our next 22 for a flag - THATS IT. After being so close and being feared as a great side (like Dockers are starting to become.....must have a dud coach), I am after that again....not to be a good mid table side.

In short we are and will see patches of talent but my view is if youre bottoming out......do it properly and get great kids in.....I think No1 pick is already gone to Blues...

City West post makes some sense

Do you guys understand FA and secondly if we are winning with this side how good will we be with some more top 5 picks. The other option is to be really poor and get no interest from a FA and then get a top 2 pick but because we are really poor that top 2 pick just makes us really ordinary.

It makes kids want to stay to be part of the future too having a side playing competitively. Puts pressure on the coach so destabilises, makes us less attractive to sponsors, less members and could contribute to our ability to attract the FAs too as you said.

A flag should be able to sort that all out. Won't win one if we go the way of Richmond etc....short term pain..long term gain and now is the time to do it...our old champs will be gone soon and the youngens will grow together as a team with a healthy injection of top picks.

We don't have to basically hope we lose to get top picks. It will happen anyway. If we hoped we lose and win one game for the years which obviously cant be done now then why would a FA want to come to us. We need to show FA we are on the way up, not stagnating in last position. We are most likely still going to get a top 5 pick. I reckon that could get us a very good player. Im not going to go to a game and say who cares if we win. I want us to win every week. I want us to best the Hawks this week. I don't care about what we will do in November.

I wonder sometimes why you prattle on...you must know what I mean or at least what I am hoping for. FA have managers and they aren't all dills, they and their clients will see potential even if a team doesn't have the foot on the pedal. Actually I wonder what your modus operandi is on here at times. ??

[skeptic]

I can't be bothered checking the draft history on who we missed out on in the 2002 Draft. Is it a stretch to say that Wulf's poster may have cost us at least 2 if not 3 premierships? It's probably drawing a long bow but it's very interesting just looking back.

Drawing a very long bow. It was Round 5 against Sydney to take us to 1.5 wins. We won 4 more games from the year from there! If you were calling for us to lose in round 5 of a year where we didn't even go on to finish bottom then I don't know what to say.

We took BJ at pick one that year. Next nine were:

2: Daniel Wells (224 games)
3: Jared Brennan (173 games)
4: Tim Walsh (1 game)
5: Jarrad McVeigh (251 games)
6: Steven Salopek (121 games)
7: Andrew Mackie (222 games)
8: Luke Brennan (28 games)
9: Hamish McIntosh (126 games)
10: Jason Laycock (58 games)

We got lucky that Carlton got caught for their decades of cheating so missed out on pick 1 and their priority pick. That got us the best player from that draft (except Jobe Watson, I guess).

With pick 2 as well we might have got Wells and he would have been pretty handy in 09/10. (Though in 09 he was injured and only played 7 games.)

Or we might have decided we needed a tall and took Walsh or Laycock. Or a different small, maybe Salopek because he was a Saints supporter, or Brennan.

And we might have generated a losing culture by tanking and Rooey would have gone to Collingwood in 2006. Who knows?

Really good post

[stjay]

I dont care what we will do in November when you are in our position and list position right now is not smart.

Sure, it provide an all nice and warm feeling and 'youre not a loser' blah blah blah and certainly panders to the masses on here but in reality it isn't smart.

Does No 1 pick (we wont get that now) guarantee us a gun? No. All is does, in fact all the whole draft order process does, is guarantee choice order which becomes critical in the event a stand out option in the draft is identified.

I dont buy the whole 'should we finish near last this year no FA will come near us ' - thats hyperbole.
Stock pile a list full of talent that gets the entire competition talking and any half smart FA will do the sums and soon realise a young side on the up and come (plus $ talk lets face it).

Keep winning 6-9 games and stagnate where Carlton have been. Im interested in building a side that can compete for flags not mid table North/Essendon rubbish.
I totally agree with Fireys approach - short term pain, long term gain....stock up now with no compromised drafts.

Its not about 'hoping we lose' that's nonsense - its about building a platform to dominate and genuinely challenge using a current system that like it or not rewards failure.

I also dont accept we will become a Melbourne or Carlton - those clubs have in built issues not the least being being run by a powerful few who have to much to say (spoken by a mate of mine from the Old Carltonians who knows...). We stopped that when we stopped being Rods and Grants play thing.

Stock up? Stock up how? We get one pick for the round. We had multiple 1st round picks in previous years because we traded out experienced players. Do we need to get rid of more experienced players to take advantage of the uncompromised draft?
So this year assuming we can't get pick 1, we are talking the difference between getting pick 2 or 3 instead of 5 or 6. Effectively that means not wanting to win a game (losing) for the rest of the season - dress it up however it suits, that is what it is. Do we think it is really worth it? What about the cost of losing potential sponsors and membership? It could cost the club millions when it is already on the bones of its a*se.

We've built a talent base already. There is a plan the club has been working towards. We've got some good young talent in the door and that can be added to over the coming years. We don't need to go backwards or not improve to go forwards - that bit has been done, we've taken the pain. People have to trust the process the club has been working through.

[saintsRrising]

. We stopped that when we stopped being Rods and Grants play thing.

Rubbish. Wastaway and his cronies were the biggest disaster to hit the Saints apart from our inept recruiting department.
While Rod and GT certainly had their issues at least thaey propelled upwards.

Wastaway was just a cancer that ate away at the club. Arrogont tosser that was too good to mix with the average fan except when he was chasing votes for FF. "Right", no at all. "Wrong" would have been much more appropriate.

I agree that out most recent Board is going ok, but anyone that thinks there is any democracy in who gets onto our Board is delusional. However at least it is not just a case of who has the most money gets the most say as it has been at the Blues for so long.

[minneapolis]

I dont care what we will do in November when you are in our position and list position right now is not smart.

Sure, it provide an all nice and warm feeling and 'youre not a loser' blah blah blah and certainly panders to the masses on here but in reality it isn't smart.

Does No 1 pick (we wont get that now) guarantee us a gun? No. All is does, in fact all the whole draft order process does, is guarantee choice order which becomes critical in the event a stand out option in the draft is identified.

I dont buy the whole 'should we finish near last this year no FA will come near us ' - thats hyperbole.
Stock pile a list full of talent that gets the entire competition talking and any half smart FA will do the sums and soon realise a young side on the up and come (plus $ talk lets face it).

Keep winning 6-9 games and stagnate where Carlton have been. Im interested in building a side that can compete for flags not mid table North/Essendon rubbish.
I totally agree with Fireys approach - short term pain, long term gain....stock up now with no compromised drafts.

Its not about 'hoping we lose' that's nonsense - its about building a platform to dominate and genuinely challenge using a current system that like it or not rewards failure.

I also dont accept we will become a Melbourne or Carlton - those clubs have in built issues not the least being being run by a powerful few who have to much to say (spoken by a mate of mine from the Old Carltonians who knows...). We stopped that when we stopped being Rods and Grants play thing.

Stock up? Stock up how? We get one pick for the round. We had multiple 1st round picks in previous years because we traded out experienced players. Do we need to get rid of more experienced players to take advantage of the uncompromised draft?
So this year assuming we can't get pick 1, we are talking the difference between getting pick 2 or 3 instead of 5 or 6. Effectively that means not wanting to win a game (losing) for the rest of the season - dress it up however it suits, that is what it is. Do we think it is really worth it? What about the cost of losing potential sponsors and membership? It could cost the club millions when it is already on the bones of its a*se.

We've built a talent base already. There is a plan the club has been working towards. We've got some good young talent in the door and that can be added to over the coming years. We don't need to go backwards or not improve to go forwards - that bit has been done, we've taken the pain. People have to trust the process the club has been working through.

We have a talent base but not enough genuine A-Grade midfielders. I see two KPP's and perhaps a talented ruckman coming through but I don't see any midfielders of superior game-winning quality. I like what's happening so far but I am really concerned that the talent is base is not enough to win a flag yet.

[plugger66]

I want top picks aswell...we aint going to win the flag so let's gear up for a real tilt...I'm getting too old to wait for a flag by being mid stream.

Citywest has a point.

Same here Firey

Look I know we are building something but reality is to genuinely be a flag chance against sides who are simply loaded with top kids over the next few seasons we need to bring in as close to A grade kids as possible. The best way to do this while rebuilding is to maximise your draft options.

I truly see absolutely no benefit in following Richmond and finishing 9-11 each year pretending your gonna magically over haul Hawks and Swans (who get Academy gifts)

I am watching games now purely to see who is/isnt going to be in our next 22 for a flag - THATS IT. After being so close and being feared as a great side (like Dockers are starting to become.....must have a dud coach), I am after that again....not to be a good mid table side.

In short we are and will see patches of talent but my view is if youre bottoming out......do it properly and get great kids in.....I think No1 pick is already gone to Blues...

City West post makes some sense

Do you guys understand FA and secondly if we are winning with this side how good will we be with some more top 5 picks. The other option is to be really poor and get no interest from a FA and then get a top 2 pick but because we are really poor that top 2 pick just makes us really ordinary.

It makes kids want to stay to be part of the future too having a side playing competitively. Puts pressure on the coach so destabilises, makes us less attractive to sponsors, less members and could contribute to our ability to attract the FAs too as you said.

A flag should be able to sort that all out. Won't win one if we go the way of Richmond etc....short term pain..long term gain and now is the time to do it...our old champs will be gone soon and the youngens will grow together as a team with a healthy injection of top picks.

We don't have to basically hope we lose to get top picks. It will happen anyway. If we hoped we lose and win one game for the years which obviously cant be done now then why would a FA want to come to us. We need to show FA we are on the way up, not stagnating in last position. We are most likely still going to get a top 5 pick. I reckon that could get us a very good player. Im not going to go to a game and say who cares if we win. I want us to win every week. I want us to best the Hawks this week. I don't care about what we will do in November.

I wonder sometimes why you prattle on...you must know what I mean or at least what I am hoping for. FA have managers and they aren't all dills, they and their clients will see potential even if a team doesn't have the foot on the pedal. Actually I wonder what your modus operandi is on here at times. ??

You don't quite get footy but that's ok. We need all types on here. Yep managers and players understand footy but if you show no improvement then there is no potential. Not caring if you own side wins shows how little people have looked at the last 20 years of footy and its even less important to lose now that there is basically no PP. Any team who doesn't have their foot to pedal has the wrong people in charge. Melbourne got charged with tanking, well sort of, and look how that has helped. They didn't have their foot to the pedal and they haven't shown great improvement. Hope we keep winning and cop the pick we cop. To hope otherwise suggests a complete lack of footy knowledge and history.

My MO is obvious here. I want us to win every game. I hope that is ok? Probably not though because you don't care if we win. Each to their own.

[plugger66]

I dont care what we will do in November when you are in our position and list position right now is not smart.

Sure, it provide an all nice and warm feeling and 'youre not a loser' blah blah blah and certainly panders to the masses on here but in reality it isn't smart.

Does No 1 pick (we wont get that now) guarantee us a gun? No. All is does, in fact all the whole draft order process does, is guarantee choice order which becomes critical in the event a stand out option in the draft is identified.

I dont buy the whole 'should we finish near last this year no FA will come near us ' - thats hyperbole.
Stock pile a list full of talent that gets the entire competition talking and any half smart FA will do the sums and soon realise a young side on the up and come (plus $ talk lets face it).

Keep winning 6-9 games and stagnate where Carlton have been. Im interested in building a side that can compete for flags not mid table North/Essendon rubbish.
I totally agree with Fireys approach - short term pain, long term gain....stock up now with no compromised drafts.

Its not about 'hoping we lose' that's nonsense - its about building a platform to dominate and genuinely challenge using a current system that like it or not rewards failure.

I also dont accept we will become a Melbourne or Carlton - those clubs have in built issues not the least being being run by a powerful few who have to much to say (spoken by a mate of mine from the Old Carltonians who knows...). We stopped that when we stopped being Rods and Grants play thing.

Teffers if we win 6 games we get a top 5 pick for sure. The Bont was 4th pick 2 years ago. When was the last clear number one that was the best player that year? Rooy in 2000. If we won 9 games that proves we have a side of great potential and top 7 pick may get us another good player to improve that. How anyone would be worried about November before round 9 really makes me wonder why they even bothered with this year. I think you need that remote control from Click that can fast forward to see what happens in 3 years time. Obviously the games to you don't matter until we build a side that is ready to go. Im going to go to the footy hoping to win every week and not care if we get a pick one or a pick 5. The silly thing is we will naturally finish in the bottom 5 this year without caring if we win or not. Imagine if we all went to the footy every week not caring. We would have no crowd noise at all. That would be even worse for the future. No one will want to go to games.

The final thing I will say is if you finish last, which we obviously wont, means you have only one pick, yes one, better that the winning FS side. They then have every pick better than your next pick. Get that pick wrong and you could be worse off that the winning GF side. Lonie and Sinclair have been good this year for the seniors and McCartin hasn't yet. Finishing last last year hasn't helped us yet this year but we have improved.

[gringo]

I agree with Plugger, we go absolutely fantastically for the rest of the season we still are going to be bottom 4 IMO. We will probably win 3 more games at best. That still gives us a great pick who is likely a very high level player. Luckily the Blues need KPFs and the GCS need nothing but will probably go best available. They would take one of those KPs too I think as this a good draft for the talls. Melbourne will probably be down with us too so could get a pick ahead of us. They are probably needing tall back men so that would still probably get us the best mid in the draft if the order falls that way. This is a pretty average draft outside the top 10 or so players by the look of it.

If we draft like last year we will go well, Lonie, Mc Kenzie, Sinclair all look like potential stars. We then have Paddy and Hugh to go yet. The year before we got Acres, Billings and Dustan...al potential stars and added Bruce and Delaney for pretty much nothing. It doesn't matter where you get talent as long as you identify it and nurture it.

[The Fireman]

You don't quite get footy but that's ok. We need all types on here. Yep managers and players understand footy but if you show no improvement then there is no potential. Not caring if you own side wins shows how little people have looked at the last 20 years of footy and its even less important to lose now that there is basically no PP. Any team who doesn't have their foot to pedal has the wrong people in charge. Melbourne got charged with tanking, well sort of, and look how that has helped. They didn't have their foot to the pedal and they haven't shown great improvement. Hope we keep winning and cop the pick we cop. To hope otherwise suggests a complete lack of footy knowledge and history.

My MO is obvious here. I want us to win every game. I hope that is ok? Probably not though because you don't care if we win. Each to their own.

You really are a condescending <edit by mods> at times Plugger but that's ok I guess we need all types on here. I maintain we use the equalization policy to our advantage. We bottomed out under the policy and went to the top.
A footy expert like yourself would easily see the potential the Saints have as would the managers and oppo players. and when we top up I hope to not only win every game but to get flags To hope otherwise suggests a complete lack of footy knowledge and history.

back to you and please show a little more respect.

<WARNING ISSUED FOR ABUSE>

[SMS]

Wrong.

We need to build a winning culture and make no mistake IF 10 under 21s start winning reguarly thats a sign we will be great.
Drafts are a gamble. Pick 5 is good enough.
Winning is more important. Confidence is everything.

Undrstand where you are coming from though. You are a supporter. And your intentions are good. People back off the OP.

[SMS]

Lonie pick 42
Sinclair rookie pick.

Sonfar they were our best picks last year

[saintsRrising]

Lonie pick 42
Sinclair rookie pick.

Sonfar they were our best picks last year

While true so far, I think in time that we are going to look back at the 2014 draft as being one of our best ever.

McCartin, Goddard, DMak, Lonie, Sinclair....all 5 should become regulars. Then through in Membrey as well Payne is stilla chance.