Round 3 Match Review

[mad saint guy]

Just got home from the game, which was overall incredibly disappointing after 3 quarter time, but it's the kind of performance we'll be seeing plenty of over the next two years.

First of all, the opening quarter was very good. Great work in the clearances and quick ball movement snagged us two more goals in the first quarter than we would kick for the rest of the match. We comfortably outplayed Collingwood in the first and should have gone into quarter time 2-3 goals up. But after that we saw the 2014 saints come back. I desperately hope that it truly was the consecutive six-day breaks, but we had absolutely no run going either way for the final three quarters. Our decision making was baffling and our execution was horrible, even from some of our 'elite' ball users in Newnes and Savage. I can't write this post without venting my frustrating at the incredible double standards shown by the umpires all night as well. Pendlebury was given seven free kicks for ducking into St Kilda players and all Cloke needs to do to get a free kick is fall over. Longer was also penalised three times for being stronger than Grundy in the ruck. With that said, the umpiring only would have added 3-4 goals to the final margin and we still would have been flogged if the umpiring was much better.

Positives

First quarter
Armo and Steven - absolutely outstanding but need support
Roberton - love his new-found aggression. Was one of the only saints still running hard at the end of the match
Bruce seems to have completely turned around his goalkicking. Has not looked like missing a set shot since his behind after the screamer in rd 1
Membrey tries his guts out and will make an excellent medium target. He is NOT, however, a tall forward and shouldn't be played as the third tall

Negatives

We were burnt by Collingwood on the spread badly and had no answer to their quick ball movement. Their mids would be streaming inside 50 while ours are plodding along 40m behind them
Lots of passengers
Paddy had an absolute shocker and should not have been picked. Tonight would have hurt his confidence and also his teammates' confidence in him. At the start of the game our players were looking for him, trying to get him involved. After numerous dropped marks, lost contests and shocking disposals it was clear that they were looking for other options up forward. He did make good position quite a few times but he clearly wasn't ready for an AFL game and a slippery Friday night at the G against Collingwood without Riewoldt was not the time for him to debut. In fact I think he probably needs to spend this year in the VFL getting his fitness up to scratch because he looked stuffed after the first 10 minutes. Poor decision from the coaches. I feel bad for the guy and by no means am I saying he's no good, but that was the worst debut I've seen in a long time. It was awfully reminiscent of Jack Watts' debut.
Schneider got plenty of the ball but used it poorly and can't run. Would much rather see Minchington get a crack. I understand that they wanted some experience in with no Joey or Roo, but once they're back Schneids should be out
Our best ball users: Savage, Newnes, Schneider and Billings butchered the ball all night. None of them had a disposal efficiency over 60%
Lonie's injury. Hope the kid is ok
Shenton had an absolute stinker and reverted back to his round one self. His game in round two was good but if he can't play at a decent level on a consistent basis then he doesn't have a spot in the team. He is very, very much like Raph Clarke; at his best an athletic defender with great spoiling and some dash, at his worst an absolute turnover merchant prone to inexplicable brain fades.
Newnes had a shocking game as well. I'm not convinced that he's suited to or ready for a permanent midfield spot. He is much more effective off half back with more time and space.

Pending VFL form, these are the changes I'd make for the Carlton game

Out: Lonie (inj), McCartin, Shenton, Schneider
In: Minchington, Riewoldt, Montagna, Hickey

B: Dempster, Delaney, Wright
HB: Savage, Fisher, Newnes
C: Roberton, Armitage, Montagna
HF: Billings, Riewoldt, Membrey
F: Saad, Bruce, Hickey

Foll: Longer, Steven, Weller
Int: Minchington, Dunstan, Geary, Sinclair (sub)

[Bluthy]

Rather than positives and negatives out of the game here are some ongoing issues for the club:

-- Jack Steven is great getting possessions around the ground and giving some dash but his stubby little legs really struggle to kick with penetration and accuracy. Its stopping him being elite.
-- Newnes decision making is a real issue - tonight he did a short pass to literally no one - he did a 20 metre kick to an open patch of ground - it was bizarre. He seems to lack footy intelligence despite him racking up the possessions
-- Weller shows his limitations as a midfielder - he is enthusiastic and hard at it but lacks that touch and sensitivity to know when to crack in and when to pull back a bit to not give away a free
-- Shenton, Geary and Delaney work hard, are tough but lack the good, flat, penetrating kicking to give real drive out of the back and switch play effectively.
-- YOu can see the work Billings has to do to be a midfielder. He did a lot of chinky little kicks like you would do on the forward line but they don't work so well when trying to link up play through the middle of the ground.
-- Longer started well in the ruck but dropped off. We need a lot of work with our rucks before they are big bodied A-grades able to give us first use and be a threat around the ground and up forward.

[Bluthy]

Paddy had an absolute shocker and should not have been picked. Tonight would have hurt his confidence and also his teammates' confidence in him. At the start of the game our players were looking for him, trying to get him involved. After numerous dropped marks, lost contests and shocking disposals it was clear that they were looking for other options up forward. He did make good position quite a few times but he clearly wasn't ready for an AFL game and a slippery Friday night at the G against Collingwood without Riewoldt was not the time for him to debut. In fact I think he probably needs to spend this year in the VFL getting his fitness up to scratch because he looked stuffed after the first 10 minutes. Poor decision from the coaches. I feel bad for the guy and by no means am I saying he's no good, but that was the worst debut I've seen in a long time. It was awfully reminiscent of Jack Watts' debut.

CAN PEOPLE SHUT THE f*** UP ABOUT "JACK WATTS DEBUT"!!!! I'M SICK TO DEATH OF HEARING THIS bulls*** ABOUT HIS DEBUT AND THIS SELF-PERPETUATING MYTH THAT KEEPS BEING PROPOGATED BY PARROTS. IT WAS ONE f****** GAME OF FOOTBALL FOR WATTS. HE HAD A BIT OF PHYSICAL WORK PUT INTO HIM BUT HE WASN'T KING HIT OR COAT HANGERED OR HAD RIBS BROKEN OR HIS HEAD CRACKED OPEN. IT IS THE BIGGEST LOAD OF s*** THAT HE WAS RUINED BY THIS GAME. IT WAS ONE f****** GAME. PLAY YOUR DEBUT AND THEN GET ON WITH BUILDING YOUR AFL CAREER - THATS HOW ITS BEEN FOR EVERY AFL PLAYER SINCE DAY ONE. ITS NOTHING BUT EXCUSES THAT HAVE BEEN LAYED OUT FOR WATTS FROM DAY ONE - SHOULDN'T HAVE BEEN DEBUTED IN THAT GAME, IN A s*** TEAM, NO LEADERS AT THE CLUB ETC. PADDY IS NO WUSS AND I THOUGHT DID WELL TONGIHT EXCEPT FOR THE DROPPED MARKS ON A SLIPPERY NIGHT. ENOUGH OF THE GODDAMN WATTS REFERENCES!!!!!!!!!!!!! IT HAS NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO RELEVANCE AT ALL, EVER. AND HAS NEVER HAD ANY TRUTH TO IT EXCEPT FOR THESE bulls*** PEOPLE WHO WANT TO BELIEVE ONE GAME MAKES THE WHOLE DIFFERNCE BECASUE THEY DON'T HAVE THE INTELLIGENCE AND PATIENCE TO SEE THE BIG PICTURE.

[RODOS]

Paddy had an absolute shocker and should not have been picked. Tonight would have hurt his confidence and also his teammates' confidence in him. At the start of the game our players were looking for him, trying to get him involved. After numerous dropped marks, lost contests and shocking disposals it was clear that they were looking for other options up forward. He did make good position quite a few times but he clearly wasn't ready for an AFL game and a slippery Friday night at the G against Collingwood without Riewoldt was not the time for him to debut. In fact I think he probably needs to spend this year in the VFL getting his fitness up to scratch because he looked stuffed after the first 10 minutes. Poor decision from the coaches. I feel bad for the guy and by no means am I saying he's no good, but that was the worst debut I've seen in a long time. It was awfully reminiscent of Jack Watts' debut.

CAN PEOPLE SHUT THE f*** UP ABOUT "JACK WATTS DEBUT"!!!! I'M SICK TO DEATH OF HEARING THIS bulls*** ABOUT HIS DEBUT AND THIS SELF-PERPETUATING MYTH THAT KEEPS BEING PROPOGATED BY PARROTS. IT WAS ONE f****** GAME OF FOOTBALL FOR WATTS. HE HAD A BIT OF PHYSICAL WORK PUT INTO HIM BUT HE WASN'T KING HIT OR COAT HANGERED OR HAD RIBS BROKEN OR HIS HEAD CRACKED OPEN. IT IS THE BIGGEST LOAD OF s*** THAT HE WAS RUINED BY THIS GAME. IT WAS ONE f****** GAME. PLAY YOUR DEBUT AND THEN GET ON WITH BUILDING YOUR AFL CAREER - THATS HOW ITS BEEN FOR EVERY AFL PLAYER SINCE DAY ONE. ITS NOTHING BUT EXCUSES THAT HAVE BEEN LAYED OUT FOR WATTS FROM DAY ONE - SHOULDN'T HAVE BEEN DEBUTED IN THAT GAME, IN A s*** TEAM, NO LEADERS AT THE CLUB ETC. PADDY IS NO WUSS AND I THOUGHT DID WELL TONGIHT EXCEPT FOR THE DROPPED MARKS ON A SLIPPERY NIGHT. ENOUGH OF THE GODDAMN WATTS REFERENCES!!!!!!!!!!!!! IT HAS NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO RELEVANCE AT ALL, EVER. AND HAS NEVER HAD ANY TRUTH TO IT EXCEPT FOR THESE bulls*** PEOPLE WHO WANT TO BELIEVE ONE GAME MAKES THE WHOLE DIFFERNCE BECASUE THEY DON'T HAVE THE INTELLIGENCE AND PATIENCE TO SEE THE BIG PICTURE.

Logged in to say here ye here ye, this man speaks the truth! (or woman)

Rahul on bigfooty posted a list of keyforwards and their first game stats. Paddy was on the better end. If that first game did really get to watts, it's because watts is a weakminded butterfly. Paddy got a game under his belt and he will be better for it. We may need him again next week. He provides more of an honest contest (second and third efforts) than S P White does (though there is still a spot for white in my team, just not in the spine, forward pocket/membrey type, if he can be bothered putting on some pressure that is)

[elizabethr]

Armitage is clearly the best playerbon our list and therefore needs to be wrapped up contractually until he retires...

[elizabethr]

Armitage is clearly the best playerbon our list and therefore needs to be wrapped up contractually until he retires...

[saintsRrising]

While Paddy had a fit of the fumbles, he moved to all the right spots and had pretty good timing.

That first little tap on he did as a second effort was brilliant, and shows that he is a smart player.

His last quarter was much better and a sign that his nerves were easing.

Also do not forget that he was not expecting to play. so mentally would not have been prepared.

He will be OK....

[St Ick]

Well that was an intense little rant wasn't it. Love the passion, but when the coach comes out and says he probably wasn't ready then posters probably have the right to say it too.

I don't think anyone in their right mind is saying he will become like Jack Watts, or plays like Jack Watts or tonight played like Jack Watts. The only comparison others make is that Jack Watts debuted before he was ready and supporters had unrealistic expectations of a pick one.

So yes, Paddy wasn't ready, and debuted in less than ideal circumstances. Let's move on from the whole Jack Watts thing before Bluthy pops a blood vessel.

[RODOS]

i dunno, bluthy is pretty fun when he's fired up

[oh when the]

I liked what Dermie said, our back men running out look up to see Roo and he was not there.

[cwrcyn]

By 10 minutes into the 2nd quarter we looked knackered. A lot of guys with heavy legs. The fumbling was the worst, and it threw everything out of whack. Guys would make position to receive a handball, and then the player trying to pick up the ball would either fumble or put the handball 3 to five meters away from where it should have landed. After about half an hour of that, our guys running in support were hedging their bets, thinking "Do I run to position or do I hang back and wait to make sure my team mate doesn't stuff it up?"
After that it all just falls apart.

Huge effort last week, and a lot of very young players. For large periods of the game we had a forward line with one first gamer, two third gamers, one fourth gamer a 27 gamer (who's only played about 7 games as a forward) and a 30 gamer.


Actually, we went into the game these players who'd played 50 games or less

McCartin 0
Lonie 2
Sinclair 2
Membrey 3
Shenton 17
Wright 17
Billings 18
Dunstan 19
Bruce 27
Longer 28
Saad 30
Newnes 49
Delaney 50
Weller 50

That's two thirds of the team.

[Junior]

I guess that people forget Riewoldt's debut it was shocking, he hardly got a touch struggled with the pace of the game and looked fragile.

Negatives on Paddy on the night, dropped marks he should have held and turned over the ball a bit which I believe was because he was trying to be too team orientated. Watched him at Sandy last week and he is the most unselfish full forward I have ever seen.

Positives found the position to get to too mark the ball, so he reads he game well. Despite him looking knackered had either the fitness or mental capacity to get more possessions in the last than the previous three quarters. The pace may have gone out of the game but you still need to be able yo get to the ball to get it.

Hard gig, played in a deplorable team on a wet night and with limited notice.

[Junction Oval]

After a great first quarter, everything broke down. The Pies closed us down and increased their intensity. We started to make bad skill errors, our system started to collapse. We couldn't re-group and no-one stood up.

With a young side, unfortunately, expect this to re-occur. Consistency comes with maturity.

Felt sorry for Paddy - late notice, slippery conditions. He moves well and will get "much better." Will be great for the Club.

[Dr Spaceman]

I guess that people forget Riewoldt's debut it was shocking, he hardly got a touch struggled with the pace of the game and looked fragile.

Negatives on Paddy on the night, dropped marks he should have held and turned over the ball a bit which I believe was because he was trying to be too team orientated. Watched him at Sandy last week and he is the most unselfish full forward I have ever seen.

Positives found the position to get to too mark the ball, so he reads he game well. Despite him looking knackered had either the fitness or mental capacity to get more possessions in the last than the previous three quarters. The pace may have gone out of the game but you still need to be able yo get to the ball to get it.

Hard gig, played in a deplorable team on a wet night and with limited notice.

I was more than happy with what I saw on debut.

Should be a really good/great player for us over a long period of time

[luc1966]

One thing that was frustrating was watching Williams giving Lonie a few cheap ones.

[realdeal]

Taking into consideration the weather, two 6 day breaks, young and slight bodies. Did we pick the right team for last night?

I think Wright should've started the match instead of being sub. Lonie probably could've been left out for Curren who can go through the midfield and is a stronger body, should paddy have played? If not, then who comes in.

Not saying the result would've been different but it's worth looking at.

Maybe having 3 different umpires could've help too.. . I was at the game (then the pub) so didn't watch the tv coverage, did Richo or the commentators mention the umpiring at all? Cheers..

[saintspremiers]

msg please edit your post.

You said Schneider out. That is possibly the craziest thing I've read all year.

[freely]

On the plus - i reckon sinclair's a player. 3rd game and nothing of him but he's hard at it, smart decisions, clean hands, takes responsibility. Lot to like!

[wolfpup]

Well that was disappointing.

Collingwood played very well (they did rely on their more experienced, older players like Cloke, Swan, Pendlebury to fire up their team).

Perhaps the conditions didnt suit us but what was really disappointing with the last quarter in particular where we seemed to be exhausted. Sadly our turnovers didnt help much at all (i counted 2 pies goals from turnovers in the 1st quarter alone, lets not talk about the elliot non mark as well...) although collingwood pressure was high. I am not sure having Roo or Joey in the side would have mattered much perhaps it may have been closer.

Watching the game from the stands it just seemed that as soon as our midfield was blanketed, there was nothing we could do, even with Longer playing well. Pies were ferocious against our team, Lonie for some reason was getting plenty of attention. I felt our defense did ok considering the amount of forward entries.

I just hope our young players have learnt something about playing against a tenacious opponent and playing on the expanses of the MCG. I would think that a fit and firing Acres, Murdoch, Webster can make a bit of a difference, but appears we need an elite mid from the draft or free agency.

Collingwood are a team sitting between 10th to 16th, they are going no where this year or the next few years. I thought we could match them, or get close, even without Roo.

We need to bring a much better performance if we hope to match Carlton and break our duck in Wellington.

[dsav]

Photo album here if you didn't see it in the match thread.
http://www.davesavell.com/p176308725

Dave
@SavellDave

[samuraisaint]

More to the point - when we are getting touched up, why don't the coaching panel swing some moves? Crazy idea I know, but it just might work.

[Jacks Back]

More to the point - when we are getting touched up, why don't the coaching panel swing some moves? Crazy idea I know, but it just might work.

I thought they may have thrown Paddy into the ruck for 5 minutes to get him into the game when Longer was on a break.

[3rd generation saint]

There was good and bad last night. But one thing no one has mentioned is how much playing in the humidity last week with only a 6 day break may have affected us.
Don't think it's a coincidence that Collingwood were real flat last week after playing Brisbane in similar conditions the week before.
We also missed Roo as a link player through the middle.
The good news is that we have shown we can play good footy, the bad thing, we are a young side and there will be inconsistencies to come.

[3rd generation saint]

There was good and bad last night. But one thing no one has mentioned is how much playing in the humidity last week with only a 6 day break may have affected us.
Don't think it's a coincidence that Collingwood were real flat last week after playing Brisbane in similar conditions the week before.
We also missed Roo as a link player through the middle.
The good news is that we have shown we can play good footy, the bad thing, we are a young side and there will be inconsistencies to come.

[WinnersOnly]

Agree with above opinions.

What really upsets me is supporters getting into Paddy. He is an 18 y/o kid playing his first game in wet conditions. He lead well early and created space as did Bruce but it was like our players were told to ignore them. Our decision making was deplorable after the first quarter.

For me 90% of our ball use issue is our lack of ability to handle any opposition pressure what so ever. Following that came our inability to spread (run), that and we are very fragile mentally. Our belief is paper thin and when opposition like Collingwood did last night pressure our blokes they lose belief.

I agree with others regarding our Richo's lack of flexibility is his match day coaching.
We were getting smashed by Collingwoods bigger mids why not try Dempster or Membrey in the middle.
We have far too many small forwards who cant take a contested or overhead mark. Play Membrey as a flanker and play a third tall in McCartin or Lee.

Also agree re Schneider he got plenty of the ball but is not up playing as a changing mid. He is too small soft and has his lost his edge with speed accordingly he didnt impact contests at all.

The other thing that bothered me was how many tackles we fell off. Collingwood basically bullied us all night and not one of our blokes fired a shot. Very disappointing and inept performance all round!