Solid Foundation forming

[older saint]

I had a discussion with a few mates this week about the core of developing teams in 2 years time , based on what they currently have. Basically how many holes will need filling and how many ?marks are there. GWS lead the discussions but risk of losing players exists. Bulldogs solid base and Essendon great spine. Melbourne like us , while Carlton in trouble and Collingwood and Richmond could tip either way. A lot based on speculation and development expectations obviously but we stack up ok i think:

B: Geary, Deleaney, Wright
HB:Savage, Goddard,Webster
C:Newness, Dunstan, Steven
HF: Billings, Bruce, Membery
F: Lonie, McCartin, Saad
Foll: Longer, Armitage, Weller
Int: Hickey, Ross, Roberton, Sinclair

Obviously over the next 2 years I expect us to have a couple more top 5 picks to slide in there.

Guys who have shown enough to be good or very good players:
Steven, Armitage, Savage, Deleaney, Newness, Dunstan,

Youngsters which have BIG upside either due to play so far or size meaning later development:
Goddard, Webster, Billings, Bruce, McCartin, Longer, Hickey, Lonie, Sinclair

Good hard workers which everyone needs :
Geary, Wright, Membery, Ross, Roberton, Weller,

Under threat by future picks:
Saad,

With others yet unseen , free agents and draft picks it has a great base for the future .
Thoughts

[plugger66]

I had a discussion with a few mates this week about the core of developing teams in 2 years time , based on what they currently have. Basically how many holes will need filling and how many ?marks are there. GWS lead the discussions but risk of losing players exists. Bulldogs solid base and Essendon great spine. Melbourne like us , while Carlton in trouble and Collingwood and Richmond could tip either way. A lot based on speculation and development expectations obviously but we stack up ok i think:

B: Geary, Deleaney, Wright
HB:Savage, Goddard,Webster
C:Newness, Dunstan, Steven
HF: Billings, Bruce, Membery
F: Lonie, McCartin, Saad
Foll: Longer, Armitage, Weller
Int: Hickey, Ross, Roberton, Sinclair

Obviously over the next 2 years I expect us to have a couple more top 5 picks to slide in there.

Guys who have shown enough to be good or very good players:
Steven, Armitage, Savage, Deleaney, Newness, Dunstan,

Youngsters which have BIG upside either due to play so far or size meaning later development:
Goddard, Webster, Billings, Bruce, McCartin, Longer, Hickey, Lonie, Sinclair

Good hard workers which everyone needs :
Geary, Wright, Membery, Ross, Roberton, Weller,

Under threat by future picks:
Saad,

With others yet unseen , free agents and draft picks it has a great base for the future .
Thoughts

Previous history suggests there is much more under threat than Saad. Cant say who they are but I would expect about 50% of that side will not be around in 4 years time. We need at least 10 better players in the side to be high up there in the finals. It will hopefully happen. I see 2019 as our first venture back into the 8. What happens after that will depend how many stars we have and how good our bottom 6 are.

[darylcowie]

I think we can be on the cusp of playing finals again by 2017 as long as we fast track the development of our mids and key forwards. McCartin and Bruce, with possibly White roaming in the dare I say it Buddy role up forward, getting great service from Steven, Dunstan, Acres, Billings, McKenzie et al.

[borderbarry]

I would suggest that all players who have been around a while but are still struggling to get a regular game will be at risk.
In the coming draft I would hope we pick up at least four players (that includes players traded in) that can improve our side, and in future seasons 2 or 3 a year.

[citywest]

Delaney is not good enough. North let him go for a reason. I would say that he goes at the end of this year and Goddard becomes a regular.

[Saintberra]

I'll give a crack, players from this team that might be there when we get into the top 8:

B: -----, -----, Wright (on edge)
HB: Savage, Goddard ,Webster
C:Newness, Dunstan, Steven
HF: Billings, Bruce, ----
F: Lonie, McCartin, ----
Foll: Longer, Armitage, Weller
Int: Hickey, -----, -----, Sinclair

Longer, Hickey, Bruce and Membrey will not be on the same team.

Even the list above, I'm probably being a little generous with a few of the players.

[saintsRrising]

Delaney is not good enough. North let him go for a reason. I would say that he goes at the end of this year and Goddard becomes a regular.

So how long do you think Sam Fisher will keep playing?

[Con Gorozidis]

Delaney is not good enough. North let him go for a reason. I would say that he goes at the end of this year and Goddard becomes a regular.

So how long do you think Sam Fisher will keep playing?

Id keep Delaney at this stage
Send Newness back to the backline - he's not good enough as a mid
Put Savage in the back pocket
Trial Lee down back (who knows)
Bring back Webster
Bring back Gilbo

If this all works then Dempster and Fisher can retire.

[The Fireman]

we are on track for another #1 pick. I predicted 2 wins this year (probably a bit generous) but we will do well next year when the kids can run out a game.

[magnifisaint]

Delaney is not good enough. North let him go for a reason. I would say that he goes at the end of this year and Goddard becomes a regular.

I seeDelaney as our Shanahan. Pure stopper, nothing else.

[wasaintsfan]

I had a discussion with a few mates this week about the core of developing teams in 2 years time , based on what they currently have. Basically how many holes will need filling and how many ?marks are there. GWS lead the discussions but risk of losing players exists. Bulldogs solid base and Essendon great spine. Melbourne like us , while Carlton in trouble and Collingwood and Richmond could tip either way. A lot based on speculation and development expectations obviously but we stack up ok i think:

B: Geary, Deleaney, Wright
HB:Savage, Goddard,Webster
C:Newness, Dunstan, Steven
HF: Billings, Bruce, Membery
F: Lonie, McCartin, Saad
Foll: Longer, Armitage, Weller
Int: Hickey, Ross, Roberton, Sinclair

Obviously over the next 2 years I expect us to have a couple more top 5 picks to slide in there.

Guys who have shown enough to be good or very good players:
Steven, Armitage, Savage, Deleaney, Newness, Dunstan,

Youngsters which have BIG upside either due to play so far or size meaning later development:
Goddard, Webster, Billings, Bruce, McCartin, Longer, Hickey, Lonie, Sinclair

Good hard workers which everyone needs :
Geary, Wright, Membery, Ross, Roberton, Weller,

Under threat by future picks:
Saad,

With others yet unseen , free agents and draft picks it has a great base for the future .
Thoughts

I kinda think we are making the same mistakes as Melbourne were.
Coaches sticking to their guns when players are clearly being outdone not making changes when needed in play to play game plan. Ie Carlton just did the exact same play from bounces and throw ins for 3/4 and killed us..

Roos seems to have changed that in Melbourne which is creating them to be competitive more often. I don't say bring in ultra defence etc. but when a plan isn't working mix it up a little don't need to change whole game plan but make it a little un predictable

[ShanghaiSaint]

a lot of good things today, but we ran out of gas... we have defensive issues again. need more run of half back

[oldie60]

I think in fairness to some of the defence, you will always look ordinary when you don't win and control the ball in the midfield. No different to last week in the middle,we got smashed so just the sheer weight of entries will create scoring opportunities for our opposition and added pressure for the defenders. I agree Delaney is not the greatest but at the moment i think any Full Back/Chb at our club would be struggling. I think as we get stronger in the middle you will see an improvement defensively. Dawson and Blake were not great defenders we just had better players around the ground.

[LTN16]

Delaney is not good enough. North let him go for a reason. I would say that he goes at the end of this year and Goddard becomes a regular.

That post just proves you have no idea chitywest

[creepypolar]

There is no doubt the club's recruitment deserves plenty of kudos for the recruitment since around Lyon's sacking. From players like Archer, Heyne and Cahill, we have clearly moved on. Clearly higher picks have helped tremendously but still, you have to pick them right. If only it were so easy...

Unfortunately, the hard slog starts now. While we seem to have a plethora of youngsters fighting for a spot in our AFL side, how many are out and out stars. A lot of you will say we need to give them game time before deciding and that is absolutely correct. However, priority must be given to those who actually have the potential to become elite. And that Sainters is the hard part. How many of our group can become A-graders? The risk here is that we may find oursevles with a list of foot soldiers and no out and out stars. This has been gnawing on me for a little while now and so I decided to do a quick comparison with the Bulldogs (partly because they are in a similar position to us and partly because I hate the club and their success recently has me weeping at night)

Sifting through the AFL's official player ratings an interesting picture emerges - one that can be looked at with worry or optimism.

PLAYERS RANKED 100 OR ABOVE

SAINTS (3) - Steven (55), Armo (70), Joey (78)
BULLDOGS (5) - Liberatore (12), Murphy (64), Minson (73), Dahlhaus (81), M.Boyd (89)

PLAYERS RANKED 100 TO 450

SAINTS (21) - Roo, Dempster, Savage, Ray, Geary, Newnes, Fisher, Roberton, Dunstan, Schnieder, Bruce, Shenton, Roos, Curren, Delaney, Weller, Webster, Longer, Saunders, Hickey, Billings
BULLDOGS (16) - Macrae, Crameri, Morris, Stringer, Roughead, Stevens, Picken, Wallis, Bont, Wood, Johaniseen, Hrovat, Dickson, Hunter, Smith, Goodes



What do you make of that? For me, its pretty cut and dried. Keeping in mind that the Bulldogs started their rebuild earlier than us, both clubs have approached this differently. They have drafted traditionally and have been rewarded with some exceptional kids who are ready to take the next step. However, our riskier approach of trading down one high pick for multiple lower ones have given us a stronger base. Now, this can easily backfire. Or not. Over the next year or so, the success of our rebuild will be based on whether these kids can elevate themeselves from "solid" to "excellent" to "elite". If these guys plateau, we are in a world of pain. Therein lies the risk of abandoning some high picks (admittedly not much recently). We gave ourselves multiple bites of the sweet apple that is the National Draft but also exposed ourselves to the higher chance of landing foot soldiers and nothing more. I, for one, will be on the lookout for signs this year that reveal whether or not we made the right move. For the sake my sanity (and yours) I hope we did.

[Freebird]

Delaney is not good enough. North let him go for a reason. I would say that he goes at the end of this year and Goddard becomes a regular.

I seeDelaney as our Shanahan. Pure stopper, nothing else.

Pure stopper? he plays 15 meters behind his opponent.

[Teflon]

we are on track for another #1 pick. I predicted 2 wins this year (probably a bit generous) but we will do well next year when the kids can run out a game.

yep and its number 1 we are after

lets not kid ourselves we need to rebuild A grade talent and the best chance u have is getting first pick.

few more years high picks and we'll be ok

some foot soldiers (Geary etc) will go over time - good honest players but not best 22 in Hawthorn and thats the benchmark

[saynta]

Delaney is not good enough. North let him go for a reason. I would say that he goes at the end of this year and Goddard becomes a regular.

I seeDelaney as our Shanahan. Pure stopper, nothing else.

Shanghan cost us a flag. IMHO.

[MC Gusto]

My view is any player picked in the draft or rookie draft has a shot of making it regardless of the number they are picked.
Whether they become A grade comes down to hard work, mental toughness, desire, leadership and coaching / mentoring...not the number they were picked and 'potential'

[saynta]

Delaney is not good enough. North let him go for a reason. I would say that he goes at the end of this year and Goddard becomes a regular.

That post just proves you have no idea chitywest

This time I agree with him.

[Scollop]

Delaney is not good enough. North let him go for a reason. I would say that he goes at the end of this year and Goddard becomes a regular.

That post just proves you have no idea chitywest

Maybe Delaney scores well in the best and fairest and is lauded by coaches and by his teammates but he's purely a stopper as mentioned by magnifisaint.

Hopefully Goddard will get some games this year and next year and be ready to step up by 2017. We need guys on all lines that can mark, have clean hands and can hit targets by foot if we are going to climb the ladder. Think Scarlett, McPharlin, Scott Thompson and to some extent Rance at Richmond. Chips has been the man for us who was able to do the job offensively as well as being a general of our backline but he won't be around when we are contenders again

[Heidelberg_Saint]

I had a discussion with a few mates this week about the core of developing teams in 2 years time , based on what they currently have. Basically how many holes will need filling and how many ?marks are there. GWS lead the discussions but risk of losing players exists. Bulldogs solid base and Essendon great spine. Melbourne like us , while Carlton in trouble and Collingwood and Richmond could tip either way. A lot based on speculation and development expectations obviously but we stack up ok i think:

B: Geary, Deleaney, Wright
HB:Savage, Goddard,Webster
C:Newness, Dunstan, Steven
HF: Billings, Bruce, Membery
F: Lonie, McCartin, Saad
Foll: Longer, Armitage, Weller
Int: Hickey, Ross, Roberton, Sinclair

Obviously over the next 2 years I expect us to have a couple more top 5 picks to slide in there.

Guys who have shown enough to be good or very good players:
Steven, Armitage, Savage, Deleaney, Newness, Dunstan,

Youngsters which have BIG upside either due to play so far or size meaning later development:
Goddard, Webster, Billings, Bruce, McCartin, Longer, Hickey, Lonie, Sinclair

Good hard workers which everyone needs :
Geary, Wright, Membery, Ross, Roberton, Weller,

Under threat by future picks:
Saad,

With others yet unseen , free agents and draft picks it has a great base for the future .
Thoughts

Good topic, and after today's disappointment, well there aint much else to discuss..

I've been thinking about the top pick already and I wouldn't disregard Jacob Weitering from Dandenong Stingrays. A talented full back and one that would strengthen our spine while we're getting access to the top picks.

[Con Gorozidis]

We will need a priority pick 1 (and 2).

[citywest]

I'll be the first to admit, I was gutted that we lost to Carlton. Especially after the great start we had. However we all knew that when this rebuild commenced (or at least some of us knew), it would take at least 5 years before we would come good again. The equation is simple, we need to keep our nerve (and endure the pain) for the next 3 seasons. Cast your minds back to the period between 2000 and 2003. We are basically in the middle of that cycle right now.

[older saint]

I'll be the first to admit, I was gutted that we lost to Carlton. Especially after the great start we had. However we all knew that when this rebuild commenced (or at least some of us knew), it would take at least 5 years before we would come good again. The equation is simple, we need to keep our nerve (and endure the pain) for the next 3 seasons. Cast your minds back to the period between 2000 and 2003. We are basically in the middle of that cycle right now.

Completely agree and with the advantage of Free agency too. I expect them to make a big play at a mid either this year or next - Shiels, Sloanne, type mid which automatically helps deepen the rotations on ball from the top end too. Expect to pick a pure mid next draft after getting Patty last year and Billings (swing mid/forward) last year.

Plenty of pain chiming but persistence is important to get guys up to 50-70 games experience