Some Perspective

[sainter#4]

guys don't think tony was saying we are picking the games we give maximum effort too. He was pretty much saying after a few games the likes of sinclair bruce lonie etc would have had a bit of analysis done to them, we wont be a surprise for the opposition. Also i too think next week is a much more winnable match - maybe that's the game you see joey return from injury etc i actually think we will lose by 5 goals on friday - purely because a) the boys wont be able to back up week in week out and B) just dont think we bat deep enough in midfield to stay in the contest against more mature sides long enough.

also possibility we might see a rotation on the younger guys this week. im sure some are sore and last thing we want is to carry a young bloke when he isn't right.

[Trev from the Bush]

Amazing amount of suspicion seeing many didn't rate us a chance against Gold Coast. We'll be competitive but Friday Night Pies at the MCG is a tall order.

[Sobraz]

Quite a few people really gone off the deep end in this thread. Tanking, underperforming, deliberately losing or holding back?! Ridiculous assertions from what was mentioned in the op.

Thanks for the update Tony, and sensibly curbing expectations a little. We all can get a little ahead of ourselves.

Reckon we have a 30% chance this week. In any case, plenty to be excited about!

[desertsaint]

look, i'm happy enough with a win every second game. win - rest - win - rest, etc.

I want effort every game and to go down fighting. If not I won't attend games if they are telling people around the club they are choosing when to put in extra effort. Pathetic. Has completely ruined my expectations of any future we were heading towards. We are losers and have a poor mentality. I will have to try to enjoy the soccer finals now. We will complain we can't attract FAs like there is a mystery to why we are unattractive.

actually want a decent draft so i'll amend that to win - rest - rest - rest - rest - rest - win. mix it up so we win against freo would be nice - i'll email the club my preferences. oh, and i think you misread Tony's intent, and mine by the way.

[Austinnn]

We should be trying our arses off while we have a reasonably fit team an are up against the beatable teams. We will still struggle for more than 6 wins or so as the kids tire. Tony has said a few thing to suggest we have decided to go for picks in other posts. He is also apparently an employee or very close to one. If we are deliberately losing games or even holding back I'm not happy.

I agree with most of what you said in this post, although I think you are jumping the gun suggesting that we are tanking. However, if you are right then I totally agree; despite the logic of it, I will never support a club that deliberately tries to lose, or impedes their chances of winning in order to get picks. If that's what we're about then you can chuck my support in the bin where it belongs. If we win over 5 games and end up with pick 4 instead of pick 1 in the 2015 draft, I will be rapt. I think the club will be rapt too. Chris Pelchen's replacement, perhaps less so, but another wooden spoon is less favourable, no matter how great the pick of the draft will be.

You are implying that we are deciding when to put in 110% and implying that knowing we have less of a chance means that we won't do everything we can to win. I don't think Richo is that stupid, I don't think the players would stand for that either. I don't think anyone is saying "ok, The Pies meh, but we absolutely cannot lose against Carlton", I think it's more a question of trying to establish NZ as a successful base. Our Tassie adventure got aborted because Thommo reckoned it was a graveyard, the last thing we want is for that mentality to get into the trips to Wellington. We've got a whole bunch of new members and sponsors based on the NZ move and they are less dyed in the wool, that support needs immediate strengthening. We will still be trying our best to beat the Pies, claim another scalp in front of David King and Dermott Brereton and all the experts who have us in marker pen at 18th on the ladder already. I reckon we'll see a red hot contest on Friday night and we have some fierce warriors on that team who will demand all in.

Can you imagine Roo, Mav, Dunstan, Wright, those kinds of guys sitting around the locker rooms after the game saying "we may not have won but we'll be alright in a few years"?

You could argue that our decision to back our youth over our more established players is a version of tanking, but I don't really think you'll get anywhere with that arguement. Milney, Kosi, Blakey, Brendon Goddard, Nick Dal Santo, Ben McEvoy, Clint Jones, James Gwilt, Adam Schneider, those are about the only established 'vet' style players who we've shunted for youth.

Milney: every dog has its day. The trial didn't help.
Kosi: inconsistent and not really much more to offer than less established team mates, unfortunately.
Blakey: he was cooked.
BJ wanted to go, for whatever reason. We could have busted a nut to keep him, but folks on the forums have said we couldn't have done it with our pay structure, and there is nothing more real than economics.
Dal and Big Boy - you might have a case that we could have held onto those guys and would have won a few more games, but we traded Dal and pick 41 (used by the Cats to draft Jake Kolodjashnij) to get Longer and Bruce, (and perhaps also greased the wheels for the trade for Luke Delaney for Pick 77 in the draft, which the Kangas didn't even use and somehow got to the Pies, who ended up using it on Jon Marsh), and as everybody knows we got Dunstan and Savage for BigBoy. So to recap:

OUT:
Dal
BigBoy
Jake Kolodjashnij (or whoever was left at pick 41, 2013 Nat Draft)
Jon Marsh (or whoever was left at pick 77, 2013 Nat Draft)

IN:
Josh Bruce
Billy Longer
Luke Delaney
Luke Dunstan
Shane Savage

Is that "tanking"? For some, I suppose it is; getting rid of one elite game breaker and one good KPP now for speculative replacements. Still no guarantees about any of the players on the IN list. I don't think it is. I think that is pruning. If we'd phased out all our stars you might have a case. But we kept Armo, Steven, Roo, Monty. Players that won't see an AFL premiership probably. If we'd gone down the Citywest path to success, I'd say you might be tanking. But no.

As far as Clint and Jimmy go, no offence but they were giving us less and less and when players like that are carrying your team, you'll not get far. I don't consider letting them go to be tanking. More like mercy.

Adam Schneider still plays for us, his current status befitting his output in recent years.

Let's look at the coaching. Again we could have moved heaven and earth to retain Lyon, for better or worse. The guy who proclaimed to have witnessed "The End of An Era". Remember his final game for us?

We could have also not let senior players drive out his replacement, who had an attractive gameplan.

The worst you can say about the first decision is that was a lack of competence/money which caused it, rather than a cunning plan to turn our team into a crack losing outfit, and I feel that Watters was shut out due to his personality, but if he'd got better results I'm sure players would have pulled their heads in or left or whatever.

Richardson was hired on the back of his rep with development as opposed to winning games, rather than his rival candidate Choco Williams. Time will tell whether that was a good move. The vibe I've been getting of these boards for the last 12 or so months, with our list we could have hired the ghost of Jock McHale and still not made the top 10.

But yes, we could have hired an old pro with the remit of doing whatever it takes to make finals. We could have kept all those experienced 2nd tier footsoldiers and past prime stars. We would have prolonged our plummet to the bottom. Topped up with a few mid range draft picks. We will never know how that path would have led, though I can guess...

The coaching is the biggest indicator of tanking, and I just don't see it. Maybe I'm naive. I will admit to not being convinced by the current coaching team, but I don't think they are tanking. I don't think they are bad, let's just say the jury is out. That's fine, it's year 2 for them. I expect them to improve, just as I expect the team to improve. Not hope, expect.

[tony74]

guys don't think tony was saying we are picking the games we give maximum effort too. He was pretty much saying after a few games the likes of sinclair bruce lonie etc would have had a bit of analysis done to them, we wont be a surprise for the opposition. Also i too think next week is a much more winnable match - maybe that's the game you see joey return from injury etc i actually think we will lose by 5 goals on friday - purely because a) the boys wont be able to back up week in week out and B) just dont think we bat deep enough in midfield to stay in the contest against more mature sides long enough.

also possibility we might see a rotation on the younger guys this week. im sure some are sore and last thing we want is to carry a young bloke when he isn't right.

Got it perfectly. Honestly do you think the club would not give 100% on Friday night with the audience it will have. They will go hell for leather. I was just trying to offer a little perspective. Would I have got this response if I had said the club won't win every game left in the season? I don't think so ( even though it could be classed as picking and choosing wins!) Obviously Friday night is very important but in the scheme of things so is the NZ game.
Just might have to choose my words a little more carefully!!

[cwrcyn]

WE could have hired Mick Malthouse as coach. Bottom line is that you have to make big decisions in relation to list management, and no matter who is coaching, if you don't have the right blend of players and sufficient talent, it just ain't gonna work.

Malthouse is now facing the grim reality of he and Carlton overestimating the quality of the playing group when he took over as coach. Geelong's current best team has 8 players over the age of 30 who are all the biggest driving force of the team (outside of Selwood). Their turn is coming, and pretty fast. You can only push the same barrow for so long. We bit the bullet and are taking our medicine. In the early 90s under Ken Shelodon, with a talented list with a few holes, we topped up with older players from other clubs, and it set us back a few years. Then Lockett moved on and we got some kids in and it turned around. In the late 2000s we repeated the same strategy of the Sheldon era under Ross Lyon and ended up with the same outcome. Now we have moved on a few senior players and are repeating the strategy of the mid 90s.

Ad in relation to recruiting players from other clubs, Grant Thomas had the right philosophy. If they can't give you at least 100 games, don't recruit them.

[bigcarl]

Makes sense to bring a little perspective to things for supporters and I assume, Tony, that the same message has been given to the players.

Gold Coast really were very disappointing. Soft and weak. Christ, they were spanked by Melbourne the previous week. Collingwood at home and on the rebound are a different kettle of fish.

We're not without a chance. We have some extremely promising kids and the new look forward set up with Riewoldt roaming well up the ground gives us another dimension. Of course they'll give it 100 per cent

[seano1]

deep down we know we aren`t going to win every game......but to see them fight it out is pleasing to watch , cant stand it when teams just roll over...and the kids are learning to play with the big boys which takes time

[Jacks Back]

I think tony74 is saying we are keeping a lid on it and were staying in the bubble.

[saintspremiers]

tony you've said everything perfectly. It's not your fault some don't get it.

Realistically it's bloody hard for us to beat the Pies AND Carlscum.

Strategically, the Carlton game is WAY more important to win. We have an annual bribe of half a mill to play there
and need the Kiwi dollar.

Play to win on Friday - of course - but build the team up for an even bigger crack in Welly after an 8 day break makes sense.

Formunites - tony is often about the big picture, not day to day/ week to week stuff, as is AR

[The Redeemer]

The boys were fantastic on Saturday night. The effort and implementation of the planning put in by the coaching panel was first rate. We have every reason to be optimistic of the future. But let's look at a bit of reality here. The pressure Gold Coast put on us was abysmal. This helped us hit targets with less pressure being put on us. I'm not trying to be the party pooper here but we are going to get a lot more pressure on Friday night. The opposition will now have had a game or two to work out the positives and negatives of Bruce up forward, of Lonie and Sinclair etc.
The effort will be there, just don't expect too much.
P.S. The NZ game is very important to us.

3-1 mate. The Saints go marching in

[Bunk_Moreland]

Collingwood surely wont be as pathetic as the Suns were and coming off a loss against Adelaide and with Essendon the following week they will be pretty desperate to get the win

Looks like it could be great game if we bring the same energy and intensity that said it wont be easy coming back from an interstate trip and off a 6 day break

consecutive 6 day breaks (including Qld trip)

will be very tough this week.

This.

We looked totally spent coming in to three quarter time last Saturday. Consecutive 6 game breaks coming back from interstate will cook the team.

This is the reality and what the OP was driving at.

If we manage a win it will be a HUGE step forward and I thin we will all have to re assess where the team is currently at.

It will be absolutely unexpected especially with the obstacles in front of us re preparation.

Talking of tanking and not trying is simply silly.

[matrix]

Lol
I'll organize a scarf burning if we lose.

Lol at trying not to win
Fri night
Pies
You reckon the boys are gonna go in with a half assed approach?

I think not.

[Bunk_Moreland]

Lol
I'll organize a scarf burning if we lose.

Lol at trying not to win
Fri night
Pies
You reckon the boys are gonna go in with a half assed approach?

I think not.

they will give it what they have matrix, don't know if that will be good enough though.

Hope so. If we get the same pressure on the ball carrier as last week who knows.

[st.byron]

Quite a few people really gone off the deep end in this thread. Tanking, underperforming, deliberately losing or holding back?! Ridiculous assertions from what was mentioned in the op.

Thanks for the update Tony, and sensibly curbing expectations a little. We all can get a little ahead of ourselves.

Reckon we have a 30% chance this week. In any case, plenty to be excited about!

Agree with you Sobraz. Some substantial over-reactions from otherwise sensible posters. Don't think there's anything in the OP that suggests we wont be trying our arses off on Friday night. I think Tony was just pointing out that GC were pretty abysmal pressure wise and that probably wont be the case on Friday night.
I also agree with others here suggesting that the coaching staff would be regarding some games as more winnable than others. That doesn't equate to less effort, it's just being realistic. i.e This Friday there will be more pressure, we're on consecutive six day breaks and off a travel with a lot of still developing bodies, so the expectations may be lower.
Appreciate your insights and info Tony. Keep it coming.

[Linton Lodger]

Absolute bollocks to NZ. I fail to see how beating that rabble Carlton in NZ is preferable to rolling the filth on the MCG on a Friday night.

The NZ experiment will not be successful, the crowds have not been there for the first 2 games and they won't be magically increasing. I appreciate that the NZ games are financially necessary at the moment, largely due to the previous Administration's lack of forward planning and competence, but its an initiative we want to ditch when we become successful again.

We need to do it because of the disgraceful stadium deal meted out to us. I'd prefer the Club to take a hard line on the stadium deal issue. Essendon, the A League and probably Big Bash (not to mention random concerts) have a far better deal than us. Any Commercial Lawyers out there? If so, is this an issue of equity?

[longtimesaint]

Absolute bollocks to NZ. I fail to see how beating that rabble Carlton in NZ is preferable to rolling the filth on the MCG on a Friday night.

The NZ experiment will not be successful, the crowds have not been there for the first 2 games and they won't be magically increasing. I appreciate that the NZ games are financially necessary at the moment, largely due to the previous Administration's lack of forward planning and competence, but its an initiative we want to ditch when we become successful again.

We need to do it because of the disgraceful stadium deal meted out to us. I'd prefer the Club to take a hard line on the stadium deal issue. Essendon, the A League and probably Big Bash (not to mention random concerts) have a far better deal than us. Any Commercial Lawyers out there? If so, is this an issue of equity?

We ditched Tasmania and watched the hawks go from strength to strength there.
We can win over NZ but we need to start to perform there.
The locals need a team to get excited about.

[Junction Oval]

As I said earlier, it's amazing what "adrenalin & enthusiasm" can do for a young team. Add playing on the MCG and one never knows. Two 6-day breaks will not help.

It's just nice to go to the footy with some expectation of a good competitive effort. Whether we win, is not so important at this point in time.

Tony74 is a realist. Most of us are supporters, so back the effort and live with whatever the end result is - just don't put your house on a win.

[Moods]

Geez, I'll cut the boys a little slack this week because of the 6 day breaks, but only a little. I want to see intensity EVERY week. If that equates to winning, great! But if I turn up and see a half arsed effort I won't be happy. I'm certainly realistic enough to not expect us to win most weeks, but the boys set themselves a standard last week, and I expect them to keep at that level - I don't reckon that's unrealistic.

Why are some talking the pies up so much? They have an average team with 2 quality mids and one quality fwd - other than that they haven't got a lot going for them. Their backline is woeful. We are a real chance, especially if Pendlebury is under a cloud. Hopefully Joey and Schneids come in if a couple are a little sore and we keep this momentum going.

The 6 day break theory was largely debunked last year by many teams. I don't want us using excuses before the game has even started. Sets the wrong tone.

Hell, this is a supporters forum. If we can't get ahead of ourselves and get excited during the week then who can? Hope is all we have...

[The Fireman]

If we were to beat the skunks this week and forced the sacking of fig my liqueur cabinet will get emptied.

Hope is a marvelous thing but reality is the leveler.. will be happy to see the boys mirror their performance of last game.

[Moods]

Hope is a marvelous thing but reality is the leveler.. will be happy to see the boys mirror their performance of last game.

Exactly. that's all we're asking. If the opposition are too good, then most of us can accept that.

[gringo]

If we were to beat the skunks this week and forced the sacking of fig my liqueur cabinet will get emptied.

Hope is a marvelous thing but reality is the leveler.. will be happy to see the boys mirror their performance of last game.

I have no problem if we go down fighting by 10 goals if they were the better team. What I can't handle is deliberate lack of effort. We weren't better off getting Billings over the Dogs who won a few more matches in the end and got Bontempelli, I'm not sure if many number 1 picks turn out any better than the other top 5 picks either. Tony has mentioned a few times words to the effect of us not really wanting to do well this year. Have some pride Saints, play hard and get free agents lining up not accept mediocrity in the hope of getting a priority pick. Plenty of coaches say it's very hard to come out of a losing culture.

[dragit]

Let's be honest, Gold Coast were a complete rabble, their pressure on the ball carrier was Melbourne-like crica 2010-2013.

[stevie]

The 6 day break after the Giants didn't affect us in the second qtr. Sure, the Suns came home with a wet sail but any team that had been applying the manic pressure we had would've tired even with an 8 day break.

I see no reason why we can't win Friday night. It might not be the 50-50 game the Suns was pre game - mayb 60-40 Pies - but, gee, momentum can be a great thing. Pies are a shadow of the side of 2010/11 - as are we lol. And don't forget we have about a weeks break before the Scum game though I guess the boys will be in NZ early.

Am not working Friday night for extra rest before I fly out to Turkey Sat nite. Game is on live here and I will be cheering the boys on. Then on Anzac Day I will be checking scores at Gallipoli, prolly just before the dawn service.