Playing the oldies: squeezing out all the juice?

[Bluthy]

Richo is obviously a fan of having experience around the young players. He said many times that we don't need to bring experience in because we have our own and intends to use it. As well as having the experience and being vocal, the oldies are also a kind of security blanket while the youngsters get some games under their belt.

Next year could be a mini-revolution and the genuine birth of St Kilda: the next-generation. Out of the following at least a few and maybe more could retire or struggle to get on the park much at all: Schneider (very slow, poor defensive efforts), Fisher (another serious injury could be it), Montagna (becoming injury prone, burgeoning media career, doesn't seem to enjoy the game as much), Dempster (slowing down), Ray (b-grade, injuries), Gilbert (serious foot problems) and even *gulp* Rooey (copping some sickening head injuries, media career, new baby, America).

Even if Schneider goes out and Ray comes in there is a similar dilemma. Do you play a b-grade player with lots of experience or get games into quality young players like Acres or McKenzie or try out players like Minch or Curren to give them a fair run before deciding on tough delisting questions. There is no correct answer but I think the amount of possible retirees this year has lead Richo to want to squeeze those old oranges to get the last of that well fermented juice out to mix in with the somewhat green oranges in the fruit bowl before the worn out peel is finally tossed away (I really want an orange now).

[gringo]

I think Melbourne have made teams scared to go too youth heavy. 60+ point thrashings don't really do a lot of good for the kids confidence. I think we are getting the balance right at the moment.

[Bluthy]

I think Melbourne have made teams scared to go too youth heavy. 60+ point thrashings don't really do a lot of good for the kids confidence. I think we are getting the balance right at the moment.

The Melbourne case is over stated. There was a cancer at that club - the players KNEW that the club didn't want them to win. You take away players desperation to win and you destroy their development - desperation is a players best friend in AFL footy. Next year I expect us to go like Port really banking on youth. This year we should be able to ween ourselves off the security blankets (that have some holes in them) a bit. What turned the dogs game was the kids cracking in and taking it on, with the oldies more the encouraging guys by their side saying "go for it kids...we believe in you!"

[saintsRrising]

If a player is good enough, he should play on.


Good players are hard enough to find without making it harder by showing players the door purely based on birthdate. Look at Flethcher and Boomer.

Who knows how long Roo may play on. Might be one year, or he could be in our next finals tilt playing midfield link to Bruce and McCartin.

[Con Gorozidis]

What if you are rebuilding and trying to get games into younger players.
Young players are performing in the VFL and the over 30s are your 21st-23rd best players.
Then what?

No such issue for Roo as he in our top 2 or 3 players week in week out.

[plugger66]

Just seems like another thread for you to pot Schneider. We have about 10 spots a game for kids under 22. I would think that is plenty. If the kids are equal with the older guys then the kids will play but I did notice this week many want Dunstan out so I would suggest again this thread is purely to knock Schneider. Hard to take it seriously when there is a clear agenda. The worst part is Schneider may go back by round 11 anyway. I don't see the rush to get rid of him. And amazingly there wasn't a thread like this last week when we won a game.

No inexperienced side can lose Geary and Joey before the game and then lose Rooy and Lonie in the first part of the game and expect to win in Adelaide.

[Teflon]

It's a genuine thread on where we are at now - getting the balance of youth/experience right is crucial to our overall improvement

I look at Ray and ask similar questions - good player, too good for VFL but not going to take us further at AFL level and IMHO IF a younger player is performing even marginally less than Ray he ought to take precedence

We can't have all kids but we equally can't prolong careers at the expense of the future. I think Roo,Joey, Armo, Steven,Dempster,Fisher,Geary is plenty of senior leadership and 1 or 2 fringe runners likeSchneider and Ray are filler and less critical.
Put another way - if Ray gives me 28 possessions at AFL and Acres 20 , I'd continue with Acres, time and again we know what happens when youth hits that 50+ game mark...

[boneless23]

It's a genuine thread on where we are at now - getting the balance of youth/experience right is crucial to our overall improvement

I look at Ray and ask similar questions - good player, too good for VFL but not going to take us further at AFL level and IMHO IF a younger player is performing even marginally less than Ray he ought to take precedence

We can't have all kids but we equally can't prolong careers at the expense of the future. I think Roo,Joey, Armo, Steven,Dempster,Fisher,Geary is plenty of senior leadership and 1 or 2 fringe runners likeSchneider and Ray are filler and less critical.
Put another way - if Ray gives me 28 possessions at AFL and Acres 20 , I'd continue with Acres, time and again we know what happens when youth hits that 50+ game mark...

This is a very interesting thread.

Totally agree with everything you have said Teflon. When the club signs on to a four year rebuild then tough decisions have to be continually made throughout those four years on the older players and we often have to sacrifce results in favour of developing the kids. The GWS model of having a core group of 5 experienced players (Mumford, Ward, Shaw, Patfull, Griffen) and then a second tier of 22-25 year old players (Davis, Palmer, Scully) seems to be about right as it enables a rotation of 16-20 quality kids to gain senior experience.

We are not where the GWS are yet as we are 1 or 2 drafts short of the talent we need so the 2015 and 2016 drafts remain super important. Hypothetically, if the club pulls the trigger this year and trades our 1st round pick (lets say its pick 3) for a proven 22-24 year old onballer (e.g Treloar) which would work for both parties (as it would continue GWS's strategy of spreading out its age demongraphic and bolster our middle age bracket) our 2016 core playing group should look like this:

Older Core- Riewoldt, Dempster, Fisher, Montagna, Armo, Geary
Middle Tier- Steven, Treloar, Hickey, Longer, Delaney, Bruce, Newnes, Weller, Ross, Savage, Roberton
Young Players- McCartin, Billings, Dunstan, Goodard, Acres, McKenzie, Webster, Wright, Lonie, Sinclair, Membrey, 2nd Round Pick, 3rd Round Pick

This is starting to looking like a really well balanced playing group and one that will continue to improve with the addition of the 2016 draft selections and potentially a needs based Free Agent to finish it off or mitigate the loss of Riewoldt, Joey and Fisher.

[plugger66]

It's a genuine thread on where we are at now - getting the balance of youth/experience right is crucial to our overall improvement

I look at Ray and ask similar questions - good player, too good for VFL but not going to take us further at AFL level and IMHO IF a younger player is performing even marginally less than Ray he ought to take precedence

We can't have all kids but we equally can't prolong careers at the expense of the future. I think Roo,Joey, Armo, Steven,Dempster,Fisher,Geary is plenty of senior leadership and 1 or 2 fringe runners likeSchneider and Ray are filler and less critical.
Put another way - if Ray gives me 28 possessions at AFL and Acres 20 , I'd continue with Acres, time and again we know what happens when youth hits that 50+ game mark...

This is a very interesting thread.

Totally agree with everything you have said Teflon. When the club signs on to a four year rebuild then tough decisions have to be continually made throughout those four years on the older players and we often have to sacrifce results in favour of developing the kids. The GWS model of having a core group of 5 experienced players (Mumford, Ward, Shaw, Patfull, Griffen) and then a second tier of 22-25 year old players (Davis, Palmer, Scully) seems to be about right as it enables a rotation of 16-20 quality kids to gain senior experience.

We are not where the GWS are yet as we are 1 or 2 drafts short of the talent we need so the 2015 and 2016 drafts remain super important. Hypothetically, if the club pulls the trigger this year and trades our 1st round pick (lets say its pick 3) for a proven 22-24 year old onballer (e.g Treloar) which would work for both parties (as it would continue GWS's strategy of spreading out its age demongraphic and bolster our middle age bracket) our 2016 core playing group should look like this:

Older Core- Riewoldt, Dempster, Fisher, Montagna, Armo, Geary
Middle Tier- Steven, Treloar, Hickey, Longer, Delaney, Bruce, Newnes, Weller, Ross, Savage, Roberton
Young Players- McCartin, Billings, Dunstan, Goodard, Acres, McKenzie, Webster, Wright, Lonie, Sinclair, Membrey, 2nd Round Pick, 3rd Round Pick

This is starting to looking like a really well balanced playing group and one that will continue to improve with the addition of the 2016 draft selections and potentially a needs based Free Agent to finish it off or mitigate the loss of Riewoldt, Joey and Fisher.

Forget comparing our situation to GWS because they had so many first rounder picks but even with them they realised the importance of experienced players. I have no idea why so many people are in a rush with getting rid of older players and playing young kids. It will happen. Bluthy has some set against Schneider but he will be gone at the end of the season and may not be able to play seniors from about round 11 this season anyway. The other older players will gradually go to. The problem we have compared to most clubs is we have bugger all 25- 29 year olds and that is why we have kept the older players going longer than maybe some would like. My guess is on the training track its paying huge dividends because there has been some great team improvement this year. If you don't believe that look at the great players that have gone since SW last year. We actually have bugger all right to be competitive in games yet when you look who we have lost and also who has missed games this year.

[saynta]

Richo is obviously a fan of having experience around the young players. He said many times that we don't need to bring experience in because we have our own and intends to use it. As well as having the experience and being vocal, the oldies are also a kind of security blanket while the youngsters get some games under their belt.

Next year could be a mini-revolution and the genuine birth of St Kilda: the next-generation. Out of the following at least a few and maybe more could retire or struggle to get on the park much at all: Schneider (very slow, poor defensive efforts), Fisher (another serious injury could be it), Montagna (becoming injury prone, burgeoning media career, doesn't seem to enjoy the game as much), Dempster (slowing down), Ray (b-grade, injuries), Gilbert (serious foot problems) and even *gulp* Rooey (copping some sickening head injuries, media career, new baby, America).

Even if Schneider goes out and Ray comes in there is a similar dilemma. Do you play a b-grade player with lots of experience or get games into quality young players like Acres or McKenzie or try out players like Minch or Curren to give them a fair run before deciding on tough delisting questions. There is no correct answer but I think the amount of possible retirees this year has lead Richo to want to squeeze those old oranges to get the last of that well fermented juice out to mix in with the somewhat green oranges in the fruit bowl before the worn out peel is finally tossed away (I really want an orange now).

Those are very interesting questions with a hint of truth about the oldies. Only a hint mind you. Guess we will just have to wait and see.

[mad saint guy]

I am concerned that we're not going to see if some of the younger guys (who are potentially on the chopping block) are up to it at senior level. Curren, Siposs, Markworth, Minchington, Murdoch, Simpkin, Saunders and White are the younger guys who are in danger of being delisted. I know Siposs, Markworth and Murdoch have been injured but I hope they all get at least a few senior games in a role that suits them before the end of the year.

Granted Curren has had senior games but has been pushed out of the tagging role by Weller and isn't damaging enough as a forward.
Siposs showed great potential early on and has probably been made redundant by Membrey, but he looked to be a natural forward with incredible skill. Give him another chance
Saunders IMO is not up to it because he lacks polish
Simpkin could well be retained as backup; he could easily slot into the team and do a decent job in place of Dempster/Fisher if needed
Markworth needs to be given the Spencer White treatment of last year - give him two games at the end of the year when he's match fit to show something
White just needs to improve his intensity and gain confidence back. Clearly has talent and I'd like to see him get another go in the seniors
Murdoch is looking like a long shot. Has good attributes but doesn't win enough of the ball. Would like to see him given a chance as a big-bodied inside midfielder this year

But the one that frustrates me most is the treatment of Minchington. He has performed pretty well and shown great skill, pace and goal sense in his senior appearances and is now regularly racking up good possession tallies and huge tackle numbers in the VFL yet we keep Schneider in the senior team ahead of him. I'd also have Minch comfortably ahead of Templeton, Saad and Curren in the pecking order for senior selection and I just don't know why he isn't getting a crack. This is his fourth year on the list and he's played 5 games. We know exactly what Schneider offers and we have no idea what Minch can do yet. We're even rushing Joey back from injury over and over again while Minch is showing awesome form as a goalkicking mid/half forward.

I believe that if an older player is performing at a high level (clearly better than a kid would), you absolutely keep them in the side. No one is going to push Roo or Fisher out any time soon. But continuing to play a slow, ineffective Schneider ahead of kids who are performing in the VFL and competing for that spot is seriously detrimental to our development. Same goes if Dempster or Geary hit a bad patch of form - the in-form younger player who may or may not be offered another contract should be given a chance to show their worth. The likes of Schneider, Geary, Dempster, Ray and Gilbert should have to be in very strong form to keep the kids out of the side.

[plugger66]

I must be watching different games with this bagging of Schneider. Would be in the top 8 players this season. As for Geary well that's just laughable. He is a leader and must play when fit. As I said before the favourite that it seems a lot want this week is Dunstan. probably shows how people just judge everything on one single game and not look at the bigger picture. We enough spots for younger guys if they deserve a game. Not only must we develop kids by playing we must develop them by being competitive.

[bergholt]

I look at Ray and ask similar questions - good player, too good for VFL but not going to take us further at AFL level and IMHO IF a younger player is performing even marginally less than Ray he ought to take precedence

Agreed, I think Ray is the main one to look at from that point of view. He's a good clubman and probably provides OK leadership for the kids. But as a player he's just passable, doesn't have any real strengths apart from his overhead marking, and plays a wing/flank role that a huge list of kids could play almost as well with very little effect on our chances of winning.

I'd say he's competing with: Acres, Curren, Lonie, Markworth, McKenzie, Murdoch, Newnes, Roberton, Saunders, Savage, Shenton, Templeton, Webster, Wright. Most/all of those guys should play before him any given week. The only reason I'd play him is if a few of the older guys are out, then it makes sense to have a bit more experience in the side.

All else being equal he should play about 10 games a year.

[bigcarl]

I'd have Ray in before Dempster, for example. More versatile and gets more of the ball. But both have played a lot of good football for us.

To be honest Ray will provide more than a lot of the promising - yes promising - kids at this stage.

It depends on how you rate Ray, of course. I reckon he is underrated by many

[aaron82]

This pension off the old players conversation that seems to happening quite a lot is absurd. Our focus this early in the season should be to win games of football. We need a carrot for the old types Roo, Fish, Montagna etc to be out there and performing. Sure, we wont be playing finals for quite a while but we MUST be developing a winning culture.

Schneider has been fantastic this season, he is mainly a downhill skier these days but his experience and decision making is vital for the development of the younger players. He would make a great assistant coach in my view. Not to mention we need to have the bigger bodies out there otherwise we would cop some fearful hidings GWS style from a few years ago.

In the last 5 or so games when senior players are sent for surgery etc is the time to perhaps try players in position or find out if they are any good.

[prwilkinson]

Can't believe Sinclair has been put back on the rookie list.

[SaintWodonga]

Can't believe Sinclair has been put back on the rookie list.

That's the rules, Ross is coming off the injury list. I am sure Sinclair will be elevated come the end of the year.

[gringo]

I think Melbourne have made teams scared to go too youth heavy. 60+ point thrashings don't really do a lot of good for the kids confidence. I think we are getting the balance right at the moment.

The Melbourne case is over stated. There was a cancer at that club - the players KNEW that the club didn't want them to win. You take away players desperation to win and you destroy their development - desperation is a players best friend in AFL footy. Next year I expect us to go like Port really banking on youth. This year we should be able to ween ourselves off the security blankets (that have some holes in them) a bit. What turned the dogs game was the kids cracking in and taking it on, with the oldies more the encouraging guys by their side saying "go for it kids...we believe in you!"

It could be argued that they are pretty similar to us with a few seniors in Boyd, Murphy and Morris. They then have a few middle career guys like Easton Wood, Roughead, Dalhaus etc and then a big bunch of talented kids like Bontempelli, Mc Crae and Stringer. Where they are ahead of us is that the kids are all a few seasons in and are starting to be solid rather than flakey. I still think the Dogs will fall away at some point and we will probably too soon. What we want to do is get the good kids up to pace with out over working them. I expect this year we will find a few guys who look like stars and get games into them. I think we are fairly balanced in our list make up from a competitive point of view and the development is ticking along too. Nothing wrong with what we are doing ATM to me.

[gringo]

Can't believe Sinclair has been put back on the rookie list.

That's the rules, Ross is coming off the injury list. I am sure Sinclair will be elevated come the end of the year.

If Ross comes in and starts averaging 25 possessions a game people will forget about Sinclair in a few weeks. I'm pretty confident Sinclair will be upgraded on to the primary list by next year.

[dragit]

What turned the dogs game was the kids cracking in and taking it on, with the oldies more the encouraging guys by their side saying "go for it kids...we believe in you!"

Sure thing bluthy it was all the kids while the vets were just by their side...



We are playing about a dozen "kids" each week... how many do you want in the side?

[prwilkinson]

Can't believe Sinclair has been put back on the rookie list.

That's the rules, Ross is coming off the injury list. I am sure Sinclair will be elevated come the end of the year.

If Ross comes in and starts averaging 25 possessions a game people will forget about Sinclair in a few weeks. I'm pretty confident Sinclair will be upgraded on to the primary list by next year.

Didn't know there were set rules. Yeah, he's shown plenty. Might even be better for him to play the rest of the year with sandy (who are looking great) and get a big pre season under his belt for next year.

[saintsRrising]

Can't believe Sinclair has been put back on the rookie list.

That's the rules, Ross is coming off the injury list. I am sure Sinclair will be elevated come the end of the year.

If Ross comes in and starts averaging 25 possessions a game people will forget about Sinclair in a few weeks. I'm pretty confident Sinclair will be upgraded on to the primary list by next year.

Didn't know there were set rules. Yeah, he's shown plenty. Might even be better for him to play the rest of the year with sandy (who are looking great) and get a big pre season under his belt for next year.

Rule is that rookie elevated for players put on long-term injury list, must go back if the injury player returns.

However another Rookie Rule is that the club is allowed to elevate one rookie after Round 11....so that could be Sinclair, Schneider, Saad.....or even another such as Holmes.

[Con Gorozidis]

The Minch has had 13 tackles and two goals which much be close to a record and Acres was BOG two weeks in a row.

http://www.saints.com.au/news/2015-05-1 ... ew-round-5

[Bluthy]

Really interesting thoughts from everyone.

There is no clear answer to this youth v experience conundrum every club battles with. You can definitely make a case for the likes Schneider and Ray. Schneids is a gobby little fella (just ask the umps) - when Rooey went down I saw him addressing the troops strongly. Someone being vocal out there can spark the kids up a bit like Dad telling a teenager to get off the couch and do something useful. SChneids real speciality is finding pockets of space so that's a handy thing for Billing, Lonie, Sinclair to see right in front of their eyes. And then there are intangibles we don't really know like Schneider is a bit of character and mabye Richo likes his irreverence and team bonding when young players are feeling the pressure on game day.

And with Schneider, Ray and Geary, Richo knows what he's gunna get. With kids being up and down (Sinclair has a habit of disappearing in parts of games), Coaches love having some steady players to base a game plan around even if they are not the type to break open the game. They also give Richo the ability to maintain authority by not being forced to play young players when he knows can have Farren out there doing a role. So it gives him leverage to get the young players to do the things asked of them and to train hard and do everything right before getting the run in the big show. I think part of the reason we brought in the likes of Weller, Delaney, Savage etc - guys who need to make it at St Kilda or their career is probably over so you can pretty confident will train hard and do everything right - was to give Richo that sort of authority and competition for spots.

But aFter this season Billing, Dunstan, Longer and Hickey should be pushing 40 games, Newnes, Weller and Delaney over 60, Savage over 80, Geary over 100 so we are building up a platform of early to mid 20's players who should be self-directed and enough on field experience to take over from some of the oldies. And maybe with Schneider, as he's currently AFL fit, you just squeeze every last drop out now before he's discarded for good.

[dragit]

The Minch has had 13 tackles and two goals which much be close to a record and Acres was BOG two weeks in a row.

http://www.saints.com.au/news/2015-05-1 ... ew-round-5

Be happy to see both of those guys come in, sounds like they are both pressing hard…

I don't think it needs to be at the expense of Schneider or Montagna though.

Schneider could go on for another couple of years at this rate, goal kicking his only real blemish this year.