Playing the oldies: squeezing out all the juice?

[Trev from the Bush]

Everyone talks about the magical 50 game mark - but its hard for Acres or Minch to get there if they are playing at Sandy every week.

Agree, Con. Just like everybody tals about the magical age of 30 being too old to be playing!

Not pointing at anybody, of course.

[Con Gorozidis]

Everyone talks about the magical 50 game mark - but its hard for Acres or Minch to get there if they are playing at Sandy every week.

Agree, Con. Just like everybody tals about the magical age of 30 being too old to be playing!

Not pointing at anybody, of course.

I don't care how old they are but 11.16 for Schneiderman in the last two seasons tells me he has lost a few yards of pace and is rushing his kicks.

[plugger66]

Everyone talks about the magical 50 game mark - but its hard for Acres or Minch to get there if they are playing at Sandy every week.

Agree, Con. Just like everybody tals about the magical age of 30 being too old to be playing!

Not pointing at anybody, of course.

I don't care how old they are but 11.16 for Schneiderman in the last two seasons tells me he has lost a few yards of pace and is rushing his kicks.

He is also averaging the most disposals per game than any other time in his career. You can do anything you want with stats.

[bergholt]

I think our list has an unusual profile in the fact that we don't have many mid career guys. We are young and old only. While Geelong were adding decent players in that period we have only produced a couple. If we had some Christensens, Mitch Duncans, Motlops etc we would look a lot better now. Cahill, Lynch, Cripps etc all ended up going or not making it and even Stanley was traded out.

Jarryd Allen is 27, with any luck he'd have 100 under the belt and be kicking goals every week.

[dragit]

Anyway all I am saying is play each individual on their individual merits on week to week basis.
Dont pick sides based on 'theories' or 'ideas' and high falutin notions of 'leadership' or this and that.
As you said this week Id bring in 3 more veterans (Ray, Joey, Geary) and only one out (Rooey) so I am not about 'playing the kids' for the sake of a theory either.
Just individual merit on a week to week basis.
For me as an individual Minch and Acres have earnt games by doing everything right in the twos.
If Minch is on his last year it will be very harsh if he doesnt get some opportunities before being de-listed.
All I am asking is the same opportunities Sinclair got (6 or 7 straight games) IF he goes well when hes in. I'm not sure anyone can argue that. Giving him one single game against the Hawks for instance would load the dice against him.

I think I am essentially on the same page as you and the bluth-dog in the end... there's no pretending we are not in full re-build. I just think we are already playing plenty of in-experienced guys right now.

It's ironic that I wasn't keen on re-rookying Schneider at all, now seem to be his defending him like he was my son. I think he has done a pretty good job but will need to make way if a few other senior guys come back in.

On Minchington, I think the worst thing that happened to his career was Billings followed by Lonie & Sinclair… it must be frustrating when you are on the main list and instead of playing you, they decide to upgrade 3 small forwards form the rookie list

I think Sinclair earnt his games so Minch would need to do the same to warrant 6-7 in a row… if he disappears like Saad then he'll only get a couple of games.

I'm pretty glad Fisher & Dempster (& Schneider) went on this year, I think he'd have had a few more smashings without them.

[Con Gorozidis]

Anyway all I am saying is play each individual on their individual merits on week to week basis.
Dont pick sides based on 'theories' or 'ideas' and high falutin notions of 'leadership' or this and that.
As you said this week Id bring in 3 more veterans (Ray, Joey, Geary) and only one out (Rooey) so I am not about 'playing the kids' for the sake of a theory either.
Just individual merit on a week to week basis.
For me as an individual Minch and Acres have earnt games by doing everything right in the twos.
If Minch is on his last year it will be very harsh if he doesnt get some opportunities before being de-listed.
All I am asking is the same opportunities Sinclair got (6 or 7 straight games) IF he goes well when hes in. I'm not sure anyone can argue that. Giving him one single game against the Hawks for instance would load the dice against him.

I think I am essentially on the same page as you and the bluth-dog in the end... there's no pretending we are not in full re-build. I just think we are already playing plenty of in-experienced guys right now.

It's ironic that I wasn't keen on re-rookying Schneider at all, now seem to be his defending him like he was my son. I think he has done a pretty good job but will need to make way if a few other senior guys come back in.

On Minchington, I think the worst thing that happened to his career was Billings followed by Lonie & Sinclair… it must be frustrating when you are on the main list and instead of playing you, they decide to upgrade 3 small forwards form the rookie list

I think Sinclair earnt his games so Minch would need to do the same to warrant 6-7 in a row… if he disappears like Saad then he'll only get a couple of games.

I'm pretty glad Fisher & Dempster (& Schneider) went on this year, I think he'd have had a few more smashings without them.

Sinclair earnt his game because he got a shot in the NAB cup including games against an atrocious Lions and a Bombers thirds. Minch never got that opportunity (got a short run in the Hawks game where we got pulverised).
Minch's last 10-12 games in the VFL have been outstanding
Love to see Minch get a shot against some AFL minnows so we can adequately judge him.
Saad got chances against plenty of terrible sides.
But people seem to happy to burn Minch and have a kid delisted at 21yo. Just seems very unfair to me. Maybe hes not good enough but I dont think we have adequate information.
We have two top 4 sides coming up - so that seems harsh - but if Lonie has a sore noggin surely Minch is the like for like. 13 tackles and two goals for heavens sake.

p.s I love Sinclair but dont see why it needs to be one or the other.

[dragit]

But people seem to happy to burn Minch and have a kid delisted at 21yo.

I don't agree, I think nearly everyone on here would be rapt to see him picked this week and get a few games.

[dragit]

I have heard that Richo tells young guys that they need 3-4 games in "the best" in the VFL to get a game... I realise that this seems to be contradicted at times, but you would think Minchington, Acres & Lee are on the cusp if true.

Saad, Curren & Ray come in and the SS meltdown will be catastrophic.

[Sainternist]

It's great to have a bit of a mix of experience in with the youth. But when the experienced players are getting long in the tooth, what then?
You know, as crazy as it sounds, those few rounds where our team were without both our two best, more experienced players (Roo and Joey) could have been a real blessing in disguise. There was some evidence that a few of the youngsters can really step up and are starting to remove the training wheels. I'm more than happy for some of the veterans to start going into retirement. In the process, we can replace them with a couple of more experienced players anyway. I really think the current squad is on the right track to come of age quite naturally. Of course this process will come naturally and over time. As the club stated last year: the progress will most likely be more apparent by 2018.

[Bluthy]

Anyway all I am saying is play each individual on their individual merits on week to week basis.
Dont pick sides based on 'theories' or 'ideas' and high falutin notions of 'leadership' or this and that.
As you said this week Id bring in 3 more veterans (Ray, Joey, Geary) and only one out (Rooey) so I am not about 'playing the kids' for the sake of a theory either.
Just individual merit on a week to week basis.
For me as an individual Minch and Acres have earnt games by doing everything right in the twos.
If Minch is on his last year it will be very harsh if he doesnt get some opportunities before being de-listed.
All I am asking is the same opportunities Sinclair got (6 or 7 straight games) IF he goes well when hes in. I'm not sure anyone can argue that. Giving him one single game against the Hawks for instance would load the dice against him.

I think I am essentially on the same page as you and the bluth-dog in the end... there's no pretending we are not in full re-build. I just think we are already playing plenty of in-experienced guys right now.

It's ironic that I wasn't keen on re-rookying Schneider at all, now seem to be his defending him like he was my son. I think he has done a pretty good job but will need to make way if a few other senior guys come back in.

On Minchington, I think the worst thing that happened to his career was Billings followed by Lonie & Sinclair… it must be frustrating when you are on the main list and instead of playing you, they decide to upgrade 3 small forwards form the rookie list

I think Sinclair earnt his games so Minch would need to do the same to warrant 6-7 in a row… if he disappears like Saad then he'll only get a couple of games.

I'm pretty glad Fisher & Dempster (& Schneider) went on this year, I think he'd have had a few more smashings without them.

Sinclair earnt his game because he got a shot in the NAB cup including games against an atrocious Lions and a Bombers thirds. Minch never got that opportunity (got a short run in the Hawks game where we got pulverised).
Minch's last 10-12 games in the VFL have been outstanding
Love to see Minch get a shot against some AFL minnows so we can adequately judge him.
Saad got chances against plenty of terrible sides.
But people seem to happy to burn Minch and have a kid delisted at 21yo. Just seems very unfair to me. Maybe hes not good enough but I dont think we have adequate information.
We have two top 4 sides coming up - so that seems harsh - but if Lonie has a sore noggin surely Minch is the like for like. 13 tackles and two goals for heavens sake.

p.s I love Sinclair but dont see why it needs to be one or the other.

The proviso with that is that Minch is playing footy and IS being evaluated. We put so much emphasis on AFL these days as the be all and end all but for decades playing in the 2's has been seen as a pretty damn good footy league. Richo I think goes to the 2's when he can and might get a video when he's not there. We would have a lot of our evaluating type guys going to the ressies and these guys know to sort the AFL wheat from the VFL chaff ie have an eye for what style of play will ramp up to AFL effectively and which won't.

So its a bit misleading to say Minch (or Spencer or Lee or Sippos or Pierce) are not "getting a shot". Obviously to most of us the AFL is the high profile comp we care 99% about and we only know second hand accounts of play at VFL, but that's not the case for the majority of our footy admin. Every week all uninjured players are playing footy and getting evaluated. You only have to read the VFL write up on our site each week to see the tip of the analysis iceberg they do on each player.

[gringo]

Everyone talks about the magical 50 game mark - but its hard for Acres or Minch to get there if they are playing at Sandy every week.

Agree, Con. Just like everybody tals about the magical age of 30 being too old to be playing!

Not pointing at anybody, of course.

I don't care how old they are but 11.16 for Schneiderman in the last two seasons tells me he has lost a few yards of pace and is rushing his kicks.

He is also averaging the most disposals per game than any other time in his career. You can do anything you want with stats.

That's because he's moved out of being a forward and is roaming further afield. Same reason his accuracy has fallen away.

[gringo]

But people seem to happy to burn Minch and have a kid delisted at 21yo.

I don't agree, I think nearly everyone on here would be rapt to see him picked this week and get a few games.

If I don't get bought a beer right now a baby kitten will die. It's the only way. Only someone with beer can save this kitten. It's very cute and it's all the match committees fault. Seriously there are about 5 guys who have been having great VFL seasons who should have got games by now but it sometimes takes luck in a spot opening up to get a run in the seniors. It may be seen as prudent to bring in a couple of mature players in Montagna and Ray and Saad could come in. It will not be based on emotion just a selection process that the club follows. We can get upset about it or just resign ourselves to having no say

[Con Gorozidis]

But people seem to happy to burn Minch and have a kid delisted at 21yo.

I don't agree, I think nearly everyone on here would be rapt to see him picked this week and get a few games.

If I don't get bought a beer right now a baby kitten will die. It's the only way. Only someone with beer can save this kitten. It's very cute and it's all the match committees fault. Seriously there are about 5 guys who have been having great VFL seasons who should have got games by now but it sometimes takes luck in a spot opening up to get a run in the seniors. It may be seen as prudent to bring in a couple of mature players in Montagna and Ray and Saad could come in. It will not be based on emotion just a selection process that the club follows. We can get upset about it or just resign ourselves to having no say

I am not upset. But of course the club makes emotional decisions also. They are also human.
Saad had a really god run and got to play against some shitehouse teams and still couldnt get a sniff. Too early for him to be recalled imo.
Opportunity and luck do play a role. It is not all entirely rational and logical. All I ask for is consistency, integrity and fairness.

[plugger66]

But people seem to happy to burn Minch and have a kid delisted at 21yo.

I don't agree, I think nearly everyone on here would be rapt to see him picked this week and get a few games.

If I don't get bought a beer right now a baby kitten will die. It's the only way. Only someone with beer can save this kitten. It's very cute and it's all the match committees fault. Seriously there are about 5 guys who have been having great VFL seasons who should have got games by now but it sometimes takes luck in a spot opening up to get a run in the seniors. It may be seen as prudent to bring in a couple of mature players in Montagna and Ray and Saad could come in. It will not be based on emotion just a selection process that the club follows. We can get upset about it or just resign ourselves to having no say

I am not upset. But of course the club makes emotional decisions also. They are also human.
Saad had a really god run and got to play against some shitehouse teams and still couldnt get a sniff. Too early for him to be recalled imo.
Opportunity and luck do play a role. It is not all entirely rational and logical. All I ask for is consistency, integrity and fairness.

I think we get that and unlike most here the coaches see the weaknesses and the strengths of players in games and at training.

[saintspremiers]

Everyone talks about the magical 50 game mark - but its hard for Acres or Minch to get there if they are playing at Sandy every week.

Agree, Con. Just like everybody tals about the magical age of 30 being too old to be playing!

Not pointing at anybody, of course.

I don't care how old they are but 11.16 for Schneiderman in the last two seasons tells me he has lost a few yards of pace and is rushing his kicks.

He is also averaging the most disposals per game than any other time in his career. You can do anything you want with stats.

With his disposal count being so high that smacks of being selfish.

He should refrain from winning the footy to give the youngsters a go.

It totally ruins any "drop Schneider" agendas.....

[gringo]

But people seem to happy to burn Minch and have a kid delisted at 21yo.

I don't agree, I think nearly everyone on here would be rapt to see him picked this week and get a few games.

If I don't get bought a beer right now a baby kitten will die. It's the only way. Only someone with beer can save this kitten. It's very cute and it's all the match committees fault. Seriously there are about 5 guys who have been having great VFL seasons who should have got games by now but it sometimes takes luck in a spot opening up to get a run in the seniors. It may be seen as prudent to bring in a couple of mature players in Montagna and Ray and Saad could come in. It will not be based on emotion just a selection process that the club follows. We can get upset about it or just resign ourselves to having no say

I am not upset. But of course the club makes emotional decisions also. They are also human.
Saad had a really god run and got to play against some shitehouse teams and still couldnt get a sniff. Too early for him to be recalled imo.
Opportunity and luck do play a role. It is not all entirely rational and logical. All I ask for is consistency, integrity and fairness.

Saad was really good until concussed against Collingwood. Wasn't the same afterwards. I think it comes down to open spots and team balance. Saad is probably a decent like for like swap for Lonie especially with Sinclair out. Conversely they might think a more multidimensional player wold be better and put Minch in that role in case they need a guy who can run through the midfield. The other open spots will come down to wether we want to try to exploit WCEs lack of defensive height or try to protect the defence with extra midfield numbers. Having Rooey, Geary and possibly Joey all out could mean they opt for experience. There is more than just he's played good in the VFL put him in.

[seano1]

The Hawks have done it well ...worked out what they needed and went after those players to fill the spots didn`t matter to them if they were 25 or 30 as long as they put in. They have talented younger guys playing with the vets and have continued I think to have a average age of about 26 or 27.....I think that is the right mix for GF`S.

[Con Gorozidis]

But people seem to happy to burn Minch and have a kid delisted at 21yo.

I don't agree, I think nearly everyone on here would be rapt to see him picked this week and get a few games.

If I don't get bought a beer right now a baby kitten will die. It's the only way. Only someone with beer can save this kitten. It's very cute and it's all the match committees fault. Seriously there are about 5 guys who have been having great VFL seasons who should have got games by now but it sometimes takes luck in a spot opening up to get a run in the seniors. It may be seen as prudent to bring in a couple of mature players in Montagna and Ray and Saad could come in. It will not be based on emotion just a selection process that the club follows. We can get upset about it or just resign ourselves to having no say

Poor logic and attempted humor when your metaphor is not analogous at all. There is no connection between the kitten and the beer but there is clearly a connection between players with limited list spots, limited games and limited opportunities. The link is in fact direct and close.
And dont tell me the club is some bunch or oracles who make every decision with the wisdom of solomon. 1 flag in 120 years tells me they dont do much better than a dart and a dart board.

[Con Gorozidis]

The Hawks have done it well ...worked out what they needed and went after those players to fill the spots didn`t matter to them if they were 25 or 30 as long as they put in. They have talented younger guys playing with the vets and have continued I think to have a average age of about 26 or 27.....I think that is the right mix for GF`S.

Are you seriously comparing our list demographics and list mgt with the hawks? you do realise they just came off back-to-back flags and we finished dead last right? And the reason they were able to 'fill spots' was because good players WANT to go there because they have three flags in 6 years. I would Argue that Vossy and Carlton tried the 'top-up' approach and look how that panned out. We are only going to rise with quality youth. There is no 'topping up' when you finish dead last from 18. There is no 'middle-way'. The chance to do that passed us by 5 years ago now. You could argue 7-8 years ago. That doesnt mean I want to get rid of our all old players - a few of them are our best players still. Roo can play until hes 40 as far as I am concerned at this rate.

Maybe compare our list demographics to the Hawks in 2005 might be a more realistic approach to take.

[ace]

Richo is obviously a fan of having experience around the young players. He said many times that we don't need to bring experience in because we have our own and intends to use it. As well as having the experience and being vocal, the oldies are also a kind of security blanket while the youngsters get some games under their belt.

Next year could be a mini-revolution and the genuine birth of St Kilda: the next-generation. Out of the following at least a few and maybe more could retire or struggle to get on the park much at all: Schneider (very slow, poor defensive efforts), Fisher (another serious injury could be it), Montagna (becoming injury prone, burgeoning media career, doesn't seem to enjoy the game as much), Dempster (slowing down), Ray (b-grade, injuries), Gilbert (serious foot problems) and even *gulp* Rooey (copping some sickening head injuries, media career, new baby, America).

Even if Schneider goes out and Ray comes in there is a similar dilemma. Do you play a b-grade player with lots of experience or get games into quality young players like Acres or McKenzie or try out players like Minch or Curren to give them a fair run before deciding on tough delisting questions. There is no correct answer but I think the amount of possible retirees this year has lead Richo to want to squeeze those old oranges to get the last of that well fermented juice out to mix in with the somewhat green oranges in the fruit bowl before the worn out peel is finally tossed away (I really want an orange now).

I am not so concerned about the oranges.

It is the lemons that I want to see squeezed off the list.