Is Pelchen sticking around?

[stinger]

I like Finnis but think he's the AFL sanctioned man. Pelchen's plan isn't one that would have sat with the guys who want quick financial results. A plan that has an aim to be good along way off in the future is an extremely hard sell to someone put in place to make us financially viable while we are on an AFL lifeline. I hope like hell we don't start trying to get every half good player on huge money for short term mediocrity.

that would be a real worry

[Con Gorozidis]

It is a really difficult one. Look at the Eagles. They went down for a couple of years and then rebounded hard but now they are kind of stuck in the middle.

Getting the balance right between medium term and long term gain is hard. Especially when there are financial losses associated with being down the bottom.

[FQF]

It is a really difficult one. Look at the Eagles. They went down for a couple of years and then rebounded hard but now they are kind of stuck in the middle.

Getting the balance right between medium term and long term gain is hard. Especially when there are financial losses associated with being down the bottom.

The Eagles are under performing in my view. They probably needed two more A grade midfielders to mix it with the best, but they were MIA for trade week - if I was an Eagles fan I would be ropable.

Probably missed the boat now with Cox and Glass gone.

[stinger]

Mmmm
Muffins.
Bit of tomato paste, some cheese, few slabs of ham.....

i like muffins....

[stinger]

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/w ... 7097795697


'Coach Alan Richardson has made quite an impression on his young players and is widely respected across the league for his nurtured coaching methods. He looks a great fit.

But if the Saints think they are suddenly better than they are and try to hurry things up a little, one thing is guaranteed. They will spike in the short term only for the bottom to fall out again. You don’t make the icing before you bake the cake.

After all, this is a club that had the worst drafting record in the league between 2006-10 and is still paying the price.

Pelchen oversaw decisions to trade Ben McEvoy for Luke Dunstan and Shane Savage last year and Rhys Stanley for No. 21 this year. Not the decisions of a club pushing for finals.

We thought the unrest at Seaford had ended, but this was another scalp in a ruthless spring.

Hardly ideal five weeks out from the draft, for a club whose future depends on it"



....interesting comments.....

[matrix]

isnt this link and quote already posted somewhere
i remember the cake bit

[St Igmata]

Best thing that cu=ould gave happened is Pelchen gone.
He is more about himself than the list.. every move needs to be a masterstroke that should have his fingerprints all over it.
Common sense and basic solid recruiting and development are key.
Nothing else.
No silver bullets.

[SainterK]

Took Ellis over Pendles, Dowler over I'm not sure, Thorp over Selwood.

Wasn't behind recruiting buddy.

Had nothing to do with Burgoyne, Hale, Gibson, Dew, Lake etc etc

[dragit]

Took Ellis over Pendles, Dowler over I'm not sure, Thorp over Selwood.

Wasn't behind recruiting buddy.

Had nothing to do with Burgoyne, Hale, Gibson, Dew, Lake etc etc

Did Hawthorn have one person making all of the draft calls?

Did we too?

I don't think you can realistically say "he took" any players. He's obviously formulated a strategy, but all clubs have an entire recruiting team for a reason…

I'm looking forward to the end of blaming Ross Lyon & Chris Pelchen for decisions that are made by an entire department.

[SainterK]

We were linked to all three players during his tenure with us, I don't think it's a stretch to say he liked them.

As for the imports to hawthorn, I know they weren't anything to do with him.

[dragit]

We were linked to all three players during his tenure with us, I don't think it's a stretch to say he liked them.

As for the imports to hawthorn, I know they weren't anything to do with him.

Ellis, Dowler & Thorp?

We didn't even rookie one of them though?

I don't really know who was responsible for which draft picks Hawthorn used but it sounds like people are suggesting that Clarkson was responsible for all the good recruiting and Pelchen to blame for all the misses they had… that would be incredible.

[The Redeemer]

Took Ellis over Pendles, Dowler over I'm not sure, Thorp over Selwood.

Wasn't behind recruiting buddy.

Had nothing to do with Burgoyne, Hale, Gibson, Dew, Lake etc etc

Did Hawthorn have one person making all of the draft calls?

Did we too?

I don't think you can realistically say "he took" any players. He's obviously formulated a strategy, but all clubs have an entire recruiting team for a reason…

I'm looking forward to the end of blaming Ross Lyon & Chris Pelchen for decisions that are made by an entire department.

I blame jesus for my premature baldness

[satchmo]

I'm looking forward to the end of blaming Ross Lyon & Chris Pelchen for decisions that are made by an entire department.

Yes. On to Richo now.

[SainterK]

We were linked to all three players during his tenure with us, I don't think it's a stretch to say he liked them.

As for the imports to hawthorn, I know they weren't anything to do with him.

Ellis, Dowler & Thorp?

We didn't even rookie one of them though?

I don't really know who was responsible for which draft picks Hawthorn used but it sounds like people are suggesting that Clarkson was responsible for all the good recruiting and Pelchen to blame for all the misses they had… that would be incredible.

Graham Wright was behind recruiting Burgoyne, Hale, Gunston, Gibson etc.

Definitely selected Dowler at #6, and invited him to train with us...can link an article.

Definitely took responsibility for Thorp, again can link.

Ellis not sure, but was one of the 22 left footers.

[dragit]

We were linked to all three players during his tenure with us, I don't think it's a stretch to say he liked them.

As for the imports to hawthorn, I know they weren't anything to do with him.

Ellis, Dowler & Thorp?

We didn't even rookie one of them though?

I don't really know who was responsible for which draft picks Hawthorn used but it sounds like people are suggesting that Clarkson was responsible for all the good recruiting and Pelchen to blame for all the misses they had… that would be incredible.

Graham Wright was behind recruiting Burgoyne, Hale, Gunston, Gibson etc.

Definitely selected Dowler at #6, and invited him to train with us...can link an article.

Definitely took responsibility for Thorp, again can link.

Ellis not sure, but was one of the 22 left footers.

Here's a good in depth article which highlights that a 6 man team made up Hawthorn's recruiting, also shows that Pelchen drafted Burgoyne originally at Port.

http://www.hawkheadquarters.com/article ... cleid=2129
Hawks' strategy for D (draft) day

Written by: Emma Quayle
The Age
3/12/2005


Hawthorn left nothing to chance when dispensing of its nest of early draft selections, Emma Quayle writes

At 8AM last Saturday, Hawthorn's draft day team met for breakfast at a Middle Park cafe.

Less than five hours later, the same six men stood around the barbecue in coach Alastair Clarkson's backyard, welcoming the fresh pieces of footballing meat they had just delivered their club. The Hawks did not dictate all of the terms last Saturday; their day did not start until Carlton and Collingwood had plucked their preferred players from the national draft pool.

But with four first-round selections and another at the start of the second, they had a bigger say than any club in how the draft unfolded.

Their day's work — the culmination of a season's scouting — lasted less than an hour. That said, the Hawks spent less time on their toes than might have been thought, their morning adhering almost entirely to a neat script.

THE LEAD-UP

Hawthorn started focusing on the draft three weeks ago, bringing its recruiters to Melbourne for a two-day seminar to review a list of 66 players.
From there, recruiting manager Gary Buckenara and Chris Pelchen, Hawthorn's player personnel and strategy manager, whittled the list back and into an order of what they called their "talent flow".

Long before then, the club had pinpointed the key qualities each prospective recruit had to possess.

They had identified that the top 25 players in this draft were good talent, and they aimed to squeeze all their picks in there, finishing trade week with five of the first 22 selections.

In the days before the draft, Pelchen and Buckenara refined their 25-player "talent flow" , along with the four strategies.

FRIDAY NIGHT

Pelchen closed his office door about 8pm, having made final checks on the two Beaus, Dowler and Muston. If the Hawks were to choose either the marking forward with the fractured pelvis or the tall onballer probably headed for a second knee reconstruction, they wanted to make educated calls. "All you can do is minimise your risk," Pelchen said. "In Beau Dowler's case, we've had contact on a weekly basis with his family and his medical staff … It would be fair to say we were probably more aware of where Beau's knee was than Beau himself."
SATURDAY MORNING

Pelchen filled the group — Buckenara, Clarkson, football manager Mark Evans, chief executive Ian Robson and recruiter Greg Boxall — in on Dowler and Muston, and Buckenara offered an update on what he suspected other clubs were thinking. Then they tucked in to breakfast.
THE TABLE

Pelchen and Buckenara would do the bulk of the work, with the rest of the team seated at the back table. "When you're picking at pick 70 in a draft, it does take more co-ordination because more and more players are getting called out," Pelchen said.
PICK THREE

The Hawks thought Murphy, Dale Thomas and Xavier Ellis the best three — it was the order that was in question. With Murphy and Thomas gone, Hawthorn switched to the "Ellis strategy". Buckenara hesitated before calling the Gippsland Power player's name, but only briefly. "It was just common courtesy," said Pelchen. "We just turned around and said to Alastair … 'Are you still happy for us to call Xavier's name out?' "
PICK SIX

The Hawks had only one player in mind at their next pick, Beau Dowler, come on down.
PICK 14

Four players were listed at pick 14, and the first of them had gone. Grant Birchall was next in line and available, along with one other; though the decision had been made, it had to be confirmed.
PICK 18

Ruckman Max Bailey was the only player in mind at pick 18.
PICK 22

Only two of the Hawks' top 21 remained when they reached their final pick (their father-son selection, Travis Tuck, aside). One was Beau Muston. Buckenara and Pelchen turned to the back table.
"That discussion was for me to confirm what we knew about Beau and his medical condition and have the CEO accept that and be under the knowledge that if we selected this player, there was a strong likelihood he wouldn't play next year," Pelchen said.

THE WASH-UP …

The Hawks' formal draft review will happen next week; by Monday this week, they had sifted through the players left over. They will head to the rookie draft with a much longer talent flow, and less specific strategy. "We have to wait our turn this time," Pelchen said.
For now, they are happy with what they've got. "I remember Port Adelaide in 2001, we got Shaun Burgoyne, Kane Cornes and Domenic Cassisi at pick 50," Pelchen said. "We came out of that draft thinking we'd done well, so you do have a feeling. I've got a good feeling coming out of this draft, too."


He's no genius, but singling out the mistakes he's made feels like sour grapes to me. You could easily knock up a huge list of drafting errors that Stephen Wells has made over the years including many early picks.

Our recruitment appears to have been better since Pelchen arrived, I'm sure there will be plenty of mistakes too.

[SainterK]

How's it sour grapes?

I've been saying it for 2 years.

I don't know why your trying to justify him, he's gone.

[dragit]

How's it sour grapes?

I've been saying it for 2 years.

I don't know why your trying to justify him, he's gone.

Granted you have never liked him so it isn't a new thing.

I don't think he's a villain or a hero, but I just find trying to discredit someone by cherry picking a few mistakes, which were decisions made by more than one person is disingenuous.

He's been part of plenty of bloopers, but he's also had a hand in some good things.


Here's another debunked

Pelchen said the club’s eye on Burgoyne, among others, had first been raised in a mid-year meeting with his manager Ben Williams and heated up considerably last week.

The Hawks’ young list and the preponderance of former Power staff members now at the club are thought to weigh heavily in Hawthorn’s favour as Burgoyne’s first-choice destination.

“We expressed our interest to (Williams) last week that if Shaun makes a move we’d be very happy to get him to Hawthorn and after the announcement yesterday I spoke to Ben again this morning,” Pelchen told AAP.

“We’re definitely interested in Shaun and we’d love to put forward our case.

“The previous relationships that are there, whether it be myself as one of the people who drafted him, (fitness coach) Andrew Russell or (senior coach) Alastair Clarkson, we’re hoping they are a positive.”

An aggressive drafting campaign over the past few seasons has give Hawthorn the league’s youngest list and Pelchen said they had little need or desire to add more youth this year.

This means their first three draft picks, Nos. 9, 25 and 41, are all open to trade.

“We’re open to trading away our draft picks,” Pelchen said.

“We’ve attacked the draft very aggressively over the last two-to-three years and we’ve got the youngest list in the competition … Shaun’s one of three-to-four players we’re having a look at.”

http://www.theroar.com.au/2009/09/16/po ... yne-trade/

[The OtherThommo]

Graham Wright was behind recruiting Burgoyne, Hale, Gunston, Gibson etc.

Definitely selected Dowler at #6, and invited him to train with us...can link an article.

Definitely took responsibility for Thorp, again can link.

Ellis not sure, but was one of the 22 left footers.

Here's a good in depth article which highlights that a 6 man team made up Hawthorn's recruiting, also shows that Pelchen drafted Burgoyne originally at Port.

http://www.hawkheadquarters.com/article ... cleid=2129
Hawks' strategy for D (draft) day

Written by: Emma Quayle
The Age
3/12/2005


Hawthorn left nothing to chance when dispensing of its nest of early draft selections, Emma Quayle writes

At 8AM last Saturday, Hawthorn's draft day team met for breakfast at a Middle Park cafe.

Less than five hours later, the same six men stood around the barbecue in coach Alastair Clarkson's backyard, welcoming the fresh pieces of footballing meat they had just delivered their club. The Hawks did not dictate all of the terms last Saturday; their day did not start until Carlton and Collingwood had plucked their preferred players from the national draft pool.

But with four first-round selections and another at the start of the second, they had a bigger say than any club in how the draft unfolded.

Their day's work — the culmination of a season's scouting — lasted less than an hour. That said, the Hawks spent less time on their toes than might have been thought, their morning adhering almost entirely to a neat script.

THE LEAD-UP

Hawthorn started focusing on the draft three weeks ago, bringing its recruiters to Melbourne for a two-day seminar to review a list of 66 players.
From there, recruiting manager Gary Buckenara and Chris Pelchen, Hawthorn's player personnel and strategy manager, whittled the list back and into an order of what they called their "talent flow".

Long before then, the club had pinpointed the key qualities each prospective recruit had to possess.

They had identified that the top 25 players in this draft were good talent, and they aimed to squeeze all their picks in there, finishing trade week with five of the first 22 selections.

In the days before the draft, Pelchen and Buckenara refined their 25-player "talent flow" , along with the four strategies.

FRIDAY NIGHT

Pelchen closed his office door about 8pm, having made final checks on the two Beaus, Dowler and Muston. If the Hawks were to choose either the marking forward with the fractured pelvis or the tall onballer probably headed for a second knee reconstruction, they wanted to make educated calls. "All you can do is minimise your risk," Pelchen said. "In Beau Dowler's case, we've had contact on a weekly basis with his family and his medical staff … It would be fair to say we were probably more aware of where Beau's knee was than Beau himself."
SATURDAY MORNING

Pelchen filled the group — Buckenara, Clarkson, football manager Mark Evans, chief executive Ian Robson and recruiter Greg Boxall — in on Dowler and Muston, and Buckenara offered an update on what he suspected other clubs were thinking. Then they tucked in to breakfast.
THE TABLE

Pelchen and Buckenara would do the bulk of the work, with the rest of the team seated at the back table. "When you're picking at pick 70 in a draft, it does take more co-ordination because more and more players are getting called out," Pelchen said.
PICK THREE

The Hawks thought Murphy, Dale Thomas and Xavier Ellis the best three — it was the order that was in question. With Murphy and Thomas gone, Hawthorn switched to the "Ellis strategy". Buckenara hesitated before calling the Gippsland Power player's name, but only briefly. "It was just common courtesy," said Pelchen. "We just turned around and said to Alastair … 'Are you still happy for us to call Xavier's name out?' "
PICK SIX

The Hawks had only one player in mind at their next pick, Beau Dowler, come on down.
PICK 14

Four players were listed at pick 14, and the first of them had gone. Grant Birchall was next in line and available, along with one other; though the decision had been made, it had to be confirmed.
PICK 18

Ruckman Max Bailey was the only player in mind at pick 18.
PICK 22

Only two of the Hawks' top 21 remained when they reached their final pick (their father-son selection, Travis Tuck, aside). One was Beau Muston. Buckenara and Pelchen turned to the back table.
"That discussion was for me to confirm what we knew about Beau and his medical condition and have the CEO accept that and be under the knowledge that if we selected this player, there was a strong likelihood he wouldn't play next year," Pelchen said.

THE WASH-UP …

The Hawks' formal draft review will happen next week; by Monday this week, they had sifted through the players left over. They will head to the rookie draft with a much longer talent flow, and less specific strategy. "We have to wait our turn this time," Pelchen said.
For now, they are happy with what they've got. "I remember Port Adelaide in 2001, we got Shaun Burgoyne, Kane Cornes and Domenic Cassisi at pick 50," Pelchen said. "We came out of that draft thinking we'd done well, so you do have a feeling. I've got a good feeling coming out of this draft, too."


He's no genius, but singling out the mistakes he's made feels like sour grapes to me. You could easily knock up a huge list of drafting errors that Stephen Wells has made over the years including many early picks.

Our recruitment appears to have been better since Pelchen arrived, I'm sure there will be plenty of mistakes too.[/quote]

Good get, D. People seem to be forgetting a coupla things;

1. The Dorks bottomed, went hard at the draft for a few years, became comfortable going hard at the draft had yielded enough talent to build around, and added accomplished players, in preference, thereafter.

2. And, this is the big one. The Dorks were fortunate that their rebuilding left them only needing to supplement, during the period of compromised drafts. For what?, 4-5 years it was impossible for established clubs to rebuild from the ground up - a dearth of early draft picks, flowing on to no chance to trade them. The Dorks were both smart and lucky. They did exactly as we did in the early naughties (went young), and snagged enough talent to be able to sustain them through the compromised draft period, by attracting older, established players who wanted a shot at success.

We were stiff in '09 and '10, but the ensuing period was all about directing the best of the young blokes to GCS and GWS. That's a major contributor to why there's been so little emergence from the mid-ranks and below into the upper echelon of performance in recent years. Port are the exception but, as I posted recently, there's a lot more to their resurgence than early draft picks.

We bottomed about 4 years too early to sustain us as the Dorks were able to sustain through the aberrant period of 2 new clubs joining.

[Wayne42]

The Pelican was good for the Saints, he probably didn't want to take orders on football matters from legal people or receive letters from them telling him
how it should be done.

[saintsRrising]

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/w ... 7097795697

Hardly ideal five weeks out from the draft, for a club whose future depends on it"



....interesting comments.....

5 weeks from the draft it will matter squat. We will have already ranked all the players, subject to any injury. So will not matter Pelchen departing now.

[saintsRrising]

We were linked to all three players during his tenure with us, I don't think it's a stretch to say he liked them.

As for the imports to hawthorn, I know they weren't anything to do with him.

So Pelchen is at fault for NOT picking up players that you have linked him to that you did not want???.

[saintsRrising]

How's it sour grapes?

I've been saying it for 2 years.

I don't know why your trying to justify him, he's gone.

Though its ok for you to justify him going? But not ok for anyone else to say some of the good things that happened?

Very few people in senior roles stay in the one position at the one club (or in the corporate world) for long these days.

When Pelchen arrived we needed someone to make some hard calls about our list.

And even if Pelchen made some bad calls at the Saints, and no one is perfect, it is undisputed fact that the drafting era before he joined the Saints was abysmal.

However while all the talk on Pelchen seems to be on list management, his position was actually Director of Football, and I would suspect that his going has a lot more to do with what Finnis wants DoF to do, rather that Pelchen's influence on our list management (whether you rate that as good or bad, and again I would suspect the Saints inner sanctum would have rated it as a positive.

Beveridge is already joining us. The recruiting department is fastly different than the rabble it was when Pelchen joined us. I would suspect that Pelchen's replacement will be quite different, as has been flagged.

[SainterK]

Of course its ok for me to have an opinion, I was having a convo with dragit who is also allowed to say what he wishes, I don't think he needs sticking up for...

[skeptic]

I'm a little disappointed by our inability to stick to a plan...

all this chopping, changing all the time with long-term strategies... their called long-term because they take a while to come into fruition whereas we are forever going down the garden path and changing direction.

[saintsRrising]

I'm a little disappointed by our inability to stick to a plan...

all this chopping, changing all the time with long-term strategies... their called long-term because they take a while to come into fruition whereas we are forever going down the garden path and changing direction.

Well hopefully the football blueprint will remain the same. List management wise Pelchen seemed to see eye to eye with his list management cohort at the club, and IMO the list management strategy is not why he has departed..

Mind you after this draft period the club has finished, the club will already have done a lot of the hard yards. One would assume that we will have an early pick again next year, and so the next part of the plan is to actually start landing some quality FAs. Not sure if they will go next draft, or the one after that. It may depend on how well Acres, Petracca and the other young'uns go in the 2015 Season.

Hopefully we already have a deal in principle with say Cameron. However actually landing QUALITY FA's is easier said than done.