Chris Pelchen - The aftermath

[Wayne42]

Forget your crap about the PSD because it is crap.

Hi Mods, we need 'bookmark' function please.

we need a "conned" function as well, just to help the gullible.

They are so many that get conned, amazing really..

[resaintlee]

The Advertisement for the General Manager - Football Performance is on page 8 of today's Age.

The position requires strategic leadership across the football department's coaching and analysis, sports science and conditioning, player development and welfare, medical and administration areas.

Reporting to the CEO, the position is to develop a high performance environment which will ensure our young players develop into a hardened, skilled and tenacious team capable of challenging the best teams on the biggest stage.

I would suppose it is advertised like this as applicants may come from any of a number of different sports. It is certainly a big role and different to the one Chris Pelchin held.

[saintsRrising]

..Pick 36 in 2001. It was 2005 when he started to hit his straps...

Sam Mitchell received 9 Brownlow votes in 2003.

See below..as I said that it was 2005 that he started to hit his straps.

Disposals he roughly doubled from 2006 on. Brownlow votes went up. All measures went up.

Career Season Totals
Year Team Games Kicks Handballs Disposals Marks Goals Behinds Tackles Hitouts Frees For Frees Ag. Brownlow
2014 Hawthorn 16 228 221 449 78 3 3 55 4 26 18 8
2013 Hawthorn 24 371 302 673 83 5 5 78 3 26 25 16
2012 Hawthorn 24 345 308 653 84 7 7 133 2 38 37 26
2011 Hawthorn 23 404 297 701 94 12 8 99 2 41 34 30
2010 Hawthorn 19 282 242 524 76 5 4 90 1 33 26 15
2009 Hawthorn 22 346 308 654 111 7 3 66 1 30 26 13
2008 Hawthorn 24 313 354 667 90 4 2 88 2 36 40 15
2007 Hawthorn 23 262 331 593 120 2 3 96 0 32 34 21
2006 Hawthorn 22 327 265 592 119 3 6 71 0 32 34 13
2005 Hawthorn 14 186 157 343 62 2 4 49 0 24 23 9
2004 Hawthorn 20 210 162 372 47 5 5 60 1 28 20 2
2003 Hawthorn 21 199 174 373 54 5 2 89 3 20 23 9
2002 Hawthorn 9 53 48 101 19 1 1 29 1 4 7 1
Career 261 3526 3169 6695 1037 61 53 1003 20 370 347 178

[saintsRrising]

No way on earth we would have knocked back 6 + Treloar.
I just cannot believe that. Treloar is a proven young gun. Then wed get 6 for free.

I think it is bull* t too but here's a quote from a Collingwood supporter on big footy a few days ago along the same lines.

---------------------------------------
12Kilos bigfooty

hi saints fans take the following as`rumors, have a lot of saints mates in the know. Heard the reason Pelchen quit was due to the trade period he got undercut by Baines and Finnis in 2 trades he had completed . but the other 2 put a stop to it.

1. Cut a deal to give your pick 1 to gws for 4 possibly 6 not sure and Traloer. Which was stopped.
2. Armitage to tigers for pick 12 was stopped.

Again take it as rumors heard it from saints mate's who have been right in the past, did not hear either of the 2 trades anywhere else.
------------------------------------

Did not hear about the Armitage trade. Just passing on what I have been told.

Finnis strikes me as logical, well thought out guy that does things in a considered manner.

OPTION A

Yet according to your Collingwood source he instead cracks it at the end of draft week and instantly reinvents Pelchens Job (ie as per todays Job Ad in The Age)....and indeed much of the football department all based on some trades that were stopped.

OPTION B

That Finnis is actually not that impulsive and instead has been reviewing and planning for a while what his vision of the Football Department should be.

This included:
>A new Head of Coaching = Beveridge
> A redfined Head of Football Role less focussed on list management and more on development/performance

He also waits till the trade period is over as that is when Pelchen is most useful.

If you are right and it is OPTION A, then we are doomed as we have impulsive loose cannon at the helm.....and not to mention a week willed Board that must have rubber stamped such a quick decision

If it is OPTION B, then I would feel quite confident that we havea good CEO that is taking the club forward in a well thought out, planned way that is constantly seeking to do things better, with an eye on the budget as well.

[stinger]

I think it is bull* t too but here's a quote from a Collingwood supporter on big footy a few days ago along the same lines.
---------------------------------------
12Kilos bigfooty

hi saints fans take the following as`rumors, have a lot of saints mates in the know. Heard the reason Pelchen quit was due to the trade period he got undercut by Baines and Finnis in 2 trades he had completed . but the other 2 put a stop to it.

1. Cut a deal to give your pick 1 to gws for 4 possibly 6 not sure and Traloer. Which was stopped.
2. Armitage to tigers for pick 12 was stopped.

Again take it as rumors heard it from saints mate's who have been right in the past, did not hear either of the 2 trades anywhere else.
------------------------------------

Did not hear about the Armitage trade. Just passing on what I have been told.

If that rumour is true, then I'm feeling very confident re our (remaining) recruiting/list management people.


I would not have done either of those deals!

We can get a Treloer type (I note that Jerry still hasn't extended is contract with the Wogans) in the PSD in 2015, and then we'll have said player, and... Petracccc-aarrrrrh!!!

We have a plan. We are sticking to it. Patience is the key.

well dave , take it from me that the rubbish from big footy...is just that....rubbish....wouldn't have been surprised if the clown had tried to trade armo as he has form and the tigers did think we were mugs enough to do it....but it just didn't happen.....armo was never on the trade table....

[stinger]

Forget your crap about the PSD because it is crap.

Hi Mods, we need 'bookmark' function please.

[evo]

I think it is bull* t too but here's a quote from a Collingwood supporter on big footy a few days ago along the same lines.
---------------------------------------
12Kilos bigfooty

hi saints fans take the following as`rumors, have a lot of saints mates in the know. Heard the reason Pelchen quit was due to the trade period he got undercut by Baines and Finnis in 2 trades he had completed . but the other 2 put a stop to it.

1. Cut a deal to give your pick 1 to gws for 4 possibly 6 not sure and Traloer. Which was stopped.
2. Armitage to tigers for pick 12 was stopped.

Again take it as rumors heard it from saints mate's who have been right in the past, did not hear either of the 2 trades anywhere else.
------------------------------------

Did not hear about the Armitage trade. Just passing on what I have been told.

If that rumour is true, then I'm feeling very confident re our (remaining) recruiting/list management people.


I would not have done either of those deals!

We can get a Treloer type (I note that Jerry still hasn't extended is contract with the Wogans) in the PSD in 2015, and then we'll have said player, and... Petracccc-aarrrrrh!!!

We have a plan. We are sticking to it. Patience is the key.

well dave , take it from me that the rubbish from big footy...is just that....rubbish....wouldn't have been surprised if the clown had tried to trade armo as he has form and the tigers did think we were mugs enough to do it....but it just didn't happen.....armo was never on the trade table....

I did not say I believed any of this, I just heard this from a few sources. so maybe there was a smidgeon of truth in some of it. On the subject of the PSD, I can not see any out of contract stars ending up there. They will land at their club of choice (a top 6 club vying for the flag) by negotiation IMO

[stinger]

I think it is bull* t too but here's a quote from a Collingwood supporter on big footy a few days ago along the same lines.
---------------------------------------
12Kilos bigfooty

hi saints fans take the following as`rumors, have a lot of saints mates in the know. Heard the reason Pelchen quit was due to the trade period he got undercut by Baines and Finnis in 2 trades he had completed . but the other 2 put a stop to it.

1. Cut a deal to give your pick 1 to gws for 4 possibly 6 not sure and Traloer. Which was stopped.
2. Armitage to tigers for pick 12 was stopped.

Again take it as rumors heard it from saints mate's who have been right in the past, did not hear either of the 2 trades anywhere else.
------------------------------------

Did not hear about the Armitage trade. Just passing on what I have been told.

If that rumour is true, then I'm feeling very confident re our (remaining) recruiting/list management people.


I would not have done either of those deals!

We can get a Treloer type (I note that Jerry still hasn't extended is contract with the Wogans) in the PSD in 2015, and then we'll have said player, and... Petracccc-aarrrrrh!!!

We have a plan. We are sticking to it. Patience is the key.

well dave , take it from me that the rubbish from big footy...is just that....rubbish....wouldn't have been surprised if the clown had tried to trade armo as he has form and the tigers did think we were mugs enough to do it....but it just didn't happen.....armo was never on the trade table....

I did not say I believed any of this, I just heard this from a few sources. so maybe there was a smidgeon of truth in some of it. On the subject of the PSD, I can not see any out of contract stars ending up there. They will land at their club of choice (a top 6 club vying for the flag) by negotiation IMO

no truth in it all all.......simply a power struggle....bird brain wanted more....the board showed him the door.....pelchan had a minor role in recruitment.....others made/make the big calls

[groupie1]

Let's be positive about the Pelchen INS:

- Bruce, Delaney, Hickey, Longer, Savage, Shenton will be or are definitely GOOD.... Longer will probably be traded off next year, and ruckmen with some experience attract lots of interest
- Roberton. We've seen him play well, and this year with an ankle. Injury will determine his worth, I'd say.
- Weller will make a good tagger

Billings, Dunstan, Acres, Webster, White, pick 1 2014 WILL BE GUNS

Markworth, Newnes, Murdoch, Templeton, Holmes COULD BE GUNS (Newnes most underrated player on our list)

Saunders, Pierce, Lee, Minchington, Wright, Ross JURY OUT to date

pick 21 2014, pick 22 2014, pick 41 2014 COULD BE GUNS, GOOD, OR RUBBISH. I agree with the idea that if we get this draft right, we could well have ourselves 3 GUNS and 1 GOOD player.

We are certainly building.

Any rise in output from Siposs, Lee, Markworth, Holmes and Ross in 2015 will have us a year ahead of the scheduled rise.

I'm bullish. There's a good chunk of kids with possibilities to be really productive for us very very soon.

Compare this to the Lyon era recruiting and we've turned things around in 3-4 drafts, including, hopefully, this one.


The Peake, Polo, Ledger, Eddy, Fiora decisions were awful. Lovett just a bit of bad luck. Walsh, I can live with that as a speculative choice.

The Lyon era picks reminded me of the Watson era: Tony Francis and Damian Monkhorst; turf Nicky Winmar.

[groupie1]

About the Armitage trade for pick 12 from Richmond. I'd have made that trade.

[saintspremiers]

About the Armitage trade for pick 12 from Richmond. I'd have made that trade.

I wouldn't.

Armo is a solid B grader that is part of our engine room. With no Lenny had we lost Armo it would've been a total shambles for several years.

[bergholt]

Billings, Dunstan, Acres, Webster, White, pick 1 2014 WILL BE GUNS

What do you see in Webster that I don't? I mean, he's played some solid games - no blockbusters - but you're confident that he'll be a gun. Personally I just haven't seen it from him yet. What gives you that confidence?

[groupie1]

I see a Hudghton-esque level of technical skill as a defender. A few things he did during the year. One was, from a position behind his opponent, he squeezed passed him to get side on and reached a fist out across the opponent to put it out of bounds, diving to reach it. He's nimble. Do you get what I mean when I say Hudghton-esque defensive skills? He has a bag of tricks and gets better all the time. He also has the usual defenders tool kit: discipline, focus, poise, knows how to get ball side. Plus, a beautiful kick of the ball. Extremely high-quality footballer; but he is the type to go unnoticed for a long time, I understand why people aren't seeing it. (Of course, I could be wrong; but he is one I think that stood out to me this year). Him and Newnes, in my view, are already 'arrived' footballers. Does anyone else share my view? I'd be crurious what others think. I should start a thread on this.

[groupie1]

Above about Armitage... yeah, it'd have been short term pain. But he's 26, and has currency. If we're building for a future, he could well be approaching 30 by the time we get there. I'd also like to have traded Sam Gilbert.

[bergholt]

I see a Hudghton-esque level of technical skill as a defender. A few things he did during the year. One was, from a position behind his opponent, he squeezed passed him to get side on and reached a fist out across the opponent to put it out of bounds, diving to reach it. He's nimble. Do you get what I mean when I say Hudghton-esque defensive skills?

I'd love to see Hudghton-esque defensive skills in him! I understand what you're talking about, Maxie was always the best spoiler in the comp thanks to his closing speed and agility. So despite being undersized he could stop a lot of guys. (Except Neitz.) I haven't seen that in Webster as yet but here's hoping. Doesn't that mean he's a specialist half-back though? We need more mids if anything.

[plugger66]

Let's be positive about the Pelchen INS:

- Bruce, Delaney, Hickey, Longer, Savage, Shenton will be or are definitely GOOD.... Longer will probably be traded off next year, and ruckmen with some experience attract lots of interest
- Roberton. We've seen him play well, and this year with an ankle. Injury will determine his worth, I'd say.
- Weller will make a good tagger

Billings, Dunstan, Acres, Webster, White, pick 1 2014 WILL BE GUNS

Markworth, Newnes, Murdoch, Templeton, Holmes COULD BE GUNS (Newnes most underrated player on our list)

Saunders, Pierce, Lee, Minchington, Wright, Ross JURY OUT to date

pick 21 2014, pick 22 2014, pick 41 2014 COULD BE GUNS, GOOD, OR RUBBISH. I agree with the idea that if we get this draft right, we could well have ourselves 3 GUNS and 1 GOOD player.

We are certainly building.

Any rise in output from Siposs, Lee, Markworth, Holmes and Ross in 2015 will have us a year ahead of the scheduled rise.

I'm bullish. There's a good chunk of kids with possibilities to be really productive for us very very soon.

Compare this to the Lyon era recruiting and we've turned things around in 3-4 drafts, including, hopefully, this one.


The Peake, Polo, Ledger, Eddy, Fiora decisions were awful. Lovett just a bit of bad luck. Walsh, I can live with that as a speculative choice.

The Lyon era picks reminded me of the Watson era: Tony Francis and Damian Monkhorst; turf Nicky Winmar.

You do realise the poor recruiting started in about 2004. You also need to realise the SC was maxed out and we did get Ray, Schneider, Dempster, King and MG as well as hacks in the RL era. And apart from the Lovett pick, which you said you could live with the others cost bugger all apart from a spot on the list. Our recruiting was that poor I think RL thought we may as well get ordinary players from other clubs instead of ordinary players who hadn't even played AFL footy. We lacked resources for years.

[satchmo]

I see a Hudghton-esque level of technical skill as a defender. A few things he did during the year. One was, from a position behind his opponent, he squeezed passed him to get side on and reached a fist out across the opponent to put it out of bounds, diving to reach it. He's nimble. Do you get what I mean when I say Hudghton-esque defensive skills?

I'd love to see Hudghton-esque defensive skills in him! I understand what you're talking about, Maxie was always the best spoiler in the comp thanks to his closing speed and agility. So despite being undersized he could stop a lot of guys. (Except Neitz.) I haven't seen that in Webster as yet but here's hoping. Doesn't that mean he's a specialist half-back though? We need more mids if anything.

Don't know about the Hudghton comparison, But there's something about Webster that I very much like. I think he might turn out to be very good.

[Dis Believer]

I see a Hudghton-esque level of technical skill as a defender. A few things he did during the year. One was, from a position behind his opponent, he squeezed passed him to get side on and reached a fist out across the opponent to put it out of bounds, diving to reach it. He's nimble. Do you get what I mean when I say Hudghton-esque defensive skills? He has a bag of tricks and gets better all the time. He also has the usual defenders tool kit: discipline, focus, poise, knows how to get ball side. Plus, a beautiful kick of the ball. Extremely high-quality footballer; but he is the type to go unnoticed for a long time, I understand why people aren't seeing it. (Of course, I could be wrong; but he is one I think that stood out to me this year). Him and Newnes, in my view, are already 'arrived' footballers. Does anyone else share my view? I'd be crurious what others think. I should start a thread on this.

Agree with this. I like what I se of Webster a LOT ! The kid is fast, is a great kick, and as hard as a cat's head. The speed is the Hudghton thing. The ability to close down space in a hurry and split a contest. It doesn't get noticed at the moment because in a crap team that gets belted it makes no difference, but as the team improves and those moments become the difference in a close game he will start to get noticed more often. He wins one on one and uses it well and has leg speed, he will end up as an outside mid that can win their own ball (think a taller version of Joey).

[Scollop]

Let's be positive about the Pelchen INS:

- Bruce, Delaney, Hickey, Longer, Savage, Shenton will be or are definitely GOOD.... Longer will probably be traded off next year, and ruckmen with some experience attract lots of interest
- Roberton. We've seen him play well, and this year with an ankle. Injury will determine his worth, I'd say.
- Weller will make a good tagger

Billings, Dunstan, Acres, Webster, White, pick 1 2014 WILL BE GUNS

Markworth, Newnes, Murdoch, Templeton, Holmes COULD BE GUNS (Newnes most underrated player on our list)

Saunders, Pierce, Lee, Minchington, Wright, Ross JURY OUT to date

pick 21 2014, pick 22 2014, pick 41 2014 COULD BE GUNS, GOOD, OR RUBBISH. I agree with the idea that if we get this draft right, we could well have ourselves 3 GUNS and 1 GOOD player.

JURY is OUT on Pelchen for a few years yet.

I think in 2013 the recruiting and drafting was very good, but 2011 was poor imo, and 2012 was average to poor. You don't have to be einstein wehn you finish bottom 4 in consecutive years.

We have traded our midfield stars and lost retiring midfielders. Instead of trying to cement a new group from the time he arrived he was hellbent on looking for the next star to replace Roo and the next Forward/ruck to replace Kosi.

The Lee and Hickey INS were the dubious decisions and I reckon Pelican has not focussed enough on replacing our mids.

[gringo]

I see a Hudghton-esque level of technical skill as a defender. A few things he did during the year. One was, from a position behind his opponent, he squeezed passed him to get side on and reached a fist out across the opponent to put it out of bounds, diving to reach it. He's nimble. Do you get what I mean when I say Hudghton-esque defensive skills? He has a bag of tricks and gets better all the time. He also has the usual defenders tool kit: discipline, focus, poise, knows how to get ball side. Plus, a beautiful kick of the ball. Extremely high-quality footballer; but he is the type to go unnoticed for a long time, I understand why people aren't seeing it. (Of course, I could be wrong; but he is one I think that stood out to me this year). Him and Newnes, in my view, are already 'arrived' footballers. Does anyone else share my view? I'd be crurious what others think. I should start a thread on this.

Agree with this. I like what I se of Webster a LOT ! The kid is fast, is a great kick, and as hard as a cat's head. The speed is the Hudghton thing. The ability to close down space in a hurry and split a contest. It doesn't get noticed at the moment because in a crap team that gets belted it makes no difference, but as the team improves and those moments become the difference in a close game he will start to get noticed more often. He wins one on one and uses it well and has leg speed, he will end up as an outside mid that can win their own ball (think a taller version of Joey).

I didn't see why they were hyping him up until one night at the dome and he had about 5 repeat efforts at a loose ball and looked manic. He looks as if he hates to lose. He's no certainty but he has some really good traits.

[Con Gorozidis]

Love J Web. Makes a few clangers but fast, deadly left boot, good in the air, agile on the ground and tough as nuts. Could end up a gun.

[dragit]

Let's be positive about the Pelchen INS:

- Bruce, Delaney, Hickey, Longer, Savage, Shenton will be or are definitely GOOD.... Longer will probably be traded off next year, and ruckmen with some experience attract lots of interest
- Roberton. We've seen him play well, and this year with an ankle. Injury will determine his worth, I'd say.
- Weller will make a good tagger

Billings, Dunstan, Acres, Webster, White, pick 1 2014 WILL BE GUNS

Markworth, Newnes, Murdoch, Templeton, Holmes COULD BE GUNS (Newnes most underrated player on our list)

Saunders, Pierce, Lee, Minchington, Wright, Ross JURY OUT to date

pick 21 2014, pick 22 2014, pick 41 2014 COULD BE GUNS, GOOD, OR RUBBISH. I agree with the idea that if we get this draft right, we could well have ourselves 3 GUNS and 1 GOOD player.

JURY is OUT on Pelchen for a few years yet.

I think in 2013 the recruiting and drafting was very good, but 2011 was poor imo, and 2012 was average to poor. You don't have to be einstein wehn you finish bottom 4 in consecutive years.

We have traded our midfield stars and lost retiring midfielders. Instead of trying to cement a new group from the time he arrived he was hellbent on looking for the next star to replace Roo and the next Forward/ruck to replace Kosi.

The Lee and Hickey INS were the dubious decisions and I reckon Pelican has not focussed enough on replacing our mids.

Why was 2011 poor?
Our first pick was 20 which we obviously downgraded to 25, but our first 3 picks of Ross, Markworth & Webster @ 42 were pretty decent... I don't think there's a whole heap of stars that we overlooked?

Not ideal having your first pick @ 20 in a compromised draft, after finishing 7th.

[saintsRrising]

JURY is OUT on Pelchen for a few years yet.

I think in 2013 the recruiting and drafting was very good, but 2011 was poor imo, and 2012 was average to poor. You don't have to be einstein wehn you finish bottom 4 in consecutive years.

.

Though a factor here is that Pelchen was brought in to improve all aspects of list management ....and this included the recruiting team.

While some posters indicate that Pelchen picked this player, or made that trade etc...the end result is all due to a recruiting team. Pelchen was the leader, but as on the football field, if your off-field team is week, you will not get optimal results.


When Pelchen started the recruiting team was small and the AFL's worst. So hardly surprising that his first draft with us was not his best with us, though it was not bad by any means. we did not have the right team to adequately research and value players then. I mean can you make the AFL's best picks (relative to what picks you have) when you do not have an adequate recruiting team? Should be expected to?

He has built the team now, and put systems in place that we can now make well judged picks.................and also it mean that he is no longer required. That was Pelchen's real value.

Some try and trumpet how good the Hawks recruiting man was when Pelchen was there, and has been since Pelchen's departure....but I instead see it as as to his credit, for the reason I just mentioned above.

[Con Gorozidis]

I think 2011 we actually did very well in the circumstances.

2008,9,10 on the other hand were utterly horrendous. This is why we are bottom right now. Look no further. If this list of battlers doesnt want to make you weep in your cornflakes nothing will. WARNING if you are depressed. Look away now. This will make things worse.

2008:

Rhys Stanley (Gone)

Farren Ray (Not long to go)

Robert Eddy (Gone)

Andrew McQualter (Gone)

Tom Lynch (Gone)

Nick Heyne (Gone)

Alistair Smith (Gone)

Paul Cahill (Gone)

Colm Begley (Gone)

2009:

Nick Winmar (Gone)

Jesse Smith (Gone)

Adam Pattison (Gone)

Will Johnson (Gone)

Zac Dawson (Gone)

Luke Miles (Gone)

Andrew Lovett (Gone)

Brett Peake (Gone)

2010:

Arryn Siposs (Going?)

Tom Simpkin (Going?)

Jamie Cripps (Gone)

Sam Crocker (Gone)

Tom Ledger (Gone)

Ryan Gamble (Gone)

Dean Polo (Gone)

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/f ... 6980866631

[Saints43]

That is a hindsight comment. Hodge was known to be a likely star. Sam was not.

With Sam you are looking at what he became, rather than what he was back then.

Pick 36 in 2001. It was 2005 when he started to hit his straps.

We could well have a Sam now, and not know it. Dunstan could be very very good. Acres could be anything. Ross may be on slow burn...

And, I would reckon Sam Mitchell improved more than any other footballer I've seen. The amount of work he must have done would be incredible. He was always an extractor but seemed incredibly slow, one sided and couldn't kick over a jam tin.

Look at the player he became. Unrecognisable.